The Nineteenth Byte

Nick T

00:09

Would a challenge to the effect of "create an assignment that sounds pointlessly onerous" be an acceptable question?

I'm endlessly fascinated/disgusted by questions on SO that are like "do X, but without Y (loops, conditionals, static variables)", which I assume must come from insane CS professors

like code-trolling but assignment-trolling

undergroundmonorail

@NickT I'm just one user, but I think "probably not". A challenge with answers that aren't code sounds pretty off-topic for this site.

I like the idea, but I don't think it would go over well here.

Geobits

I'd have to agree. It might be interesting, but with the debate over code trolling as it is, trolling without code probably wouldn't last at all.

Nick T

well the answers would need code that proves that it's solvable at all

Geobits

Hmm. I have my doubts, but why not write up an example question and post it to meta? You might get a better response from more people there.

Nick T

it would be a question that wants a question and answer as a result, with the answer rules-lawyering hard

I'll try to scrawl something down on meta

undergroundmonorail

00:27

I wonder if you could make some kind of game out of it, where you have answers with silly restrictions and other people write code that meets the restrictions? That could be fun but I can't think of a way to make it work in the SE format, and it still has the same problem as the original where the answers don't actually have code in them.

Doorknob

01:31

0

Q: Re-evaluating [tips] and tip-like questions

Currently, all tips questions on the main site are Community Wiki. Furthermore, there are not many other non-challenge questions on the main site. These types of questions are generally supressed on PPCG. This should change. The first point I'm going to attack is the fact that tips questions ar...

TheDoctor

02:06

Doorknob

@TheDoctor Ha, xkcd reference :D

TheDoctor

Yep.

Geobits

02:25

@Rusher I'm not sure if it needs to be said, but: If my pack is in the lead when your bounty expires, I don't want it. It's crushing the current competition, and I just want to make sure that my CW answer doesn't end up with a +200 bounty attached. Give it to whoever's next in line at the expiration.

ProgrammerDan

I'm hoping I can scrape some time to write a submission soon, @Geobits. Life/work suddenly got busy to the Nth, and I suddenly had no golfing time. Still don't. But maybe over the week/into the weekend I'll have some time. Your challenge is awesome!

Geobits

@ProgrammerDan Lol, your absence was noted. Do it whenever you have free time. The current bounty expires in a few days, but I'm not closing it down or anything.

ProgrammerDan

Yeah, bounty chasing is fun and all but I'm cool without it. I'd love to actually have a best solution though :P. Glad to hear you're not closing the challenge down any time too soon, that would be a damn shame.

Geobits

Nah, I don't see the point in closing it down. If someone decides to post an answer next year sometime, I'd probably run another one on the spot out of curiosity.

I will wait for a suitable amount of time before marking an accepted answer, though.

( or at least until something beats the CW pack :p )

ProgrammerDan

:D Sounds reasonable

mniip

11:50

Guys, I have almost all the things set up for king-of-the-hill contests

what do you expect from the web UI?

Geobits

12:37

@mniip Hard to say without knowing what it does exactly?

mniip

12:54

5

Q: Creating an official place to become a King of the Hill tester

So, king-of-the-hill is unique in that some people cannot test all of the submissions given, as they need to have all of the environments installed that users submit. We should make a place to become an "official" tester for KOTH challenges. To be a tester, one should be able to run a certain li...

discussion

Geobits

Well, I got that from seeing your earlier chat, but I'm still not sure what exactly your program does. I assume it's some sort of web host that can run KotH, but how does it work, how do we plugin challenges, etc. Without knowing more specifics, it's hard to say what you'd want in a UI. Maybe a meta post outlining how it works/interfaces would be the best way to get good feedback?

mniip

My current idea is that asker creates a new challenge in the system, uploads the tester's code, and then the asker can add answers,

and the system will run tester program with answers in an appropriate way

Geobits

Hmm. Is there the ability to do multi-run batches? For example, my current test program is run ten times to get a winner. I have a shell script doing it right now so I don't have to manually invoke it ten times.

Or could the script be uploaded as part of the tester program?

mniip

I guess you could wrap your tester program in a for i=1,10 loop

There's no fixed scoreboard format either, your tester program just outputs some text, which will be displayed in the UI

Rusher

Do you ever consider that projects that get any larger than a typical KotH program should be planned out before you start writing code?

Geobits

13:08

Ok, similar to what I was thinking. So I'd just wrap the whole thing in an additional Tourney class.

Rusher

Hah.. guess not. Straight to the details...

Geobits

Pfft. planning?

In a professional/serious setting, sure. For fun/side stuff, not so much.

Rusher

I personally have as much fun diagramming larger projects as I do coding smaller ones. In groups of 2-4 people, whiteboarding is really fun.

Geobits

Don't get me wrong, it's a Good Idea© for larger stuff, but it really depends on what you mean by "large" I guess.

TheDoctor

Hi guys. am spying on CR, shhhh!

@mniip have you given up on highlel?

mniip

13:21

No

I'm currently trying to figure out the best way to distribute code across multiple files

And at the same time trying to understand ModR/M+SIB+REX+VEX+all this stuff

@TheDoctor I have since rewrote pager a little and wrote lots of boilerplate code

TheDoctor

Such confuse

mniip

now also planning another pager rewrite, to be more efficient

TheDoctor

BTW, i am interested in this code:

mniip

Haven't I already linked you?

packages.gentoo.org/package/games-misc/doge

TheDoctor

No... i'll take a look

mniip

13:27

Hint: upstream source is in the ebuild

Rusher

@mniip Can the test program output html instead of just text?

mniip

It can output anything you want

Rusher

Give us a frame and we'll fill it.

mniip

it's not like the environment cares about it

TheDoctor

in The 2nd Monitor, 2 mins ago, by TheDoctor

I look at the keys because no text appears in the box in the monitor

SE needs to fix this chat

@SomeRandomCommunityModerator - ^^

Rusher

13:29

Ok since we're being extremely literal - will the environment be able to parse html?

mniip

why does it have to

oh, you want to permalink people to test results?

Rusher

No I think I am misunderstanding you so let me start over

Tester program outputs results that are "simply displayed in the window" right?

mniip

yes

Rusher

Let's take that word simply out

Geobits

Completely off-topic: popsci.com/article/technology/how-make-powdered-booze-home

Rusher

13:31

And let's make the window capable of containing and displaying HTML.

mniip

but why

Rusher

So the tester program can choose to output simple text or beautiful HTML

At no cost to your window

mniip

yeah yeah but

what use is rendition of the HTML to you?

Rusher

I can watch the trial as it runs?

mniip

uh

Rusher

13:33

I can beautify the results?

mniip

And the point of doing that is?

My original intention was that you could copy/paste the test results into your question

Rusher

Can you get to whatever point you are trying to make instead of just saying "why" over and over

mniip

But your idea does seem good too

TheDoctor

14:22

ls -l

undergroundmonorail

drwxr-xr-x 4 theDoctor users 4096 Mar 10 20:24 Downloads
drwxr-xr-x 3 theDoctor users 4096 Apr 22 08:31 disgusting-porn

TheDoctor

ls /usr/bin | grep l

undergroundmonorail

ls: cannot access /usr/bin: No such file or directory

TheDoctor

14:44

I have just proven that CR has spies on PCG

undergroundmonorail

:O

Rusher

Doorknob made it pretty clear that he swings both ways. This is no surprise.

4

Perhaps they can play on my Minecraft server when I get that set up...

mniip

15:05

And I thought I was gonna be the minecraft guy around here

TheDoctor

Rusher is a block of dirt, after all

mniip

I mean I have a server with tons of unused CPU time/RAM

Geobits

TheDoctor

@mniip mine shibe

mniip

no GPUs

mining's gonna be retarded

TheDoctor

15:10

Specs pls?

I can get a lot by using my netbook to mine!

CPUminer

mniip

i7-4770K, that's 8 cores @ 3.4+ GHz

16GiB RAM

TheDoctor

cool

mniip

2TB hdd, almost entirely empty

40Mbps uplink

Geobits

Sounds like you and me have basically the same system :)

Just suffering a much worse uplink (through Comcast) here :(

mniip

I can sometimes push more than 40Mbps, though, weird, isn't it

Geobits

15:14

I've got a 50dn,4up connection. Stupid asymmetrical "consumer" nonsense.

mniip

mine's symmetrical

I want an optic fiber though :(

Geobits

Not that I use much uplink often, but it's nice to have when you need it.

TheDoctor

And i get 3MBps

You should do something cool with it.

mniip

I do

TheDoctor

ln -sv /dev/mniip's_cpu /dev/theDoctor's_cpu

mniip

15:18

I seed some things over torrent and HTTP

(Mostly on saturdays, though, :) )

TheDoctor

any of u use tor?

mniip

I do, but not on a regular basis

TheDoctor

I am an onion

Geobits

Only for organizing my terrorist activities.

Wait... nvm.

mniip

@TheDoctor An exit node?

wait a second, how do you even are a node? Do you have a static/public IP?

TheDoctor

15:22

I can't run a node because my internet is too slow

-2

Q: Shortest interpreter for any language

This is pretty simple. Write an interpreter for any language in any language. Rules Shortest one wins. No "blank interpreters". (like ) No interpreters for joke languages. (e.g. HQ9+ and HQ9++)

code-golf

^^ cv-pls

this is what we should do to CR

mniip

Damn. I spilled water over the touchpad and it turned into a termenvox

The cursor jiggles around when I hover over the touchpad

TheDoctor

Darn

I hate my netbook because the battery falls out every so often

Geobits

16:05

I think that's what tape is for :p

mniip

Do they have tape on gallifrey?

Geobits

I'm assuming they've evolved to the point of being able to adhere two objects together somehow.

Just slap a deadlock seal on it.

mniip

I usually just create a mutex in one of the objects, and lock it from the context of the other

Geobits

So that's what the little lock icon near the battery is. I always thought it was some sort of physical lock.

mniip

16:22

oh that

yeah, there's a switch to lock/unlock the battery's mutex from the context of the laptop

Geobits

If that's the case, he probably just needs to update his firmware.

mniip

Assuming it was patched in the latest version

@TheDoctor You should file a bug in the whatever library your battery uses

TheDoctor

17:35

The (dead)lock switch is loose

Rusher

19:41

What is smaller - log(n) * log(n) or n?

Nvm I have a thing called a calculator

mniip

@Rusher wolframalpha.com/input/?i=-log%5E2(x)+and+x

on positive axis n is bigger

Rusher

Can you guys downvote this? stackoverflow.com/q/23227084/3224483

He stole the code and claimed he wrote it. Stole it from stackoverflow.com/a/4027871/3224483

ProgrammerDan

I upvoted your answer and downvoted the question :P

unattributed stealing makes sad llama sad.

Rusher

I honestly don't deserve upvotes because I didn't really answer the question

I made one TINY improvement that shaved a few milliseconds

Also, welcome back ProgrammerDan!

ProgrammerDan

19:56

Meh, I liked your answer, and voting is totally arbitrary :P

Thanks! I was briefly inaccessible/super busy

undergroundmonorail

20:44

I always feel like I'm being a prick when I explain why someone's question isn't a good feel for the site.

Like, dammit, this person discovered this site, tried to participate, and got downvoted immediately and was told why their question was terrible in like 3 minutes

That can't be a nice feeling

It has to be done I guess, and on one hand I feel good that I'm actively working to improve the quality of the site at least a bit

but maybe i'm a prick. i don't know

Doorknob

@Rusher Yep, I'm our Unofficial Designated CG/CR War Spy of Stealthy Spying, Other Spying On CR Related Things, and Many Generic Actions Related to War

... I really need a shorter title

undergroundmonorail

@Doorknob you need to golf your title

Doorknob

Heh

@undergroundmonorail Example? Typically this is just "look, a site! I'm going to post some random thing on it without bothering to read anything about them or find out even the most basic of rules! wheee"

undergroundmonorail

-1

Q: Return nth letter from a file

Use using only standard libraries of the programming, write the program to do the following: Program's input are a text file and an arbitrary positive integer n. Program returns nth letter from a text file if it exists, else outputs nothing. E.g. If a text file demo contains the string "3.141...

string

on one hand? yes, they posted a random thing on it without bothering to figure out how the site works

on the other hand, they tried and were shot down immediately

which isn't fun

Doorknob

But that's good. It maintains high quality (which has been plummeting into nothingness recently...)

undergroundmonorail

20:49

i know

i guess my problem is that i care about human emotions. i just have to fix that and i'll be the perfect PPCG community member :P

ProgrammerDan

Human emotions online are similar to forum arguments

... usually meaningless :-/

They are mutable, fake-able, and generally both

but, it's good you have a soul

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher Oh, I just got this.

haha

Doorknob

Oooh lol just realized the pun there. I'm such a doorknob... :P

Rusher

I'm not actually sure which part you just got lol.

undergroundmonorail

@Rusher Are there two

parts to get

oh

Rusher

20:55

There should have been three

undergroundmonorail

oh man

as far as i was aware the joke went as deep as "you can get a cool hinge for your door that lets it open in both directions. that door would presumably have a handle on it"

and no deeper

handle == 'knob', if you will

Rusher

@Doorknob UDCWSoSSOSOCRTaMGARtW

Doorknob

@Rusher Brilliant!

Rusher

I wasn't sure if CG and CR resolved to a single letter in the new acronym. We'd have to ask Peter Taylor on that

Doorknob

C[G/R]

TheDoctor

21:41

C{G,R}

Everyone on the Second Monitor left, so i've come back.

Rusher

23:08

I think it's time for more Doomsday

TheDoctor

Again??

Rusher

Sure. World needs a reboot

I'm sure I can make Code Golf reboot the world using some strange algorithm that I haven't googled yet

How about this - since zombies took over the last one, aliens just blew up the world and now you have to put it back together.

I wish we had a list of algorithms that have not had a challenge constructed around them yet

TheDoctor

How would you accomplish that?

Rusher

Accomplish what?

TheDoctor

reassemble the earth

Rusher

23:21

Are you asking how I would reassemble the earth? That is an impossible task.

TheDoctor

In the wonderful world of programming

Rusher

We may be slowly approaching the question you really meant to ask, but until then I remain confused

TheDoctor

Where anything's possible, if it's properly golfed

Rusher

Did you mean "What will the challenge be for putting the earth back together" or "What will the solution be"?

TheDoctor

What will the challenge be for putting the earth back together

Rusher

23:24

Not sure yet. I'm looking for a good problem on Google

I'm also trying to search an see if MinMax flow has been done, Pathing, and some others

TheDoctor

Plot a course thru the wrechage of the earth

Rusher

Has clustering been done?

TheDoctor

?

Rusher

If I give you a set of points like (X, Y) and give you a bullet that has a diameter of 2 centimeters, where would you fire the bullet in order to hit the most points?

That is an example of clustering

TheDoctor

IDK, sounds cool

Rusher

23:29

I don't see one so I think I'll take that

Geobits

23:42

It seems the golfiest way to solve your bullet cluster would be a naive O(n^2) distance search, but I may be wrong.

Surely not the most performant, though.

Rusher

@Geobits On a plane with real numbers? That's impossible. n would be incredibly large...

For example, if I put points at (0,0) and (0,1) do you have any idea how long it would take you to brute force your way to figuring out that (0, 0.5) is the place to shoot?

Geobits

Find min/max x/y for bullets, take it in discrete steps. Once you find the optimal on that step, decrease the size of the steps, etc.

But my initial thought was not n representing the bounds of the area. It was n bullets.

Once you find the bullet with the most nearest neighbors, you know it's somewhere close by, switch to above method.

Rusher

Oh I was thinking single bullet, many targets, hit the most targets with your single bullet

Geobits

Odds are, unless there are literally millions of points to check, it won't matter if you're off by a certain amount. At a certain threshold, you'll be hitting the same amount of points if you move by 0.001, etc.

Yea, i meant n targets, not bullets.

Rusher

Oh... I forgot about the tolerance of clustering algorithms

Scrap that then. Any submission that solved it perfectly would run forever, and I don't want to play judge of which golfed answer was accurate "enough"

Geobits

23:49

Not to say it wouldn't work as a challenge, just maybe with some tweaks.

Rusher

How about a discrete grid then. Using only integers

You can't shoot at like (0, 0.5) for example

Geobits

That would surely make it easier to confirm an optimal answer, but as I said, expect the naive O(N^2).

I can't see how you'd get any creative methods, but you might get some interestingly golfed ones.

Rusher

I know what I want to do now.

What do you think a good time is for solving a challenge?

A trivial one might take 30 seconds, whereas a ridiculously hard one might take 8 hours

What is that sweet spot? That spot that makes you want to dive right in and take the challenge?

Geobits

Honestly? Depends on how busy I am at work ;)

Depends on how interesting it is, really. If it's going to take more than 30 minutes or so, it would have to be something I'm really interested in doing, or something that just "caught my eye" for some reason or another.

I don't know that I consider the time it would take (much) before jumping in.

Transcript for