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12:01 AM
If it hadn't been for Crab, I guess Low Blow would also be at the top of the leaderboard by wins
Do you know how the combined leaderboard is calculated?
ordered_all = sorted(contestants, key=lambda x: [y[0] for y in ordered_score].index(x) + [y[0] for y in ordered_wins].index(x))
I'm thinking of a Crab-like bot that quits a little later to get a few more points and get higher up on the leaderboard.
@cairdcoinheringaahing Thanks
Looks like it gets the index in the other two leaderboards and sorts by their sum
I do note that the leaderboard doesn't handle ties
That's not a huge problem, though
There don't seem to be any bots with the same score
4: Shortcut with 5/10 wins
5: Naiive with 5/10 wins
12:04 AM
Might want to let the OP know about that, then
@user I brute forced it, and 48 is the optimal value to return
5: Zoidberg with 534528 points
(I called it Zoidberg)
Oh nice
I guess the 48 is probably because of Hardcode?
Not sure, but probably
I adjusted Low Blow to accommodate Zoidberg and Zoidberg's score went way down (still 5th tho):
5: Zoidberg with 436512 points
It's pretty good with wins as well though:
4: Zoidberg with 6/11 wins
Places 5th overall
12:16 AM
But not as good as Crab ;)
Crab places 6th :P
With wins?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh yeah Crab is pretty bad overall
Thinking about getting back to work on Hunter-Gatherer KotH
12:17 AM
If you want to win in life, though, there's an important lesson to be learnt here: Be mean to everyone, even if it comes at the expense of your own happiness. It will pay off later.
I think Hunter-Gatherer's going to be an interesting KotH, because it's intentionally complicated and full of different mechanics. The goal is for there to be lots more specialization and strategy than most KotHs.
ok how do I even run this?
(the koth)
no, counting
12:20 AM
For the Python one, run arena.py
You should probably do update.py first, though
Today +520
That's definitely not correct
If I could get +520 in 20 minutes, I'd be Dennis levels of rep
I'm starting to get the hang of the SE API, I'm almost considering making something like SEDE, but with something nice instead of SQL, and access to more data (and more up to date data)
@user Sorry to kinda steal your idea, I'm doing some more bruteforcing to double check the optimal score (ugh, randomness). You're free to post it as a bot if you want. If not, do you mind if I do?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Not at all
My first bot was bad enough, I don't think I'm going to do KotH's for a while :P
12:24 AM
rats, update.py overwrote my submission
Hmm, a meta strategy by Redwolf Programs - destroy opponents' bots as they're being tested :P
I should update it so that it only deletes bots that don't still exist after confirming with the user
fortunately I had it backed up, and it was simple anyway
Oh, that's good
12:26 AM
What's your strategy?
wow, it acts like crab but worse
And does this mean I have to make another adjustment to Low Blow to stay on top? :P
I just have to make one in hy to protest against python
I considered writing it inside of BF, inside of hy
Hmm, I should make one in Java and then run the Python files as JPython just to spite those Pythonistas :P
I'm not sure whether I hate java or python more :/
maybe python cause I've actually tried it
12:30 AM
Come to the Scala side, I promise you'll love it
I don't like python
I like Python when I'm using it for tiny things, but I hate it when I have to make an entire project with it and have everything crash
That said, I prefer it to JS
I was going to clarify why I dislike it but it seems like everyone already gets it :p
I've used JS so long it somehow feels natural
Where's that meme that goes:
Non python users: Python sucks
Python users: You should try it (or smth like that)

Python users: Python sucks
Python users: Yes
I guess if you typed on a keyboard where all the keycaps were made of broken glass you'd eventually get used to it and normal keyboards would be difficult to use because you can't feel the sharp sting to know you've hit the key hard enough
12:33 AM
@RedwolfPrograms I would like JS a lot more with stronger typing and type annotations
Typescript maybe
Never used it but it's popular
@RedwolfPrograms That seems a little extreme - JS isn't that bad, but yeah
the slowness is horrible enough, indentation, no TCO, etc. just make it worse
TS is pretty cool, but I had to make a gulpfile and then use Babel to turn it into ES5 and stuff, and it was extremely annoying
All of you are ignoring the superior language: Jelly
12:34 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing >(((((((((((((( Flagged as offensive
@user I ended up putting most of my code in JS stuck in my EJS file
Tbf I know nothing of web development
CMP: What is/are your favorite/favourite language(s) and why?
JS, because it's familar
No other reasons?
I like the type system
Someone ban Redwolf
@user Yes, running it with 47 or 49 puts it below Hard-coded
12:39 AM
@user Scala, because it's so expressive
Interestingly, 49 puts it below FunnyNumber, which seems wrong
typeof {} == typeof null && typeof {} == typeof [] && typeof {} == typeof /.+/ && typeof {} == typeof new Number(20)
@cairdcoinheringaahing That bot will haunt you forever
It just makes sense, y'know?
@RedwolfPrograms Not all of us can stretch our minds like that
12:40 AM
@user It's a one-off joke, it'll be mostly forgotten in a week, a month at longest :P
That's some 6D thinking
@cairdcoinheringaahing The public may forget it, but can you live with it?
@RedwolfPrograms What does typeof null == typeof /.+/ return?
Can you sleep at night knowing the crimes you've committed?
Wait why?
12:41 AM
Why not?
@user I've made enough 69/420 jokes before, yes :P
JS is actually being helpful here, it's telling you not to use regex :P
It actually kinda makes sense, they're both objects.
Take everything you think you know about data types and put it in a carefully labeled box. Burn it and read ten paragraphs about why JS is so broken. Understand.
@user Technically null isn't an object
It's one of the few things that aren't
@user obv the ones I'm writing
plus scheme is nice
and lua
@RedwolfPrograms Meh, in Java, it ain't a primitive, so I'm gonna call it an object :P
12:43 AM
But a bug in an old browser made it considered an object by JS
prolog is cool so that too
@Wezl How's Concurr coming?
Do you think null.toString() and String(null) do the same thing?
(no trying it)
@Wezl Why? (asking because I might want to try it, not because I think it isn't good)
No, if they did it'd be too sensible
12:43 AM
@RedwolfPrograms No
The first one errors because null is one of the two things that isn't an object sort of. Primitives have properties, at least.
One throws a NPE, other makes ???
@user apl because it's quick to write, powerful, and pretty fast, and python because it's just good at doing any old crap
@user it's super simple, plus tail call optimization is it's own reward (can't wuickly find the xkcd)
@Wezl Ooh, TCO is nice. Is it just for direct tail calls or also for the wonkier kind?
@user wonkier kind?
it optimizes all tail calls, not just recursive tail calls if that's what you're asking
Oh ok
12:47 AM
it has a nice jit too
Scala can only optimize recursive tail calls normally, you need trampolines if it's not recursive :(
@Wezl What's its performance like?
Why wouldn't you just optimize any tail calls? is there a particular reason?
JVM :(
Java needs it for legacy reasons - older applications sometimes look at the stacktrace for stuff
@RedwolfPrograms harder, especially if compiling to something like Java or C that doesn't have them
so you use trampolines or pure CPS or something, which is slower
12:50 AM
Not optimizing them away can be a feature
it's not worth it IMO
gtg eat dinner
me too :)
just gonna submit to koth
12:54 AM
seems to be a bit of a useless tag, no? I think maybe 2 of the questions with it are specifically about clarification, rather than asking for clarification, which is the entire point of posting a meta question
Sandbox posts last active a week ago: (untitled), Getting to the root of the problem, (untitled)
1:11 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing is it disrespectful to capitalize your name?
@Wezl no, why?
well the code that generates it doesn't output it capitalized ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
argh, my hy solution breaks the controller
or maybe I should say, python can't deal with the superiority of lisp :P
1:42 AM
@user look at the comments here, I'll try to find one that actually showcases lua
above the first section
2:07 AM
I mean above the second section, 1-based indexing is so annoying
2:23 AM
The recursion limit on my browser matches /1+3+7+/, that's pretty 1337
2:34 AM
I lost a staring contest with a baby today
This is sad
2:47 AM
@Lyxal What happened?
@Wezl Thanks, both lua and wren sound interesting
@user okay so I was sitting in church and the person in front of me was holding her baby in a way so that the baby was looking right at me. So the most logical thing i thought to do was to see if i could outstare the baby. i failed by blinking first
3:10 AM
3:22 AM
@Lyxal well obviously you did... babies can't blink
I knew they were robots
Beware of babies...they're planning something
I don't know what, but they've had millions of years to come up with a way to take over
@RedwolfPrograms Luckily, their plans never come to fruition because they turn into us and have too much homework to scheme
Turns out it's really hard to mount a revolution when after a few years you automatically switch to the opposing side
2 hours later…
5:44 AM
@RedwolfPrograms team autobalance
1 hour later…
7:07 AM
Hi everyone
Pls give some feedback on this (sandboxed challenge)[https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2140/sandbox-for-proposed-challenges/22020#22020]
@Wasif Markdown doesn't work in multi-line msgs.
@Adám Then should I use two different messages
Yes. They'll be merged visually.
@Wasif What does a. b mean?
See the note
If you're using MathJax, why not use a proper multiplication sign?
7:09 AM
Because . also means multiplication!
So do you think should i change to *
Surely not a low dot. ∙ or ×
Never use * for multiplication in traditional mathematical notation. That's an abomination.
Thank you for the suggestion I have edited the question
@Wasif I don't understand the grammar of the sentence beginning "Your program might take".
Same with the next sentence, "And it can".
Should it say "if it returns"?
Or "if you return"?
Same thing with "if it prints" or "if you print".
My native language is not english, so grammatical errors occur. I changed "can" to "must not take any input", and the first two conditions can take input. And it has to print the results
Hope its clear now
Still invalid grammar.
7:15 AM
You still need "you" after the trailing "if"s.
Or add "it" and change the "print"s to "prints"s.
Ok. is there in a general problem i mean problem with the challenge itself
Still reading…
@Wasif With your latest edits, you now consistently speak of "program" and "print". Consider hinting that even "function" and "return" are valid.
Is this sentence clear for that "Function and return are valid, if you move the Function calls and printing to TIO footer."
I'd say that's way too specific.
I'd simply change "program" to "program/function" and "print" to "print/return". You can remove that newly added line.
7:21 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

WasifMeeker numbers sequence code-golf,math,number-theory Meeker numbers are a 7 digit number in form of \$abcdefg\$, where \$a×b=10c+d\$ and \$d×e=10f+g\$. As an example \$6742612\$ is a meeker number, here \$6×7=10×4+2\$ and \$2×6=10×1+2\$, so it is a meeker number. The Challenge Your program will ...

ok edited
For readability, I'd add "the" before "meeker" in the post body.
done it too
@Wasif Is there a particular reason you ask for the nth number or all numbers in the sequence? Why distil the challenge to its essence and only require determining if a given 7-digit number is a meeker number?
@Adám Then wouldn't the challenge be too easy?
7:25 AM
Not really, only less cumbersome. Looping over all 7-digit numbers is trivial, but a bother.
In case you keep the "nth" requirement, you should specify whether 0-indexed or 1-indexed or up to the answerer.
@Adám Sorry but I would like to keep the old format. And nth requirement is 0-indexed.
I have edited the question again
@Wasif No problem. Is there a particular reason you insist on 0-based rather than leaving it up to the answerer?
Not in particular, but then if 0 or 1 indexed the results might vary
But i'm free to change the 0 or 1 indexed rule
Both true.
OK so changed to both 0-1 indexed to leave it to the answerer
7:32 AM
I'd add a couple of test cases, and also write how many numbers there are in the complete sequence.
@Adám ok, thank you for doing that
For doing what?
adding test cases
:-) I wrote "I'd" meaning "I would" if I were you. I didn't write "I'll" as in "I will" write them for you.
Everyday i am learning new english grammar
7:35 AM
Another benefit of writing code golf challenges :-D
Then i would write a brute force program to do that today/tommorow
Wait, you didn't solve the problem yourself‽
that's why I have sandboxed it
Always solve your challenges yourself before posting them.
OK, though I'll not post it in main unless i solve it myself
7:41 AM
@Wasif Is 0000000 a meeker number?
LOL didn't thought it before
Technically it is
That's what the sandbox is for :-)
@Wasif Depends if leading 0s are allowed.
Then i would like to disallow leading 0s
If so, I can find 900 meeker numbers.
And good news counting the meekers is done
In total there are 900
Here's the python program

    for _ in range(10**6,9999999):
         s = str(_)
         if((int(s[0])*int(s[1]))==((10*int(s[2]))+int(s[3])) and (int(s[3])*int(s[4]))==((10*int(s[5]))+int(s[6]))):
7:46 AM
You can't use ``` like that.
Instead, edit your msgs and press Ctrl+K.
Oh now the final makeup is ready
I added first few meeker numbers and banned leading 0s in them
@Wasif Here's my APL program:
+/{(×⌿⍵[0 1,⍪3 4])≡10⊥⍵[2 3,⍪5 6]}⍤1⍉10⊥⍣¯1⊢1e6↓⍳1e7
Haha you already prepared the solution
No, this just counts them, and isn't golfed.
Should I keep it whole 3 days there? (I think most flaws are fixed)
7:51 AM
Are you in a rush?
I usually recommend a week, plus announcing here like you did.
Then keeping it 3 days will be ok
"And it must not take input if you print/return"
Some languages cannot have no-input functions.
It isn't clear if by "must not" you mean "doesn't need to" or "is prohibited from".
@Wasif You didn't amend "all the numbers" to "all the 900 numbers".
@Adám For that is this sentence ok: "And it cannot take input if you (If your language does not support input less functions, then you can take an input, but can't use it)"
And i have changed to "All the 900 numbers"
@Wasif It is, but is also a but cumbersome to read. Why not just put the parenthesised sentence below the bullet point?
@Wasif Then you can remove "(The sequence is finite)".
1 hour later…
9:03 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

WasifR.E.P.A.I.R. T.H.E. K.E.Y.B.O.A.R.D. code-challenge, string. restricted-source Sequel of this AWESOME challenge You, genius tech prodigy detective, have successfully disarmed the bomb. You found the computer contains a lot of confidential information regarding the evil organization. Now you want ...

9:13 AM
^ Can you give some more feedback pls?
@Wasif "remaining your" → "remaining on your"
"your buddy says that have also set" → "your buddy says that they have also set"?
"and no time" → "and there's no time"?
"creating as much as possible programs for the 34 characters in password." → "creating as many programs as possible using the 34 characters on the keyboard."?
ok fixed the typos, actually our brain is used to read the typos normally
So you're saying there's no need to fix them?
I'd disagree. Only the author is used to read them, because he knows what he means.
no i didn't mean that
"You have to write as much as programs possible in the same language, that print the keys in password. But you can only use the keys which remain in your keyboard." needs a lot of help.
9:21 AM
@Adám there is not 34 characters on keyboard, just a few
@Adám see HELP MODE at the end :P
You don't need to make all 34 programs
@Wasif OK, then you definitely need to fix the text, because that's not clear at all.
Should I bring the HELP MODE to the top
It isn't clear to me at all what that help mode is about.
HELP MODE can give you any three keys you want
To help you
But not any SHIFT+ or CTRL+ like multi key combination
Right, but do you always get three extra characters, or is that a different category of answers?
@NewSandboxedPosts I'm curious: What kind of keyboard layout do you use? " on Shift+2 is common on European language keyboards, but do you really have < and > to the left of Z?
@Wasif I don't understand the objective at all.
9:28 AM
@Adám the objective is to write as many as possible programs you can using those keys+HELP MODE keys
@Wasif As many programs as possible that do what? Anything?
Each program output one key in password
So never more than 35 programs, correct?
35? isn't it 34
Are you clear about the objective now
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35
6 7 8 9 0 - = y u  i  o  p  [  ]  h  j  k  l  ;  '  \  v  b  n  m  ^  &  *  (  )  _  +  :  "  |
9:32 AM
oh then it's 35
I think I understand now, but your challenge text needs a lot of work.
You mean wording and the story?
The story obviously doesn't matter.
@Wasif On my keyboard, I cannot produce " using the given keys. Am I still allowed to use "?
@Wasif My keyboard has no < or > key (they are produced with Shift+, and Shift+. so what are the rules then for me?
@Adám try help mode then
@Wasif I don't understand. Is the challenge relative to the answerer's keyboard or not?
@Wasif On my keyboard, Ctrl+q produces ? so am I allowed to use that?
And if not, then what exactly is the Ctrl included for?
9:39 AM
you can use then
This makes it impossible to compare answers.
E.g.: Am I allowed to choose a computer/keyboard layout that makes this easier?
How about using a single fixed keyboard layout
How about using a single fixed list of characters, except you must choose an additional 3 missing characters that you can use?
@Adám a single fixed list is already made isn't it? And it is not obligatory to take help mode
@Wasif If so, then it isn't very clear. I suggest a total rewrite of the challenge:
> Using only the characters fillincharactershere plus three additional characters of your choice, generate as many of the following characters as you can: 7890-=yuiop[]hjkl;'\vbnm^&*()_+:"|
9:42 AM
Just now got this comment on main by @StackMeter
This is a very good challenge, apart from one thing - help mode is FAR too overpowered. I could take +, * and h (in Python), and write the password as chr(1+1+1.....) +chr(1+1+1.....) and write all of the characters that way, using multiplication to ease the process. Though, without it, I think this becomes a very interesting challenge, especially for languages like Befunge-98/<><, which would be unable to do as such. An idea would be to ban +/*, or add a penalty for using it, though I'm just throwing ideas around at this point, so take my up
You also need to think hard about the scoring.
@Wasif Yes, I saw that. So?
@Adám should I reduce the number of help mode keys then
@Wasif I don't know. Whatever number you choose, it'll be problematic for some languages. E.g. in BF I think you can print any fixed number using only + and . and in Whitespace you never need anything but Tab, Space, and Enter.
@Wasif It isn't clear if both uppercase and lowercase are permitted from e.g. the Q key.
@Wasif Do you really mean · and not # or £ or something? What kind of keyboard do you have‽
@Adám both upper and lower cases are permitted
Ah, a Spanish keyboard, isn't it?
@Wasif That wasn't clear. Much better to write a simple list of characters.
9:54 AM
@Adám Full list: 12345QWERTASDFG<>ZXCqwertasdfgzxc!@#$% Tab, shift, space, enter
I have edited the list to question
@Adám I have QWERTY keyboard
@Wasif I don't see your edit.
@Wasif Sure, but it is a Spanish layout, no? The key next to backspace has upside-down ? and ! right?
I forgot to click Save button
And i changed help mode to take only one key
@Wasif OK, now I see it, but it conflicts with the (too verbose, imo) backstory.
For avoiding confliction i added (Characters are case insensitive, you can use lowercases like a, s, d... too) line in the back story
because you have Shift you can write lowercase
the challenge needs a lot of work
@Wasif It is easy to roll back edits. Can I try editing it?
10:03 AM
No problem, You are free to edit my challenges
Well, if we edit at the same time, it can get annoying :-)
Hehe i am not editing now go on
Also which is better among two

- HELP MODE can have only 1 character

- HELP MODE can have three characters, BUT if you use more than one key using HELP MODE, you need to give a -5 scoring penalty for the each two more keys
@Wasif OK, done. Have a look.
@Adám WOW it looks too good now
Often, less text is better. Especially for code golf.
10:10 AM
Question golf :P
@Wasif It still has issues. With only one fairy character, it is probably impossible in a lot of languages, and if you add more fairy characters, it probably becomes trivial in a lot of languages. This requires some thought.
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

tail spark rabbit earNon-hamming numbers code-golf number-theory Make a program, a function, or a subroutine that does one of these: takes no input to print/return a list of non-hamming positive integers, takes a positive integer \$n\$ as input to print/return \$n\$th non-hamming positive integer (in this case \$n\$...

10:41 AM
Three thoughts on fairy key, which one is better among them

- HELP MODE can have only 1 character

- HELP MODE can have 3 characters, BUT if you use more than one key using HELP MODE, you need to give a -5 scoring penalty for the each two more keys

- HELP MODE can have 3 characters, BUT if you are unable to add make more than 10 programs using the already characters, you can use the extra 2 keys penalty less
@Wasif The last one is hard to check.
I'd say "unlimited help keys, but add +10 score for each" or something like that?
@pxeger it should be -10 score, target is to make highest score as possible, do you mean that?
Then you need extensive testing to get the penalty balance right.
@Wasif oh, it's not , I see
10:44 AM
@Adám hmm... the 3rd rule gets eliminated
So what is better among 1,2 and pxeger's idea?
I'm not sure. Bonuses and penalties are usually problematic.
So your suggestion is to stick to the 1st rule, one extra key?
Not necessarily. It isn't easy to decide here.
@Wasif How did you choose which characters to allow?
I think it might be better with tbh. It's probably always gonna be possible to output all of them somehow in most languages, but code-golf gives it more of a challenge
@pxeger Isn't it all ready very challenging, making it not code-golf will give answerers' more ease to write, isn't it
10:50 AM
@pxeger In APL, you'd need need either ⎕av or ⎕ucs to convert numeric codes to characters, and neither can be used by adding one character to the permitted set.
In J, adding : gives you !: which gives access to a lot of functionality, but without any strings (no ') it'll be pretty much impossible.
@Wasif What I mean is: in the languages where it is possible to do a competitive number of the 35 characters, it will probably be possible to do them all. All the answerer has to do is find one way of outputting arbitrary characters within the constraints and then reuse it for all other characters. If you make it code golf then there's some motivation to improve on the answers, and allows you to more easily implement a penalty system for languages where it isn't possible ordinarily
11:11 AM
@pxeger ok thanks for your suggestion
11:47 AM
Q: Multiplicative Persistence #2

mathWe had a challenge on Multiplicative Persistence here. As a recap, to get a multiplicative persistence of a number, do these steps: Multiply all the digits of a number (in base \$10\$) Repeat until you have a single digit left More here on Numberphile: Numberphile "What's special about 2777777...

12:18 PM
@math reference sheet/tutorial for PyLite when?
3 hours later…
2:58 PM
14 hours ago, by caird coinheringaahing
seems to be a bit of a useless tag, no? I think maybe 2 of the questions with it are specifically about clarification, rather than asking for clarification, which is the entire point of posting a meta question
3:23 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

caird coinheringaahingSaboteurs in our Halls This is a king-of-the-hill challenge, where one member on each team attempts to sabotage their team in secret. Similar to Red vs. Blue - Pixel Team Battlebots, bots will be divided into teams, based on the user ID number of the user who posted them. Your user ID can be foun...

@cairdcoinheringaahing Burn it! Burn it with fire!
Also TIL you can hit the reply button after typing the message and it'll just insert the number thing at the beginning for you instead of overwriting it
@RedwolfPrograms 2 of the questions are specifically about clarifications (How do I get a clarification on a question? and Can we clarify the FAQ?), so it isn't entirely pointless, but it's not well-used :/
Is getting clarification not basicaslly just the point of meta?
Yeah, but I think the tag should be used on questions that get clarification about clarifications
3:38 PM
Wow another kotH in python i am so happy
00:00 - 16:0016:00 - 00:00

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