The Nineteenth Byte

Neil

00:11

@lyxal look outside? you'd need windows for that... oh.

lyxal

Yeah

You can see the predicament now :p

New Posts

00:46

0

Q: Rounding a range

You have a line with two endpoints a and b (0 ≤ a < b) on a 1D space. When a or b has a fractional value, you want to round it to an integer. One way to do this is to round a and b each to its nearest integer, but this has a problem that the length of the rounded range (L) can vary while b - a st...

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Unshuffle my poker chips, Split given integer into a given number of integers, each within given bounds

Aiden Chow

01:28

:( just got -9% on a test cuz i did mental math and didnt write down some of the work

lyxal

Negative nine percent?

Or a deduction of 9%?

Aiden Chow

deduction 9%

lyxal

Ah

Aiden Chow

got 91% on the test

lyxal

Well that isn't as big of a yikes as getting -9% overall but still

yikes

Aiden Chow

01:30

well it does amount to quite a bit cuz tests are 75% of the grade in this class

lyxal

But it's better than doing so poorly that you just get marks taken away from other assignments :p

emanresu A

@lyxal CMC

lyxal

On a different note: who the frick is Jack and why does he have so many pots?

Like I'll be playing poker and it's all about his pots being won

Ffs Jack why couldn't you let Bob or Mary offer their pots?

caird coinheringaahing

01:46

@lyxal He got lucky and hit the Jack pot jackpot

Radvylf Programs

I made a cool thing to help me debug rSNBATWPL:

emanresu A

?

Radvylf Programs

It parses the program and draws it as a tree, showing roughly how the AST looks

emanresu A

What's rSNBATWPL tho?

Radvylf Programs

It'a s secret

emanresu A

01:48

I don't see why you and pxeger are so scared to share this sort of stuff

Radvylf Programs

This isn't a golfing language

I'm just too lazy to bother explaining it lol

And I want it to hit people all at once in the same way a piano from a fourth story window does

Aiden Chow

could u at least tell us what does it stand for

:)

Radvylf Programs

No, the name is so verbose it would spoil everything :p

But I will reveal three of the words: should, to, and programming

emanresu A

reverse SNAKES, NOT BASKETBALL ATHLETES, THE WORLD PEELS LEMONS

really Should need big apples to write programming languages

really Should not be annoying to write programming language

How close am I?

Radvylf Programs

You're only a few words off

Aiden Chow

01:52

or maybe "really Should Not Be Able To Work Programming Language"

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms Is write correct?

Radvylf Programs

Yep

@AidenChow Two verbs and a noun (and a pluralization) away

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms Languages?

Radvylf Programs

Possibly

emanresu A

Itt has to be lol

Radvylf Programs

01:53

~~shoulds™~~

emanresu A

Radvylf should not be allowed to write programming languages

Gotcha!

Radvylf Programs

Yep!

emanresu A

That doesn't really reveal anything lol

Aiden Chow

^

Radvylf Programs

I think that at least hints at what sort of language this will be, tone-wise at least :p

Aiden Chow

01:55

uhh imperative programming ??

emanresu A

Prefix/infix cursedness?

Aiden Chow

or declarative programming ???

Radvylf Programs

Declarative is just imperative with sprinkles

Aiden Chow

huh i thought they were totally opposites

user

Yeah I don't see how declarative is just imperative with sprinkles

Unless you mean that when you compile it it all turns into assembly, which is imperative (?), but then you'd be calling the entire language "sprinkles"

hyper-neutrino

02:04

i don't even know what either of those mean tbh

Radvylf Programs

Declarative is just marketing speak for "imperative but everything sucks"

user

???

Radvylf Programs

What is your definition of declarative? I feel that we're not using it to mean the same thing.

user

> Many languages that apply this style attempt to minimize or eliminate side effects by describing what the program must accomplish in terms of the problem domain, rather than describe how to accomplish it as a sequence of the programming language primitives[2] (the how being left up to the language's implementation). This is in contrast with imperative programming, which implements algorithms in explicit steps.

Radvylf Programs

Yeah. It's just a vague way of describing how abstract a language is using a binary marketing term

user

02:05

Basically what the Wikipedia page says

emanresu A

Hm, regex = declarative I guess lol

user

Prolog would be an example

Radvylf Programs

"Declarative" is a bad thing IMO. A purely declarative language would be literal hell.

@user That's its own paradigm though, I don't think "logic paradigm" falls under "declarative"

The problems I have with things like SQL and the things that are supposedly good about "declarative" are pretty similar

user

@RadvylfPrograms I agree, Prolog is very difficult to program in

hyper-neutrino

huh I wonder if I still remember how to code in Python fluently given that it's been like at least a month or two since i've touched it and i've been using basically exclusively JS

user

02:08

Prolog is exactly what I would think of when someone says "declarative"

emanresu A

I mostly use copilot for python

user

You give it some rules and it just does stuff based on that

emanresu A

Regex is declarative, and really powerful because of its simplicity

user

"simplicity" :P

emanresu A

Doesn't mean it's not abused

@user I consider being able to type something representing "a string with 3 as, an even number of bs, and either 2-3 cs or 4+ ds" and having a regex engine do what I want pretty simple

user

02:11

@RadvylfPrograms Constraint programming is as far as you could possibly get from imperative stuff

@emanresuA Okay yeah it's simple as long as you stick to simple stuff

Radvylf Programs

Hmm, I suppose actually declarative stuff is the opposite of actually imperative stuff, but most of the time I see it used it's just to make semi-abstract half-imperative stuff sound cooler

user

Surprisingly expressive for such a limited language

emanresu A

@emanresuA For reference, aaa(bb)+ccc?dddd+

user

@RadvylfPrograms I mean, whenever you see any claims about a language being Some Big Word, you should probably just ignore it and try the language yourself

@emanresuA Could be golfed with {} :P

Wait nvm

emanresu A

d{4,} is the same length

user

02:14

Yeah just realized lol

emanresu A

Oops, misread my own message.

aaa(bb)+(ccc?|dddd+)

Radvylf Programs

02:27

-1.'...1-'3 is a valid number in rSNBATWPL and it's the same as 17 / 15

Be afraid

hyper-neutrino

... do I want to ask how that even works

is that a literal?

Radvylf Programs

02:46

Yep

But I have to go to sleep now so you can't know why or how for the next multiple hours

hyper-neutrino

i could probably find some mechanism by which i could make that represent 17/15 but i could also probably make it equal like 20 other numbers so at best i'd get maybe one or two things correct by random guessing

nitsua60

03:24

@cairdcoinheringaahing was there something that brought that whois request to your notice? I don't mind the sweet mod-rep, I'm just curious =D

caird coinheringaahing

@nitsua60 I was looking for a specific feature relating to chat, and found that, and from time to time I start bounties for feature requests I support

caird coinheringaahing

03:49

@RadvylfPrograms No

emanresu A

04:08

WTF no

Unrelated String

bruh

guess it's better than strictly necessary but

lyxal

04:22

@emanresuA I don't get it either.

You don't need secrecy for success lol

Not with language design at least

emanresu A

Indeed, most langs grew and acquired help by being publically accessible

lyxal

04:36

IMO your language is more likely to succeed and be popular if you have community contributions and feedback; popularity is a long game, not a short burst of interest on language reveal followed by nothing

PyGamer0

since:

in flax, 41 secs ago, by PyGamer0

no one noticed ^^ :(

lyxal

Plus you're more likely to finish because you have other people actively checking your progress and helping you out rather than you potentially procrastinating and pushing back work further and further

PyGamer0

in flax, 12 hours ago, by PyGamer0

CMP: A C++ (experimental) version of flax?

lyxal

Don't do that

Could be painful

hyper-neutrino

what's flax currently in

lyxal

04:54

Python

emanresu A

A glflang does not need effin'ceie

lyxal

You say that as if we aren't migrating to Scala for that exact reason

And as if we don't have two flavours of Vyxal specifically dedicated to speed

att

05:09

imagine not writing it in a real language (machine code)

hyper-neutrino

ah. moving to c++ would probably be quite painful and if flax makes use of python's infinite integer precision that might be very annoying for you to figure out in c++

PyGamer0

05:46

@emanresuA looks at jyxal

@att was planning to write flax in aarch64 :P

@hyper-neutrino i use infinite integer precision and i also use infinite float precision...

(well not infinite float precision but arbitrary float precision)

Unrelated String

if you're doing arbitrary float precision you may as well just use rationals though?

unless there's some huge performance edge i'm missing

PyGamer0

sympy was hard for me to embed..

mpmath.org was easier.

Unrelated String

you can hack together a basic rational type without using all out sympy

PyGamer0

i Am LaZy

Unrelated String

has the disadvantage compared to sympy of only being able to approximate irrationals but floats do that anyways

PyGamer0

05:52

mpmath has arbitrary precision floats

example:

in flax, Mar 10 at 11:36, by PyGamer0

Unrelated String

yeah mpmath looks really nice for practical applications

PyGamer0

(warning: out of date code)

@UnrelatedString sympy uses mpmath under the hood

Unrelated String

makes sense

probably why i haven't actually heard of it before now :P

PyGamer0

i tried teaching @mathcat flax 2 months ago..

in flax, Mar 10 at 15:05, by mathcat

and the result is 5×(3+4)=12

CMC: what is wrong ^?

in flax, Mar 15 at 10:51, by PyGamer0

@lyxal i am using doc comments instead of doc strings :p

CMC: Guess what happened here:

in flax, Mar 15 at 11:40, by PyGamer0

there is atleast 40000 unicode characters there

       1j2i[[0,1,2],[3,2,1]]
>>>
1

^ i am proud of that overload :)

emanresu A

06:59

UUGH js is being a sussy baka

Nvm I pulled a huge big brian

lyxal

> Big Brian

graffe

07:50

We have a lot of national flag drawing challenges, but the most important question is…

CMQ Which flag drawing challenge has had the longest shortest answer?

PyGamer0

09:39

CMQ: How much RAM does your PC have?

emanresu A

My latpop has 8GB

PyGamer0

> No-one needs more than 16k of memory.

Adám

09:59

@PyGamer0 My laptop has 16 GB.

@emanresuA What is a latpop? Population at a specific latitute?

5

emanresu A

Lol

PyGamer0

my computer has 8gb

i want to make an 8 bit computer .....

Main goals:

- 8 bit

- built on a breadboard

- can chat here via the computer

emanresu A

Wait, so 8 bits of ram?

PyGamer0

nah, maybe 32kb of ram

a byte of ram does nothing

ophact

> latpop

emanresu A

10:01

You're going to need a substantial amount of storage space or some clever usb dongle to have tls/ssl working

PyGamer0

hmm i dont know how the internet works...

todo: make a c program that communicates with the internet (without any libraries)

@emanresuA does DSO stand for Digital Storage Oscilloscope? /s

TIL Ben Eater uses desmos

lyxal

10:58

@PyGamer0 no, silly, that's not what DSO means.

It means Danger, Stupid Ostriches

It's a warning that birds are near by

emanresu A

frick copilot

graffe

11:36

@emanresuA what did it do wrong?

emanresu A

That's decidedly not constant time

o/

Ginger

12:09

,,,,,chameleon

graffe

@emanresuA aha

What happens if you try optimized before a description

E.g. optimized sorting

Ginger

Bad idea: Encode files into images to use image-hosting services as file-hosting services

finally, a use for sa2!

lyxal

Statistical Area Level 2?

Ginger

~~Scene and Asset Archive~~ Don't tell anyone that's what it was for

@lyxal blursed_ipaddress

nitsua60

12:26

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sounds good =D

Ginger

hey look it's a mod

user

Does anyone know of good alternatives to McAfee? I can't exclude folders from real-time scanning, and the general lack of options is driving me nuts

mathcat

I use Avast online security too

Ginger

Give up and surrender your computer to the h4x0rs

mathcat

and quick heal anti tracker

lyxal

12:43

and other fun out-of-context HNQ questions: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/643183/…

Radvylf Programs

@lyxal It's mostly just that I'm too lazy to try explaining my language concepts early on and then needing to keep everyone up to date lol

Announcement: I'm going to tell everyone how catstruct works later today because I'm in an explainy mood

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Random Pixelated Image Compression Tags: code-golfgraphical-outputrandomcompressionimage-processing Given an integer \$n\$, guaranteed to be \$\geq2\$ and a power of 2, we are going to draw multiply boards either side-by-side or below one another, where the first has dimensions of \$n\$ by \$n\$;...

Ginger

13:19

@RadvylfPrograms you take the parts of the cat and you plug them together

ez

lyxal

I thought it was more like

struct cat {
    ...
}

Ginger

oh

lyxal

13:32

no that's the response when you ask what a pufferfish is

Ginger

14:10

I want to make a multiplayer game but I'm 100% sure that naughty people will abuse it

The solution I've come up with is "have player-hosted servers" (think of Among Us)

user

14:26

Make people login first, maybe? That way, only you and approved people would be able to play

Ginger

They will have to, but I have no doubt someone will find a way around it

New Posts

0

Q: Maximising affinity in tables

A couple invites N people to their wedding and wants to distribute them on K tables in the best possible way, taking into account their mutual affinity. Assuming that a minimum and a maximum number of guests can sit at the table and that the mutual affinity is known and is expressed with an integ...

combinatorics

0

Q: Maximize affinity among tables

A couple invites ***N*** people to their wedding and wants to distribute them on ***K*** tables in the best possible way, taking into account their mutual affinity. Assuming that a minimum and a maximum number of guests can sit at the table and that the mutual affinity is known and is expressed...

support code-golf

lyxal

14:50

It is finally cold enough to unironically wear my alexa hoodie and I'm so happy rn

hyper-neutrino

this is so happy alexa play never gonna give you up

Radvylf Programs

15:10

Oh yeah, the southern hemisphere's a thing that exists

Seggan

there are things that dont exist?

pxeger

arguably

For instance, the Death Star is a "thing"

but it doesn't really exist

Radvylf Programs

A smoooorbledeeebordiczzzz is a thing but it does not exist

Hopefully

Romanp

smordle. Wordle, but you have to guess the contents of a smore.

Radvylf Programs

15:38

> Otherwise, let n, k, and s be integers such that k ≥ 1, 10k - 1 ≤ s < 10k, 𝔽(s × 10n - k) is x, and k is as small as possible. Note that k is the number of digits in the decimal representation of s, that s is not divisible by 10, and that the least significant digit of s is not necessarily uniquely determined by these criteria.

Blegh

Romanp

I wonder if a TNB Corewar tournament could be interesting.

DLosc

15:55

@Romanp Related, and somewhat related.

Romanp

I saw those, and Code Bots has been pretty similar too, but I mostly meant as a real-time event (get an hour or 2 to make bots, then run them all). Maybe teams.

DLosc

I do like the idea of a KotH where all submissions are in the same small, easily learned language. It avoids the whole "I'd like to participate but I don't know (JavaScript/Java/Python)" conundrum.

@Romanp For Corewar in particular, from what I've seen of it, there are a lot of established strategies... so with 2 hours to write a bot, I'd say anyone with prior experience would trounce the rest of us.

Romanp

Ok.

I'll think about a challenge-specific lang KoTH though (my current idea isn't working too well)

DLosc

I have wondered before whether something like Corewar could be done using Subleq...

@Adám Latvian popular music

Adám

ofc

Romanp

16:03

Would probably need a way to interact better with an opponent, but seems pretty close to working. Something with just one or two functions might do it.

Seggan

@DLosc "Dating back to the 20th century" i love it

Romanp

Shameless plug: 4 hours left in King of the Holster! codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/246460/…

Radvylf Programs

RSNBATWPL is working! I just need to add the builtins and standard library :D

This is my first practical language I've actually finished

Seggan

practical as in practical for golfing?

Radvylf Programs

No, practical as in a practical language for actual usage, like PHP or C++

There are three main categories of language IMO: practical, golfing, and esoteric

This one's moderately esoteric, but mainly practical

pxeger

16:10

PHP and C++ are interesting choices for practical languages

Romanp

"practical"

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger I chose them for a reason :)

Seggan

you have a repo for it?

id like to see it

Radvylf Programs

Not yet

I need to add some builtins or it won't actually work. Every nontrivial program returns null right now :p

PyGamer0

the latpop at 25000000000000ft is 0 people

pxeger

16:19

@RadvylfPrograms Why does your language have null?

Radvylf Programs

What else would it have?

pxeger

sum types

so you can have Nothing / Just x

more explicit than "nullability"

Seggan

nothing is basically null

pxeger

they have similar meanings, but work more explicitly

if you want a string variable to be allowed to be null, its type is Maybe String instead of just String

Radvylf Programs

Problem is, everything's gotta be nullable

And None / Some(x) would be pretty annoying if everything returned it

pxeger

16:22

@RadvylfPrograms why?

Radvylf Programs

It's complicated

But if a variable doesn't exist, I need some way to indicate that, and null is a convenient value for such a thing

mathcat

16:56

I just had an epic idea

I'll create an "Open in 10 years" folder

but also an ahk script which opens it after 10 years

Romanp

and put what inside?

mathcat

a rickroll

ofc

but maybe also some other stuff

Romanp

A rickroll that contains the private key to decode everything else on one frame

mathcat

clever

Romanp

so they HAVE to watch it

mathcat

17:00

really clever

the private key will be shown in the last frame

Radvylf Programs

Make it so that the private key is the xor of all the frames

Gotta watch 'em all

Romanp

nah, people skip to the end. Put it around 80% of the way through at a random spot

Ginger

what are yall planning this time?

Romanp

and it just appears on screen for a single frame and is gone

the worst time capsule ever

mathcat

@Romanp you can't

because I'm coding the video player in python

Romanp

17:02

Ah

mathcat

6 mins ago, by mathcat

I'll create an "Open in 10 years" folder

@RadvylfPrograms how would that work?

Radvylf Programs

17:13

Idk I'm not paid enough to figure out the specifics :p

mathcat

hmh

how many cookies?

Radvylf Programs

Two, but they need to be the same diameter as the averge 37 year old's liver

DLosc

So it turns out QBasic uses call-by-reference--and not the kind modern languages do, where you can only modify mutable values passed to a function. We're talking full "change the parameter in any way you want" call-by-reference.

FUNCTION TestFn(n)
  n = n + 1
  TestFn = n * n
END FUNCTION

a = 4
b = TestFn(a)
PRINT b    ' Prints 25, as you'd expect
PRINT a    ' Prints 5

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms uff

that's big

Radvylf Programs

@DLosc huh, neat

DLosc

17:25

Now that I've run into it again, I do vaguely remember knowing this previously, because when I learned other languages I was surprised they didn't work that way. But now that I'm used to other languages, it's a royal pain to deal with QBasic.

Basically had to create separate copies of all the parameters of one function because I wanted to mutate them in a loop but definitely didn't want the arguments to the function call to be updated.

I guess it can be useful if you're expecting it. Might actually simplify my parser logic.

Radvylf Programs

Finishing rSN and Y'know what's fun about writing an interpreter for a practical language in another high-level practical language...you don't need to garbage collect anything because the language you're writing the interpreter in handles that lol

DLosc

Yup

Seggan

its in python?

DLosc

I'm guessing Java's Crypt

Seggan

~~autcorrect~~

DLosc

17:39

(intentional)

Romanp

@DLosc Sounds like a really bad 90's adventure video game

DLosc

You say bad, I hear cult classic ^_^

Romanp

Well, maybe ;)

They spent all this money flying out to Indonesia to film a trailer for the game, but never showed any gameplay...

Got GPT3 to write an article about it

in the Edge

"The team was made up of four people: Brian, Adam, Chris and Chris, each of them with different skills. "

Radvylf Programs

Calling functions, assigning variables, function literals, and array literals now work :D

DLosc

17:55

Noice!

mathcat

which lang?

Radvylf Programs

rSN

DLosc

Interesting choice of function call syntax--any particular reason for the curly braces?

Radvylf Programs

Yes, a particular oddity in its parsing

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms stands for?

Radvylf Programs

17:56

The function call syntax has to be distinct from the grouping syntax

@mathcat Radvylf Should Not Be Allowed To Write Programming Languages

The full name is RSNBATWPL, but rSN is shorter

mathcat

yeah totally makes sense

Ar-e-san

Radvylf Programs

I prefer "raisin-batwaffle"

mathcat

lol

Romanp

r-bw?

DLosc

18:26

Looks like QBasic's maximum recursion depth is 49.

Romanp

that's low

DLosc

To be fair, it was designed to work on computers that had like 1 MB of RAM

Radvylf Programs

18:56

I feel like y'all are gonna have some opinions about my language's booleans

Seggan

1 and 0?

Radvylf Programs

if (id.match(/(do|can?|(sh|c|w)ould|did|is|was|will|wo'?|non?)?(n't)*'?/))
    return {
        type: "bool",
        data: Math.floor((id.match(/(n't)+'?$/) || [""])[0].length / 3) % 2 == (id.slice(0, 2) == "no" ? 1 : 0)
    };

no is falsy, do is truthy, don't is falsy, don'tn't is truthy, non't is truthy, can't is falsy, will is truthy, won't is falsy

And so on

Seggan

all i can say is im confused

Radvylf Programs

Basically the booleans are english contractions

so if {can't} isn't going to run, while if {can} will. Same with do, can, should, did, is, will, and a couple of others

hyper-neutrino

i see why you said you shouldn't be allowed to write programming languages

Romanp

19:02

why don'tn't?

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms I could probably justify this fairly well with some sort of readability thing, but not with a straight face :p

Romanp

Less than an hour left in King of the Holster!

pxeger

The worst is when you run out of monospaced fonts and have to use variable-width variables.

Radvylf Programs

Hmm slight problem it seems my parser doesn't allow functions with multiple statements in them

Romanp

it's not a bug, it's a feature!

Radvylf Programs

19:17

Well, problem is, functions are basically the only way to group together code

Romanp

can you make a function call another function? If so, you can still group stuff probably

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, but rather painfully

Romanp

Just in a terribly janky way

des54321

@RadvylfPrograms if you need a more than 50-character regex to figure out whether or not something is a boolean literal you are doing things incredibly wrong

Radvylf Programs

Well I was previously using a chain of ||s and ==s that was four times the width of my screen

Would you prefer that

pxeger

19:25

I think the implication was that you shouldn't have a boolean literal syntax that compilcated in the first place

Radvylf Programs

This is for readability. rSN's slogan is "readability first, security second, performance third".

pxeger

I find it hard to believe that this will end up being any more readable than true/false

Radvylf Programs

Well then you are wrong :p

pxeger

but whatever sinks your yacht I guess

Radvylf Programs

I think the name of the language kind of shows how much I care about actually making this language good lol

pxeger

19:29

what does it stand for?

radvlyf scripting notation?

really stupid notation?

Radvylf Programs

Radvylf Should Not Be Allowed To Write Programming Languages

pxeger

ah

Unrelated String

i can see why

DLosc

19:50

@pxeger Politifact says: True!

Radvylf Programs

if {do or don't} is so much more readable than if (true || false)

It makes programming so natural you might fall asleep at your keyboard

DLosc

Hey, as long as it works for you, it has a reason to exist. If too many other people like it, tho, we might have a problem. These sorts of idiosyncratic languages sometimes catch on, and then the rest of the world has to deal with them. ;)

Radvylf Programs

I'm almost certain I will hate the end product

Which is, after all, part of the goal :p

If rSN did catch on the world would be a better place though

Because everyone would have a shared traumatic experience to bond over

Neil

@DLosc have you seen FORTRAN's call by reference?

DLosc

No--I haven't experienced FORTRAN yet.

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