The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-04-09 (page 2 of 3)

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3:05 PM

0

Q: Identify the liars

There are \$a\$ honest man(always tell the truth), \$b\$ dishonest man(always tell lie), and \$c\$ random man(tell random Y/N). How many times at least should you ask one of them a yes/no question about who they are, to guarantee you get knowledge of who they are? You may assume that it's possibl...

CMC: (without executing it), what is the value of this JS code when typed in a REPL? {'0'}[0]

Redwolf Programs

That doesn't error?

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger '0'?

Not when typed into a REPL

Redwolf Programs

I'd go with the default undefined if I had to guess

3:15 PM

The answer is [0]

caird coinheringaahing

Just tried it; god I hate JS

Original Original Original VI

Wait how?

the {} is treated as a code block rather than an object, and it contains one statement: a useless '0'. Then after that code block statement, the REPL evaluates [0] and gives it straight back

Redwolf Programs

The {'0'} is a code block

ninja'd

Always forget you can put code directly after a block

Original Original Original VI

Oh, that actually makes sense

Is that because of semicolon inference?

Redwolf Programs

3:17 PM

Probably not

Original Original Original VI

nvm

Redwolf Programs

{a:5} and {a:5;} are both valid code

no, because you don't need a semicolon after a block (which is what @Wezl said and then deleted it)

Redwolf Programs

For totally different reasons

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Yesterday, did you get a +2 for editing the king-of-the-hill tag wiki?

Redwolf Programs

3:18 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes

Original Original Original VI

@RedwolfPrograms What does the second do? Is it a label?

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI yes

Redwolf Programs

Yep, a label then a statement

Original Original Original VI

Labels are cool

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Hmm, so clicking "Improve edit" and "Reject and edit" basically do the same thing, except that "Improve edit" awards +2 and "Reject and edit" doesn't

Redwolf Programs

3:19 PM

[0, 1, 2].map(n => {number: n})

@RedwolfPrograms well, they are both "labels"

@RedwolfPrograms oh god

Original Original Original VI

@RedwolfPrograms That gives me undefined, for some reason

Redwolf Programs

This is some underhanded stuff right here

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Yep, because JS is awesome /s

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I got [undefined, undefined, undefined]

Redwolf Programs

3:21 PM

It's because {number: n} is treated as a code block

A function's code block, actually

Original Original Original VI

Why?

Oh ok

If you wanted an object, you'd have to do n => ({number: n})

Original Original Original VI

God, I hate ambiguities

Redwolf Programs

It's not ambiguous if you make up awful yet unambiguous rules

Original Original Original VI

Unambiguous to parsers, ambiguous to humans

caird coinheringaahing

3:22 PM

Python version: a, b = 6, 9 sets a and b to what you'd expect. (a, b = 6, 9) is a syntax error. a, b:= 6, 9 is a syntax error. What about (a, b := 6, 9)?

tuple

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing I understand (a, b := 6, 9), but not a, b = 6, 9

What does the second one do?

Original Original Original VI

@RedwolfPrograms Think of it as (a, b) = (6, 9)

all this is caused by a difference between statements and expressions, which is a kludge

Redwolf Programs

Oh, ok. [a, b] = [6, 9]

Original Original Original VI

3:23 PM

Yeah, that works too

I think any iterable can be deconstructed

caird coinheringaahing

(a, b := 6, 9) is technically a name error unless you define a. Otherwise, it returns (a, 6, 9)

Bonus CMC: what is the value of 0 in [1]?

caird coinheringaahing

False

Redwolf Programs

true (JS)

Because the index 0 exists

@RedwolfPrograms put your semicolons

3:24 PM

true in js, false in python. yes

@pxeger error, no variable named in in a sensible language :)

Original Original Original VI

@Wezl Prolog? Lisp?

some sensible languages also say no variable named [1]

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI yup

@Wezl Haskell?

Redwolf Programs

user image

4

Original Original Original VI

3:25 PM

@Wezl I'm gonna go with Prolog, then

Oh wait, if [1] is one variable, then Lisp

@pxeger no, I think in is a keyword in haskell (let ... in ...)

ah

Original Original Original VI

Also, to make it infix, you'd need 0 `in` [1]

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI most allow [] to be a replacement for (), but some like tinyscheme allow [] in variable names

but I meant either prolog or lisp

Original Original Original VI

@RedwolfPrograms ?

caird coinheringaahing

3:27 PM

a = ['a', 'b', 'c']
for a[0] in a: print(a)

CMC: What does that output?

Original Original Original VI

Does the for a shadow the first a?

I just tried that and.... WTF? Python is supposed to be sensible!

Redwolf Programs

['a', 'b', 'c'], ['a', 'a', 'c'], ['a', 'a', 'a']?

No no no

Original Original Original VI

Wait, how?

Redwolf Programs

['a', 'b', 'c'], ['b', 'b', 'c'], ['c', 'b', 'c']?

caird coinheringaahing

3:29 PM

How about this one, where the only difference is an added :?

a = ['a', 'b', 'c']
for a[0:] in a: print(a)

user image

['a'], ['b'], ['c']?

@Wezl we're talking Python here

caird coinheringaahing

Spoiler

> What's the odd one out?
Grok, 31 bytes, n=1, m=2
4 mins ago - Aaron Miller (151)

@RedwolfPrograms Still got some html errors in New Posts

Redwolf Programs

:(

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI it treats it like a[0] = <first result> in <do stuff>; a[0] = <second> in <do stuff> I think

Redwolf Programs

3:31 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Screenshot?

Original Original Original VI

CMC: What could foo[0](0) mean in Nim?

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Here you go

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI define a list of functions maybe i dunno?

Redwolf Programs

Worked for me, what version are you on?

caird coinheringaahing

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Call the first function in a list, foo, with arg 0

@RedwolfPrograms 0.5

Original Original Original VI

3:33 PM

@Wezl Ah, thanks

@cairdcoinheringaahing That works, but it could also be this

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Scroll to line 42, what does it say?

caird coinheringaahing

 var a = document.createElement("a");

Redwolf Programs

Oh, I might have forgotten to release my fixed version

caird coinheringaahing

That could be it :P

Redwolf Programs

Updated to 0.6, link

caird coinheringaahing

3:35 PM

Thanks!

> I starting using struck-out numbers for old versions in imitation of other golfers on this site, so I can't tell you the original rationale

@cairdcoinheringaahing not sure, i think i can suggest synonyms on any tag even if i have insufficient score and then idk if it goes to vote or just auto approves

caird coinheringaahing

Source. When Peter Taylor, user 194, says "I can't tell you the origin" of something on the site, you know it's been around for a looong time

i can directly just merge a tag into another which retags all questions, and then i can choose to make a synonym

@cairdcoinheringaahing How does that work ????

caird coinheringaahing

@Wasif Magic :P

What it actually does, thanks to Wezl :P

Redwolf Programs

3:40 PM

user image

This is why I hate my english class

@RedwolfPrograms ...they test you on how well you did on your test?

Redwolf Programs

I have no idea

caird coinheringaahing

That feels like if you took a /100 test then you got your score back by playing Warmer or Colder

CMC: achieve turing completeness in Python 3 using only the tokens [, ], :, for, and in (I want to know if it is possible)

That's why I hate google forms

Redwolf Programs

3:42 PM

@Wezl What's wrong with Google Forms?

@pxeger indentation is most likely a token, can we use that?

@Wezl But i love them because when we give MCQ exams offline we cannot overwrite answers, but in google forms we can do it

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Can we use whitespace?

no whitespace (but if you find a way to do it with whitespace, I'd still be interested)

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger I don't think you can, as I think all programs that only use for will eventually halt

3:43 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing you might be able to continuously append to the object that for is iterating over to prevent it from stopping

@RedwolfPrograms because if it's not multiple choice, teachers will sometimes still try to use the automatic-grading

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger You can't recursively redefine the iterable you're looping on in the loop and have it continue the loop, so it'll always end

Redwolf Programs

@Wezl That's not Google Forms' fault

That's teachers being dumb

@cairdcoinheringaahing not redefine, but mutate

i'm not sure it's possible to append to the object if you can't reference it since we don't have variables

caird coinheringaahing

3:44 PM

for i in a: f(a) takes the value of a before the loop to iterate over

@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean, for i in a: a.append(1)

+ google + slow + I'm biased because I don't want to take tests

can confirm that's allowed for lists but not sets or dicts

caird coinheringaahing

Oh wow, I didn't know Python could do this

But a con of google forms is that if you are dishonest you can easily cheat

This is not possible in google forms if exam is held under Quilgo

Redwolf Programs

3:47 PM

Anything that "injects a behavior tracking tool" anywhere is not something good

But there is no other way to stop cheating without injecting the behaviour tracking tool

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms <insert authoritarian regime here> would like to disagree :P

@Wasif FTFY: But there is no ~~other~~ way to stop cheating ~~without injecting the behaviour tracking tool~~

Redwolf Programs

@Wasif I disagree. Cheating will always happen, and half the time those tools "catch" innocent people

caird coinheringaahing

If someone really wants to cheat, they will

3:49 PM

@Wasif i guess the discussion then comes down to whether it's better or should be allowed to inject the tool or if cheating should be on the presumption of honour

Redwolf Programs

They can just print out the answers on paper

Can't track that

caird coinheringaahing

If someone's dedicated enough to do anything, the likelihood is that they'll be able to do it

One of my friends just moved his head and he was caught

my math course took a different approach, they just allowed you to ask literally any source you wanted for help as long as your assignment work proved understanding

Redwolf Programs

I cheat all the time...nobody thinks to check in my brain!!!

6

caird coinheringaahing

3:51 PM

@hyper-neutrino Almost as though, and I know this sounds crazy, proper effective teaching isn't about strict rules and tests but about proper and sound understanding of the topic

5

Might be a bit too out-there tho, not sure :P

@RedwolfPrograms That dosen't seem cheating :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing wow :o (this is how you know i'm in uni, cuz high school would never be reasonable like that)

@pxeger I suspect this might be possible with the addition of +

how do you append to the loop target if you can't save it as a variable to append to it in the loop?

Redwolf Programs

I tried to help my younger sister with some math homework and the only reason she had for doing any of the steps in the problem was "the teacher said to", with no understanding of why

caird coinheringaahing

3:53 PM

@hyper-neutrino My high school math department was pretty good, they let you retake tests as often as needed if you wanted to (but only in A-level, junior/senior years)

Redwolf Programs

A good teacher doesn't tell you what to do, they tell you how and why to do it

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Which is why so many people hate math

@cairdcoinheringaahing 6th form in the UK is way different to secondary school. So much more human

caird coinheringaahing

If you don't get why something works, you're not going to get far, and it's the teacher's job to help you get why

@pxeger Oh, 100%

They actually treat you like people rather than irritations

i had a teacher who forced me to use one method even though i knew another better one

3:56 PM

Here's what I've found so far: []in[] is False (which is basically 0 as far as Python is concerned) [expr][[]in[]] can be used as parentheses

@hyper-neutrino only one teacher? All mine were like that

There are so many new challenges today I am struggling to find out which one to answer

i got a 92% once after getting every answer right and showing steps just cuz the steps weren't exactly what she wanted and weren't like perfectly labeled or something silly like that

caird coinheringaahing

It's been really fascinating to see the vote totals on the RO nominations posts evolve. Bubbler's been 1 vote behind me most of the time, until yesterday when we drew level at +15 (and everyone else got +1 taking them to +9/+7 etc.). Now, I'm at +17, Bubbler's at +15, Adam (+8) is closing with Redwolf/Lyxal (+9) and HN finally got a bronze badge :P

Should be very interesting to see how the actual election plays out :P

Redwolf Programs

I'm guessing it'll be you, Bubbler, Adám, and either me or Lyxal

caird coinheringaahing

I think me and Bubbler is very likely, but it should be close between you, Lyxal, Original and Adám IMO

Clearly we need a 4 way tie and appoint 6 ROs :P

4:01 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing How do the vote amounts correlate to the posting times?

What will happen to current room owners?

Redwolf Programs

They'll stay

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám Sorting by Oldest, the vote totals are -2/9/9/17/7/15/4/9

@Wasif We sacrifice them to the Great Golfy God :P

@Wasif we're keeping them as ROs, but it doesn't really matter :(

Is there any harm in having too many ROs?

4:03 PM

only xnor is pingable

caird coinheringaahing

Don't think so

Is there a maximum threshold of number of ROs

oh not anymore

caird coinheringaahing

Aside from people maybe checking the room info and trying to ping an inactive RO

we now have no ROs that can be pinged i think, rip

Redwolf Programs

4:03 PM

Without checking, is undefined = undefined valid JS? What about null = null? Or NaN = NaN?

@RedwolfPrograms = or ==?

Redwolf Programs

=

i think none are, but knowing js, no clue lmao

caird coinheringaahing

I kinda want to know how the "Frequently in room" calculation works

@RedwolfPrograms ROT13: nyy jbex rkprcg ahyy. Gung vf irel fgenatr

caird coinheringaahing

4:05 PM

> Take all users who

1. have spoken in the room within the last two weeks, and
2. whose messages in the room are more than one percent of all messages here,

and sort them (in descending order) by their percentage of activity in this room (as in 2.) divided by the how long ago they last spoke. Take the top ten resulting users.

(Source)

That seems very wrong despite being from balpha

Do you think it's a coincidence that most of the users who took on RO/moderator responsibilities have become less active since doing so?

caird coinheringaahing

I think their inactivity in chat (mostly) reflects their inactivity on main

xnor's probably the only RO who's active on main (DJ's posted recently tho)

@pxeger I am afraid this syndrome does not get affected to our new ROs

@cairdcoinheringaahing How to ping an RO? On chat or Main?

@Wasif on chat

caird coinheringaahing

Don't ping them on Main if it's chat related, and @username works in chat

(or it would if they've been in the room within 2 weeks)

Redwolf Programs

4:12 PM

Is outputting via STDERR allowed?

caird coinheringaahing

By default, yes

Redwolf Programs

Huh, throw x might be a way to shorten print(x) then for challenges that require full programs (JS)

caird coinheringaahing

Source

@RedwolfPrograms as an STDERR output?

yeah make sense

but those are pretty rare

Redwolf Programs

Unfortunately most challenges that require full programs also require STDOUT only :(

4:15 PM

well there's the "1,2,miss a few" one recently

0

Q: Hide a message in ascii art and an image - Cops

Robbers thread Your task is to create a method for hiding information in the combination of a piece of ASCII art and an image. Your method should require both pieces together to hide a given message. You will post three encoded messages of your choice (keep them classy), each with its associated ...

cops-and-robbers steganography

0

Q: Hide a message in ascii art and an image - Robbers

Choose a challenge from the Cops thread, determine the third hidden message, and describe how the system works. Keep in mind limitations and possibilities available to Cops: You are not expected to guess any cryptographic secrets or additional information required to extract the hidden messages,...

cops-and-robbers steganography

caird coinheringaahing

CMM: We have 6 meta tags with exactly one question: userscript, retagging, data-explorer, recent-activity, tagging and bookmarks. [retagging] and [tagging] should be merged/synonymised/deleted and replaced with tags. [recent-activity] should be m/s/d.a.r with notifications. What about the other 3?

I don't know that bookmarks should exist at all. The other 2 I think are fine though

I think we should edit the questions and remove those 3 tags

Original Original Original VI

@hyper-neutrino Thanks!

4:26 PM

But userscript should be kept (There might be questions in future) and also data-explorer should be moved to Meta SE or the tag should be removed

@user np :D I set it to save across all communities; hope that's what you wanted

CMC: 65a4609a

okay, I merged retagging and tagging into tags (didn't create a synonym, cuz there's not really a point, those two tags should've never been used by anyone in the first place, and probably won't again)

hm, changing your username is "all the rage" now

@hyper-neutrino Yep, that's exactly what I wanted. I should never have put my real name as my username in the first place.

4:30 PM

more specifically changing it to caird coinheringaahing

I should do that

And change your profile picture to a dog

I think I'll change it to a dcg

:P

rats, usernames can't have -->

how does zalgo text work in usernames

4:34 PM

I wonder if it's ever possible to do an XSS with -->

@pxeger Wouldn't you need an opening <!-- somewhere?

@user yes, but you never know what some PHP users might write

Fair enough

I'm going to regret this.....

It'll be worth it.

4:43 PM

and SE continues to squash spaces >:|

I don't see a dcg or a dog :(

I can't put either in a username

You could put it in your avatar

caird coinheringaahing

Oct 8 '19 at 16:07, by caird coinheringaahing

O.o I seem to have a doppelganger

Is there a homoglyph of >?

user image

4:46 PM

yes but too lazy

@cairdcoinheringaahing Your doppelganger is an interesting person ^

ᐳ might do?

Looks close enough to me

›

That one is a bit better

4:47 PM

˃

It's too late now, though, you need to wait a month to change it.

no I can undo

Really? How?

... but this one is better, ~~and I still have more to check~~

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Could you do the same with recent-activity and notifications as they're about the same thing?

@user You have a 15 minute grace period

4:49 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing done

@JohnDvorak is this a letter in some alphabet?

›, ≻, ❯, ❭, 〉, ⟩, ⦣, 〉

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh nice

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino 'preciated :)

One advantage of merging vs synonyms: merging removes them from the tag listing

now I need parentheses and commas, working on it

4:52 PM

pxeger had some pretty good homoglyphs (3rd one from the right looks like parens)

> U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD

#2 is a quotation mark

The first one is U+1344 CANADIAN SYLLABICS PO

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Just in case you weren't aware, New Posts is much faster than the Recently Active page (e.g. this is in New Posts but hasn't even showed up on Recently Active for me as of writing) :P

courtesy of: shapecatcher.com and apps.timwhitlock.info

I got mine from compart.com/en/unicode

yeah I was using shapecatcher I'll look at the other one thanks

4:56 PM

ooh nice!

Or the old trusty unicode.org/Public/13.0.0/charts/CodeCharts.pdf

caird coinheringaahing

bookmarks has been removed, given that MM has almost all the information about them here, I doubt we'll get any more

userscript and data-explorer could probably do with being slapped on a couple more questions, I can think of a few they'd be relevant on

How did I just earn the [convention] badge without receiving any upvotes/increase in rep?

are you sure you didn't get any upvotes? you wouldn't get notified for meta votes

since they don't give rep

oh right

New Sandboxed Posts

5:22 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Make an image with the pixels from another (WIP) image-processing code-challenge Given a target image and a source image, output an image that resembles the target image by rearranging the pixels of the source image. You will be scored based on speed and accuracy. $$ score = {similarity(Image_{t...

5:44 PM

Ended up outgolfing primo by 6 bytes in Perl/PCRE2!

6:25 PM

2

Q: Implement Ash's float division

Ash has a bit of an interesting float division algorithm. It's designed to never return NaN, and things like signed zero and infinity need to be handled. How it works: Assume the inputs are positive for the rules below. One input being negative will always result in the output being negative. Ze...

code-golf math division floating-point

Redwolf Programs

7:03 PM

Crossed out 44 is no longer 44 :(

(it hasn't been for a while but I forgot about the meme)

44 44

Looks like it still is in chat at least

Try it out in the Sandbox

Unrelated String

7:14 PM

user image

Redwolf Programs

It is so weird seeing one of my messages in gray...

what font are you using? The only difference for me is that the crossed-out one has a tiny extra bit of line to the right, possibly only a single pixel. It's the same on main for me

Unrelated String

whatever the default one is probablu

y

user image

Unrelated String

your 44 still looks a biiiiit thicker in the middle than your 44

like not in terms of actual pixels

but like

7:17 PM

@UnrelatedString I think that's just aliasing

Unrelated String

the antialiasing is darker

or downscaling or w/e

it's not noticeable from normal screen viewing distance

@UnrelatedString it's font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif, and I just checked and mine is using Arial so I'm guessing it's just because you have Verdana installed and I don't

Unrelated String

makes sense

wait that's how it looks to some people?

i thought the joke was that they looked very similar; i didn't realize it looked almost identical to some people. i see the crossed 44's middle bar noticeably thicker and i can tell it's crossed out it just looks pretty close

Which one is different for you? I'm using Linux not Windows or macOS so that might be why I don't have Verdana

Unrelated String

7:28 PM

yeah windows here

@hyper-neutrino Me too, but it's less noticeable with some fonts and screens

user image

you just have to zoom out

Zooming out actually makes it worse for me :\

if it's still different, zoom out more

user image

7:39 PM

actually yeah if I zoom out a huge amount the strikethrough shows more than zoomed in (compared to the actual 4 size)

Huh, it works, but now I can't read anything else

but some strikethroughs just blur in, so it depends on whether it's on a pixel boundary

those 44s look different for me, but not the ones in redwolf's original message because ^

oh hey, i hit 28k exactly :P

i see redwolf finally got his multiple of 10 as well

Time to downvote one of Redwolf's questions/answers :P

7:55 PM

start a -1 bounty for extra frustration

2 hours later…

Redwolf Programs

9:48 PM

@user You're back to user!

People's names here are finally recognizable again :p

Unless I decide to switch to Browncat Programs for a little while

10:07 PM

@RedwolfPrograms I was actually getting kinda used to Original Original Original VI. user kinda lacks the uniqueness and personality of Original Original Original VI. However, I don't think I'm going to switch back to Original Original Original VI because it's so hard to type "Original Original Original VI," don't you think? It was a good thing hyper-neutrino changed my username from Original Original Original VI to user.

Redwolf Programs

I kind of like user. It's not original, but that's what makes it original. You're recognizable enough because of the identicon anyway.

user image

Wow google very bold of you to assume I like going outside

Clearly my privacy measures are working

Redwolf Programs

I came up with an awesome name for a challenge, I just need to figure out what the challenge itself should be about now

Okay then give us the name and we can suggest ideas

Redwolf Programs

No, it's a secret :p

10:15 PM

user image

10:33 PM

@RedwolfPrograms no, just change it to "the redWolf proGrams"

with or without the capitalization

Redwolf Programs

@Wezl Why not commit to it fully and change it to tHe rEdWoLf pRoGrAmS

When you're 1 rep away from a multiple of 10 but you can't do anything because the only downvote you have is on a question: [thumbs up crying cat]

Redwolf Programs

Suggest an edit to a tag wiki, then downvote an answer

downvote this one please

Redwolf Programs

@Lyxal Oh hey, I actually knew about the meme in your CGCC profile this time without having to google it

10:46 PM

@Wezl Are you sure about that?

of course not, I'm never sure

@RedwolfPrograms "No, it's a secret :p" sounds like an odd name for a challenge. Perhaps a CnR where the robbers find the cops' secrets? :P

"I'm not sure I'm Wezl"

which also has a different meaning :P

I am sure that I'm Wezl

You're Wezl until proven not Wezl

schroedinger's wezl?

10:48 PM

@Wezl I honestly don't have any funny responses for this because it's confused me that much

4

@Lyxal What's the Linda H. meme mean?

Redwolf Programs

@user youtube.com/watch?v=778a3Xk4jLs

There's an example

@user shot on iPhone

I know the (not not not) best username ...

Ah, I get it now, although I'm not sure what the Linda H part is

Redwolf Programs

10:52 PM

There were these commercials for iphones y'see

Linda H is the most used name in the memes

Yeah, I get that part

@Lyxal Oh ok

shot on iPhone meme compilation

You'll notice that most memes say that Linda H shot the clip

Redwolf Programs

Considering dropping ⟨ and ⟩ from Ash's code page

Yes, she seems to be very prolific :P

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The Nineteenth Byte

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