The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-03-28 (page 1 of 3)

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12:00 AM

0

Q: I'm Jelly of Python (Cops)

What does "jelly" mean in the title?. Robber's thread Jelly has an "Evaluate the argument as Python 3" atom, ŒV which takes a string as an argument as evaluates that string as Python 3 code: Try it online!. It also has compressed strings, delimited with “...» that can compress any string containi...

code-golf cops-and-robbers python jelly

@NewMainPosts the robbers thread better be called "I'm Python of Jelly"

ChartZ Belatedly

@NewMainPosts Really? You make me wait a minute between posting the Cops and the Robbers threads, but don't even wait for the Robbers?

This is irony.

ChartZ Belatedly

Bet you it takes like 10 minutes to post the Robbers thread :P

12:25 AM

1

Q: I'm Jelly of Python (Robbers)

What does "jelly" mean in the title?. Cop's thread Robbers, you are to choose an uncracked Cop answer, and attempt to find a Jelly program which is: shorter than the Cop's answer solves the linked challenge, according to the rules of the challenge So long as these two bullet points are met, you...

code-golf cops-and-robbers python jelly

ChartZ Belatedly

@NewMainPosts 23 minutes. I'm disappointed in you

can't wait for 0 safe answers

ChartZ Belatedly

Well, there's only 10 days left of "ChartZ Belatedly" before I become "caird" again :P

in Jelly Hypertraining, Nov 7 '19 at 16:16, by caird coinheringaahing

CMC: Remove the first occurrence of each element of a list of numbers. [1, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3] -> [1, 2, 1, 3]

dyalog extended: ~⍤⍧⍛/⍨

jelly: œ-Q

ChartZ Belatedly

@rak1507 Nice, that's what I had (although not what I had back in 2019) :P

12:39 AM

I didn't look, wanted to avoid spoilers

I think there's multiset difference in NARS2000 too, so it could potentially be short in that

i'm disappointed in myself

the solution i first through of was iⱮQḟ@Jị

;-;

lol

the thing is, you actually know jelly, I was just like 'lol this is a multiset difference with the unique elements I bet jelly has builtins for both things' and it does! no skill required ~~just like every jelly solution~~

my first thought was "it would be nice to just use Q and then remove them but only once" but i just thought the second part was not short enough to be viable

in Jelly Hypertraining, Jul 27 '17 at 21:44, by totallyhuman

jelly is really just a game of atom hide and programmer seek

lol so true

ChartZ Belatedly

Me, Unrelated String and Mr Xcoder found multiple 5 byte solutions, but no 3 byte one :P

12:42 AM

noobs

ChartZ Belatedly

@HyperNeutrino Bullshit. Sometimes quicks get involved :P

Jelly programs with just atoms are easy, it's those damn quicks that complicate everything :P

true :P

I feel like there must be a shorter apl solution but I can't find it so oh well

quicks are necessary for jelly's turing completeness, right?

ChartZ Belatedly

Yeah, otherwise it can't loop

Although, I suppose not, as V might be able to recurse, and ŒV can execute arbitrary python code

12:45 AM

oh wait yeah eval atom exists

lol

iS jElLy turing complete with just quicks /s

wait actually

since there are zero-argument quicks

nah this probably can't work

ChartZ Belatedly

Wait, there's no way to do any kind of condition branching without quicks, so Jelly (ignoring ŒV) needs quicks to be TC

could you get around that with logical AND/OR short-circuiting?

dzaima APL: ~∘⍧⌿⊢

ChartZ Belatedly

@HyperNeutrino Nope, because you'd need either Ç or one of $ to do anything that used more than 1 atom

(as µ doesn't work with short-circuiting)

Ignoring ŒV, is Jelly TC?

Like, probably, but has it been proven?

someone has probably done brainfuck in jelly so yes

12:49 AM

what's sufficient to prove TC

implement R110?

ChartZ Belatedly

Implement brainfuck

I typically look at this answer

(FYI, there isn't a Jelly answer for that question)

lol js is fantastically weird

ChartZ Belatedly

No Jelly answer here either :P

could you cheese it with V? (probably, but idk if it would actually be easy)

ChartZ Belatedly

That was my thinking

Transpile then eval is Jelly's forte in interpreter chalenges

12:54 AM

Here's a potentially easier challenge for proving TC: Volatile

ChartZ Belatedly

Turn it into a series of monadic links which pass the tape to each other. Implement > as rotating the tape so that the tape head is always the first element

1:10 AM

@NewMainPosts well this is going well

1 hour later…

2:12 AM

0

Q: Introducing OldSandboxPosts

My name is OldSandboxPosts and I am a chatbot written by caird coinheringaahing and hosted by Redwolf Programs. My source code an be found here. Every day, at 1:00am UTC time, I log onto Stack Exchange, find Sandbox proposals that have been inactive for a week and post a chat message linking to t...

discussion feature-request chat

Redwolf Programs

I hit 9k!

this is very good

I am very happy with this

now you just need to make ash

finish making that is

Redwolf Programs

I just need to work up the motivation to work on the parser. It scares me.

2:57 AM

@RedwolfPrograms gg

Redwolf Programs

3:17 AM

@rak1507 I seriously disagree that golfing in Jelly requires no skill

it was ~~mostly~~ a joke

Redwolf Programs

I ~~mostly~~ know, it just annoys me when people talk about golfing languages like that

And there are a lot of people who actually do think that's true of golfing languages

It's true of Vyxal!

You just mash built-ins together

and it does stuff

;p

\s

@RedwolfPrograms for trivial challenges, it is true, doesn't stop them getting 3579 upvotes

oh boy

Redwolf Programs

3:21 AM

But golfed answers also get unfair downvotes for being golfing langs

skill correlation to deserving and receiving votes is a whole other can of worms

Redwolf Programs

Agreed

yeah true

Redwolf Programs

For this site, the amount of rep given by upvotes really should be based on the voter's reputation IMO

And maybe even have it affect the vote count itself

that would be an interesting change

Redwolf Programs

3:25 AM

I am going to track down whoever decided apostrophes go next to the enter key and send them a strongly worded letter

@RedwolfPrograms include me in the letter too

I'd like to send my opinion too

Redwolf Programs

It'd probably get sent before I meant to though

that's what i call funny

yeah it's pretty annoying how often i'm writing something and accidentally send it early because i

5

@RedwolfPrograms this would be an interesting system

3:30 AM

@HyperNeutrino it seems your message got a bit cut of

it'd probably have to be a floating point number underneath but show up rounded down

something like ELO, but it never goes down

@Lyxal yeah i was trying to hit the apostrophe but my finger slipped, pretty unfortunate that the key

i usually actually end up accidentally hitting ; instead of ' when i'm typing because i'm being overly cautious of accidentally hitting enter, which is better because i can fix that but once i send it it's sent

more commonly i'll accidentally hit backslash as i hit enter and send a random backslash at the end of my message\

Redwolf Programs

I also do the ; instead of ' thing all the time

Maybe the apostrophe key just needs to be wider

Actually just replace the enter key with more apostrophe

which finger do you press ' with

Redwolf Programs

Whichever one I'm typing with at the time :p

3:39 AM

lol :P

i pretty consistently use my right index finger

which now that i think about it

is probably one of the worst fingers i could use other than my thumb

Redwolf Programs

I usually use my middle fingers to type

oh like you type with just two fingers? huh

Redwolf Programs

I've done it for so long I can type that way without looking for a while

that's pretty interesting

I type with both hands but it's not touch typing it's some weird thing that just automatically developed

3:42 AM

i usually don't use my 5th finger except to hit ctrl/shift but my finger positioning is pretty unconventional i think

at least it's very far off of what any typing course i can find online would recommend lol

Redwolf Programs

I don't golf a pencil correctly either

*hold

have you tried sharpening it? that usually shortens it by a bit

also long as you can write it's correct

@HyperNeutrino removing the eraser helps as well

idk if how i hold my writing utensils is "correct" or not but it works, i guess :P

@Razetime true. also obligatory -1 with jQuery

Redwolf Programs

I sort of put the pencil on top of my ring finger, and hold it in place with the three above it

It might be part of why my handwriting more resembles abstract art

3:46 AM

huh

so like, the position you'd hold the lower chopstick in?

(just occurred to me that that may not make any sense, so nvm if it doesn't lol)

@HyperNeutrino does sound like it

Redwolf Programs

4:35 AM

Any feedback on Reverse Zip Bomb?

5:01 AM

I think it looks good

compression algorithms are basically bijections from any string of bits to a subset of all strings of bits, right? so every compression algo has to have something that compresses to larger than the original data?

Redwolf Programs

Yep, and hopefully some that are a lot larger for this to be interesting :p

intuition tells me that the better a compression algorithm is for general data with normal patterns, the worse its worst case will be, but idk if that makes any sense :P

5 hours later…

9:37 AM

Should integer be merged with number?

It seems to me that all number posts can be replaced by one or more of integer math or number-theory

Unrelated String

10:11 AM

(also sequence)

No, not necessarily. Not all sequences are of numbers (example), and not all number questions are about sequences (example).

Unrelated String

you mentioned number-theory so figured you weren't going for total overlap lol

oh ok

New Sandboxed Posts

10:36 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Fibonacci Encoding code-golf fibonacci coding-theory integer binary Fibonacci coding is a universal code, which can encode positive integers of any size in an unambiguous stream of bits. To encode an integer \$ n \$: Find the largest Fibonacci number less than or equal to \$ n \$; subtract this ...

ChartZ Belatedly

11:05 AM

@pxeger math is a useless tag

number is typically about the manipulation of numbers, which is fairly broad and could probably be merged with other tags, but math is so much worse

11:34 AM

I think it's worth keeping math for when it's an unusual problem that doesn't fit in a specifically named area of maths that has its own tag

@NewSandboxedPosts Any feedback?

2 hours later…

Redwolf Programs

1:28 PM

@ChartZBelatedly I disagree, it's useful to be able to filter out challenges related to math (if that's what you're good at or want to work on), which is the whole point of tags

Broad tags aren't really that much of a problem here IMO, since there's such a wide array of topics a challenge can be about using a bunch of narrowly focused tags would just be annoying

ChartZ Belatedly

2:03 PM

@RedwolfPrograms FYI, Quick Comments doesn't work on meta

It's a quick fix (add in // @match https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/*) but thought you should know

2:17 PM

@ChartZBelatedly On Puzzling SE, some tags are called subtags, and if B is a subtag of A, it is recommended to put A together with B when B is an appropriate tag

So number-theory, geometry, etc are subtags of math in this sense

I think the guideline should be the same for CGCC (I always do so with my challenges)

ChartZ Belatedly

I sometimes include math if I feel like I don't have enough tags, but generally I'll just add a couple of it's "subtags" that are more relevant

I'm browsing through the [Meta.SE [code-golf] tag](meta.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/code-golf), and some of the answers are truly something

"Can we raise the rep gained for questions on certain sites, to reflect the effort put in on Code Golf?" got this as an answer:

> The question asker already enjoys a substantial benefit beyond reputation gain from upvotes on their question — namely, they get great answers to their question! Thus, the asker shouldn’t need as much reputation gain.

Unrelated String

2:38 PM

🤔

ChartZ Belatedly

Just an FYI, in case anyone else had noticed this :P

Unrelated String

there's something I find oddly funny about our question count being immediately between Islam and anime

0

Q: Footer text is hard to read on meta

The styling of the footer on codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com is very low contrast and the text is hard to read, especially the list subtitles. I have selected some of the text "NETWORK", which helps, but this still needs to be fixed. Here is a screenshot - or just scroll down a bit ;) I'm using ...

user image

6

Unrelated String

@rak1507 ...okay that actually makes sense now that I know what the article is

2:45 PM

lol

ChartZ Belatedly

3:16 PM

@rak1507 What article is that from?

Unrelated String

Alpha and Omega

Alpha (Α or α) and omega (Ω or ω) are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, and a title of Christ and God in the Book of Revelation. This pair of letters is used as a Christian symbol, and is often combined with the Cross, Chi-rho, or other Christian symbols. == Origin == The term Alpha and Omega comes from the phrase "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (Koiné Greek: "ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ"), an appellation of Jesus and of the Father in the Book of Revelation (verses 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13). The first part of this phrase ("I am the Alpha and the Omega") is first found in Chapter 1 verse...

ChartZ Belatedly

@rak1507 I'm not sure about his links to Christianity and Islam, but that could reasonably be about Adám :P

Unrelated String

that was also my first thought

3:59 PM

@ChartZBelatedly Adám might have added the APL section :P

Original Original Original VI

@rak1507 I love that the 5th point says "A Programming Language programming languagë

@Wasif Maybe

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Yes! I told right, A.Brud ( Adám Brudzewsky ) wrote the APL section!

Original Original Original VI

lol

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI By the way, is this answer eligible for the +300 bounty criteria (Plus I think another powershell answer there will receive a +100 bounty) from you?

Original Original Original VI

@Wasif It is, let me start a bounty (sorry, I forgot I'd awarded one and could start another)

4:10 PM

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI thank you

Original Original Original VI

@Wasif No problem, keep the answers coming!

CMQ: What is the longest answer you have ever written?

Original Original Original VI

@Wasif On Code Review, this one.

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI No only on CGCC (It's very helpful though)

Original Original Original VI

@Wasif On CGCC, this one (don't scroll to the end, because it's 59,599,717,533,291,089,242,285,960,261,852 bytes)

@Wasif The CR answer? You finished reading it already?

4:24 PM

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI just scrolled to the end, anyone could say it helpful by its length

Original Original Original VI

@Wasif Oh ok

A long answer isn't necessarily more helpful, but thanks

ChartZ Belatedly

@Wasif Can it be not on CGCC, but still a code bowling answer?

@ChartZBelatedly yeah, any answe in this site

ChartZ Belatedly

@Wasif Probably this

Or this on CGCC

Actually I loved the underhanded, code-bowling, code-trolling, popularity contests, but I wonder why they are not allowed

Original Original Original VI

4:29 PM

Popularity contests and code bowling still happen

ChartZ Belatedly

Code trolling were awful, I can't stress that enough

Original Original Original VI

Code trolling seemed to invite low-quality answers

@ChartZBelatedly ^

ChartZ Belatedly

No, low quality questions

and underhanded was basically code trolling under a different name

ChartZ Belatedly

59

Q: Trolls in our Halls

In Stack Exchange portal, it says: Stack Exchange is a fast-growing network of 112 question and answer sites on diverse topics from software programming to cooking to photography and gaming. We build libraries of high-quality questions and answers, focused on the most important topics in each ar...

feature-request status-declined hot-questions

4:30 PM

Opinion varies, but are there other sites, where we can browse and ask these kind of question

ChartZ Belatedly

We got told on for code trolling :P

Original Original Original VI

@Wasif Reddit, maybe?

ChartZ Belatedly

Underhanded and code trolling were banned because 1) they kept attracting low quality, low effort questions that were basically "Do X, but not really" and 2) they weren't friendly questions. As much as we stretch it, Stack Exchange is designed to be a place for learning and helpful Q&A. Code golf, arguably, does that. Code-trolling and underhanded were just about tricking people, which doesn't help anyone

Original Original Original VI

Btw, do we allow programming-themed puzzles with a limited number of possible answers, or do those belong on Puzzling.SE?

ChartZ Belatedly

Bit of an edge case

Original Original Original VI

4:34 PM

Over the edge or barely on the edge? :P

ChartZ Belatedly

They could go on either :P

What's the puzzle?

Original Original Original VI

Would it be an edge case on Puzzling.SE too?

@ChartZBelatedly Don't have it made yet :P

ChartZ Belatedly

I think so. They allow computer puzzles IIRC, but you'd be better off asking in The Sphinx's Lair

Original Original Original VI

@ChartZBelatedly Thanks. Since I don't actually have the question made yet, I'll ask when I'm done

@ChartZBelatedly another reason underhanded and code-trolling were banned is that the answers are mostly independent of the questions, if you come up with a clever way to troll and/or to be underhanded you can probably use it on any of the questions just as well, so the questions were all duplicates of each other by our normal definition

@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI there's programming-puzzle but it's very rare for anyone to create a good one, and they're generally better-received at Puzzling than they are here; that's part of the reason we took "Programming Puzzles" out of our name

also it has some fairly strict requirements on how to ask a question

@HyperNeutrino why not use a UK keyboard? we have a whole extra, rarely used key (#) between ' and Return (the main situation in which I press Return by mistake is when I'm trying to press Backspace)

also our keyboard contains every character in EBCDIC, for reasons which probably made sense at the time

most notably ¬

ChartZ Belatedly

4:55 PM

@ais523 I use a UK keyboard, and I very often use ; instead of ', but press ] before Enter a decent amount

yes, accidental hits of ] can be a problem

@ais523 Oh that's interesting. I mean, could consider, but it'd probably just end up moving the problem to somewhere else.

I think the problem isn't the keyboard, it's that I'm bad :P

classic problem exists between keyboard and chair

You won't have this 'problem' if you'd just stop using apostrophe's :')

just type in morse code since then you only have to hit four keys total

do a Jelly and use ‘single quotes’ instead

ChartZ Belatedly

4:57 PM

Type in Unary, problem solved :P

they even look like apostrophes in the font used in chat, because it’s so small

ChartZ Belatedly

@ais523 When I'm on my phone, I use Jelly's double quotes for " because it insists on using them :/

one of my biggest regrets about Jelly is that “” don't nest

making quines without cheats or builtins is so much easier if you have a nestable quote character

Original Original Original VI

All you need is Ctrl, C, V, and a mouse.

don't even need ctrl-c/v if you have a mouse, as long as you can right-click

ChartZ Belatedly

4:59 PM

Not being able to use ‘ and ’ in strings is annoying when basically every "interpret this language" question has "increment" and "decrement" in the commands ಠ_ಠ

Original Original Original VI

Actually, even copying and pasting can be done with a mouse.

@ais523 Yeah, the mouse is the ultimate tool :P

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The Nineteenth Byte

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