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8:00 AM
added to standard loopholes:
A: Loopholes that are forbidden by default

randomraChanging your username to fit a username-dependent challenge Changing your username or registering a new one to make your score better in username-dependent challenges.

i approve of that, though I don't think we should have username-dependent challenges in the first
red vs blue is ID dependent too
oh, right
it's good for classification
that sounds like a legit use case
does your ID change with username?
8:02 AM
and there is the gravatar one
which one is that?
I wish there was a VTC for "too gimmicky" sometimes...
don't think so, but you can register a new user
maybe we need a "Challenges that people keep posting that have been way overdone"?
for new users in particular, there seems to be an irresistible appeal of "print X without X"
@xnor No, because someone could find an original way of using them.
8:04 AM
or "do X without Y"
@Katenkyo you're right, that's a snippy title
A: Loopholes that are forbidden by default

randomraChanging your username to fit a username dependent challenge Changing your username or registering a new one to make your score better in username or userID dependent challenges.

A: Are Quines played-out?

Calvin's HobbiesNo, quines are not played-out I believe there will always be new ways of formulating good challenges, and some of those yet to be made good challenges will involve quines. Saying "we've asked every quine problem there could ever be" is like saying we've thought of every math problem there could ...

If you use such a title, no one will ever try to re-use them, which would be pretty bad for this site
what I really mean is "challenges for which many similar variants have been done so you should make sure yours adds something particularly novel"
@xnor Much better :D
8:06 AM
this was discussed with quines in particular
I agree that quines are often pretty much the same thing
@xnor that's better
The problem is the lack of reflexion behind questions. Those type of challenge aren't hard to write, but people underestimate how hard it is to write a good and original one.
and they often are interesting, just new users don't have the context to know that many others found them interesting in the past and posted lots of similar things
also, the "X without Y" thing often fails with esoteric languages that a user who thinks in terms of c/python/java wouldn't anticipate
in that esoteric languages would not have used Y anyway
or it doesn't make sense to define Y for that language
Well to prove my point I've posted why I don't like this challenge :/
8:11 AM
@xnor I saw that, I've read like50% challenge of this site before signing in, and often, when a Q was closed as dupe, it was created by a new user.
Print X without Y is one thing, tying usernames is just worse
@xnor Those type of challenge are hard to define, really hard.
@Sp3000 why does your method no work for consecutive chars?
If you want to annoy esolangs, "without []()" could be nice, but bash and some other language don't use them at all etc
It's not very good honestly. For instance I could trivially beat Sp3000's entry with
8:13 AM
@xnor In your case it would be "wmnq":), but since your username has n you can't do that
(you could map by some other increment other than +1, but that's another byte)
oh, i see
but your username is 6 letters, so I could still beat that :-)
Yeah, but Katya could tie :P
there's grc...
I think we have a winner
3 chars is username min
there are people whose usernames are solely numbers, so that's allowed
if this user became active: codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/6983/888
8:18 AM
people with unicode characters in their name are probably annoyed
37 24* (5 bytes)
double 444 in Pyth
I mean 37*24
Ahaha or that
Pyth reads multidigit numbers, right?
Yeah, y444
8:19 AM
apparently it does
oh, apparently you subtract the length of your name
so now you want a really long name you can compress
I missed that part too
I've got /y^T8 9 for the user 22222222
for a score of -1
ooh, there's user 1001010
I think the other username is better, '28*
8:33 AM
that has a 2 :-)
... '1)8*
You saw nothing.
a bold move, posting a new version rather than editing
Oh it's the same then
Hahaha well mobile
.B937 for 1110101001
gives -5
you can probably do better with ss-3-1415926535897932384626433 if you have pi built in
though the prefix is unfortunate
That's a lot of digits though, more than a float
8:43 AM
user 1000000000 is ^T9
How are you finding these?
i just went to users and let 000 autocomplete
might not work on mobile
I'm done with food, so I'm on my laptop now :)
if you know how to query these, it's probably way better than what i'm doing
8:50 AM
18446744073709551615 is 2**64-1
whoa, what's that?
oh, nice
that's going to be hard to beat for the fantasy user challenge
8:54 AM
actually, what if you look at the longest-named users?
That's what I was thinking...
if the char limit is high enough, anything compressible should win
Char limit is 40 I think
Hmm the query takes a while because the output is long
But in any case it's
FROM Users
Nothing longer than 18446744073709551615 looks compressible to me
well, we could fantasize some more
what if you could choose any valid username?
(except maybe that pi one)
What constitutes a valid username? Any char?
9:00 AM
"Display Name can only contain letters, digits, spaces, apostrophes or hyphens and must start with a letter or digit"
Is there a length limit?
(Based on the data query I'm guessing 40 but I'm not sure)
the entry field lets me put in only 30
and that's the length of the pi username
so unless your query gives longer ones, that's probably it
Well the longest actual usernames lists are 30, but the query field seems to allow 40
Let's go with 30 though
by coincidence, 2^99 has 30 chars
and no 9's
@xnor that's what happens to new questions also (if a challenge is based on question names). They are not allowed.
9:07 AM
sorry, what's that in response to?
"new users wont be able to participate"
is there a source for that?
perhaps worth adding to the loophole
I have seen multiple questions in past
one was by martin only
@Sp3000 there's of course t^T30 to do 30 9's
i don't know
you have an overlapping 8 though
I keep switching between CJam and other things and thinking I get numbers for free
e.g. KK# is unfortunately 27 long
9:15 AM
how high do the numbers go?
Up to 20
what are you working on ?
I think usernames can have dots so PP would also be a prime candidate, but that's 34 chars
any chance squaring is a single char?
(we're seeing how bad exactly the username challenge idea is by trying to find the worst case by making up usernames)
Nope, not that I know of
9:17 AM
what about doubling?
Only Pyth does that :P
i've been spoiled
The only languages I know with a single char for squaring are Deadfish variants... not very useful here
i found how make a 63-char number output in 2 chars of Pyth
not useful here, but i think it's cute
If you include languages which give some sort of message (to STDOUT for some reason) on error, things could get a little crazy
9:20 AM
@xnor What is it?
Of course, yG is the real winner
Around 1 billion characters
Should have said that last line before I plugged it in online :P
i was wondering why i wasn't getting output :)
9:22 AM
I tried it on my machine, it ate all the ram. Almost crashed.
"An error occurred in the application and your page could not be served. Please try again in a few moments."
hifives xnor
@Sp3000 Are you trying to get some negative scores because of long username/short arithmetic code? ^^
We already have negative scores, we're trying to get negativer
How negative are you actually? -10?
9:24 AM
with existing usernames, -16
with fake ones, -25 i think
-26 actually
Wow, cracked !
@Sp3000 i missed your 4-char then
Well done guys !
9:25 AM
That's cos I didn't post - Y99#, CJam doesn't need the space
is there an existing user name like that ?
@Optimizer nope, but there one that's the number 2**64-1
Hence the "With existing, -16. With fake, -26"
@xnor link ?
Damnit xnor
9:27 AM
nominate Sp3000
You post again, I'll wait
no, you were first
i do insist
I'm trying to do that challenge in Pyth, and it's really hard. G and C are the primary ways to generate strings in Pyth.
9:31 AM
Unrelated, but sometimes I wish the Unscramble the Code challenge was still going. It'd be interesting to give puzzles which test how well you know the syntax of a language...
@isaacg man, you have bad luck with your letter choices
i vaguely remember some other challenge being ruined by G
Has anyone even written a Pyth quine yet?
Ignoring that sort of thing
the empty string got banned :-)
9:32 AM
That's the shortest one I know.
err, did we destroy your server?
That's missing the ] I think
Oh, wait the ] is a mistake?
I meant
It's needed
Ah right
@Sp3000 I think these type of challenges could be relaunched sometimes, for the glory of fun :)
With some modification, for sure
9:36 AM
Ahaha, CnRs do feel like they could be repeatable sometimes...
Simple example for Python: Unscramble ()-...25::>def or so it produces no errors
just making it valid code
@Sp3000 I think it could be, just ban cops answers from the previous one.
(I put the space between f and o because otherwise it wouldn't show obviously)
RoboCritters is just waiting for a quine question
(or a quine answer somewhere...)
@Sp3000 maybe this is simple, but i'm stuck
i have no idea how to get rid of two colons
9:46 AM
I'm working on it too
I can only use the colon on the def, and nothing else.
i can't see a way to use it as a slice without []
@Sp3000 Python 2 or 3?
Woops should have specified, Python 3
9:53 AM
Nope, just testing in 3.4
Might also work before that too, will check
Yeah it should work fine in all of Python 3
Alright, got the two :
Now I'm working on the .
10:12 AM
Got it
def o(r:2)->5:...
Nice! :)
That was fun
I have no idea what that means
->? o(r:2)?
The first is function annotations, which is mainly for def square(n: int) -> int: return n**2
And the ... is the Ellipsis object, which is more for numpy and such
I know ..., but I'd never seen the annotations before.
Well now you do! Useless in golf, but good for code documentation I guess :)
10:16 AM
MIght be helpful in Pyth, I guess.
Probably not
Well the annotation shows up in the REPL, so it might if you use that for debugging
But docstrings might be more useful
@flawr may I use your cat&catcher controller as a starting point for my timetravel koth?
1 hour later…
11:55 AM
The Great Wumpus Hunt KotH is so much random, it's sad :/
12:09 PM
Q: Chaining autograms

CJ DennisWrite a program that takes one integer input n and one format letter and outputs n autograms in the format This sentence contains ? "A"s, ? "B"s ... and ? "Z"s. Each question mark ? represents the number of times the the following letter appears in the text The integer (let's call it n) is used...

@Katenkyo oh, I thought that's an older challenge, I almost haven't noticed it
It's a new one, but you often spawn on the wumpus, changing completely the outcome :/
that seems like a rather large oversight
Yeah it's slightly annoying :)
Total rounds: 1500
Humans killed by arrows: 4
Wumpus victories: 923
Can't lower him below 60% win >_<
Ho, 59% win for the wumpus, better now :D
Total rounds: 10000
Humans killed by arrows: 1
Wumpus victories: 4185
Stats fort only 4x my bot, so i'm losing cause of others... ok, I take note
12:28 PM
Q: Extending OEIS: Counting Diamond Tilings

Martin BüttnerI promise, this will be my last challenge about diamong tilings (for a while, anyway). On the bright side, this challenge doesn't have anything to do with ASCII art, and is not a code golf either, so this is actually completely different. So just as a reminder, every hexagon can be titled with t...

12:54 PM
hm, test cases for Boggle Board Compression ... what do people think about just having N-2 strings from length 3 to N, and the test cases are then just all prefixes of that (i.e. just the first string, just the first two strings, just the first three strings, etc. up to all N-2 strings).
that would have less value than a different set for all cases
if one algorithm is good on only that set, it might have an unfair advantage
but the new, extra strings are longer, so that might mitigate this problem
I'd probably just make the strings random
how big alphabet would you use?
I'm not sure yet. small enough that there is an interesting amount of overlap
also depends on N
yeah, I have difficulty imagining it with 32+ sized alphabet
1:07 PM
+1 randomra, I think between 12 and 17 would be more than enough
You could go up to N=30 with lots of overlappings/interesting things
I might try just using the alphabet and see how much overlap I get from random strings
I think hexadecimal would be more interesting, the alphabet might be way too large :x
Have to be tested
yeah I'll check it out
How much action MAXIMUM do you think I could leave as choices in a KotH?
my (completely random) guess would be around |alph|=16-20, N=32-50
1:23 PM
hi all
I was thinking posting a chess challenge..
how many queens does it take to cover an n by n chess board
does anyone know if this has been done?
Q: Domination problem in chess

thunder1123Given an mxm chess board, find a minimum number of pieces of the given kind and place them on a chess board in such a way that all squares are either occupied or attacked by at least one piece. Input The input consists of two parameters: m, the number of squares on each side; and a letter which...

It is a common problem in computing world :3

PSA: The "0x" prefix on hexadecimal numbers is pronounced "hug-kiss". As in "hug-kiss dead beef". Use it in your next talk.
mine would be fastest code and the winner would be the person who got to the largest n
1:26 PM
Mainly known in the form "how to put n queens on a n*n chessboard"
@Katenkyo isn't that usually so they don't attack each other?
@Katenkyo is there a known solution for my version of the problem?
@ThomasRoss twitter links onebox if you post just the link
I think the solution for yours is derivated from the solution of the n queens for n*n
PSA: The "0x" prefix on hexadecimal numbers is pronounced "hug-kiss". As in "hug-kiss dead beef". Use it in your next talk.
1:28 PM
@Katenkyo It's NP-hard apparently
@Lembik I don't know how NP it is, not familiar with this term ^^'
Never looked at that when working on an algorythm ^^'
More concerned about suppressing the worst solution it will produce, than if it can find the best one
Hi, I have a quick question. How long should I wait for responses after posting something in the sandbox? Is one day enough?
@MartinBüttner I really love your "Extending OEIS" question
@JNV two days is good
1:34 PM
@TheE Thanks for the edit on wumpus, couldn't do it by myself
@JNV Depends of the time you need to make it perfect
@Lembik Maybe that'll get you to answer a challenge for once? ;)
@MartinBüttner :) I can only take your criticism on the chin
@MartinBüttner we should have a whole series of them
@Lembik Thanks. @Katenkyo I think it's pretty fine now. But I'll wait a bit more. Thanks.
OEIS challenges that is.. not criticisms of me :)
Sure, but that depends on finding sequences that are a) interesting b) conceptually simple and c) haven't been studied thoroughly yet. I think the diamond tilings was a really lucky find. I don't expect to find more of these easily.
1:37 PM
Hey y'all :)
@Vioz- Hi
@MartinBüttner agreed
It could be the second time PPCG contribute to OEIS, would be nice ^^
it would be great!
I feel there is a lot of talent in PPCG that should be contributing more than CJam to the world :)
@Katenkyo that reminds me, I still need to propose the fix for the Fission numbers
(that's not an important contribution though, those were merely typos)
1:43 PM
@MartinB├╝ttner So it could be the third one ^^'. Even typos are important to correct if someone wanna work with it someday
Guys, i've a problem with the koth i'm designing
Currently, players have 5 "actions" possible + 1 between 5 capacities that can be used. Way to much isn't it? :/
I'm not sure what you mean by "1 between 5 capacities"
Why is it too much? Too complicated to write answers for? Too many possibilities for a decision tree? Too unwieldy for I/O?
have you posted it in the sandbox yet?
Often simplicity makes for a better challenge and more answers, but if there's a good reason for adding a feature then add it
5 actions really isn't too much. Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock had five actions.
1:48 PM
Is that "a choice from 5 options" or "5 choices to make, each of which has several available options"?
@PhiNotPi Agreed - 5 options to choose from is definitely fine. And 8 directions to choose from in a grid based KotH works well too
So basically, you dirige 6 cells, which can : Clone,Move,attack,explode. Each of them can have 1 (special case of 2) capacity between : Eat,Fire,Thunder,Merge,Heal. It's about guiding and expending/merging your cells to fight your opponent
Each cells have stats that are set by the player at start, and change with merging/eat
@trichoplax I agree with that point, that's why i'm scared it's a lot more to complicated
@PhiNotPi Still redacting it
(it's on a 2D grid, 8directions)
That doesn't seem obviously too much. It might turn out to be with testing, but I'd run a few basic strategies and see
Does a player choose which capacity to give each of its cells? Or are the capacities assigned by the KotH controller?
@trichoplax Ok, so i'll do that. Finishing the redaction, then will draw some basic strats
Tricho -> It's the palyer's choice
I think it is more interesting if the starting setup can be modified
Did you know you can edit by pressing up, or by clicking on the down arrow if you hover left of the post?
@trichoplax No, didn't, thanks !
1:57 PM
@Katenkyo I think so too. It also means that early answers can focus on a specific capacity and give it to all their cells, which allows simple strategies early on
Time for a pause, brb
@trichoplax Yeah, but if it is complicated in itself, people won't bother trying it ^^'
@Katenkyo Good point. If you want it to be clear that a strategy doesn't need to use everything mentioned in the question, you can include a simple example answer that only uses one or two features, then people can work to beat that
@PhiNotPi does it maybe need some definition of how input/output can be encoded for the proof of Turing completeness, since actual I/O should not be considered?
What would that definition be?
Is I/O even needed for Turing completeness?
well you need some input to your computable function and the result of said computable function needs to go somewhere, right?
it's usually sufficient if that is some internal state.
@PhiNotPi I see some unmatched asterisks
(no footnotes)
2:19 PM
@trichoplax I know.
@trichoplax I think 4 bots would be a reasonable amount, allowing to some interesting possibilities that doesn't have to use every features
For example, instead of writing a program that takes a number as input and outputs whether or not it is prime, like $input=<>; primeTestHere you could simply write a new program for each number you wanted to test, like $input=2; primeTestHere then $input=3; primeTestHere then $input=4; primeTestHere etc.
@Katenkyo Does "bots" here mean cell types, total number of starting cells, or answers to the question?
Painfully inconvenient, but that's not the point.
@PhiNotPi of course, that's how I expect it will go
but that doesn't even matter for the actual code
my concern is more for people who have to prove Turing completeness
2:25 PM
@Katenkyo Am I right in thinking that if you start with 4 cells, each will have a certain capacity which cannot be changed, and all the descendents of a given cell will have the same capacity as it?
If this were your challenge, how would you define it?
but "When proving Turing-completeness, you may assume that input is hardcoded into the program, and output can be read off the program's internal state." might be sufficient
I wish Peter was around :/
That's probably good.
For example, would halt iff true but infinite loop iff false count as output?
ehm... I'm not sure about that
I think it would, since there would also be a program running at the same time that is infinite loop iff true, halt iff false.
2:27 PM
@trichoplax A bot means an answers. A bot will control all of its cells each turn (there's an extra parameter for each cell that you can use like you want, it could be easier to remind the role of each cells, and act accordingly)
@PhiNotPi not necessarily
@Katenkyo Ah I see. So you're suggesting writing 4 example answers?
isn't that the crux of the halting problem?
you can determine if a problem halts, but you can't determine if it doesn't.
@trichoplax Yes, you are right to assume that, by cloning, I really mean cloning ^^
@trichoplax That's it
That sounds good. So the example answers could each focus on just one capacity, and then people who add later answers can start to combine different capacities that support each other and build up more complex strategies
2:29 PM
In the meantime, I'll just copy-pasta what you said.
@MartinB├╝ttner I wish Peter were around (in case that helps with missing him...)
@Peter, if you don't show up in the next five minutes, we will rename this site to "Programming Popularity Contests and Code Bowling".
Maybe that will get him?
PPCCB, nice name ^^
2:46 PM
What should I title my post?
"Output every hating program (write a parallel interpreter)"
Or should I drop the stuff in parentheses?
(just had to wait for the 2 minute edit window to expire before starring the amusing typo ;) )
"If your program outputs itself, it is probably wrong."
probably going to add that as a rule

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