The Nineteenth Byte

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

6:00 PM

WAIT I DO

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/…

oh nvm

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

but it is hard to get the trig funcs

so I don't think it is possible

how is it hard?

go to fog room

link me?

6:01 PM

FOG Discussion

Fuzzy Octo Guacamole Discussion. Github: github.com/RikerW/Fu...

Why is nan truthy?

is it JS?

No.

Even JS isn't that screwed up :P

@Dennis which lang?

Dennis

Python

And by extension, Jelly. Sadly.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

6:04 PM

@Dennis nan isn't a predefined var in python

But "nan" would be, so that may be the problem

Dennis

No.

>>> bool(float('nan'))
True

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

hm

but why are you using nan anyway?

Sp3000

@Dennis Apparently Python just likes the anything but zero approach

El'endia Starman

nan is a number that isn't 0, so that's probably why.

Amusingly, nan actually IS a number, as defined by some IEEE standard.

Zgarb

@Dennis Fun fact: the Pyth program nan apparently takes an integer and prints True. test

Sp3000

6:10 PM

@Zgarb As much as I dislike this emoticon, I feel that it's appropriate here: ಠ_ಠ (whispers That's something completely different!)

3

trichoplax

I don't see any reason to assume that nan is non-zero. It can arise in situations where it isn't clear whether it should be treated as zero or not. I'd be inclined to say neither True nor False, and make it undefined if the code doesn't explicitly check for it.

Dennis

@Zgarb Not really sure why that is. How is n parsed?

@trichoplax Well, at least for my golfing language, nan would be more useful if it was falsy.

Zgarb

@Dennis I don't know either...

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

In Jolf, nan prints 0. :D (n is a variable initialized to 0, alerts 0)

El'endia Starman

In Minkolang, nan is an infinite loop. :P

Sp3000

6:16 PM

@Dennis Looking at the source, single argument compares != None, hence why it's True (and completely irrelevant!)

quartata

@Dennis It's because of the new implicit input

so it appends z to the last n

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I added implicit input to Jolf independent of Pyth doing it, and we both did it around the same time o_o

quartata

Actually wait

I'm not sure how this works

OK so it's like nanQQ

Dennis

nQQ would return False, not True.

Sp3000

It's n(a(n(Q),Q))

quartata

6:18 PM

Right but it's n(a(n(Q),Q))

ninja'd so hard it's not even funny

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

nin'jad

trichoplax

@Dennis I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you should use a sensible approach for a golfing language - go with whatever allows most abuse...

Ton Hospel

@lembik: because it collects enough big eigenvalues so the exponential decays very rapidly and only a small radius is needed

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Say b is base delineator, and that a number before b denotes the base. Should 3b201 be 201_3, or 201 in base 10 converted to base 3?

El'endia Starman

@trichoplax If you allow more abuse on purpose, is it really abuse? :P

Dennis

6:19 PM

@trichoplax Not sure if abuse. or whatever would allow me to gracefully replace NaN with something else.

@Sp3000 pyth.herokuapp.com/?code=n&input=0&debug=0

Sp3000

3 mins ago, by Sp3000

@Dennis Looking at the source, single argument compares != None, hence why it's True (and completely irrelevant!)

El'endia Starman

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ The former. The latter would be pretty surprising.

Sp3000

Turn on debug, it's parsed as n(Q)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@El'endiaStarman Okay, cool. The current behavior is the latter because I programmed it bad :P

El'endia Starman

lol

trichoplax

6:20 PM

@Dennis That sounds neat.

Nathan Merrill

find a github repo with at least 100 stars, find a non-random function with 1 input and 1 output, and we'll try to guess it

Dennis

@Sp3000 I somehow missed that...

trichoplax

@El'endiaStarman Hmm... Perhaps I should have gone with "flexibility"

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes _ represents a negative already. I think I'll go with the former :D

El'endia Starman

@QPaysTaxes Why do you think there are so many bad programmers? :P

Ton Hospel

6:21 PM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ: use capital B ?

Anonymous

Anything is a golfing language if you try hard enough

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes Not really. It's general purpose, like J, but is going to be inherently golfy

@TonHospel ooo that's fantastic!

Looks less like a 6.

El'endia Starman

@QPaysTaxes Pfft, that's not it. Elem/middle/high schools have only just begun programming classes.

Ton Hospel

Every new generation of programmers is obviously worse than the previous one (and get of my lawn)

12

El'endia Starman

Oh, it's more than that though.

Anonymous

6:23 PM

That's because, until recently, programming was a very niche profession

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^

I have one programming ish friend, and he thinks that J is easy yet knows nothing of it. FML

Anonymous

You have to have some quantity before you can start working on quality

El'endia Starman

@QPaysTaxes It'd probably be a good idea to start disabusing yourself of the notion that what you see is all that matters. :P

5

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^^

Anonymous

See, people seem to think that the "real world" will happen suddenly

Anonymous

6:26 PM

What actually happens is, it sneaks up on you, slowly taking over you

Anonymous

Until one day you realize that you became an adult by accident

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Mego Hell naw. This is the real world, it came upon me the moment I was born

^^ TRUE XD

Geobits

@QPaysTaxes Good. Truth often sounds like that.

Anonymous

Not at all

Geobits

Maybe not Lovecraft...

Anonymous

6:27 PM

What happens is, when you're young, you go "I don't wanna grow up and do X, Y, and Z!"

Nathan Merrill

I love writing well written code. I have a couple of coworkers who also great programmers, and put out some awesome code. However, there are times when you just need to get it to work (and quickly), which often makes your code messy. Poorly written code is simply a fact of life.

Anonymous

Then you start getting a little older, and you start doing X, and it's not so bad

Anonymous

It even gives you a sense of independence and self-reliance, which you like

Ton Hospel

@Mego: I'm getting prety old and that plan is still up and running ...

Anonymous

And then you go "Ok X isn't so bad but I'll never do Y and Z!"

Nathan Merrill

6:28 PM

@QPaysTaxes false. You shouldn't prototype in terrible code, and no company is going to pay you so you can make the code look nice

Geobits

State Farm® commercial - "Never"

►

Anonymous

And then you start doing Y, and then Z, and then you realize that you have indeed grown up, despite your original intentions, and it's simultaneously not as bad and so much worse than you imagined

Geobits

(ignore that it's a stupid commercial)

Anonymous

The three steps of writing production software:

Geobits

@QPaysTaxes hahahahahahahaha

Anonymous

6:30 PM

Make it work
Make it right
Make it good

Anonymous

You usually don't get to do step 3

Anonymous

Because of time/budget constraints

El'endia Starman

@QPaysTaxes Frameworking?

Anonymous

@QPaysTaxes Incremental development

Anonymous

And the other thing you described is evolutionary development

El'endia Starman

6:31 PM

@QPaysTaxes That's what I'd call it.

Anonymous

Incremental development is what Agile/Scrum teams use. Start small with a skeleton, add features and test them until it's complete (enough).

trichoplax

@QPaysTaxes If you write it awful the first time, it's only likely to get worse...

muddyfish

Eugh...

my school' security

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be

muddyfish

I searched 'statement' trying to get my personal statement

trichoplax

6:32 PM

@Mego Is that a curse...??

muddyfish

and got every file from every student with 'statement' in the title

'4 x A* (English lit, English Lang, Maths, Biology) … 5 x A (History, Religious Studies, French, Chemistry, Physics) … 3 x A (English lit, History, Sociology) … -Dr. Rob Hayward UEA (law and …
Authors: System Account, Windows User Date: 24/09/2015 Size: 23KB'

Anonymous

@trichoplax No, it's Pink Floyd lyrics. So actually yeah it's a curse.

muddyfish

-- random person

trichoplax

@Mego lol

El'endia Starman

@trichoplax !!! [preemptively waves a cross]

Anonymous

6:33 PM

@QPaysTaxes We call that Annie development.

Anonymous

The bug will come out, tomorrow!

3

trichoplax

@QPaysTaxes I'm not quite sure what side that argues for :)

Anonymous

Probably 2old4you

Nathan Merrill

joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/09/23.html

Geobits

Best part:

> Zawinski didn’t do many unit tests. They “sound great in principle. Given a leisurely development pace, that’s certainly the way to go. But when you’re looking at, ‘We’ve got to go from zero to done in six weeks,’ well, I can’t do that unless I cut something out. And what I’m going to cut out is the stuff that’s not absolutely critical. And unit tests are not critical. If there’s no unit test the customer isn’t going to complain about that.”

Anonymous

6:37 PM

@Geobits FictioNASA tried that same philosophy in The Martian. Spoiler alert: it lead to something going boom.

El'endia Starman

I'm doing unit tests while developing Pytek because I want to know right away if I introduce a bug. :P

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman I would argue that language development needs the most test cases

El'endia Starman

Well, at least I will be once I start implementing functions.

Geobits

@Mego Eh, I worked in aircraft maintenance for many years. Yes, if it's something safety related, test the shit out of it.

Anonymous

I'm doing unit tests after developing the second version of Seriously because I'm dumb and don't plan ahead enough

Anonymous

6:39 PM

The stark contrast between Jeff and Joel's blogs is amusing

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

^

Anonymous

Jeff is all "do it right" and Joel is all "just get it done"

trichoplax

@Mego Which one is PPCG and which one is Code Review?

Nathan Merrill

and I manage to like them both

Anonymous

@trichoplax Jeff is CR, Joel is Stack Overflow. Neither of them are PPCG.

trichoplax

6:40 PM

Oh well...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

#jokecrushed

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill I also like them both. Part of being a good software engineer is finding that happy medium between the two extremes.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@trichoplax I think CR is jeff and PPCG is joel.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

We're PPCG. 'Nuff said.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

^

Anonymous

6:42 PM

Everything doesn't have to be perfect, but making an effort to write good code goes a long way in making the code work.

El'endia Starman

@Mego Have you read many of Paul Graham's essays? I wonder how you would describe him. I'd probably say something like "Paul is 'do it and then make it better'".

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman Sounds like Knuth philosophy. I shamelessly borrow "Make it work, make it right, make it good" from Knuth.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

His books were kinda intimidating; rappelling down through his skylight seemed like the best option.

Ton Hospel

Yes, dijkstra said the same thing.

Anonymous

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

PhiNotPi

6:49 PM

I'm looking for some suggestions as to what kind of syntax I should use for Whiles/Ifs in Phigs.

Nathan Merrill

hbr.org/2014/04/…

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

Umwelt is the idea that because their senses pick up on different things, different animals in the same ecosystem actually live in very different worlds. Everything about you shapes the world you inhabit--from your ideology to your glasses prescription to your web browser.

wait wtf that is not umwelt

Anonymous

Oh boy people are fighting outside

PhiNotPi

@QPaysTaxes There's not much in way of syntax yet, but it's a language that is supposed to function like a left-to-right stack-based language, but is actually interpreted right-to-left to allow for additional context.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mego outside your house?

or in SPAAAAAACE, outside the atmosphere

PhiNotPi

6:53 PM

Right now, numbers and nestable lists.

Anonymous

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Apartment, yeah

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

\o/ got escapes working nicely in Dyia!

Anonymous

It appears a male is unhappy with a female because the female observed him and another female together in her bedroom

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

#fail

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ nice!

Anonymous

Still a better love story than Twilight

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

6:54 PM

^

PhiNotPi

@QPaysTaxes No, it's really bare-bones. Numbers, lists, stack popping/swapping, and basic math operators.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Mego rofl

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes is that your language?

@QPaysTaxes Use semicolons

PhiNotPi

@QPaysTaxes To get an idea of how it works, look at the "current" section here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/28902879#28902879

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

;- inline comment -;

It looks really sad :|

?

OH

Do you mean that it'll cause a conflict with single-line comments?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

6:58 PM

@QPaysTaxes colons

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

;- inline -; :-
MULITLINAIOHDUAHDUSAIHLINE COMMENT
-:

fede s.

@QPaysTaxes Oh, hey! I think I left the chat open

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Welcome!

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

^

fede s.

7:00 PM

thanks : )

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ooh @cat a factor person

fede s.

i came here the other day and never closed the tab!

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

rofl

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes Oh, I see. Hopefully not in the string >_>

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@tac or @cat (idk his current name) also knows factor.

El'endia Starman

7:01 PM

@NathanMerrill Great article. (Terrible website. :P)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes good!

fede s.

yeah, had some SO exchanges with cat

trichoplax

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Seems to fit to me...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

coolio

PhiNotPi

> easy, breezy, beautiful state machines

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

7:07 PM

\o/ have comments working in Dyia!

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@QPaysTaxes "Covergirl"?

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ \o/

Using ;--; and :--:?

My sister uses that makeup IIRC

covergirl.com

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ why not just IIRC?

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ No, using ; and ;- -;

I was just about to make that pun >:D

AFAIRRC

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ okai

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ because I forgot that one

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Ironic, slightly

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

fixed now, thanks for -1 byte!

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

7:10 PM

?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

:P

2 mins ago, by Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

My sister uses that makeup IIRC

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

oh XD

@QPaysTaxes No, as far as if remember remember ~~the fifth of November~~ correctly

XD

zyabin101

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ It's @cat, IIRC.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I g2g soon

I'll be back tho

need to return home

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ first jolf halp?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

7:15 PM

I'll try, but ask quik.

BAI

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

7:37 PM

BAI

Lembik

@TonHospel very interesting

@QPaysTaxes It's a good idea.. if I knew how :)

hmm.. I am at chat.stackexchange.com

ok chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/38246/…

so how do I invite someone?

@TonHospel following a suggestion I made a chat room at chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/38246/… as your comments are getting a little lost

@QPaysTaxes does that look right?

ah ok.. hopefully what I have done will do

thanks

Agawa001

hey peeps, stupid question plz, r we allowed to post partial answers ?

El'endia Starman

7:53 PM

no

Doorknob

Answers must contain working solutions to the challenge provided.

Agawa001

i have an answer for lcs but it generates non-syntaxical bugs ofcourse

programmatical bugs and unwanted results of low percentage error

@El'endiaStarman still no ?

El'endia Starman

9

Q: What should the policy be on partial answers?

What should our rules be regarding partial answers? For example, answers to code-golf questions that are not yet golfed answers that almost work, but not quite (answers that require a simple bugfix) answers that are missing a trivial rule specified in the question (that can be easily added) ans...

flawr

@El'endiaStarman Too late for me=)

Doorknob

Sometimes-working is as bad as never-working

Martin Büttner

7:56 PM

19

Q: Is there a place I can place my so-close-but-not-quite answer?

I'm asking in general, but in my specific case I was working on an answer for Programming a Pristine World and got $><<"%c"*5%%w(w o r l d). The fatal flaw here is that #<< accepts an array, so if "%c"*5% is removed, $><<%w(w o r l d) is a valid program. I'd still like to post this for two reason...

discussion answers

@Doorknob never-working? always-not-working?

Agawa001

ok gonna read that thanks for the lead

El'endia Starman

@flawr Oh, you were asking a question. :P

Doorknob

@MartinBüttner whoops

flawr

@El'endiaStarman I was wondering whether you know an efficient method to get a point on a Hilbert curve given the relative distance between the beginning and the end.

El'endia Starman

Nope.

flawr

7:57 PM

Which perhaps would make an interesting challenge.

As I'm thinking of it.