The Nineteenth Byte

Eh. I might check it out someday, but realistically, I already know one Python-based web framework, I don't need to learn another to do the same stuff. :P

At least, not at present.

Anonymous

Yeah Flask isn't meant to be a scalable web solution. It's meant to work in tandem with scalable solutions to actually create and serve the content.

Maltysen

1:34 AM

rofl: smbc-comics.com/comic/riemann39s-quaternary-conjecture

4+4+4+4+4...=e

feedback?

it looks like V8L

@Downgoat looks like V0L

what is it?

Downgoat

VSL...

pls halp text logo is hard ;_;

Maltysen

1:39 AM

or V upside-down sigma

Downgoat

what about:

PhiNotPi

It definitely needs some space around the bottom-right and upper-left bends of the S.

Conor O'Brien

letter spacing is your friend

Downgoat

i suck at this .___.

Maltysen

@Downgoat it just looks like you messed up now

xnor

1:40 AM

i think the merging idea just doesn't work when s is the middle letter

Maltysen

also the un-inverted colors was better

Downgoat

@Maltysen first one?

@xnor ok, true

Maltysen

@Downgoat yeah

quartata

why are you making a logo when you haven't started the thing

Maltysen

what is VSL?

quartata

1:42 AM

also make the s smaller

Conor O'Brien

@quartata I tried pointing this out multiple times.

PhiNotPi

@quartata the logo's the funnest part

Maltysen

@PhiNotPi no naming it is :P

Downgoat

;_; why can we not just name it after noun

its much easier this way

idea: name language triangle

imagine all the beautiful triangle logos we could make

Maltysen

@Downgoat what is VSL

@Downgoat like the illluminati?

Geobits

1:44 AM

So far it seems to be an odd logo.

Anonymous

I still don't know what VSL is

Maltysen

let's start guessing

Anonymous

Very Small Languages

Geobits

Very Slow Language

Conor O'Brien

it's his new scripting language

Maltysen

1:45 AM

Vanilla Strawberry Lollipops

PhiNotPi

Virtual Software Library

Geobits

Vividly Surreal Landscapes

Conor O'Brien

Vertical Stupid Lynches

Geobits

Vitsy's Smaller Lapdog

PhiNotPi

Viscous Shock Layer

Maltysen

1:45 AM

Vector Sum Lengths

Geobits

Vampire Stake Lathe

PhiNotPi

Very Short List

Anonymous

Violent Sociopath Lemur

Geobits

Vulcan Study of Logic

Nathan Merrill

@Mego Looked up Flask...its a bit too simplistic for me. I like my routes.py and models.py

sorry for breaking the chain :)

Anonymous

1:46 AM

@NathanMerrill But @app.route! Routing is done via decorators!

Anonymous

Isn't that cool?

Maltysen

and third parties can make their own routings

Nathan Merrill

^ this is why I don't want it

Maltysen

like @socketio.on

django doesn't even have decent socketio integration

Anonymous

Also you get SQLAlchemy for DB access

El'endia Starman

1:48 AM

Wow that's a lot of VSL backronyms.

Nathan Merrill

or I get models.py, which builds a database for me

Anonymous

Or you use literally any Python DB library you want with Flask

Downgoat

pls halp now it look like shit

or does it idk

Maltysen

well at least I can read it now

Anonymous

@Downgoat But what does VSL stand for?

ASCII-only

1:49 AM

About the backronyms: Small yes, slow hopefully not

Downgoat

versatile scripting language

Anonymous

But why male models?

El'endia Starman

@Mego You can use any one of several DB backends and Django does the work for you.

Downgoat

ASCII-only

0/10 red also we should rename it first

Downgoat

1:50 AM

;_; y u haet red

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman you don't really get the choice of your own DB library (unless you want to totally break out of the Django framework)

Downgoat

I am red

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman That's not a good thing. I want my libraries to do exactly one thing, so I can mix-and-match them as I please. Cohesion is important.

Downgoat

by transitive law of equality you haet me ;_;

oh shit i did a zyabin :P

ASCII-only

Because red usually means bad

Downgoat

1:51 AM

Q____Q

Maltysen

@Downgoat how about you mix up the gradients?

or add some other cool effects

Downgoat

??

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Are you asking for a suspension?! (I kid.)

Nathan Merrill

@Mego I'm not sure I follow. Are you against frameworks in general?

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Oh, I see the point.

Nathan Merrill

1:52 AM

I mean, most frameworks provide more than one thing

Downgoat

to be fair, however bad my logo is, this was the previous contender:

El'endia Starman

Technically, you still can use other DB libraries with Django, I think.

ASCII-only

We need some fancy name and catchphrase like "Edam: The language that was made backwards"

Maltysen

@Downgoat 10/10 very readable

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill I am against non-modular frameworks. If you can't replace parts of the framework at will, then it's not very useful.

Nathan Merrill

1:53 AM

you realize that modular means non-cohesive?

that's the tradeoff

with django everything just works great together

mınxomaτ

I prefer the nginx approach to modularism (in contrast to apache). This applies to every software for me.

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill flask works pretty great too

Nathan Merrill

but if I have different parts doing different things, you either have to find or write the glue between the parts

Downgoat

@ASCII-only Scriptgoat: bleeeeet bleeeeeeeeeeeet;

mınxomaτ

"Everything just works" is rarely true, and always just to a point.

Anonymous

1:54 AM

@NathanMerrill No, it doesn't. Each of the modules does exactly one thing, and the framework acts as the connector between the modules. A framework should do nothing more than facilitate communication between independent modules.

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill but the third party people (like flask-socketio) have written it

Conor O'Brien

@Downgoat this is actually kind of nice

El'endia Starman

@mınxomaτ I don't know nginx or apache well enough to know what you mean.

Nathan Merrill

@mınxomaτ everything just works as long as you stay within the framework. I don't make any guarantees as soon as you start doing other stuff

Anonymous

That's why I dislike .NET: it's a monolithic framework. It's very difficult to replace parts of it.

ASCII-only

1:55 AM

@Downgoat That works as well

Geobits

@ConorO'Brien Better if the S wasn't flattened (cropped-looking) at the top/bottom, but yeah.

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien nicer than?

5 mins ago, by Downgoat

;_;

Conor O'Brien

well idk

Nathan Merrill

@Mego if the framework is simply the standard of communication, then people have to write modules for it. It doesn't just work with any arbitrary module.

unless, of course, you have adapters, but that requires extra code, aka, not cohesive

ASCII-only

Of course, but modular means you can replace individual components

Anonymous

1:56 AM

@NathanMerrill Sure, but that's a lot better than a monolithic framework that is everything-or-nothing.

Nathan Merrill

@Mego right, but even django allows you to do the same. A great example is all of the templating languages they allow you to use

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill Adapters aren't necessarily incoherent. If you view an adapter as a module, it does exactly one thing: provide an interface for a module to connect to the framework.

ASCII-only

@ConorO'Brien ;_; wait VSL is Downgoat's now?

Nathan Merrill

I consider adapters to be extra cohesive :)

Conor O'Brien

@ASCII-only you weren't here; had you have been, I would have said "their"

Nathan Merrill

1:58 AM

they glue two non-cohesive parts together

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien cheddar is my new scripting lang, not VSL :P

Conor O'Brien

@Downgoat kokok

Geobits

VSL = Very Sharp Language = Cheddar

Confirmed

Conor O'Brien

I'm going to be writin a scripting language soon :P

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien pls halp no comprehendo

Conor O'Brien

1:59 AM

once I learn enough C++

ASCII-only

@ConorO'Brien There are like 6 collaborators

Conor O'Brien

yeah

ASCII-only

@ConorO'Brien Why is C++ a requirement

Conor O'Brien

@ASCII-only I want to write it in C++

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill I'm starting to think you aren't using the same meaning of "cohesion" as I am.

ASCII-only

2:00 AM

Non-esolang, right?

Downgoat

Why dont you just contribute to VSL if thats the case? :P

Conor O'Brien

@ASCII-only yeah. It's going to be basically J, but usable.

Nathan Merrill

@Mego is there a programming-specific definition for cohesion?

I just think "how well the parts fit together"

Anonymous

Cohesion (computer science)

In computer programming, cohesion refers to the degree to which the elements of a module belong together. Thus, cohesion measures the strength of relationship between pieces of functionality within a given module. For example, in highly cohesive systems functionality is strongly related. Cohesion is an ordinal type of measurement and is usually described as “high cohesion” or “low cohesion”. Modules with high cohesion tend to be preferable, because high cohesion is associated with several desirable traits of software including robustness, reliability, reusability, and understandability. In contrast...

ASCII-only

Then use bison, if it isn't an esolang either use C++ and Bison, or PyPy

Anonymous

2:02 AM

Basically "how much do the parts of this module relate to each other?"

Anonymous

It's not "how well the parts fit together" - that's more like coupling.

Nathan Merrill

ok, let me take this another direction: A linux distro does many things. You could consider it un-cohesive. However, I'd consider it cohesive because different things are in different places

I believe the same to be true for Django. You're right that it does a lot of things

but it still has a good separation of tasks

Anonymous

I don't consider the cohesion of a linux distro because it is made up of many cohesive modules which interact with each other via the kernel and other modules specifically made for intermodule communication

Anonymous

You can switch out the individual modules in a Linux system (like zsh instead of bash) with few problems because it is modular

Nathan Merrill

for example, routes.py and views.py. Flask thinks its a good idea to mix url routing and view calling, where Django keeps them seperate

Anonymous

2:06 AM

Cohesion is a module-level quality. Coupling is a system-level quality.

Nathan Merrill

I'd definitely consider that uncohesive

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill I don't understand where you got that incorrect impression

Nathan Merrill

the fact that you put annotations on the views themselves

20 mins ago, by Mego

@NathanMerrill But @app.route! Routing is done via decorators!

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill You can, but you shouldn't. You define the routes via decorators on functions, which then call code that creates the view, and returns it.

Nathan Merrill

oh, I'm mixing up terms

routing is in the same spot as the controller

I do think Django made a bad decision calling their controller file "views.py"

but regardless, django does separate the controller from the routes

Anonymous

2:09 AM

The routing functions should manage the request parameters, and then hand off processing to the controller code. They then take that result, call the view code, and return the resultant view.

Anonymous

You absolutely can (and should) separate the controller from the routes.

Anonymous

But you also can make it entirely monolithic.

Nathan Merrill

so, you would recommend a flask project to put all of the @app.route annotations in a file that then calls the actual controller functions?

Anonymous

That's probably the best way to do it

Anonymous

Though maybe s/file/module

Anonymous

2:12 AM

(since modules can and often do span multiple files, thanks to Python's subpackage and submodule systems)

Nathan Merrill

sure :)

Anonymous

Flask has a lot of flexibility that Django lacks

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill the app.route should also handle all the url request and templating/url response stuff before/after passing it on

Nathan Merrill

@Maltysen what do you mean templating?

like defining which variables gets passed to the template?

that's the controller's job, not the route's

@Mego I'm still not convinced this is true. I haven't tried breaking out of the Django framework beyond using a different templating system, but the controller modules are separated from the model modules, which are separated from the routes modules

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill srry didn't mean templating, meant url response object

Nathan Merrill

2:15 AM

what's a url response object?

Anonymous

@NathanMerrill HTTP 418

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill you can just return a string, but you can return more complex responses

like redirects, headers, attachments, json, etc.

Nathan Merrill

while I would agree that redirects are the job of the router, I think that any other http status would be the job of the controller

though I'm not sold on that

Maltysen

well I think that really depends on the specifics of the situation

Nathan Merrill

and attachments/json is definitely supposed to be added by the controller, not the router

Maltysen

2:17 AM

@NathanMerrill not the json part

Nathan Merrill

its content!

Maltysen

the controller can return a python object, and with Flask's magic decorators, the router can jsonify it & apply correct headers

Nathan Merrill

oh, the act of jsonifying an object.

still, on a high level, there's no difference between jsonifying an object and HTML-ing an object

they are both a "view"

and I don't believe that routes define which view you use :)

Maltysen

btw, does anyone know if socketio maintains packet order?

PhiNotPi

2:34 AM

@NathanMerrill I think I've made some really good progress on a mathematical model.

Nathan Merrill

awesome!

I forgot to reply to your last message :)

PhiNotPi

It was really difficult. (I did everything empirically.)

Nathan Merrill

so, what's the input, and what's the output?

I pass in a list of rankings

and a "final ranking"?

PhiNotPi

Hypothetical situation to demonstrate the progress I've made: there's 5 bots in a competition. The average score of each bot is {0,1,2,3,4} respectively, with a standard deviation of 1 for each. Let's say that each tournament consists of X samples, which are averaged to determine the ranking. If I were to perform two tournaments, what's the expected distance between results, as a function of X?

Understand this situation before I post the answer?

Nathan Merrill

I don't understand "expected distance"

PhiNotPi

2:39 AM

The "distance" between two sets of rankings, is the sum of the squares of each individual's difference in ranking.

Nathan Merrill

ok

PhiNotPi

in this case, expected difference is very closely given by "y = 5 * (b^x + b^(4x) + b^(9x) + b^(16x))" where b ~= 0.74

That was very painful to determine.

Nathan Merrill

I'm not sure where that equation came from, but I'm not really concerned about that :)

PhiNotPi

The problem is determining what numbers to use inside of the parenthesis.

Because, for any given real-world situation, those values aren't going to be the same.

1.0 : 5.670874 : 5.572458412915903
2.0 : 2.97969 : 3.2100623789384635
3.0 : 1.88415 : 2.162414580404068
4.0 : 1.288296 : 1.5398543997820493
5.0 : 0.91701 : 1.121632675138673
6.0 : 0.666924 : 0.8246681097193921
7.0 : 0.489006 : 0.6086541219901653
8.0 : 0.362876 : 0.4499242495294422
9.0 : 0.268834 : 0.3328000733750204
10.0 : 0.201036 : 0.2462289125297099
15.0 : 0.049408 : 0.05463190780571652
20.0 : 0.012644 : 0.012122840889412057
30.0 : 8.56E-4 : 5.969275127744501E-4
50.0 : 6.0E-6 : 1.4472914313448682E-6

sample size : actual value : prediction based on my empirical fitting above

so not perfect, but it's something along those lines

Downgoat

another mathjax test

Nathan Merrill

2:50 AM

I'm not sure what that table means

labels?

PhiNotPi

1 min ago, by PhiNotPi

sample size : actual value : prediction based on my empirical fitting above

Nathan Merrill

oh duh

lol, was looking above

wait, so you did a curve-fit for the above equation?

or did you derive it?

it looks derived

Maltysen

@Downgoat . is totally operator, snek lets you overload

PhiNotPi

no... I curve-fit for a smaller competition (3 competitors) and mathematically extended it for larger numbers, and it works.

which is important because it means that the mathematical pattern I saw is something real

Downgoat

@Maltysen snek is stupid :P

but seriously wat

did python people not know parsing 101

WHY WOULD OYU MAEK . AN OPERATOR I DO NOT UNDERSTAND

Nathan Merrill

2:56 AM

hmmm...I'm still not sure how I apply this. I mean, I can easily take each of the rankings and find the average sum-of-squared-difference

but once I find that, how do I get to the "actual" value you have listed?

PhiNotPi

The "missing step" is to figure out how the exponents/bases are distributed in "real competitions."

I know that the curve follows a pattern of y = a * (b^x + c^x + d^x + e^x) etc. but the question is: given a real competition, how to easily determine values of b,c,d,etc. that work well enough.

Anonymous

@Downgoat Because flexibility

Anonymous

Let's say I wanted to implement lambda calculus in Python

Anonymous

I would want to overload . for lambda calculus functions to mean abstraction instead of member access

Anonymous

Or making a tacit language - I would want . to mean composition

Nathan Merrill

3:07 AM

@PhiNotPi one other question: This is a confidence metric, right? But what are we making confidence of?

do I pass in a ranking, and it passes a confidence that that ranking is correct?

or is it simply a statistic of how variable the rankings are?

PhiNotPi

Here's the goal: pass in a bunch of rankings using small sample sizes. It determines the relationship between sample size and variance, somehow (curve-fitting with some template equation). Then, you pass in a single ranking of a much higher sample size, and it tells you how likely it is that the ranking is correct.

Nathan Merrill

so, theoretically, I could pass in each of my games as "data", then pass in my MAM-calculated result, and it could tell me how accurate it is

PhiNotPi

To make it even smarter, it should be able to do the curve-fitting when you continuously pass it updated rankings as the tournament is being held.

To be more specific, you would have to pass it MAM-calculated results of a small sample size, so then it could tell you how accurate a large-sample-size MAM result is.

If this idea actually works (which it might not), then it would have been extremely helpful with my NanoCoreWar KOTH.

Nathan Merrill

why do they have to be Mam-calculated results?

(for the small sample size)?

PhiNotPi

Since in that one, each pair-up was played several thousand times. I could run each pairup once, compute overall rankings, run each pairup a second time, compute updated rankings, etc. several times. This program should (eventually) be able to determine the rate of convergence, and tell me when I can stop performing matches.

@NathanMerrill It will get fed rankings as data, not game results as data.

Nathan Merrill

3:22 AM

there's no difference though?

PhiNotPi

What do you mean?

Nathan Merrill

I literally use the same object for game rankings as tournament rankings

both of them spit out an ordering of players

PhiNotPi

The ranking algorithm (MAM in this example) is what combines games (sample size 1) to an aggregated ranking of a larger sample size.

And I need a variety of sample sizes to determine how sample size is related to accuracy.

Nathan Merrill

oh, I understand. You're measuring convergence, not accuracy

PhiNotPi

In some cases, increased sample size does not increase accuracy at all.

And... I believe accuracy can be somewhat estimated from the rate of convergence.

PhiNotPi

3:37 AM

Let's say that I have some data, and I want to fit it to y = a * b^x + c * d^x. What's the best/easiest way to do that?

As an added bonus, I know the sum of a + c.

I need at least 3 data points, preferably more.

ASCII-only

This may be really random, also it may already have been said, but another problem we have with getting top golfers to join us is that we generally only have one competitive submission per language

Maltysen

@Downgoat it's really cool. it calls __getattr__ which you can override, but it also calls __get__ on the thing being got, which is how the magic self works

ASCII-only

@Downgoat in most languages [] is subscript operator

Maltysen

@Downgoat also properties which are super-duper useful

Oliver

4:24 AM

Is @Adnan here

Guys

DJMcMayhem

Doesn't look like it

Oliver

In 05AB1E, how would i turn ["1234", "123", "12", "1"] into [["1", "2", "3", "4"], ["1", "2", "3"], ["1", "2"], ["1"]]

How would I loop through a list in 05ab1e

ope

finally got it

its

€S

RosLuP

4:52 AM

Why us sell army and weapon to Arabic Saudi ? Or Am I not well informed? The distance in mathematics has a definition and propriety

Sherlock9

5:22 AM

You have just expressed three disjoint thoughts. Can you clarify?

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Can I sweep the mines? code-golf grid game Minesweeper is a popular puzzle game where you must discover which tiles are "mines" without clicking on those tiles. Instead, you click on nearby tiles to reveal the number of adjacent mines. One downside about the game is that it is possible to end...

DJMcMayhem

@NewSandboxedPosts Thankyou!

ASCII-only

6:45 AM

@Everyone help what should a golfing language do for for loops with a negative variable e.g. for(-3)

Fatalize

Iterate in the reverse order it would for for(3)

Destructible Watermelon

7:12 AM

I put in the link to repo I stupidly forgot, and added new snippet

2

A: Showcase your language one vote at a time

Dotsplit (whoops I forgot the link before :p) (pair of) Factoid(s): Dotsplit is a mostly syntax free language, with odd builtins (kind of like mathematica), but is currently in it's infancy. Dotsplit is named after the tokeniser used in the interpreter: str.split(). This is a weak tokeniser, b...

flawr

7:43 AM

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

8:07 AM

> tfw you name your blankets after top stackoverflow users

Martin Ender

Ongoing esolang design contest

@ASCII-only if your language is capable of inverting (some of) its own functions, then iterate the inverse of the function body 3 times

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

help me design a golfing version of ruby

ASCII-only

November 15? Plenty of time :D

Qwerp-Derp

Installing Allegro for C++

ASCII-only

> Can you design a language whose programs are games of chess

^ I think @Sherlock9 would be interested in this one (link for Sherlock)

Martin Ender

8:17 AM

@DmitryKudriavtsev ruby.janlelis.de/…

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

thanks

Martin Ender

@ASCII-only that one is basically taken verbatim from my list of language ideas :D

Sherlock9

@ASCII-only Indeed. No idea where to start though :D

Qwerp-Derp

That would be one heckuva programming language

@Sherlock9 Can I help?

ASCII-only

I wonder if submitting an existing language is allowed (also ;_; looks like it's Argentina only)

Qwerp-Derp

8:18 AM

If so, what lang is it going to be written in?

Martin Ender

esolangs.org/wiki/Chess

ASCII-only

@Sherlock9 Yeah

Martin Ender

@ASCII-only it's not

> The contest is open to the general public: professional programmers, amateurs, students, and anyone else interested, without regard of their nationality or place of residence.

Qwerp-Derp

Wait wait wait what's the contest?

ASCII-only

Oh TIL

Martin Ender

8:19 AM

@Qwerp-Derp bold link a few messages up

Qwerp-Derp

Ah

Should we do Chess? It seems like an interesting language

Sherlock9

@Qwerp-Derp I'm also in the middle of midterms and one or two other projects. Designing a novel language when I have never designed any language before (not fully, anyway) would be a bit of a handful

Qwerp-Derp

I can use the ways that @ASCII-only has shown me when writing Logicode

to make Chess

ASCII-only

IMO Retina/Jelly/V are worth submitting, maybe Charcoal just to name a few

@Qwerp-Derp You should probably use Charcoal's parser, it's tidier plus once you know what does what you can adapt it to Logicode as well

Qwerp-Derp

Ah

Nah Chess is fun

ASCII-only

8:24 AM

Anyone know a good compression library for non-word strings?

Sherlock9

@Qwerp-Derp It is a month away though. If you come up with something or vice versa, let's help each other, yeah?

Qwerp-Derp

Sure, but I've got exams in about a month or so, and I might need to start revising

Sherlock9

Ah, fair enough. Good luck to us both

Qwerp-Derp

@ASCII-only Where's the parser?

@Sherlock9 Ditto!

ASCII-only

@Qwerp-Derp Repo, main parser is near the bottom of charcoal.py, any file that has only one dictionary is probably a parser or a dictionary of lambdas used to process parser output

@Everyone how useful is RLE/shoco for strings for an ASCII-art-focused language

Anonymous

8:30 AM

@ASCII-only Shoco will be useless

ASCII-only

Depends on how many challenges use English words

mınxomaτ

TIL terminal.sexy

Anonymous

@MartinEnder I'll write a language called Tearless

muddyfish

does game of life count? :)

Anonymous

No, GoL has been known to be TC for a long time :P And unless you're John Conway, you didn't design it

Anonymous

8:36 AM

Though Phi might be interested in submitting QFTASM and/or Cogol

Martin Ender

8:49 AM

@Mego is that a pun I don't get?

Anonymous

Don't Cry for Me Argentina

"Don't Cry for Me Argentina" is a song recorded by Julie Covington for the 1976 concept album, Evita, and was later included in the 1978 musical of the same name. The song was written and composed by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice while they were researching the life of Argentinian leader Eva Perón. It appeared at the opening and near the end of the show, initially as the spirit of the dead Eva exhorting the people of Argentina not to mourn her, and finally during Eva's speech from the balcony of Casa Rosada. Covington was signed by the songwriters for the track, based on her previous work in...

Martin Ender

ah

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