The Nineteenth Byte

12:00 AM

I mean

You're going to be doing that yourself

I don't think LLVM does fields like that, it just aligns the types for you

@Mego The wall of text is a bit difficult to parse. You should break it into sections or remove information about PPCG defaults.

feersum

LLVM is more or less a more precise way of expressing C concepts.

Phoenix

Ok, It's not that hard, but I'm impatient.

Destructible Lemon

actually the implementation notes on the shatner page on esolangs is wrong

feersum

With a few extra features to support garbage collection and various optimizations.

Destructible Lemon

12:02 AM

I think I might make an interpreter for shatner++ or something

Downgoat

@feersum well I mean there is always pre-processor hacks :P

Anonymous

@Phoenix There's only two links to PPCG policies, because they are very relevant, and the rules are broken up into relevant bullet points, not as a giant wall of text.

Destructible Lemon

or can someone think of a better name? maybe shatner. upgraded

Downgoat

llvm probably also has preprocessor too though

feersum

@Downgoat No...

Anonymous

12:02 AM

@DestructibleLemon Stewart

Destructible Lemon

why?

Downgoat

@feersum oh no D:

Anonymous

Because the upgrade to Shatner is Stewart

feersum

Well we should be clear what we're talking about.

I'm talking about LLVM IR.

If you talk about the whole LLVM project, there are C and C++ compilers so yes, there's a C preprocessor in there.

Destructible Lemon

idk maybe I should decide later. basically I just want ascii i/o

Downgoat

12:10 AM

@feersum can you tell me what difference between prefix & prologue is? They both seem to just put bytes before the function

feersum

@Downgoat I'm not familiar with these... what are you looking at?

Destructible Lemon

how should I delimit things? with commas still but commas are escaped? or should I use an escaped comma? or would a 2 byte char just work better?

or maybe just an unprintable

favourite two byte unicode anyone?

Jan Dvorak

U+FEFF

Phoenix

^

Destructible Lemon

12:26 AM

yeah no

Jan Dvorak

u+007c

Destructible Lemon

is that not one byte?

also i think ¢ might be good

Jan Dvorak

It's two bytes if you use UTF-16

U+0000 encoded in MUTF-8, C0 80

Wheat Wizard

1:02 AM

@ais523 For your bounty does post dating the challenge mean implementation or specification?

ASCII-only

1:14 AM

@WheatWizard Implementation, languages are defined by their implementation

Wheat Wizard

Ok I would like confirmation from the person in charge of the bounty.

ais523

1:30 AM

@WheatWizard PPCG rules say the implementation counts; note that it's only the language the solution that's written in that has to predate the challenge (the language you implement can postdate the challenge)

Wheat Wizard

I thought the language implemented must postdate the challenge

ais523

I'm willing to be lenient in cases where an implementation existed but was corrupted in some easily fixable way, as that situation's come up at least twice now (in one case I was able to fix it using a different interpreter, but not in the other)

@WheatWizard nah, it's may, not must

Wheat Wizard

Thanks for clarifying/ sorry for misunderstanding

I am hoping to implement mini-flak in brain-flak

ais523

although in most cases you'll want to change the language's syntax anyway to make it easier to parse

(thus leading to a smaller result)

miniflak in brainflak sounds like it'd be pretty impressive; it's not really what I had in mind for this bounty but it might be worth a different one

Wheat Wizard

Changing syntax so I don't have to deal with ascii would be really helpful

The bounty has piqued my interested, whether or not I win is not terribly important. I'm not very big on rep.

ais523

1:35 AM

right, I thought the question was a really good one, so when I remembered it existed, I went and drew more attention to it

err, did you put the reply mark on the right post?

the bounty'd question is this one; if you're asking for a link to something else you'll have to clarify

Wheat Wizard

Thanks to your bounty I actually found out that an older answer I had was not invalid, so thanks for that.

ASCII-only

@ais523 yeah i was asking for a link to the question but remembered it was bountied so it would have been easy to find anyway

hmm what would be the easiest TC language to implement?

Wheat Wizard

Minsky machine is an easy one

ais523

to me the difficult part of question is about finding the language that can be implemented in the golfiest way, rather than necessarily the actual implementation

Wheat Wizard

and apparently so is rule 110

ais523

1:40 AM

my Perl → Three Star Programmer answer was trivial to write the Perl for; getting my head around Three Star Programmer was rather harder

actually, I should put out a word of caution for rule 110 and the 2,3 Turing machine; they both require an infinitely long program to be Turing complete

(at least, are believed to; it's possible they could be Turing complete with a finitely long program but that hasn't been proven)

feersum

Something more than a repeating pattern in the cells?

ais523

in terms of easiest TC languages to implement, tag and cyclic tag seem to work best IME in very low-level languages; Fractran is good if you have arbitrary-precision arithmetic; Thue in languages that are good at string handling

Wheat Wizard

I was just told it needed to be arbitrarily large. Now I need to break out the paper again and find out for myself

ais523

@feersum yep; rule 110 requires a repeating pattern that changes to a fixed region then to a different repeating pattern; with the 2,3 machine it doesn't even repeat (it's a pattern that can be mechanically genereated in a fairly simple way but it isn't repeating)

in esolangs.org's chat, we talk about "sequential tag" sometimes, which is the language that both those constructions implement

it's like cyclic tag but it doesn't repeat the program; rather, the program is infinitely long

so no sort of loop is required

feersum

Seems like obvious cheating to me.

Downgoat

1:44 AM

Question: what's a notation to describe an N-dimentional array with elements of type T?

ais523

anyway, I never published the final version of the 2,3 Turing machine paper because this sort of infinite program falls into a grey area in the definition of Turing completeness, and the exact sort of Turing completeness in use was never fully defined

user165474

@DJMcMayhem music.stackexchange.com/users/104/dr-mayhem

ASCII-only

@Downgoat T + [] n times?

ais523

@Downgoat in what language? normally it'd be something like T[x][y][z] with N sets of brackets, or alternatively something like [[[T]]] again with N sets of brackets

Downgoat

I am just reffering to a general notation to refer to an array where the number of dimensions is unknown

ais523

1:46 AM

perhaps if you want to emphasize that the array is hypercube-shaped rather than ragged, you'd do something like T[,,,]

ah, I'm not sure if many languages have that

ASCII-only

@ais523 *cuboid

ais523

err, right, hypercuboid

ASCII-only

@Downgoat Why would you need that

feersum

Well, C arrays are like that.

ais523

in an earlier version of a golfing language I was working on I used the notation {T} for an unknown number of nested list wrappers around a T, but realised that that wasn't very useful as it made too much of a hole in the type system

(meaning that type inference became less useful)

so instead I'm just using special cases for [T] and [[T]]

ASCII-only

1:48 AM

@Downgoat Tensor<T, N> :P

Downgoat

I never realized how difficult writing thread-safe code was until now >_<

actually if I do spawn two node processes and share an object between them, do I need to worry about thread safety?

ASCII-only

@Downgoat I don't think the object is actually shared

It's just passed meaning a thread doesn't change the object in the other thread

Downgoat

D:

Does Python do multithreading?

feersum

It has threads, but only one can run at a time.

DJMcMayhem

@HyperNeutrino D: You've found my alter ego!

:P

Downgoat

1:59 AM

CMC: How many lines of AST do you think this generates:

public class Int: Comparable {
    public static func ==(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Bool internal
    public static func >(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Bool internal
    public static func <(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Bool internal

    public static func +(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Int internal
    public static func -(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Int internal
    public static func /(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Int internal
    public static func *(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Int internal
    public static func %(lhs: Int, rhs: Int) -> Int internal

feersum

Let's have a contest to see who can generate more LLVM IR from, say, 100 characters :P

Downgoat

is generating LLVM which only uses embedded ASM and a whole bunch of mov instructions valid?

ASCII-only

@Downgoat as in nodes? 582 literal nodes, around 800 total maybe?

user165474

@DJMcMayhem Yes. I have found your sock at last :D :P

Conor O'Brien

2:15 AM

have we had a challenge for solving a kenken puzzle? I couldn't find anything via search

New Main Posts

0

Q: A program that forgets itself

Background While a program is running on a computer, the computer needs to keep track of that program somehow, typically by either copying or mapping the compiled form of the program into memory. (Even interpreted languages do this; a few primitive languages work with source code directly, but i...

code-golf

feersum

2:37 AM

@ais523 What do you mean by a concatenative language?

Downgoat

2:49 AM

@ASCII-only answer is 11K lines

ais523

2:59 AM

@feersum it doesn't matter for the question, but the standard definition is "concatenation of programs is composition of functions", and a notable subset of concatenative languages is those for which commands operate via changing the state of the program's data (usually a stack) and then being forgotten, and loops are done via combinators (basically, making additional copies of the code and then running the extras)

examples include Forth, Joy, Underload, and 7

feersum

Oh, OK.

I was also wondering if someone made something like /// with but regexes, so the whole program can be deleted in 1 command.

ais523

I think /// is a language in which commands delete themselves as they run (although it isn't technically concatenative, the implementation uses similar principles)

quintopia

Should I repost the deleted answer from codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/118435/… ? It would be legal if I posted it, right?

feersum

Also if you do want to allow solutions that aren't machine code, the 31 arbitrary bytes requirement would make it impossible for a lot of languages.

ais523

why? they aren't inspected during the execution of the program

I should perhaps make it clear that the bytes in question don't need to pass a loading/verification stage

with any possible value

feersum

3:05 AM

Arbitarry bytes usually won't compile.

If they can really be anything.

If you try to put them in a string, there can be a delimeter, etc.

ais523

these are arbitrary bytes in the image, not in the program

like, the assumption is that the program contains a hardcoded string or the like

and then someone goes and edits the executable/bytecode to change the bytes in question

feersum

That contradicts your spec.

> the best possible score on this challenge will be 32 bytes

You don't have to have 31 bytes in the source code to have them in the image.

user165474

@quintopia You might want to ask mbomb007

user165474

Oh wait no, you created the algorithm.

user165474

Never mind then...

ais523

3:09 AM

@feersum oh, good point, the clarification there is wrong

fixed

quintopia

@HyperNeutrino My only question was whether it was deleted because it was plagiarized, or if it was deleted because it was illegal for other reasons.

ais523

(This is definitely making some sort of point about the Sandbox; the challenge was sandboxed for almost a month, with no feedback other than a single upvote, and then the feedback comes once it's posted.)

quintopia

Does anyone remember enough of the name of the challenge about prepending four spaces to each line of the input that I can search for it?

user165474

@quintopia Hm. You may want to open a meta discussion about it.

quintopia

@HyperNeutrino Seems like overkill? I figured someone here would know...

ais523

3:13 AM

@quintopia this one?

user165474

(ninja'd) >_>

DJMcMayhem

16

Q: Create a codeblock tool

When using Markup, like on the SE network, an indentation of four spaces before a line of text denotes it as part of a code block, as I hope you know. If you don't, here's an example (with . representing a space): ....Code ....More code results in Code More code The problem is, when you copy...

code-golf string whitespace

ais523

I didn't search by name, I searched for Emacs answers written by me

DJMcMayhem

Ninja'd

ais523

because I remembered I only had one, and it was on that challenge

user165474

3:13 AM

I just looked up "codeblock"

user165474

@quintopia probably, yeah. good idea to see here first, and if someone can give you an answer here, great.

feersum

@ais523 Hmm, next time I would recommend bumping it a bit. You only had one revision and people might think something untouched for a week or a month in abandoned.

ais523

why would I edit it if there's no feedback? edits are normally made in response to feedback

feersum

To make it sort at the top.

quintopia

@ais523 ty

ais523

3:15 AM

aren't edits purely to bump a post against the rules?

also, on the Sandbox, it would be fairly problematic to bump posts as that would create a huge amount of churn; there are pages and pages of posts that could do with more feedback

user165474

There's been a meta post about it, and it is discouraged.

feersum

I don't know about rules; usually it's in bad form but if you have no feedback for a week it seems justified to me.

But must of those posts have been more ore less forgotten by their authors.

If you are actively working to get it posted, it could help.

quintopia

@HyperNeutrino I searched "code block" in two separate words and "block" itself. :P

user165474

Ah. :P lol

New Meta Posts

3:29 AM

0

Q: What should be the process for updating an established consensus?

There's many cases in which someone has a question about what site policy should be, people come up with suggestions, and one of them becomes highly popular and thus is treated as a rule. So far, everything's working to plan. Sometimes, it eventually turns out that one of these rules has issues,...

discussion policy meta

New Main Posts

3:57 AM

0

Q: Generating a soccer team!

Generate the following soccer team ASCII art with the least number of bytes possible. |.| |.| |.| |.| |.| |.| |.| |.| ]^[ ]^[ ]^[ ]^[ ]^[ ]^[ ]^[ ]^[ /~`-'~\ /~`-'~\ /~`-'~\ /~`-'~\ /~`-'~\ /~`-'~\ /~`-'~\ ...

code-golf ascii-art kolmogorov-complexity

Conor O'Brien

CMC: remove all whitespace from a string (to include \r\n\f\t\v and space)

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