The Nineteenth Byte

Nathan Merrill

1:00 PM

I should note that value classes really aren't pass by value, but rather copy on write

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@cat doesn't work, fact is not defined.

Nathan Merrill

but I think the two are equivalent, if you didn't know what was happening behind the scenes

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill Will you have modifiers/scala-style traits?

Nathan Merrill

except for when the clone method gets called

unfamiliar with that

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill behind the scenes

@NathanMerrill It actually happens on every assignment

Nathan Merrill

1:01 PM

no, the clone method is not behind the scenes

Mars Ultor

no, it's just the normal clone is the same as the behind-the-scenes clone

copy-on-write value types are lazily cloned on every assignment

Kenny Lau

@MartinBüttner After compression, it only costs 12 bytes

Nathan Merrill

? you mean there's a default implementation of clone?

@MarsUltor right.

Martin Büttner

@KennyLau wooo, tied with Mathematica :P

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill Depends, usually there's an accepted implementation

Nathan Merrill

1:03 PM

but when one of the clones get written to, I call the clone method

on the class

Kenny Lau

@MartinBüttner By the way, decompression

Sp3000

f=lambda a,b,k=1:b and(a and f(a-1,b,k*a)or f(k,b-1))or a this hurts so much

Nathan Merrill

@MarsUltor can you explain what you meant by modifiers/scala-style traits?

Kenny Lau

Leaderboard (evaluated):
Jelly:       !¡
Actually:    `!`n
CJam:        q~{m!}*
Pyth:        Mem=.!GH
Mathematica: #!&~Nest~##&
UGL:         iilRc%l$d:_l*%:%rd:_o
Julia:       x->y->eval(parse("$x"*repeat("|>factorial",y)))
Python:      f=lambda a,b,k=1:b and(a and f(a-1,b,k*a)or f(k,b-1))or a

Leaderboard (without evaluation):
Julia:       x->y->"$x"*repeat("|>factorial",y)

Chat mini-challenge: given positive integers x and y, output the result of the application of factorial to x for y times
For example, 3,2 -> (3!)!

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill Basically classes, but they're not meant to be used, and add functionality to the class that extends them

e.g. DeepCopy<n> could provide clone(n) when inherited (if you aim to support it)

Nathan Merrill

1:06 PM

but scala is statically typed

Mars Ultor

in scala it's inherited using the with keyword btw

Nathan Merrill

how does DeepCopy know about the variables that inherit it?

or is that just magic

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill It doesn't

That's not actually in Scala

Nathan Merrill

oh, are we talking like Java interfaces?

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill No

Nathan Merrill

1:08 PM

if I implement DeepCopy, I'd have to implement the clone function?

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill More like DeepCopy provides clone (this is not actually in scala, but it would be nice in your language)

Nathan Merrill

er, that wouldn't work, because it is statically typed

Mars Ultor

@NathanMerrill What language is it written in?

Nathan Merrill

er, haven't decided, but that is irrelevant.

I mean, I could make it magic

but I like all magic to be reproducible (aka, a user could write a class that does the same thing)

Mars Ultor

So your language is strongly typed?

Nathan Merrill

1:11 PM

yes

Mars Ultor

i.e. absolutely zero dynamic support?

Nathan Merrill

its technically gradually typed

I'm on the fence with reflection

Mars Ultor

Maybe just make shallow clone a language feature/operator/whatever?

wait, that won't work

Nathan Merrill

well, there technically is a default clone(n) method

but it just calls n.clone()

which has a default implementation

(which is magic)

but since that magic happens at compile time, that's fine

Mars Ultor

then make deepClone(n) use clone?

oh wait

Nathan Merrill

1:14 PM

oh, clone will take a parameter

a default parameter depth

Mars Ultor

foo.clone(depth = 1)?

Nathan Merrill

so, clone(a, depth=4) or what you just said

@MartinBüttner our conversation yesterday (the day before?) made me start playing Go again

Martin Büttner

oh nice :)

Nathan Merrill

I'm getting better at seeing more than 1 move ahead

Martin Büttner

@aditsu might like to hear that since he's still playing more actively than I am :) ^

aditsu

1:18 PM

huh? wha.. Go! \o/

cat

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ fact = lambda n: 1 if n < 2 else n * fact ( n - 1 )

zyabin101

Obtained "access review queues"! :D

Mars Ultor

@Sp3000 How does that hurt?

aditsu

@NathanMerrill wanna play?

Nathan Merrill

sure, as long as you give me pointers

you'll likely stomp me

Sp3000

1:19 PM

@MarsUltor Everything else on the list has builtin factorial

aditsu

@NathanMerrill char*p,*q;

Nathan Merrill

lol

I don't play online, so I don't know what sites are good

aditsu

I prefer gokgs.com (java client)

how strong are you?

Nathan Merrill

terrible

Mars Ultor

@Sp3000 They're mostly golfing langs, Mathematica and Julia are math-focused, UGL has nothing other than basic arithmetic

aditsu

1:21 PM

do you play 9*9? or bigger?

Nathan Merrill

9x9

aditsu

ok

Mars Ultor

So it's not that much of a surprise

zyabin101

Where can we see the game?

@quartata forgive me I added equality to UGL ;_;

aditsu

everybody can use the client and enter as guest (just put in an unused username)

zyabin101

1:22 PM

@aditsu I don't have Java. :(

aditsu

you can install it.. or just download the game record afterwards

zyabin101

@aditsu Okay, ping me when game finished.

aditsu

@NathanMerrill let me know when you're in

Nathan Merrill

do "Play on KGS"?

aditsu

what do you mean?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

1:25 PM

@zyabin101 are you sure?

zyabin101

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Yes.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

hm

i thought most things come with java now a days.

Nathan Merrill

my username is thenameip

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

oh, you are playing go?

aditsu

ok, I'm AutoAtari, I'll set up a game

zyabin101

1:27 PM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Yes. :3

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

go is fun

i suck at go

zyabin101

Who plays who?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

user46049 plays alex

for the AVOCAD CHAMPIONSHIP

john cena announces/narrates

aditsu

@NathanMerrill game is ready in the "open games" tab

zyabin101

@aditsu you black?

Just curious.

aditsu

1:28 PM

what, my skin? :p

zyabin101

@aditsu No, your stones. :P

aditsu

I'll play white

zyabin101

Okay.

Nathan Merrill

I don't think it'll matter

zyabin101

@NathanMerrill Komi?

Nathan Merrill

1:29 PM

wait, I get 4 to start?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

yeah

handicap

aditsu

I gave you some handicap to compensate

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

Because he assumes he will squash you in the round.

zyabin101

Komidashi

Komi (コミ) in the game of Go are points added to the score of the player with the white stones as compensation for playing second. Black's first move advantage is generally considered to equal somewhere between 5 and 7 points by the end of the game. Standard komi is 6.5 points under the Japanese and Korean rules; under Chinese, Ing and AGA rules standard komi is 7.5 points. Komi typically applies only to games where both players are evenly ranked. In the case of a one-rank difference, the stronger player will typically play with the white stones and players often agree on a simple 0.5 point komi...

aditsu

no, because he said he's terrible

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

1:30 PM

@aditsu is there a way to spectate?

zyabin101

@Nathan what's the komi?

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Yup.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

komi is a handicap of sorts

aditsu

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ sure, if you're connected with the client, you just need to find the game and you can watch

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

White generally gets 1/2 komi because he/she/it goes second.

aditsu

you can search one of us by name

zyabin101

1:31 PM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I forgot which gender is White. XP

Nvm, found it.

senseis.xmp.net/?PlayerGender

> At Sensei's Library we usually refer to White as "she" and to Black as "he" if the players are unknown.

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ It's her.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

got it

zyabin101

So, I got a program for compressing Unipants' Golfing Language to bytecode.

Martin Büttner

@KennyLau can you please not update all of your answers at once?

you're flooding the front page

Kenny Lau

Oh, sorry

what could I do?

Martin Büttner

do 3 at a time, wait 12 hours

Kenny Lau

1:37 PM

oh okay

zyabin101

Compression and decompression.

May I use them to add some form of bytecode to an answer?

@StackCodeGolf/mods

@MartinBüttner ^^

Martin Büttner

@zyabin101 if your interpreter can actually read a source file containing only the byte code.

zyabin101

@MartinBüttner Oh, okay.

Kenny Lau

@MartinBüttner Can the compiler be written after the challenge?

(not the language, just the compiler)

Martin Büttner

no

languages are defined by their implementations

(as far as PPCG is concerned)

Kenny Lau

1:48 PM

alright

George Gibson

@zyabin101 Oh, you're @schas002 on GitHub...

I did wonder...

zyabin101

@GeorgeGibson Yes, I am.

Fatalize

Does someone have the meta post about what to do when languages specs are updated and there are answers with this language in the old spec?

Martin Büttner

nothing. those answers simply use an old version of the language.

Fatalize

sure but

Martin Büttner

1:53 PM

37

A: Can I win with a version of a language that didn't exist when the challenge was posted?

I would apply the same rules as to a new language, because it opens the same loopholes as using a newer language: any language author could just patch in a handy built-in to solve the challenge. So yes, you can post it, but no your answer is not eligible for being accepted. Hence, answers using ...

Fatalize

Do I have to provide a way to check that answer?

Mars Ultor

@Fatalize You have to at least specify the version

Martin Büttner

not really, but I think in most cases the version from back then will still exist in some commit of your language's repo, I guess?

@MarsUltor not all languages have version numbers

Fatalize

Some background:

Martin Büttner

unless otherwise specified, I'd assume "latest version at the time the challenge was posted"

Fatalize

1:55 PM

I rewrote Brachylog's transpiler from Java to Prolog

but the grammar changed a bit for the better because of it

I want to get rid entirely of the Java code on the repo

but then old answers are not valid anymore in the new transpiler

Mars Ultor

@MartinBüttner Version as in version number/commit id

@Fatalize Entirely?

Fatalize

@MarsUltor entirely what? :p

Kenny Lau

@MartinBüttner Shouldn't compressions be specially treated?

Martin Büttner

@MarsUltor even so, there's technically no requirement for languages to be in versioned repos

Mars Ultor

@Fatalize As in delete?

Martin Büttner

1:56 PM

@KennyLau why?

Fatalize

@MarsUltor Yes, it will be obsolete

and the code is horrible anyway :p

Mars Ultor

@MartinBüttner Yeah, then they will need to provide an interpreter + proof

Kenny Lau

@MartinBüttner Because it doesn't add any new feature

Mars Ultor

@Fatalize But isn't it still in the git history?

Fatalize

@MarsUltor I guess it is

Martin Büttner

1:57 PM

@KennyLau "oh hey, I have come up with a new compression method... it's pretty horrible on average, but this one program I posted yesterday happens to be compressed to a single byte, isn't that sick?"

Fatalize

I guess I'll just indicate on answers that they are no longer valid, and worked on the old transpiler that you can find in Git's history

Kenny Lau

I see...

aditsu

@NathanMerrill oh, you left?

Nathan Merrill

@aditsu I'm done for now

aditsu

I was going to review

Kenny Lau

1:58 PM

Leaderboard (evaluated):
Jelly:       !¡
Actually:    `!`n
CJam:        q~{m!}*
Pyth:        Mem=.!GH
Mathematica: #!&~Nest~##&
UGL:         iilRc%l$d:_l*%:%rd:_o
Julia:       x->y->eval(parse("$x"*repeat("|>factorial",y)))
Python:      f=lambda a,b,k=1:b and(a and f(a-1,b,k*a)or f(k,b-1))or a

Leaderboard (without evaluation):
Julia:       x->y->"$x"*repeat("|>factorial",y)

Chat mini-challenge: given positive integers x and y, output the result of the application of factorial to x for y times
For example, 3,2 -> (3!)!

Nathan Merrill

ah ok

how do I rejoin

Martin Büttner

@Fatalize how many answers does that affect?

Fatalize

@MartinBüttner I'd say between 10 and 20

didn't count though

Martin Büttner

k, please update them in small batches if you do

Fatalize

no, I will flood the main page with "edited by Fatalize"

therefore my answers will get more visibility, thus more green points

Martin Büttner

2:00 PM

or red ones...

Fatalize

:(

Martijn

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I read your first message as "okey" so I thought I accidentally typed something in here by accident. No biggy

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

okey

welcome to the biggest time waster this side of the tavern

@Fatalize lol

zyabin101

@aditsu wins by 85 and a half.

Replay, reset, revanche, revert, return, re...?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

>_> this name

pygments.org/demo

the most recent snippet

I did the N queens and slackbot, but "Captain Wifi Network" posted one also.

Doorknob

2:33 PM

→ 83 messages moved to Trashcan

Four full pages of pure noise.

zyabin101

10/10 most constructive way to finish it

2

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill @aditsu how was the game?

zyabin101

@MartinBüttner @aditsu won by 85 and a half.

aditsu

I'm still reviewing

Martin Büttner

ah okay, go on then :)

aditsu

2:39 PM

I think I lost @NathanMerrill though

@zyabin101 so the game record is here

@MartinBüttner somewhat fun, I ended up killing everything (sorry Nathan)

zyabin101

@aditsu Ikr.

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill sorry to hear that. did you enjoy it though/learn something? :)

zyabin101

Welcome one and all to the stage of show "Exploring the Mac." Starting soon.

>_>

aditsu

grabs his pickaxe let's explore! :)

zyabin101

@aditsu Sorry, no pickaxes here. This is a show.

Exploring the Macintosh Plus, and its System Software, and its other software. >_>

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

2:46 PM

@aditsu Will you please leave your pickaxe outside?

aditsu

@zyabin101 I'd love to watch, but I just remembered I had a root canal appointment

zyabin101

@aditsu Root canal appointment?

aditsu

like.. at the dentist

Martin Büttner

that sounds pretty horrible :/

aditsu

(not as horrible as that show though)

zyabin101

2:48 PM

@aditsu Oooh, I had one visit at the dentist.

Were removing a double tooth.

flawr

A question regarding this challenge: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/80288/find-all-the-solutions-to-this-number-puzzle-in-the-shortest-time-possible

Does anoyne here understand whether we now have to print solutions for row/col sums of 29, or solutions for row/col sums all equal?

zyabin101

I breathed nitrous oxide.

It was as sweet as in a sweet world.

It was wonderful.

aditsu

I'd like to try that sometime (N2O)

ardaozkal

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ well your about section asks me to do this.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

:P

what brings you here?

aditsu

2:53 PM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ping

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

...

ardaozkal

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ the power of ಠ_ಠ ofc

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

you two have a reason to do that.

@ardaozkal :D

aditsu

I hope Nathan's ok..

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

what happened?

aditsu

3:00 PM

I was reviewing the game with him, and he just disappeared

trichoplax

To celebrate Puzzling's new icon that looks like Workplace's icon, they now also have question titles which look like Workplace titles :(

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

>_>

aditsu

they should change the subdomain to workpuzzles or something

trichoplax

Hmmm...

quartata

@aditsu Sorry to hear that. Root canals suck.

aditsu

3:05 PM

uh.. you guys really thought I was serious?

quartata

Uh, yes?

aditsu

it was just a way of making an excuse while implying "I'd rather.."

I did have 2 root canals done last year though

trichoplax

@aditsu In here you need to end every sarcastic statement with (!) or :P and even then you will often be taken seriously. It's all part of the fun...

Nathan Merrill

Back. Sorry, hosting lots of family today

@aditsu thanks for the explanation

aditsu

oh ok, I was still in the middle of it, but we can leave it there I guess

Nathan Merrill

3:09 PM

@MartinBüttner I didn't expect to win, but I did learn a lot

aditsu

great :)

Nathan Merrill

I know, but it's crazy here

Kenny Lau

is advert for other coding websites allowed xd

ardaozkal

Is any language allowed on PCG?

esp. Indev ones?

zyabin101

@ardaozkal There is a definition on what is a programming language.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

3:11 PM

@trichoplax actually looks more like academia to me.

Martin Büttner

@ardaozkal as long as it satisfies meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/2073/8478 and existed before the challenge was posted.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ardaozkal mostly yeah, but it has to be a real programming language and older than the challenge.

Martin Büttner

(you can still post an answer if the language/version is newer than the challenge but then you should mark the answer as non-competitive)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

Only has to be older to be competetive though, you can answer in a newer langauge but not win.

dangit @MartinBüttner

stop ninja'ing

aditsu

I would expect it to have a compiler/interpreter publicly available

Martin Büttner

3:12 PM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ it's what I do

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

Yes, public.

ardaozkal

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ "real" = fits that meta?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

Paid languages are sometimes okay.

@ardaozkal yeah

ardaozkal

I think that my language which started off as a gag fits.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@MartinBüttner I thought that was "be really good at weird geometric languages and regex"?

@ardaozkal cool

github or the sorts?

ardaozkal

3:13 PM

any kind of output allowed? (the language is primarily graphics, but can output logs, is that allowed?)

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ on github but private rn.

too many stuff to add.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

okay

Oh, and welcome to the ~~cult~~ club that is PPCG!

11

hope you like it here

ardaozkal

soo gimme a sec while I switch over to my phone

Martin Büttner

@ardaozkal the full list of allowable I/O methods is meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/2447/… but most people allow "STDOUT or the language's closest alternative", so you should be fine

aditsu

some challenges have graphical output

ardaozkal

Yeah, I don't think that I can participate in them without developing good math functions first (add, divide, multiply are the only ones I've added in by now)

So story time as I walk. The language had no sorts of thinking process before it. The interpreter came before I gave it a name, lol

aditsu

3:23 PM

the review of our Go game is here for whoever wants to see

ardaozkal

Its main purpose is allowing a small cross platform game framework

Martin Büttner

@ardaozkal that's not really a bad thing... I recently started on a language from a name and really had trouble pulling things together while sticking to the theme ;)

ardaozkal

Which it is good at. Small games can run on native Windows, webgl, Android, ios, Linux and macos. (aka I coded its interpreter on wpf and unity, lol)

aditsu

sounds pretty cool

ardaozkal

I'm planning to develop it with pebble.js

I'm also planning to make a compiler for it (that'll convert the code from AGE to C# and compile)

Tbh I just like working on different stuff and this is a good example of it

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

3:34 PM

@ardaozkal What language is it?

FryAmTheEggman

3:48 PM

@KennyLau I'm pretty busy this weekend, feel free to post a solution yourself

Kenny Lau

@FryAmTheEggman Alright.

zyabin101

ohai @ArtOfCode

ArtOfCode

@Downgoat @EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Trashcan is private for a reason, I'm afraid :P

zyabin101

Downgoat

@ArtOfCode but how do I know what was deleted now ;_;

zyabin101

3:50 PM

Show starts now.

Welcome one and all to show "Exploring the Mac".

>_>

drags file into window

[@] i.stack.imgur.com/trpKG.png

This is the System Startup disk of System Six dot Zero Eight.

>_>

ArtOfCode

@Downgoat 83 messages were

zyabin101

@ArtOfCode Four pages of pure noise.

Downgoat

@ArtOfCode what what was the content of the messages

ardaozkal

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ decided to public it rn: github.com/ardaozkal/age

Martin Büttner

@Downgoat nothing worth preserving

ArtOfCode

3:52 PM

@zyabin101 yeah, would agree with that

zyabin101

Doorknob removed it from the face of Earth into the Trashcan of PPCG.

ArtOfCode

in Trashcan, 2 hours ago, by Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

everyone knows you get juic from mod if you trhow avocad

and other such nonsense

zyabin101

Compare the menu of System 6.0.8 and System 7.0 >_>

Downgoat

@ArtOfCode haha, ok, though that sounds like usual discussion here :P

ArtOfCode

yeah, just about

zyabin101

3:54 PM

System 6.0.8 was not as advanced as System 7.0. But not the menu divides the systems.

The disk defines the division.

>_>

ardaozkal

now under github.com/agEngine/AGE

zyabin101

Welcome to the System Startup folder, located on the first partition of the drive of the emulated computer that accepts floppies. Blah bwah boo. >_>

This is the Read Me file, that everyone has to read. It contains important info that isn't seen in the User Guide to Macintosh Plus.

>_>

This is TeachText, the local text editor! ^_^

<_<

v_v

Downgoat

@zyabin101 still better than atom :P

zyabin101

>_> It can read and write plain text files, and view a special kind of files called Read Me files. Like the one we saw in the bottom right corner hiding as a newsletter with first line "EXTRA!". >_>

@Downgoat Nope, even worse :P

Transcript for