The Nineteenth Byte

1:24 AM

Go and try say Node.js is better than Java

??????????

JavaScript is websites.

Node.js = Olympic-level library mess, which is not any better than the JVM

You understand that abstracting from native APIs is how something is made cross platform right

That's the freaking definition.

@quartata abstracting =/= creating your own versions of them

1:25 AM

@wat Yeah, GTK is shit on Mac.

Don't bother.

@Downgoat Um, yes. Yes it is.

Pygame is pretty trash, I like Python but I can't really do anything outside of console stuff because GUI support is pretty shit

@quartata abstracting is putting layer between two things

@Qwerp-Derp Python Card

Yes.

Java -> JVM -> Native API = Abstraction

1:25 AM

It's pretty good

Java -> JVM -> Own API and UI items =/= abstractions

@Pavel > Last updated 2006

Own API -> Native API

Java -> JVM -> Own API and UI items -> Native API -> OS = Abstraction

It has to call the Native API at some point, right?

1:26 AM

It's not like it's all that different anyways.

And UI is totally different.

ninja'd

@Qwerp-Derp Works for Python 2 well enough.

Java doesn't interact with Coca

It also hates my HiDPI display

In the case of UI heavyweight components (which is using the Native API) is a terrible terrible thing.

@TuxCopter We're referring to different things when we say Native API

1:27 AM

That's what AWT does, there's a reason no one uses that.

Almost all modern UI toolkits are lightweight, not heavyweight.

Including Electron, for what it's worth.

@Downgoat It still looks like Cocoa which is all that matters. And it uses Quartz to draw it unlike GTK.

In context of Apple, API = Cocoa

@quartata GTK uses Quartz on mac

@Downgoat Yeah, no. Cocoa is just a higher level API over Quartz ultimately

@Downgoat Really?

er, it says on website

Oh, that's new. It used to need X11.

@quartata apple says it themselves but OK

1:29 AM

@Downgoat Cocoa is just GUI. So.

apple calls Cocoa "The API"

I wouldn't listen to them that much...

It's a API but point stands

They would love you to become reliant on Objective-C and Swift

@quartata oops

1:30 AM

Yeah, that's the real reason we see all these Mac-only apps.

Java is cross-platform but what I'm saying is I think it does bad job at it

Anything in particular?

A lot of things it does "wrong" it can't really change. Some of File's more esoteric bits are because of Windows for instance.

And what do you suggest we use as a cross-platform, relatively low-level language?

1) It uses giant VM which feel clunky (OK, this is personal reason) 2) it does not support HiDPI display, so everything looks absolutely horrible (or at least AWT or Javax or whatever) 3) it does not talk to Cocoa so apps viewed on Macs don't fit in

I don't use windows so can't say anything there

Works fine on Windows, I've got no issues there.

Well, some issues.

But minor ones

1:34 AM

1) JVM is heavy in terms of size but it's pretty damn good at its job. It was almost always the cutting edge of JIT (until V8, which is designed to do very different things anyways)

@Pavel C. If you don't rely too much on OS-specific APIs it's cross platform.

2) I really don't get HiDPI so I probably can't comment on that one. But you shouldn't be using Swing for games so I can't see why any form of resolution matters

yeah, it is fast but start up time isn't great

@TuxCopter C is the least portable language after Assembly.

@quartata I am on Mac so I don't know what game is

1:35 AM

3) Last I checked the OS X look and feel is indistinguishable. That was in Snow Leopard mind you

@Qwerp-Derp Oh man, I love pygame

@Pavel Nah, there are things much worse than C in terms of cross-platform (but still wayyyy more than assembly)

The existence of pygame is one of the main reasons I am a programmer today

@TuxCopter Uh, like what? (Not counting ancient languages no one uses)

$ time java Empty

real	0m0.045s
user	0m0.038s
sys	0m0.011s
$

$ time node <<< ""

real	0m0.085s
user	0m0.085s
sys	0m0.000s
$

1:36 AM

@DJMcMayhem It's still going strong, but it looks kinda outdated TBH

@Downgoat This speaks for itself pretty much.

@Pavel Modern C++ is very very easy to port across platforms.

Destructible Watermelon

halp how do I prevent bots from using a class variable?

Since the standards have incorporated much of the icky native APIs

And C too

TuxCopter said C

1:37 AM

I love Python because it's so simple to make code and start something, but I hate it because it can't really do much outside of small, simple projects

C less so.

@Qwerp-Derp It's basically Perl++ in that regard.

@quartata In my defense they are two very different languages, so this is understandable

@Qwerp-Derp Thank you for not writing OS in Python

Can I make a joke at Perl's expense?

@quartata Goodly written C code is as cross-platform as the equivalent C++ code

1:39 AM

@Downgoat What if an OS was written in Python

@Qwerp-Derp It's impossible

@TuxCopter Goodly

@Downgoat Sure. But in terms of not actually doing anything V8 should be faster.

Except if the bootloader is a python interpreter

Java uses green threads for one. It has to set up a bunch of junk.

1:40 AM

codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/111242/63187 Did I do it right?

@quartata It's not impossible Java doesn't have an if input == nil { exit(0) }

@Downgoat It doesn't.

@Qwerp-Derp Sure

@ChristopherPeart Looks correct to me I guess. Maybe try adding a hexdump of the output?

That certainly wouldn't take 45 milliseconds for a start....

Nathan Merrill

1:40 AM

@Dennis out of curiosity: how do you pass the source code to most of the interpreters? Do you write it to a file, and pass the filepath, or do you pipe it in?

But the class is valid bytecode. So it is doing stuff.

"empty" was misleading I suppose

@ChristopherPeart You should provide an xxd dump.

oh

@DJMcMayhem hexdump?

Hmm let me disassemble

1:41 AM

So you know the joke about how Chinese people name their babies by throwing a bunch of woks down a set of stairs? Perl programmers throw a keyboard down their stairs to generate their code.

I have no idea what you are talking about/how to do it

@ChristopherPeart If you're on Linux, run it through xxd

Windows

psa: msn.com/en-us/news/technology/…

$ javap -c Empty
Compiled from "empty.java"
class Empty {
  Empty();
    Code:
       0: aload_0
       1: invokespecial #1                  // Method java/lang/Object."<init>":()V
       4: return

  public static void main(java.lang.String[]);
    Code:
       0: return
}
$

@Downgoat Obviously very little code. But it's doing some stuff.

It's setting up the VM at minimum.

bit.ly/2lF4LQ2 @ChristopherPeart

ETHproductions

1:43 AM

@ChristopherPeart Too bad, I'm not traveling to the southern hemisphere this Sunday

@quartata What is javap?

@quartata Java also gets opportunity to compile

@wat Disassembles

I see

@Downgoat There's nothing to compile.

In either case.

1:43 AM

Well there is parsing

@Downgoat I don't know what JIT is, but apparantly Java uses.

Parsing the empty string sure is intensive.

nevermind that is invalid

I mean, yeah Java is faster, that doesn't stop it from being clunky :P

That's like 100 nanoseconds, tops.

@Pavel Just in time compilation

1:44 AM

We're talking C speed here remember.

Also I did note that as being personal opinion

so why don't we focus on other thing

@Pavel Do I put a hexdump of output right?

@wat I know what it is, not how it works.

The two I already answered?

@ChristopherPeart Yes

1:45 AM

> I don't know what JIT is

Oh, correction. JVM 1.2+ doesn't use green threads

@wat Sorry

It's fine

JVM still has extra machinery for monitors though. So there's additional setup

@Pavel thanks done

Dennis

1:46 AM

@NathanMerrill I use files.

also clunkyness isn't just speed

Performance is all that matters on the VM level. It's not like we're compiling to it.

More on topic: Am I allowed to ask "is X good programming thing in language Y" question on SO

@Dennis what was that whole thing about your crack?

@ChristopherPeart CnR probably

1:49 AM

@Downgoat Maybe on CR, they care more about wether you should do something rather than if you can do something.

@ChristopherPeart Dennis cracked a submission to a CnR challenge, the person who put up the original submission wanted to take it down.

@ChristopherPeart google translate detected that your submission is mostly vietnamese.

2:10 AM

@Pavel My plan was exposed!

> Tries to install .NET under wine
> WTF is wrong with me

crap wrong room

I coulda moved it for you

Destructible Watermelon

@Pavel I haven't implemented respawning yet. Should I?

Yes

2:20 AM

@Pavel Would have stared but circle was not hand drawn

3

@DestructibleWatermelon Respawning in what?

Destructible Watermelon

@ChristopherPeart my maze koth

Because the brk instruction always shows up when iOS app crashes, for some reason I always read as "bork"

I wonder what the origin of 'Bork' is.

Are you asking seriously or in jest?

Broke --> bork

2:24 AM

Actually, apparently it comes from this guy. So I learned something new:

Robert Bork

Robert Heron Bork (March 1, 1927 – December 19, 2012) was an American judge and legal scholar who advocated the judicial philosophy of originalism. Bork served as a Yale Law School professor, Solicitor General, Acting Attorney General, and a judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. In 1987, President Ronald Reagan nominated him to the Supreme Court, but the U.S. Senate rejected his nomination. Bork is acclaimed also as an antitrust scholar, where his once-idiosyncratic view that antitrust law should focus on maximizing consumer welfare has come to dominate...

I always assumed it was the Swedish Chef.

My ps -a is broken

It only shows ps and zsh

2:39 AM

Has SE released any statement about the potential leak of user passwords on SO?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

2:57 AM

@Downgoat were you serious when you pinged me recently?

Partially, I was asking if it's possible

but if it is, a compiler is always possible

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat I'm sure its possible, I'll release it if I get it to work, it will require some unique modifications, but I might make them.

I'll pink you if I ever get it to work

@Qwerp-Derp That's where Python's OO comes in

3:24 AM

> Fox New's fake expert on violent immigrants in Sweden turns out to be a violent Swedish immigrant in the US, Swedish media reports.

Anonymous

@Riker No, stars are used to say "this is interesting/significant". That was neither.

@Pavel ps aux

@Mego Imo, unless something is truly inappropriate to appear on starboard (i.e. from star spam) star clearing should not be used

I don't know context though

I don't need every proccess, just the open windows. On the other hand, pgrep finally works now, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.

Random Question: Do you think </> is a good "code" icon, as it has grown to be?

3:32 AM

@Downgoat kinda

{} is less distinctive

I always read it as "use html markup" though

I think not, because </> implies SGML, which is not programming

@wat yeah, this is true

or xml maybe?

It's maybe not the best, but it's certaintly distinctive. Nothing else is really quite as iconic.

@wat SGML is kinda like the original angle-bracket ML, that XML & HTML were derived off of

Okay so I'm in the process of making github.com/MiningPotatoes/Ohm, and I'm trying to figure out a good dictionary-compressed string system

I'm not sure how to do it in a way that isn't a direct copy of 05AB1E or Jelly

3:39 AM

Execute it as a bubblegum program?

@Pavel Can't tell if /s

Not /s. Bubblegum is good compression.

Really? How do you think it'd work with a dictionary?

I uhh... missed the dictionary bit.

:P

3:45 AM

shoco?

@wat I'd prefer something I can implement in pure Ruby

b64 zlib

Anonymous

@Downgoat That's not the guidance I was given from the other mods/ROs

4

No chrome, thats javaScript

@wat Again, dictionary?

3:49 AM

no idea

Define dictionary compression

Taking a string of characters and somehow mapping it to a dictionary of English words

Oh, that?

You would decompress the string, then map it to a dictionary.

def sss(compressed):
	decompressed = ''
	integer = from_base([code_page.find(char) + 1 for char in compressed], 250)
	while integer:
		integer, mode = divmod(integer, 3)
		if mode == 0:
			integer, code = divmod(integer, 96)
			decompressed += code_page[code + 32]
		else:
			flag_swap = False
			flag_space = decompressed != ''
			if mode == 2:
				integer, flag = divmod(integer, 3)
				flag_swap = flag != 1
				flag_space ^= flag != 0
			integer, short = divmod(integer, 2)
			the_dictionary = (dictionary.long, dictionary.short)[short]

I'm thinking something to do with the characters in my code page though

^ That's how Jelly does it

I don't think Dennis will mind if you do it like Jelly.

¯_(ツ)_/¯ I mean, might as well

4:18 AM

@Mego from TNB mods?

I have nothing wrong with their advice

just that previously star clearing has been used pretty conservatively, so change is new

@Mego >_> how much of the starboard is interesting/significant really tho. shall we cleanse all the stars on the board?

Any ideas on how to improve this UI? The lots of empty space between the header and the buttons don't feel right

yea

4:37 AM

@Downgoat I feel like it's perfect

@Downgoat If you move those buttons up to reduce the empty space, you might be able to put the README in the space left.

Would basic exponents like 5^x count as arithmetic?

@HelkaHomba :O so you are making the sequence into challenge!

I'd say yes

Q: 5, 2, 16, 3580, What comes next?

4:56 AM

@Downgoat yep

New Main Posts

5:10 AM

4

Consider the positive integer powers of five in decimal. Here are the first 25, right aligned: X 5^X 1 5 2 25 3 125 4 625 5 3125 6 15625 7 78125 8 390625 9 ...

5:44 AM

@Dennis You mean how it needs to start at the top?

(re codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/111247/…)

Dennis

Yes. All my approaches so far treat "missing" digits as zeroes...

CMC: given an array of integers K and an integer N, generate an N-length array with truthy values at each index k in K. E.g., N = 4 and K = (0 1 3), this would give 1 1 0 1. You may assume that K is sorted and has no integer greater than N. Lists may be one-indexed.

@Dennis Oh, you'll sandwich it into 10 bites eventually I'm sure

@WheatWizard Is submitting a specification for a language sufficient for your challenge?

I made a new sequence I think

5:54 AM

@ConorO'Brien I would really prefer if you wrote an interpreter but since other people have submitted actually invalid answers, I wont do anything. There are already at least one answer there without an interepreter

@WheatWizard aight. I wasn't going to answer w/out an interpreter, but I was wondering about the current answers

which both seem to lack interpreters

Yeah I am not terribly happy about that but the more pressing concern is that one of them lacks a proof and one of them is certainly invalid.

I hope mine might be a pleasant surprise, then :)