The Nineteenth Byte

Please name the alternatives

Coffeescript, VBscript (don't do it), typescript

there's more

12:24 AM

Those are all JS.

If those were js, then I would've listed "js" three times.

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ as much as I like coffescript, I have to agree with @quartata on that they have most of js's quirks

and I think Dart works on FF

actually, es6, makes coffescript pretty redundant

true

12:26 AM

Yeah, es6 absorbed almost all of TypeScript's features except for the strict typing

vbscript doesn't look too bad. I think it has strict typing

though probably not the best thing for the web

VBScript only works on IE

oh

the browsers don't really support anything that isn't transpiled. and even if you transpile it then you still have to mess around with js

@quartata what do you mean by this? why does brython need their servers? (i'm concerned cuz i wanted to start using brython)

12:27 AM

I suggest one of you fork Brave or something and make it use a different language

@Maltysen CDN

@quartata oic

does google not have it or something?

as long as you can make a basic DOM library, you could use generally any language for client side stuff

@Quill About a couple months ago I started work on embedding Perl in Chrome with NaCl but I had issues getting the toolchain to work

@VTCAKAVSMoACE Can you test/post results in chat?

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ hahaha

12:28 AM

@quartata so i if I provide a local fallback, brython is safe?

@Maltysen Yes but you won't have caching

well, its a fallback

like they do for jQuery

doesn't emcscripten transpile C into JS?

Yeah, sure

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Not in the way you think

you don't know how I think get out of my head

12:29 AM

It takes LLVM output and compiles it into JS. It's very low level

so like asm.js?

well, I figured it didn't directly translate it :P

It is asm.js

o

Asm.js is the transpiling target

12:29 AM

o.c

That's what it was made for

NaCl is also very low-level; you can't do any DOM manipulation with it without writing your own JS thing that receives messages from it

VTCAKAVSMoACE

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ It works.

@quartata so can i run it on web assembly if my browser supports it?

@VTCAKAVSMoACE yay!

@Maltysen Dunno. Probably

12:30 AM

Both the sᵁᴘᴇʀ sᴄʀɪᴘᴛs ᴀɴᴅ the normal letters?

@quartata in your opinion, is brython prohibitively slow? that was really the only concern i had

I haven't timed it. It'll probably be pretty slow though.

That's why NaCl looked so appealing, a Perl interpreter in NaCl would run faster than V8 (or about on par) most likely

@quartata get python running plz

:P

I've never embedded Python before so I wouldn't know how

I have embedded Perl before though so at least I could try and do that.

Actually I have all the code I just can't link the libraries properly

@quartata the problem with this approach, both for perl and python would be the dom manipulation that brython manages to provide

12:33 AM

Oh hey there's a bounty for JS page timing if anyone's interested: stackoverflow.com/q/27120958/3296811

you would have to write your own python->nacl->js dom interface

@Maltysen No, I had a plan for that.

@quartata plz tell me

I was writing a JS slave that received messages from the NaCl module

The problem was then injecting methods into the Perl scope. I haven't figured that out yet

but you would still have to write the entire perl interface for the dom?

its probably still worth doing, though

12:35 AM

@quartata o_o what does slave mean in a technical context

Master/slave (technology)

Yeah, but that wouldn't be very hard.

Master/slave is a model of communication where one device or process has unidirectional control over one or more other devices. In some systems a master is selected from a group of eligible devices, with the other devices acting in the role of slaves. In other words "The master/slave configuration is basically used for load sharing purposes when two identical motors connected to two different drives are coupled to a common load". One drive is defined as the master and is configured for running in the speed-control mode whereas the other defined as slave is configured for running in torque-control...

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ here he means that he would tell the slave, "run this thing" and it would do it

@quartata wonder if I can copy/paste most of the brython DOM interface for a python NaCl

@R.Kap how in the world did java help you get rep on a site for golfing code? ._o_O

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ People are impressed.

Also, a good golf is a good golf regardless of language.

@quartata can you just run some perl code defining the interface that calls c code that does the PostMessage thing to communicate with js?

12:40 AM

Perhaps but it sure as hell wouldn't be easy.

perldoc.perl.org/perlguts.html

Or do perldoc perlguts. Perl is scary internally.

I wonder how complex Brave's source code is

@quartata but i was imaging the interface being written in perl without getting into the internals

I'm already having to get into the internals to embed it.

just like if perl was python cuz i don't know perl def DOM_stuff():suprocess.Popen("./call_js")

There's the other problem: since this is NaCl I don't have file access. Otherwise I'd just use a pipe and pure Perl.

I heard that there's a virtual file system you can get access to though. I was going to try that

12:42 AM

@quartata ohhhhh

This is all moot anyways. I couldn't link the test code I was trying, I got some obscure error from the linker

@quartata are you recompiling perl into the pexe?

That's the bigger issue

@Maltysen The good folk at Google have already ported libperl (shared library form of the interpreter). I'm just linking to it

o

but why perl?

12:44 AM

Because it's the only thing I know to embed. Plus I like it

Perl is pretty. also getting it available for web dev means more people will learn it :)

@quartata which version?

5

6 is trash. We don't talk about that

@Quill Yeah, although I wouldn't say it's an easy language to learn

@quartata but it was going to be the next big thing?

idk

It's not a bad language (it's actually pretty good in some aspects). It just isn't Perl

R. Kap

12:46 AM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Because it's Java.

@quartata why is it trash?

That was just me being dramatic. It's very very different from the Perl I grew up with.

I can't tell when you're being dramatic or not :P

@quartata wait is the c++ extension .cc? i though it was .cpp?

It's kind of like a sane version of Go that's been snorting lines of Haskell

@Maltysen I usually do .cpp

But some people do it like that

12:49 AM

@quartata just wondering cuz nacl tutorial has .cc

@quartata sorry last c++ question: why does const char* const kHelloString = "hello";have two consts

Means it's a constant pointer to a constant array of chars

k thanks. is that the normal way to define constant strings?

@El'endiaStarman i was mostly joking

@Maltysen Usually I just do const char*

shit the pepper bundle is big

12:58 AM

I am so pissed. I've re-wrote my code three times, all to try and get a prefix language that supports meta-functions. Idk what's wrong

meta functions?

functions that operate on functions

planarity.net

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ so like a functional language?

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ you mean like pyth? :P

1:01 AM

@Quill yes

@Maltysen stop taunting me

;_;

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Pyth actually has really good functional programming tools.

I'm trying to fucking make a language

not to give up and use another

The problem that you're having is not enough cheese puns @CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ

A version of Pyth without short identifiers would be really cool

cheese puns make for successful languages

1:02 AM

@Quill ಠ_ಠ

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ my ast pyth thing (no transpilation) had meta functions before but then i took it out to redo them but then i never finished, but you can look at my original code

somwhere in the commit history: github.com/Maltysen/pyth_native

thanks, I think I will

be warned that this was the version that I was not happy with

> Fixed lambda and added Meta Operators

you removed them, I thought?

New Main Posts

0

Q: Is it a sum-free set?

A set is sum-free if no two elements when added together are part of the set itself. For example, {1, 5, 7} is sum-free, because all members are odd, and two odd numbers when added together are always even. On the other hand, {2, 4, 9, 13} is not sum-free, as either 2 + 2 = 4 or 4 + 9 = 13 add t...

1:04 AM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ added them, removed them, and then added 10% of the way there

oh

look at this commit for something that works (but I was unhappy with): github.com/Maltysen/pyth_native/commit/…

why were you unhappy with it?

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ because I made them with one type of nesting mechanic in mind (a meta-op plus regular op would be treated as regular op, so you can use more meta-ops on them), but then had a better idea

oh, ok

hey @Quill you couldn't perchance spare some time to help me debug? :3 perhaps a fresh pair of eyes might help

1:12 AM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ i'll help

oh, thanks!

(while pepper downloads)=)

link?

perhaps I should make a separate room

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Yeah, do that.

Heal

(new prefix programming language)

Q: No Quine Built In? NO problem?

1:14 AM

@quartata I was planning on doing that, but then I got used to the short identifiers :P

New Main Posts

0

Are you tired of languages with built in quining techniques? Your Challenge should you choose to accept it is to add a built in quine feature to the language of your choice. Take any language which follows the traditional definition of a programming language as per community consensus and does...

code-golf quine code-generation res

@NewMainPosts oh god the headers and page breaks

ev3commander

Hello!

hiya

@NewMainPosts Urgh, another quine variation.

1:22 AM

Every time a quine challenge is posted, do you die a little?

I am always dying a little.

Over time, those little deaths add up.

everytime a quine is posted, the little man who lives in the stack exchange servers and updates the chat feeds cries a little

2:18 AM

I have an idea for a code-challenge

sort random arrays in the least amount of comparisons

will they be big arrays?

I was thinking a lot of arrays of size 1-1000

and there will be a controller program

to level the playing field and prevent misreporting

can you do that much better than randomized quicksort? don't know that much about sorting, just curious

@Maltysen in terms of comparisons, yes

o

2:21 AM

there are many algorithms that perform less comparisons, but are slower in the real world

now I propose we take the real world away for this challenge :)

code-golf arithmetic set-theory

2:39 AM

5

Q: Is it a sum-free set?

A set is sum-free if no two elements when added together are part of the set itself. For example, {1, 5, 7} is sum-free, because all members are odd, and two odd numbers when added together are always even. On the other hand, {2, 4, 9, 13} is not sum-free, as either 2 + 2 = 4 or 4 + 9 = 13 add t...

Is this really set-theory? >.>;

Set theory is the branch of mathematics that studies unordered collections of objects. Challenges with this tag will involve the manipulation or analysis of sets.

I mean, it involves sets, but everything in mathematics does.

I think it's fair.

in fact, many answers given use set operations

like set difference

That’s true

@Zgarb I'm getting errors when trying to compile Grime. ghc complains that <$> and mempty are not in scope.

A: Tips for golfing in Haskell

2:44 AM

11

Use GHC 7.10 Jan Dvorak noted that you can only use language versions released before the challenge was made. The first version of GHC that contained this stuff was released on March 27, 2015. It's the latest version, and Prelude got some new additions that are useful for golfing: The (<$>) and (

Sounds like you need GHC ≥7.10

Adding import Control.Applicative and import Data.Monoid at the top of the relevant files might work, though?

sometimes I wonder about things that end up on Code Review.... codereview.stackexchange.com/q/134129/62429

lol

@Lynn Yeah, TIO's ghc is a bit old. It's the newest version that is in the repos though... Would it still work in 7.10 with the imports?

Trying to avoid local changes, as I'd have to patch every time Grime is updated...

Oh dear, I decided to give 7.10.3 a try and it ate 500 MB of disk space...

3:01 AM

@Dennis i'm curious where are you hosting TIO?

Doorknob

llama@llama:~$ pacman -Si ghc | grep 'Version\|Size'
Version         : 8.0.1-1
Download Size   : 86.29 MiB
Installed Size  : 1146.92 MiB

O_o

@Maltysen DigitalOcean

@Dennis that actually looks really nice

@Dennis did you use a prebuilt image or from scratch?

There are options that are either cheaper or offer more for the money, but I'm pretty happy with them. After one cheap provider shut down his service without prior notice and another one somehow managed to get my box hacked (it was somehow my fault because the server had no anti-virus, although they got in through the control panel), I went with one that seemed trustworthy.

@NathanMerrill Standard Ubuntu 14.04 server install.

3:07 AM

thats scratch in my mind

I've been trying to build a droplet from scratch, but I can't ever get it to work

Where are you stuck?

good question, wish I knew what was wrong

# /opt/cabal/1.22/bin/cabal update
Config file path source is default config file.
Config file /root/.cabal/config not found.
Writing default configuration to /root/.cabal/config
Downloading the latest package list from hackage.haskell.org
Killed

@Dennis when they say that it scales as you need it, does that mean automatically like google appengine, or do they just mean pay-as-you-use?

I was trying to get python 3 installed and django

3:08 AM

@Maltysen You pay per hour for whatever you use.

getting everything installed works fine, but getting the full request loop never seemed to work

That should be installed by default.

their django build uses python 2

Oh, I thought django! was an expression. >_>

5

lol

3:18 AM

Dandy. GHC 7.6 doesn't have the features I need, and I can't install additional packages for 7.10 because Cabal simply gets killed.

If I die young, blame Haskell.

@Lynn Hm, that seems to have worked, but now it complains that empty is defined twice.

Not sure which one I want.

Or if there is a difference.

Apparently, I need both, but I can't have them.

OK, I managed to hide empty. Now Module `Text.Parsec.Char' does not export `endOfLine'. ._.

4:08 AM

Hello

o/

How goes it?

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan tired >_> back from nevada/utah/Arizona

I saw some wild goats in Utah though :D

The scenery is great. At least in utah. Nevada's pretty boring.

yeah, it was also scorching at like 103 everyday though

Ugh. That does not sound fun.

4:13 AM

Hi downgoat dr green dennis nathan!

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan luckily back in Oakland it's a nice 60f

@thepiercingarrow hello!

@LegionMammal978 yeah, will get to later after making file system and http support and function literals and class syntax

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ \o/ but the installation scripts auto-deploy from a different repo so can you make a PR from there too (left comment on github too)?

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ shit. what happened?

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ yes:

class Thing {
    constructor(){}

    static staticProperty = "foo";

    bar(v){
        Thing.staticProperty += v;
    }
}

you can even do:

ninja 2

class Thing {
    constructor(){}

    static staticProperty = "foo";

    bar(v){
        this.constructor.staticProperty += v;
    }
}

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ mathJS is only thing I know of that supports all that stuff

> nevada/utah/Arizona

@zʏᴀʙiɴ101 cool

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ if you have time could you take a stab at this? :3

Jeez, how many notifications do you have?

idk a lot

there was no internet there and hotel wifi kept crashing phone because im running beta ios

4:33 AM

@Downgoat beta ios?

bad idea

yeah >_>

though the new maps widget was helpful

@thepiercingarrow it's not that bad

it only force reboots me in the middle of doing things like 5 times a day

@Downgoat Connor is working with you on cheddar?

@Quill lol

@thepiercingarrow yeah, conor, quill, and mars too.

@Downgoat cool

4:38 AM

btw, i'm designing the http lib for Cheddar and i need ideas

should it be async or sync?

and should there be http.get/http.post/etc. functions or like a http.request("GET", ) kinda thing

@Downgoat I'm don't really contribute that much, I just tell you you're crazy and it's never gonna work a lot and then you end up making it work anyway

@Downgoat how do milestones work?

@Quill :P. but you made all the testing stuff and didn't ignore me when i kept doing "@Quil halp, how to node"

@thepiercingarrow in GH?

@Downgoat yeah

5:02 AM

^ best page in any hotel magazine

:| Why is V stupid?

I tried to tell it to be smart instead, but then it disobeyed me.

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan chatgoat in nutshell

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan you need to teach it discipline. Take away its more powerful operators for a while until it learns to behave

Haha! "One more peep out of you, and I'm getting rid of @!"

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan y no code in node. now gaot cannot help maek V

5:06 AM

Do you know vimscript?

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan "but, but, all my friends are turing complete..."

4

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan a little yes

i install vundle. am i vim pro yet

I redid a massive chunk of it in vimscript instead of python.

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Host your blog using GtiHub pages and Markdown.

why would you use github pages for hosting a blog and not heroku i dont understand.

5:09 AM

@Downgoat cuz its static

I've never heard of anyone using Heroku to host a blog.

And his website is already on GitHub Pages

but it's using HTML

and a weird batch script

i wonder if ghost is any good

conorobrien-foxx.github.io/blog/source_code.html

I tried ghost, but I think it's easier to make the HTML/CSS and Markdown myself.

(If I remember what ghost did)

Alright, philosophical golfing-language design question: Is it a good idea or a bad idea to assign different functions to newline ('\n') and carriage return ('\r')?

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan It's just like another character.

Just treat your input as a list of bytes, and deal with the numbers.

5:14 AM

Agreed, but it's a pain to write the source code files if newline and carriage return are different.

No one cares what the code looks like anymore. So if you have a bunch of random whitespace characters that actually do important functions, that just extends your language.

Write it in a text editor

I do write it in a text editor. Most text editors don't give a shit if it's newline or carriage return and display the two the same.

Oh I meant a hex editor

Oh. I suppose I could do that.

Sounds like a pain though.

Try Binary Lambda Calculus, where it's literally binary.

we were promised jetpacks-it's thunder and it's lightning

5:20 AM

►

5:51 AM

@phase idk but its probably better than batch script >_>

A batch script to put it on GitHub pages, which uses Jekyll.

^ Brexit :P

@Downgoat XD

1 hour ago, by Downgoat

btw, i'm designing the http lib for Cheddar and i need ideas

1 hour ago, by Downgoat

should it be async or sync?

pls

@Downgoat have options for both?

6:04 AM

^

Having both in the standard library is important. You don't know what the user is going to need, so supplying both is the best choice.

yeah but I'll probably have for example either: http.get and http.asyncGet or http.get and http.syncGet

what should be the default

no default

Making users decided makes them inform themselves on what async and sync mean, and it lets them decide what is best for them in the situation they're in.

hm okay. I'll think about it

but asyncGet looks ugly. I'll need to think of different terms to use >_>

getAsync

http.async.get

@Downgoat request or fetch and default to GET

6:10 AM

@phase oh i like this one