The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

00:00

crap what's that timing program called that speedrunners use?

livesplit?

Redwolf Programs

Yeah

hyper-neutrino

sounds right

lyxal

okay yeah it is

Bubbler

> Tips for golfing in Python

A username

@lyxal Someone used a rubix cube stackmat

caird coinheringaahing

00:00

@Bubbler That's OP for linked questions :P

Bubbler

Yeah :P

lyxal

@Bubbler it has 287 linked questions. ofc I'mma use it

New Posts

0

Q: Is this an ordinal transform?

Related: What's my telephone number? which asks to calculate the terms of A000085, the number of possible ordinal transforms of length n. Background Ordinal transform is a transformation on an integer sequence. For a sequence \$a=(a_0, a_1, a_2, \cdots)\$, the \$n\$-th term of the ordinal transfo...

Luis Mendo

My first OEIS entry \o/

Redwolf Programs

Nice!

hyper-neutrino

00:10

@NewPosts i have a 20 byter but again, dissatisfied with the size, so i will think about this one while i go for a walk :p

A username

I'm trying to get Vyxal to work

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Your challenge is to write a small compiler/interpreter to a small language. This language can be of any level. Example: brainf*ck or Turing. Example submission: languageName : “name” WhatItWasWritenIn : “Lang” GitHub : “https/GitHub.com/Lang” a language is valid if it contains the folowing sy...

user

Oh dear

A username

Oh no

And it's a different personl..

Bubbler

I don't know where I should start criticizing that one

A username

00:25

Me neith

er

N3buchadnezzar

Optinal?

user

Optional

Redwolf Programs

00:54

Oh boy, that sandbox challenge is a lot of things but good is not one of them

That is a very valid flag jeez

caird coinheringaahing

Ugh, it's in a Math.SE room :/

OldSandboxPosts

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Polyagony layout (mode 3/3,6) [code-golf] [ascii-art] [string], Decide Magma's Identity

A username

Getting chat flags is weird

@Bubbler Are you going to do something with ^^?

Redwolf Programs

Okay so looking a bit deeper at the context it's not as bad as I first thought since the user had pinged them multiple times and appeared to not put much effort in, but still too rude of a tone I think

Ooh nice, courier new has font support for macron letters

I've seen a lot of fonts that don't, which seems a bit lazy

caird coinheringaahing

01:12

A FRACTAN interpreter is enough to imply TCness, right?

Redwolf Programs

Yes

Bubbler

Or a simulator (for a given FRACTRAN program, it is sufficient to have an equivalent program of it)

like what I did here

A username

CMC: FRACTRAN interpreter in INTERCAL

caird coinheringaahing

In which case, I can prove Jelly is TC in 14 bytes :P

Redwolf Programs

INTL keyboard layouts seem to vary slightly between OSes, which is very annoying for code page design :p

caird coinheringaahing

01:24

FRACTRAN interpreter in Jelly. Takes the initial value on the left, and a list of fraction pairs on the right

hyper-neutrino

oh you found a sort-invariant solution

nice

my original garbage 20-byter was ŒQ¬x@¹ßµ0µQŻIỊẠµ?1¹?

caird coinheringaahing

Lovely :P

hyper-neutrino

oh the idea i came up with on my walk doesn't work :c

was trying to do smth like this

caird coinheringaahing

@cairdcoinheringaahing I believe this might actually be the first "proof" that Jelly is TC

Redwolf Programs

There hasn't been a BF interpreter written with it before, ever?

Bubbler

01:31

At least there's no Jelly answer on this question

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Not as far as I can tell

Bubbler

though Jelly sucks with old challenges so I guess no one bothered

caird coinheringaahing

Everytime we have a question around TCness, Jelly doesn't show up

@Bubbler I tried, but it's tough

Bubbler

and Jelly also sucks with imperative stuff (anything interpreter-related)

caird coinheringaahing

Tacitness doesn't lend itself well to while loops, meaning that the standard interpreter approach of transpiling is more tough than unusual

Plus, you have to keep track of 3 things: the current command, the tape and the tape head

Bubbler

01:34

but a FRACTRAN program is simple enough to simulate in J even with limited chars (and by extension Jelly), so it's a nice TC proof target

A username

Wasif was trying to do it in Vyxal.

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing Is it simple in Jelly to compute a sequence that satisfies a predicate joined with all previous terms? e.g. a specific kind of number that is coprime to all previous terms.

caird coinheringaahing

Nothing obvious comes to mind

You can use ¡ and ; in the loop body, but I don't know how good that'll be

Bubbler

Or maybe # combined with register?

caird coinheringaahing

Possibly, but you can't access the results of # in the body, so I'm not sure hoe doable that would be

Bubbler

01:47

You can assume the nth "specific kind of number" is easy to calculate using just n as input

caird coinheringaahing

So for example, a program to find the 5th square number that is coprime to all previous terms?

Bubbler

Yeah, something like that

barring number-theoretic optimizations

caird coinheringaahing

¿ doesn't work for some reason :/

caird coinheringaahing

02:11

@Bubbler Try it online!

The condition is before the ð, the register has the output

Bubbler

Looks quite convoluted, but nice :P

caird coinheringaahing

I think it works, I'm still testing :P

The Rɼ trick is so cursed :P

Redwolf Programs

02:30

Aw man, I thought of a math pun that would've been great in the chain earlier :/

It was a bit derivative though :D

caird coinheringaahing

The problem with math puns is that we use the same group every time. We should distribute them more, maybe sort them into categories

Maybe we can even associate them with other puns

Redwolf Programs

Doesn't seem like it'd function very well, there's absolutely no value

(Hopefully those were actual math puns and I'm not just hearing everything as math puns now)

caird coinheringaahing

(every noun you can think of refers to some mathematical term :P)

@RedwolfPrograms I suppose we could measure them

Is this a Markov chain pretending to be a person?

Redwolf Programs

No

Redwolf Programs

02:55

Is MSE really this slow to close/migrate/delete stuff?

I guess I'm just used to CGCC's policy of "we've failed if we haven't nuked it in less time than it takes to open the link" :p

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler I'm very tempted to hammer :/

@RedwolfPrograms 15 minutes is normal, can range up to an hour

Redwolf Programs

After I managed to use jQuery as a vector to intercept keyboard events for my escape key handling userscript, I'm wondering if I could potentially use that to attack the issue of insecure image loading

I can probably catch the images early with @run-at and remove them from the DOM entirely, except in chat or where they're dynamically loaded, which is where jQuery might be a possible way to intercept them

hyper-neutrino

03:13

@RedwolfPrograms i only consider it a success if spam is gone by the time smokey even catches it :p

caird coinheringaahing

How;s progress on Blog Post #2?

Looks like the room is fairly dead

Redwolf Programs

Was that the one Razetime was working on?

caird coinheringaahing

I think so

About explanations

Redwolf Programs

If that one's dead at the moment we could start a third one to post first to give the writers of post #2 some more time

Although that might get confusing

caird coinheringaahing

ngl, I'd be happy to write a post about this history of golfing langs over the next week to give the other post some time

Bubbler

03:26

@cairdcoinheringaahing No problem. It's just that it's exceedingly hard to find duplicates when people make up words to describe the task :/

Also it turned out somewhat easier than expected

hyper-neutrino

idea: categorize every single challenge by keywords, known formulas/algorithms/OEIS entries, and test cases /s

Bubbler

Lol, it would be handy for tasks related to some OEIS sequence

caird coinheringaahing

That's one of the reasons I like posting sequence challenges. They're relatively easy to dupe find, as they have mostly unique keywords, and you can search for A123456

hyper-neutrino

it would be very nice and also take us like 14 years

Bubbler

I try to deviate from posting the sequence in exact form

caird coinheringaahing

03:31

Interestingly, if I'd solved Bubbler's challenge in the sandbox, then used my analyser to dupe-find, I would've found it

Leaky's answer also has Ṭ€+\

hyper-neutrino

that's one of the good things about golfing languages

no backslashes at the end of codeblocks btw

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing Please do on all my other sandbox challenges /s

hyper-neutrino

similar challenges will almost always have optimal solutions with similar patterns or identical substrings in golfing languages whereas practical languages have too much fluff and variability :p

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler I normally do tbh whenever I follow an "Any feedback?" link

hyper-neutrino

therefore, golfing languages are good for dupe finding :p

caird coinheringaahing

03:32

Haven't done it lately as I've been a bit too busy for Sandbox reviewing

hyper-neutrino

this is a very important use case obviously and solves the whole "are golfing langauges good for cgcc" debate

Bubbler

Except that the golfing language in question has to be mature and have been already in use for a few years

caird coinheringaahing

Jelly is surprisingly good for that tbh

It's old enough that there is a large database to look through, and concise enough that it stays in use for 5+ years

Bubbler

That statement is probably also true for 05AB1E, but somehow it's under-represented in this chatroom :P

caird coinheringaahing

If a golfing lang isn't Jelly, it's bad :P

A username

03:38

Even INTERCAL?

caird coinheringaahing

Is INTERCAL a golfing lang?

A username

Maybe not

Unrelated String

maaaaaaaybe not

honestly i feel like golflangs could make some use of intercal's select operator
like that could add some serious extra depth to bit twiddling

A username

03:58

@RedwolfPrograms That was a very clever cop - I wasn't using Object.defineProperty...

Or returning a generator function

Redwolf Programs

You were trying to delete or redefine Symbol.iterator in some way, right?

A username

Yes

But setting it didn't work

And setting Symbol undefined it but still worked somehow...

Redwolf Programs

I think the way symbols work means that Symbol.iterator is just a reference to the symbol, but it still exists even when that reference is destroyed (and things like ... would use the actual symbol, not the Symbol.iterator reference)

I'm just assuming that's how it works though

A username

JS is confusing

I'm going to try Vyxal, which has far more exploitable bugs.

Redwolf Programs

lol

A username

04:03

Do not mention vectorisation or generators around Lyxal.

Redwolf Programs

@Lyxal So, what's your opinion on vectorizing generators?

(Not a real ping, I used ZWSPs :p)

Aaron Miller

@RedwolfPrograms There’s a reason this tag exists

caird coinheringaahing

~~I think it is~~ Nevermind :P

@red does this ping you?

Redwolf Programs

Yes

caird coinheringaahing

got to love case insensitivity

Redwolf Programs

04:06

@CaIrDcOiNhErInGaAhInG :p

A username

@cai You've been pinged, you've been pinged, have a nice day.

caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ

A username

ಠ_ಠ
 |
/ \

caird coinheringaahing

You've been pinged by,
You've been mentioned by,
A smooth golfer

:P

Redwolf Programs

Learning about integration for the first time

A username

04:07

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ok, how?

@RedwolfPrograms I can assure you, it's painful

caird coinheringaahing

Multi
Line
Messages

A username

Especially when you get to trigonometric integrals

caird coinheringaahing

Those are fun :P

A username

You
Hacker

caird coinheringaahing

Then again, I may be biased, I'm doing a masters in math :P

Unrelated String

04:08

:P

Redwolf Programs

Oh, neat

A username

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ok, so what's the integral of √(x^2-16) / x^3 (totally not my homework)

caird coinheringaahing

@Ausername 7

It's always 7

A username

What if it's 8?

caird coinheringaahing

I "officially" start in September, but they've already sent us reading material :/

@Ausername Then it;s actually 7

Redwolf Programs

04:09

@Ausername Then you're not doing real math

3

caird coinheringaahing

@Ausername ಠ_ಠ Now I have to solve that

A username

It's almost that

but not quite

Bubbler

That's cursed notation

A username

Agreed

caird coinheringaahing

@cairdcoinheringaahing On the other hand, it's 5am and I've had too much to drink to actually do calculus :P

A username

04:13

5am? gobackto sleep;

caird coinheringaahing

I wish

My sleep schedule has gotten so fucked in the past few weeks that my only hope is to pull an all nighter and reset it :/

A username

Gosh, you're a lot nicer than hyper - they sent me a pack of velociraptors when I told them to sleep

in Vyxal, Jul 3 at 9:08, by hyper-neutrino

A username has been mauled by velociraptors

caird coinheringaahing

I think control over dinosaurs is a mod-only ability

30k is "Control over small mammals" tho

A username

Wait, you get that? Now I want to be a mod...

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh no

caird coinheringaahing

in Jelly, Jun 17 '16 at 16:29, by Dennis

The next quick I implement with definitely be x mdQ y -> m(x) d m(y). Can't count the times I've needed that.

Is this a thing?

Unrelated String

04:18

...

i

don't think so?

yeah wait isn't that just over

which we do not quite have

caird coinheringaahing

Doesn't over use inverses?

Or is that under?

Unrelated String

that's under

Bubbler

J had it since long before, APL got it recently, I don't hear Jelly actually got it

Unrelated String

under as well would of course be, as we call it in the business, hella based

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing A certain minecraft speedrunner would be worried by this

caird coinheringaahing

04:19

Might add it to my fork tbh

Redwolf Programs

> "I'm worried I might get bodied by a rabbit."

- Couriway, 2021

A username

Nice

caird coinheringaahing

Oh, I thought you meant dream

Redwolf Programs

Link

hyper-neutrino

@Ausername that's just cuz you used gotos, not cuz you told me to go to sleep

because as we all know i also have an exceptionally healthy sleep schedule, just like caird

5

pretty much every day near midnight my time i'll be like "wait caird tf are you still doing being awake" and then caird comes back online at like 5am my time and i'm like "wait hyper tf are you still doing being awake"

A username

04:22

Lol

caird coinheringaahing

its not my fault that I hate sleep :P

hyper-neutrino

sleep is such a waste of time smh

caird coinheringaahing

Unless I am asleep, in which case it is the greatest thign ever

Redwolf Programs

I have to hide my phone every night, otherwise I manage to turn off my alarm. Without waking up.

caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ I have a tab open with the title for a sandbox draft and it's taunting me :P

Unrelated String

04:24

:\:

Redwolf Programs

I set like ten alarms and wake up an hour after with all of them disabled.

Unrelated String

yep

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I hide my alarm clock

Really fucking annoying, but it works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thoughts?

Could do with some more votes/discussion

A username

Burninate

Bubbler

My thoughts haven't changed since I posted the answer

Redwolf Programs

04:28

@Ausername Synonymizing is better

I almost wrote "sus" instead of the first part of "synonym" because of muscle memory...what have I become

A username

BURNINATE IT ALLL

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms You are the lyxal

A username

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHHAHH!

caird coinheringaahing

@Ausername Wow, Peter joined earlier than I thought

A username

But how?

How does that appear?

Redwolf Programs

04:30

I guess the dupe target got deleted?

caird coinheringaahing

Do you have a link?

Redwolf Programs

^

A username

0

Q: Brainf*** interpreter

Possible Duplicate: Interpret Brainfuck As the name suggests, the challenge is to create the smallest brainf** interpreter, in the language of your choice. It can either accept input from the user, or get the code it parses from a string stored in the program. It can print the output...

interpreter brainfuck

Redwolf Programs

Huh, looks the same to me

So it's not a 10k+ thing

caird coinheringaahing

Someone add the code-golf tag so I can fix it

PyGamer0

04:31

Who else confuses lyxal with vyxal

caird coinheringaahing

@PyGamer0 Everytime I give lyxal a flag, he just gets confused

@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean this, someone please edit in the tag

Aaron Miller

@PyGamer0 Nah, I usually confuse Vyxal with Lyxal :p

caird coinheringaahing

I'd do it myself but that breaks what I'm trying to do :/

Ah, nice

hyper-neutrino

because the post is really old and i think the dupe UI was different back then

Aaron Miller

Lol that was actually my first tag edit

caird coinheringaahing

04:34

Yeah, it actually used to edit in the dupe message

hyper-neutrino

you can edit the dupe target i think @cairdcoinheringaahing

Redwolf Programs

Aw, I think question reception broke :(

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Do I need to?

> > **Possible Duplicate:**
> [Interpret Brainfuck](https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/84/interpret-brainfuck)

hyper-neutrino

nah, closing and reopening works fine :p

caird coinheringaahing

That used to be manually inserted, blegh

I wonder why Roomba hasn't removed it

A username

04:35

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh

I didn't edit

Turns out tape-based is very similar to stack-based

hyper-neutrino

debatable

A username

With Vyxal at leasy

Answer coming in a few minutes

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Mind nuking it? I don;t think it serves any purpose sticking around

A username

0

A: Interpret brainf***

Vyxal DO, 60 bytes `><+-[].,`£¥↔¥`‟„›‹{}:¼`Ŀ\¼‛_¼V\:`:C₴`V\{`{:|`V?Ṙ(nC⅛)₈(0)„Ė Try it Online!

I'm working on the explanation - it's just substituting a few things - Vyxal is perfect for this.

caird coinheringaahing

I guess Vyxal DO is officially TC :P

Redwolf Programs

04:37

Question Reception 1.1.1

hyper-neutrino

Vyxal DO be tc :P

A username

Any Vyxal be TC

DO is for convenience

Redwolf Programs

"convenience"

hyper-neutrino

roomba forecaster seems dead?

Redwolf Programs

Same bug that hit QR

Front end changed

A username

04:39

I can append a Q to get rid of O and construct some strings manually to get rid of D

hyper-neutrino

very nice

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Still isn't displaying for me

@hyper-neutrino Works for me

hyper-neutrino

wack

QR works for me but RF doesn't

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Try a hard refresh, that's weird

Seems like you're on the old HTML or something

caird coinheringaahing

> Uncaught (in promise) Error: Layout has changed; tell Redwolf to fix it
at eval

I get that after updating it

A username

04:41

And I just realised I forgot to mod 256

caird coinheringaahing

And this:

> Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'link' of undefined
at eval (userscript.html?name=PPCG%20Graduation%20Script.user.js&id=2c005aa0-dd73-4bb9-bdcf-99e07647947f:1269)
at eval (userscript.html?name=PPCG%20Graduation%20Script.user.js&id=2c005aa0-dd73-4bb9-bdcf-99e07647947f:1239)
at XMLHttpRequest.xmlHttp.onreadystatechange

But I think that's the gradscript

Redwolf Programs

Grad script will break, yeah

caird coinheringaahing

Gradscript mostly works

Redwolf Programs

That's definitely grad script, you can tell from name=PPCG%20Graduation%20Script.user.js :p

Probably minor though

caird coinheringaahing

It's a shame that "nuke plz" is 2 characters too short for flag messages :P

Bubbler

04:43

@Ausername If you can rotate (or reverse) the entire stack, it's essentially a wrapping tape

Redwolf Programs

I think the roomba script is interfering with QR for you, caird

A username

Yeah

And I can do that

so it is

Aaron Miller

I don’t think that’s 30000 cells either

A username

Wait it says 30k

Una momento

Bubbler

It must be simple to fix though

A username

04:46

Yes

I just push more 0s

Aaron Miller

lol

A username

Can I have 32768 instead of 30000?

Redwolf Programs

No, if the challenge says 30k then 30k :p

Bubbler

I don't think so, old challenges are pretty strict in that kind of parameters

A username

Ok

Aaron Miller

04:48

that would be the ₈(0) part, right?

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I think we've discussed this before

A username

Yep

Aaron Miller

you could change it to k23*(0)

A username

That's what I did

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Not sure what the conclusion on that was

A username

04:50

Oh wait overflow is undefined

Redwolf Programs

Apr 8 at 13:28, by Redwolf Programs

Find line 39 and delete || text_container[0].children.length != 3

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms This is what I previously had

Redwolf Programs

I think you'd said ^^ worked before

Aaron Miller

@Ausername Alternatively, you could use a list instead of the stack, with Ǔǔ instead of „‟, and initialize the tape with k23*ɾ† to save a byte

A username

That would make incrementing and decrementing more painful tho

Aaron Miller

04:53

True

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Yep, fixed (line 47 now)

hyper-neutrino

i can't read vyxal without referring to the elements page so... how do you do shifting and +/- anyway?

does the challenge guarantee no boundary exceptions?

also having a while construct must be really nice; i was gonna do this in jelly but the [] has convinced me otherwise :p

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino I've started then abandoned so many brainfuck attempts in Jelly :/

Redwolf Programs

I thought of a really elegant change to my language's code page while brushing my teeth and now I forgot it

hyper-neutrino

... rip

A username

04:57

Shifting the stack, incrementing and decrementing

hyper-neutrino

ah

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms we don't talk about those

They are the herobrine of vyxal

Redwolf Programs

Did that ping you?

A username

@lyx Does this ping you?

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms yesnt

@Ausername yes

caird coinheringaahing

05:10

lyxal reads the transcript remember

A username

So do I

caird coinheringaahing

me too

Bubbler

I do and don't

A username

I dynamite

Redwolf Programs

I usually do

hyper-neutrino

05:23

@user Roti -> Leeward Islands -> Fishing Industry in the Caribbean -> Trinity, Newfoundland and Labrador

caird coinheringaahing

That's a long tmie for 3 clicks ;P

A username

Why...

Try Katakana to Five Finger

hyper-neutrino

i forgot i bruteforced it and only just noticed cuz i'm cleaning up the like 15 screens on my server

@Ausername five finger is ambiguous

A username

pseudopanax arboreus

@cai What is ø7 or whatever, actually?

caird coinheringaahing

128

A username

05:29

Lol

Laughs in ₇

hyper-neutrino

oh i have a random 200M file on my server

PyGamer0

^ making a bitmap font

Aaron Miller

@Ausername you can shorten the brainfuck interpreter by two bytes by using the K flag. Try it Online! The bf program has to go in the header so that it doesn’t get affected by the K flag.

A username

That's... confusing and I'm not sure it;s valid.

Aaron Miller

lol

A username

05:49

in Vyxal, 16 secs ago, by Vyxal Bot

@Ausername I am doing nothing except answering your requests.

A username

06:16

How come Windows Phone is out of beta but politics isn't?

Their last question was three months ago!

Razetime

06:36

because politics sucks

windows phone is forever

A username

06:47

Uh...

Politics is consistently showing up on HNQ...

Repro?

Oh no

must've been caching

PyGamer0

07:00

CMC: Given a int find the (15th root of the (square added to the number)) multiplied by the number

root(x^2 + x, 15) × x

lyxal

07:11

@PyGamer0 Vyxal, 7 bytes: Try it Online!

²+15Ėe*

A username

07:44

Sus

PyGamer0

i made a transpiled language in python

A username

Nice

@lyxal Since when do we have consonants? Because we don't.

PyGamer0

@Ausername it has classes support and it can do whatever python can

A username

Cool

PyGamer0

@Ausername Here is the syntax!

A username

07:54

Ok

So basic transpialtion

Repo?

PyGamer0

i will put the code on github later

its less than 30 lines

lyxal

@Ausername we do though

A username

What?

k⁰ and k¹... Aren't.

lyxal

Those are consonants

bcfghjklmnpqrstvwxyz

Those are consonants

Transcript for