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02:00 - 19:0019:00 - 00:00

7:00 PM
Perhaps it'd be fair to add 1 for each "extra" file
 
that was my inclination
since a separate file is basically like a "file break" character
 
Indeed
 
I'm happy to do that in the future if there's a consensus about this on meta, but currently that's not how we roll. ;) (Also if we bring this up on meta we should address reusing file names at the same time.)
 
that's still not quite fair, since you basically get to pretend that one character is only one byte
despite the fact that your source files might have all other bytes allocated to different characters
 
it's always the same character
I can just write my language to use a single file and some unprintable character that I never use instead
 
7:03 PM
I think it's as fair as is necessary
 
yeah, I mean it just allows you to effectively have 257 1-byte characters
 
@Runer112 even then, this is a very insubstantial benefit
 
but that's probably not worth considering
 
Compare APL, esolangs using UTF-16 codepoints, etc
 
I don't know how to make a fancy meta post, but if one is made, I'll vote for additional file = +1 character
 
7:04 PM
I'll post it
 
(important distinction between +1 byte and +1 character, I think)
maybe, I could be thinking about this wrong
 
arguably, you could say the the 1 byte is the space in the invocation
 
I think +1 character is right if you're considering the file break basically like a character
 
(or the file name if it's a single-character file name)
 
well
if your language uses 4-byte characters
 
7:05 PM
Actually, couldn't Retina just use a form feed character for the "file break"?
 
doesn't seem fair to get a 1-byte "character" for free in the form of a file break
 
@FireFly sure, but that's an additional byte :P
 
I'm assuming wanting to match the form-feed byte unescaped is rare enough to make it negligible
 
hmm
but then you can use a language with 0-byte characters and we're back to unfairness :p
 
@Runer112 if you do this, it's your own fault for not counting in UTF-8
 
7:07 PM
@MartinBüttner right, but it's very explicitly within the bounds of a byte (octet) rather than a 257-valued byte (not that it matters much)
 
I can't really wrap my head around whether it should be 1 byte or 1 character
 
yeah I'm really not fussed about counting this as 1 byte
 
I don't think the distinction is meaningful enough
 
there is essentially no room for abuse
 
probably 1 byte
 
7:08 PM
writing up the meta post now...
 
hmm
I wonder if anyone has abused the command-line flag ruling yet
to get more than one byte's worth of value out of a flag
 
what is one byte worth, really?
also, it usually costs (1 to) 3 bytes
 
I heard 1
 
lol I swear this discussion is repeated every other day :D
I'll find you a link when I'm done with the meta post
 
I heard 5
 
7:11 PM
do we actually have our rules somewhere
I've never looked, but I can't obviously see them anywhere
 
Yes, by searching meta for suitable posts :P
 
except for in our minds ?
 
eww
 
most of them are in the code golf tag wiki
but not all of them
 
There's a standard loopholes post at least
 
7:15 PM
Is it difficult to type "flags count" into the search box? We could compile every single post about what counts and what doesn't and make a directory type post that links to all of the other posts. Seems like a lot of effort.
 
@Rainbolt It's called "the tag wiki"
 
pardon my n00biness, but where's the tag wiki
I know I can search for tags, but that doesn't seem like what you're getting at
 
"learn more"
or "info" depending on where you are
 
I have absolutely no idea how you got to that page
 
click on the tag anywhere on the page
then there's a "learn more" in the box at the top
otherwise, hover over a tag and click "info" in the overlay that pops up
 
7:22 PM
ah
 
Someone please peer review my edit: codegolf.stackexchange.com/tags/code-golf/info
 
"the score should include any penalty for flags"
that's leaving it quite vague
 
Well, that's because my edit hasn't been accepted yet.
I don't guess you have the ability to see it
 
posted on meta
 
sigh My coworkers seem to have trouble with the easiest part of code review. Does it build? Yes? Great. No? Don't check that crap in!
 
7:28 PM
@Rainbolt I've approved that but it seems specific to encodings, not flags in general.
Maybe that blurb should be replaced with "you can use any encoding that you didn't make up" and a separate paragraph summarising the rules for compiler flags.
 
@Martin My edit wasn't related to your new meta post at all. It was meant to capture the "non standard compiler flags do count" bit.
 
neither is my comment :P
I'm saying you edited the "non standard compiler flags do count" bit into a paragraph that only talks about encodings.
 
Can I amend my edit in the middle of a review?
 
ummm, I don't know
 
I will change to "It is accepted practice to count non-standard compiler flags or any other non-standard marks required to get the interpreter/compiler to do what you need it to do as part of the score."
 
7:30 PM
try?
 
Does that sound better?
 
yeah, but then the bit about encoding is gone entirely (which I think is important). hence the suggestion to just put the compiler flag stuff into its own paragraph, and change the encoding bit to say that the encoding must have existed before the challenge (just as the language)
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

HSchmaleIdentifying a Sonnet This challenge is about determining if a given file (read-in from stdin) meets the criteria to be a sonnet. You may use any language for this challenge. Definition of a Sonnet Has 14 Lines (lines are denoted as the standard newline on your operating system). Has a definit...

 
Do we treat non standard encoding flags differently than we treat every other non standard flag?
I'm trying to generalize it on purpose.
If it's non standard, it counts. Otherwise, it doesn't.
Tell me it works differently for encodings?
(edited the tag again)
 
1
Q: Counting bytes for multi-file programs

Martin BüttnerSo far, submissions consisting of multiple files have simply been counted by summing up the scores of the individual files. Also file names aren't counted as long as they are arbitrary. (We do count file names if the code depends on them to work correctly.) I've been making (ab?)use of that in R...

 
7:39 PM
@Rainbolt I've added three bytes to your last revision, hope you don't mind ;)
 
by the same logic of 3 bytes per additional flag, we should have 2 bytes per additional file
given the language can read single character file name without any extensions
 
it's not the same logic though
there is no "shortest equivalent invocation without the file", because the program needs the separate files
 
well, the programs also need the flags
so not sure why you bring that up
 
well that's fair enough I guess... but you don't really get more than one character's worth by splitting the files, do you? and most of the time you can actually get the flags for a single byte, since most interpreters that have interesting flags also have -e
 
from my recent memory, that has not been the case. say fish or joe
 
7:45 PM
if Joe doesn't have it, that's @Sieg's fault :P
 
Who came up with "3 bytes per additional flag"?
 
dunno
 
but the logic behind it was that you have to type three extra chars
space minus <flag character>
 
btw
I actually said earlier that the byte you count is the space
because we don't count file names
 
7:46 PM
Well ok. So the actual rule is that if you add the number of extra characters required to add the flag.
Be it three or four or a hundred
 
@MartinBüttner well, but in this case, you would have to because code is spread , i guess
 
I don't know much about compiler flags. Maybe they all cost three characters.
 
@Rainbolt not if u can chain -eftghj
 
@Rainbolt it really depends on the compiler and how you invoke it
 
@Optimizer If you chain -abcde and -a is standard and -b, -c, -d, and -e are non standard, it seems like you would gain four characters.
 
7:48 PM
@Optimizer also, I never said I agreed with the consensus on counting flags, so I don't think I'm obligated to propose a consistent rule :P
@Rainbolt yes, that's the rule
 
consistent favorable rule ? :P
 
So the three characters thing was a fluke...
(glad I asked)
 
@Rainbolt well it's not
 
@MartinBüttner suppose you have 1000+ files. then I think I would start counting additional files as more than 2 bytes
 
if your compiler doesn't have any standard flag you could use
 
7:50 PM
so lets call the rule as "space + file name length"
and ideally, you can use a single character file name
 
@Optimizer why? it doesn't give you more benefit than reserving a character and putting all the files into one, delimited by that character.
 
@MartinBüttner It's not a fluke? I'm so confused now. Do non standard flags count for three bytes or not? Please just be clear.
 
@MartinBüttner if that's possible, then why not ?
 
@Rainbolt can you invoke your code as lang -e "code"? then lang -eb "code" is one byte. can you not invoke your code like that, but do you have to call it as lang file? then lang -b file is 3 bytes.
@Optimizer because convenience... you'd probably use an unprintable character as the delimiter which you don't use otherwise
it doesn't really add anything and just makes things more annoying for everyone involved
 
@Martin So again, the three character per flag is total nonsense, and the real rule is you add x characters to your score where x is the number of additional characters you had to type. x could be three, but it could also a hundred other things. Three has nothing to do with it.
It was a fluke.
 
7:54 PM
yes.
 
wow, that must be your down vote martin :P
 
Call me annoyingly persistent, but if this stuff is going into the tag, it should be clear. You did say it comes up every other day.
 
I don't why you want to force people to use unprintable characters as delimiters instead of just splitting this up into files.
 
but my answer is consistent to how we are all agreeing on additional flags are counted into score
 
7:58 PM
@Rainbolt yeah, the tag wiki would not have read "flags count 3 bytes" ;)
@Optimizer yay for consistency.
I really don't understand why you're so keen using the same (pretty random) approach for a completely different problem. it's apples and oranges anyway...
 
see my latest comment
 
that is not the point :/
 
the point is that file names are important too
 
I said in the question "(We do count file names if the code depends on them to work correctly.)"
if you outsource your code to a file name, you count the file name
that's one of the top voted comments in the standard loopholes
 
I think we should more of consistent that more of if elses
and yours is the same argument as what is counted as comment
 
8:03 PM
sorry but I'm rolling back your edit because it contradicts the premise of my question (which I've explicitly mentioned in the first paragraph)
 
again
59 secs ago, by Optimizer
and yours is the same argument as what is counted as comment
 
I don't know what you're talking about
 
commented with link.
and i am off to bed. my answer is there, lets see what people have to say.
 
@Optimizer I really don't see the connection, but you can tell me about that tomorrow.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:42 PM
@Rainbolt Is your answer any different from this (except for being funnier?)
 
@MartinBüttner I don't like the way you presented it
First, you disconnect yourself from the answer. I wholly back mine. Second, you state "this is not an issue". It's not clear what you are talking about there.
"This is not an issue" either means that there is no question worth answering here, or the answer to the question is no because the abuse is not an issue
 
Well, "this" being the loopholes
that's okay though, I'll delete mine
 
Yes. Again, I think we said the same thing, I just don't like how it was presented
And admittedly I did want to make a joke out of code golf being scored as file golf. Somehow that joke slipped away while I was writing...
And then there's the example. I like the example a lot
And then I wanted to label "abuse" as "language feature"
It's all very political
 
 
1 hour later…
11:07 PM
@MartinBüttner Too fast with Retina!
Although... is that a char class in a char class?
 
@Sp3000 it is (see explanation or answer to the previous challenge)
actually, I still had the PowerShell open in which I tested the previous submission, which is why I was this fast :D
@Optimizer I left you CJam this time ;)
 
Heh, that just gives another reason for CJam to have regexes
 
11:26 PM
Regexes so powerful it's actually worth doing import re for this question...
... I think
 
11:58 PM
@MartinBüttner umm what should that do? split?
 
ok
 
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