The Nineteenth Byte

Calvin's Hobbies

3:00 AM

Good. That works

Alex A.

Uh... Okay...?

Sp3000

Alex R. A.

Alex A.

Did you just find a random R answer of mine? :P

Sp3000

Heck, it was the second one I tried :P

Alex A.

I suppose I do have a fairly large number of R answers.

Sp3000

3:04 AM

If we're going by answers, maybe you'll considered changing to Alex Julia A.? :)

Alex A.

How about Julia R LOLCODE?

Sp3000

How many LOLCODE answers do you even have? I can only think of one

Alex A.

Mm, at least 2 not counting the tips for golfing in LOLCODE.

2 non-tips

4 tips

Oh, I have 19 APL answers.

Calvin's Hobbies

Julia R Apple

Alex A.

124 Julia answers :O

New Main Posts

3:14 AM

0

Q: what's the Software Environment of IDE for this kind of Drawing?

I just want to know I should use Which software environment of IDE.

Alex A.

I wish there was a close reason: "Your question is on topic nowhere."

Doorknob

@AlexA. I'm sure the people on SO will be very glad to hear that we told that guy to post over there...

Alex A.

What would you have closed it as?

Doorknob

a custom off-topic close reason

"This question appears to be off-topic beacuse it is not a programming challenge or contest."

Alex A.

Okay, fixed.

DankMemes

3:17 AM

Why do people post questions on codegolf that belong on SO?

PhiNotPi

> beacuse

DankMemes

I see a lot of those

Doorknob

@DankMemes because people don't read

Alex A.

Sometimes they don't know SO.

But this question shouldn't be anywhere on SE.

Sp3000

"SO is too polluted with junk and this site has moderate activity. Maybe my question will actually get attention here!"

Doorknob

3:18 AM

"This site has "programming" in the title. Let's post here!"

PhiNotPi

(Alex, fix your typo)

Where?

In your comment

Ok, thanks

so why don't we just have a huge banner on the ask page that says "If you're not posting a programming competition or asking about golfing tips then go away"? :P

Alex A.

3:21 AM

@DankMemes It's assumed that people will read the "about" page. They don't.

Tempted to say, "This question is not on topic for the Stack Exchange network. I recommend posting your question to Yahoo! Answers or similar."

PhiNotPi

To the right side of the ask page, there's a big box saying "Is your question a programming puzzle or code golf challenge?"

DankMemes

hey there's actually an about page

wow never noticed that

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi The guy tagged it code golf, which I find rather odd.

DankMemes

well if it's a general programming question and tagged code golf it's clearly just attention-seeking

Alex A.

It's not even a general programming question.

It's nothing.

DankMemes

3:24 AM

oh I see

"not on topic anywhere on SE"

ugh when People Capitalize randomly it Really Bugs me

Alex A.

oH It d0Es?

Calvin's Hobbies

Is pixel-art a necessary tag?

PhiNotPi

How Can Capitalization Be Real If My Eyes Aren't Real?

Alex A.

@Calvin'sHobbies I didn't even realize it existed.

PhiNotPi

no, it is not a necessary tag

DankMemes

3:28 AM

hOw can YoUR eyEs BE REaL If nOTHiNG is reAl?

PhiNotPi

CamelCaseUsernamesAreTheBest

Alex A.

lowerCamelCaseUserNamesAreEvenBetter

DankMemes

How about user_hungarianNotationUsername?

Alex A.

xPpCgxUSrx420x

DankMemes

best username ever; I'm changing mine right now :P

PhiNotPi

3:35 AM

xxXXyoLOsWagmONEyXXxx

DankMemes

XxX_NOSc0P3yOL0$wA9swAgUwOtm8moneY_XXx

PhiNotPi

3:52 AM

gr8 b8 m8, I r8 8/8

Alex A.

Who rates things out of 8?

memes

You mean DankMemes?

memers

4:06 AM

948 4 18

python django list dictionary python-2.7 flask for-loop

Sp3000

4:26 AM

@Dennis I don't think the element name needs to be capitalised, so that should save a few

Alex A.

s/ised/ized/

Sp3000

I reject that edit :P

Alex A.

s/reject/accept and appreciate/

Dennis

Oh, right. Thanks!

Sp3000

@AlexA. I apologise, but I'd like to emphasise that I synthesise words how I vocalise, which has me localise and Anglicise for I despise what I do not recognise.

3

Alex A.

4:36 AM

That sentence hurts my life but I respect it.

Sp3000

In all honesty, that came up with so much red on Chrome's spell checker it made me realise I had my language setting on the default (US)

Alex A.

Haha

Sp3000

Damnit Dennis, now I have to delete my short-lived comment :P

Hafnium ain't as awesome

Dennis

Haha. Sorry.

Sp3000

Does er work with more than just replacing chars? From memory I think it did, but I can't remember how

Dennis

4:51 AM

Yes, it even takes blocks.

aditsu himself was surprised. :P

Alex A.

> This answer could be mistaken for Mathematica because it's (⌐■_■) Wolfram.

I don't understand

Dennis

(er doesn't actually save any bytes. I thought getting rid of % would let me use a single permalink, but nope.)

@AlexA. The answer was 74 bytes long. The 74th element of the periodic table is Tungsten/Wolfram.

Sp3000

(which is why Tungsten has element symbol W)

btw I like the )"ium"|

Alex A.

I had no idea it was also called Wolfram.

Steven Wolfram must be so proud.

Though apparently he's quite an unpleasant person.

🍍🍍🍍🍍

Dennis

I keep forgetting it's called Tungsten in English.

> The word tungsten comes from the Swedish language tung sten, which directly translates to heavy stone. Its name in Swedish is volfram, however[.]

Sounds legit.

Alex A.

4:55 AM

translate: volfram

(from Swedish) Tungsten

@Doorknob vim seems not to like emojis; it makes the spacing all weird.

Sp3000

btw @Dennis I get 225 on Lazy XML Parser with zopfli deflate for some reason

For Bubblegum

Dennis

@Sp3000 Yeah, that saves quite a few bytes. I was thinking about doing something similar for all concatenations, but it doesn't quite work yet.

undergroundmonorail

me: wow, ><> is a cool language and i'm proud of my first attempt at it

@Sp3000:

>:(

Sp3000

:D

undergroundmonorail

i had a really good solution except it printed 3.1415...9899012345678910111213

i was so mad when i saw it

because like, duh, of course that was going to happen

Sp3000

5:04 AM

Yeah, printing the extra zeroes adds about, er, 8 bytes or something :/

Dennis

@Sp3000 Not sure how that's possible.

Sp3000

@Dennis Unfortunately I'm on Windows and i don't have xxd, but here's Cygwin's hexdump: link

undergroundmonorail

something i did in mine was i branched off after printing 99 then pushed 1, 0, 0 to the stack. the 1 stayed on the stack as garbage forever, but i printed the first 0, duped the second 0 and printed the dupe, and came back around to the part that pushes 1,0,0.

except i had changed the first 0 to +

so it added one to the second digit each time

Sp3000

Ah...

undergroundmonorail

i don't know if that's good but that was the point when i was like

"okay. i'm starting to get ><>"

i thought of a way better strategy though so i'm trying that out now

Sp3000

5:13 AM

:) k - tbh I wouldn't be surprised if someone else on the site did even better. It's only been on for a day and I've already been surprised, e.g. check out this challenge

undergroundmonorail

yo that's a really good bf challege haha

Sp3000

It's a challenge where ><> ties with gs2 o_O

undergroundmonorail

do you know what people are doing when they answer in brainfuck and (cheat)? i looked at someone's "cheaty" brainfuck in a post mortem and gave up when it began with -[+<-]

Sp3000

I assume cheat means they probably assume something about the input that wouldn't work in all cases

Dennis

@Sp3000 Works perfectly. Thanks!

Sp3000

5:16 AM

I should just send you the other improvement while I'm at it. Gimme a sec Dennis

Dennis

(Reminds me that FizzBuzz coud also be shortened.)

undergroundmonorail

that's what i assumed but i was confused when i looked at that code because like

-[+<-] shouldn't terminate

unless the tape rules on anarchy golf are different than what i'm used to

Dennis

@Sp3000 I got 129 with zlib. How long is it with your zopfli?

undergroundmonorail

like the only way that terminates is if there's a 1 on the tape somewhere, right?

Sp3000

129 zlib, 132 deflate zopfli

Saves me sending it, because I was just going to send the zlib

Dennis

5:18 AM

I never thought I'd actually get to edit Bubblegum answers. :P

Sp3000

@undergroundmonorail Depends if the interpreter has a size limit for the number of cells or something

So I guess cheat could also refer to implementation-specific behaviour

undergroundmonorail

true

Sp3000

btw for Bubblegum, something like x could be a much easier way to solve output-twice-length-of-code :P

Dennis

I used a non-ASCII char to prevent a leading space in the output. I thought it would prevent confusion...

Sp3000

... ah :P

@undergroundmonorail btw here's a question which begs to be cheated: link :P

(Alternatively this one, but this one was intended)

DankMemes

5:28 AM

on the first one, why does one PHP submission just call rand()?

Sp3000

Because it's easier to pass the tests that way than to actually read input :P

DankMemes

so the tests don't require 100% accuracy?

why?

undergroundmonorail

no they do

you can just submit more than once

fake it till u make it

Sp3000

The fact that it's automated testing means that you can apply some very different golf tips there

DankMemes

> fake it till you make it

lol

Sp3000

5:39 AM

Hey xsot (^o^)ノ

xsot

Hi :)

Sp3000

btw I never figured out how you managed to shave another 2 bytes off not PI for Python :P so gj

Alex A.

gj?

xsot

Some metagolfing was necessary.

Alex A.

gj = golfjob?

Dennis

5:45 AM

Clearly good jolfing.

Alex A.

Glorious Joestar

Sp3000

Metagolfing eh, hm...

Calvin's Hobbies

Easy(ish) challenge to make: Draw the Fissile numbers ascii art tree

Sp3000

Hard(ish) challenge to solve :P

Alex A.

F(ish)

Dennis

5:54 AM

>(<>)

Calvin's Hobbies

@Dennis The tail got out of the bowl

Dennis

:)

Alex A.

Or the fish is wearing a fancy hat

Beta Decay

Sombrero wearing fish from above

Alex A.

I read that as a sombrero that wears a fish

New Meta Posts

6:08 AM

0

Q: "Way too long" - Allowed or Disallowed?

During my time at PPCG I've seen many answers which don't post the byte count, but instead put "way too long". For example, Thomas Kwa's answer here. I have also seen this on a plethora of Java answers. Personally I find this rather irritating as I still want to see the answer's byte count. So w...

discussion answers

Beta Decay

@AlexA. Hm, works either way :D

Alex A.

Beta Decay

:D

Calvin's Hobbies

How is this not on OEIS? Numbers where consecutive groups of digits add to 10. >:(

Alex A.

OEIS accepts submissions, you know.

Calvin's Hobbies

6:13 AM

Shhh

Alex A.

@BetaDecay I probably would have waited on accepting the meta answer in case others with differing views come along and the consensus is against what I said.

@Calvin'sHobbies So you'd rather complain that the sequence isn't in OEIS than submit it to OEIS? :P

Beta Decay

@AlexA. Oh, okay, I'll wait

Calvin's Hobbies

@AlexA. Just like most people would rather complain about taxes than become politicians ;)

Alex A.

Haha

Calvin's Hobbies

Anyway, it has weird peaks

Sp3000

6:16 AM

Admittedly I can think of one answer I still haven't scored even now because it was too annoying to (but feersum did it for me I guess) :P

Alex A.

Tsk tsk :P

@Calvin'sHobbies This is an aesthetically pleasing graph.

How do you produce such things?

Beta Decay

@Calvin'sHobbies The Orthodontist's staircase - smooth and aesthetically plelasing

Calvin's Hobbies

@AlexA. Just for that you can give it an _____'s-staircase name which I'll use if I make a challenge about it

Alex A.

Calvin's staircase?

No, you use elevators

Beta Decay

You better make this good Alex ;)

Alex A.

6:20 AM

I'm thinking

Calvin's Hobbies

I don't want to name it after me

Alex A.

Okay

Beta Decay

Kelvin's Staircase

Calvin's Hobbies

In binary these would be Evil Numbers (sum to 2 instead of 10)

Alex A.

My girlfriend really wants it to be called a "squishy staircase." I disagree with this.

You could call it Richie's Escalator

Calvin's Hobbies

6:26 AM

5 mins ago, by Calvin's Hobbies

I don't want to name it after me

Alex A.

You already said that

Calvin's Hobbies

Well where did "Richie" come from?

Alex A.

Idk

Calvin's Hobbies

Because that's my name irl

Alex A.

No it's not

Calvin's Hobbies

6:28 AM

Well, you would know better than me.

Alex A.

I'm glad we agree on that.

randomra

@Sp3000 I'm after you! :)

:o

why isn't an image?

http ?

6:29 AM

!

Alex A.

ftfy

randomra

thanks, never gonna learn it

El'endia Starman

...I literally just golfed one of my own programs in Minkolang.

Beta Decay

@Calvin'sHobbies I was meaning to ask you, where does the name Helka Homba come from?

It's awesome BTW

Alex A.

@randomra !http://<path-to-image>

That oneboxes the image

randomra

6:33 AM

lol, I have no luck with this

Alex A.

The image has to have an image extension

Beta Decay

^

Calvin's Hobbies

@BetaDecay Helka = "ice" in Tolkien's elvish (e.g. Helcaraxe if you've read the silmarillion). Homba = "fox" in the rabbit language from Watership Down. LOTR and Watership Down are two of my favorite books and arctic foxes are some of my favorite animals.

Alex A.

!http://i.imgur.com/VMnANYA.png

randomra

Alex A.

6:36 AM

:D

claps

Beta Decay

@Calvin'sHobbies :D

randomra

this took more time than the golfing...

Alex A.

Haha

randomra

@Sp3000 Gotcha ;) ^ 31 bytes

Sp3000

Yeah I saw :P nice

I thought about that, but it doesn't save any bytes for me

randomra

6:38 AM

how do you add the 0's, its quite long for me

Sp3000

Just check if it's less than 10, nothing special

Alex A.

Look at this large fish ladder

undergroundmonorail

i'm so close

34

randomra

but 0n is 2 bytes, so you have to branch somehow

Alex A.

Are you guys golfing on a site other than PPCG???

undergroundmonorail

6:41 AM

sir no sir

randomra

@undergroundmonorail that is very nice

Sp3000

Not really, I didn't do any branching

Alex A.

@undergroundmonorail ಠ_ಠ

Sp3000

Doesn't necessarily mean it's shorter though

randomra

I don't want to spoil the golfing fun, but I will be interested in your solution (as it's endless, I won't see on the site)

and undergroundmonorail's

undergroundmonorail

6:46 AM

i'm down to share but i want to see if i can improve it a little bit more first

i just got another 34 byte solution that's shaped different

so i can do it in one line or 2 now

Sp3000

I'm trying to get 31 by terminating with an error, but there's too much junk on the stack and I can't error out from empty stack :/

xsot

Hey Sp3000, I just worked out the 36 byte solution for missing digit with your hint. Thanks!

Sp3000

:) nice

undergroundmonorail

i have so much stuff on the stack hahaha

when my program terminates there are 91 items on the stack

xsot

That was a tricky one. I actually considered brute forcing the remaining 7 bytes that wasn't part of the boilerplate code.

randomra

6:51 AM

oh, I didn't know erroring out works there

Sp3000

Not as tricky as not-PI in Python though, I assume (unless you're doing it differently) :P

(now I have a one-liner 32 and a three-liner 32 for ><>, hmm :/)

aditsu

@MartinBüttner maybe, but it's not high priority; anyway, I got your ticket

xsot

I assume our solutions are close, given your byte count.

Sp3000

Hmm maybe... but it took me a bit of number crunching to get from 43 to 42, so I dunno

xsot

I would have compared our submissions using the statistics column but yours isn't available.

Sp3000

7:02 AM

Ah... is there a way to make that checked by default?

I keep forgetting to check it

xsot

You could write a greasemonkey snippet maybe. I check it reflexively so it isn't a problem to me.

Sp3000

Ah k. Well manually I think I have 0/26/16

xsot

Oh, hmm... we could be using different methods then.

Sp3000

Hmm

undergroundmonorail

tied for second

@Sp3000

i was trying to golf the 2 line version

but i figured out a way to save bytes in the 1 line version ;)

Sp3000

7:09 AM

My stack is a mess but I really want d-?

undergroundmonorail

i thought the best first six bytes were '.3'oo but i was mistaken

Sp3000

Oh? That's what I have atm

I tried n but I don't think I can push 314

undergroundmonorail

your stack may be a mess but my program terminates with 120 things on the stack

i'm so glad

Sp3000

@randomra Looks like we both got 30

undergroundmonorail

i'm trying to decide if creating a new stack can help me at all because it's one of the only language concepts i haven't explored yet

randomra

7:29 AM

I don't think I ever used that feature

El'endia Starman

That's pretty much why Minkolang doesn't (won't) have that feature.

Sp3000

I've only ever used it to clear the stack, but it can be useful for more complex tasks needing recursion

El'endia Starman

Say, how does one <pre> the backtick? ```? `?

undergroundmonorail

`

okay it's

backtick backslash backtick backtick

El'endia Starman

I'll see in a bit whether GitHub's markdown is okay with that.

randomra

7:32 AM

I don't think I can go under 30

undergroundmonorail

i've hit a wall at 32

randomra

you need some unorthodox stuff for 30

undergroundmonorail

@Sp3000 do you think yours is still golfable?

i mean, i've done some moderately unorthodox stuff :P

Sp3000

I don't think I can go under 30 either

Maybe if there was a better way for printing the zeroes, but I dunno

undergroundmonorail

i have a 32 byte solution that i'm stuck with, and i also have a 33 byte solution that feels like it's more golfable but i can't find a place to start tugging

if we all feel stuck, and are comfortable declaring sp3k and randomra as equals, superior over monorail

we could try to learn from one another

Sp3000

7:40 AM

Is your second char a 3?

undergroundmonorail

no

:)

Sp3000

Maybe that's where the two bytes come from

undergroundmonorail

maybe

Sp3000

(I dunno how much we're hinting/whatnot)

undergroundmonorail

if you guys are down i will dump my code into chat and we can f/oss this motherfucker

Sp3000

7:43 AM

I'd be up for that

undergroundmonorail

@randomra you in?

randomra

sure

undergroundmonorail

coolio

'ooe:n1+aa*%::a(:0=$?n~:e=?;30.3

randomra

nice, mine is also 'ooe: ... e=?;30.3

Sp3000

Oh you stuck the 3 at the end (I guess that's not where the bytes came from)

undergroundmonorail

7:45 AM

nice

Sp3000

'3no ... 40. is the same thing basically

undergroundmonorail

oh, true

Sp3000

Yeah you have a push/pop there where you print the zero

Wait...

No that's not the problem, it's the 0=

undergroundmonorail

yeah i need 0= to invert

Sp3000

0= to invert is pretty expensive, usually you can ?! it somehow

undergroundmonorail

7:49 AM

because i only hit the n with a nonzero value but 0 has to be on top of the stack where i get there

randomra

if it is for a jump, 0=? is the same as ?!

Sp3000

'ooe:n1+aa*%::a(0$?n~:e=?;30.3 <--- there we go

(alternatively 9):?!)

undergroundmonorail

ohh

i was trying to figure out a way to get a 0 onto the stack under the condition so it wouldn't have to be inverted but that way didn't occur to me

Sp3000

For reference mine was just '3noe:&9):?!n&:n:d=?;1+aa*%40. , so they're not all that different

randomra

mine was 'ooe:a(?0:?!n:n1+aa*%:e=?;30.3

El'endia Starman

7:54 AM

@undergroundmonorail Didn't work on GitHub. I just went with ``` (triple backtick).

randomra

basically I create a 2-byte jump for the 0n

undergroundmonorail

huh

Sp3000

It finishes with less on the stack but unfortunately not enough to do e-? or d-? :(

xnor

@Sp3000 ha, I finally got missing digit, thanks for the hint

I was totally not looking at that

Sp3000

:D I'm impressed by whoever got it first - if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have tried further tbh

undergroundmonorail

7:58 AM

i have this now, which is neat but 31 bytes

xnor

yeah, i just saw a column of 42's and thought, "that's that"

undergroundmonorail

'ooe::n1+aa*%::a(0$?n~:e=3$.3
;

uses the outcome of e= as the row to jump to

randomra

@Sp3000 how would that work, you always have the same number of elements on the stack

Sp3000

d-?1+, error out from empty stack

randomra

but how would you get empty stack at the end?

we don't run out of numbers, just count with one

Sp3000

8:00 AM

Yeah, well that's the problem. Basically I mean, if there was a way to print the zeroes without introducing extraneous elements, then by the end you have only one element left

But if you skip the 1 you error out by not having enough elements to do +

randomra

@undergroundmonorail neat, I never considered that

undergroundmonorail

i tried some stuff like calculating it at different places and putting it in & but it didn't work out

Sp3000

@xnor btw have you tried the second one of the new challenges?

xnor

yes, and i got into the predictable problem with the spaces

Sp3000

I get into that problem at 52 bytes, so... I'm probably doing something wrong

xnor

8:04 AM

could it be regex?

i'm bad with regex so i'm always suspicious of challenges that might use them

Sp3000

Is it expensive to import then do print-everything-after-a-space?

xnor

i don't know

it would also have to avoid printing two spaces

Sp3000

57 with regex, not bad actually

El'endia Starman

Finally! Finished the Minkolang README.

I wonder if anchors work in chat.

Guess not.

Sp3000

Sandbox

Where you can play with chat features (except flagging) and ch...

2

^^ If you want to go nuts

El'endia Starman

8:22 AM

[nod] Noted. Thanks!

xnor

8:36 AM

@Sp3000 Ok, I think I see what's going on with not PI. There's quite a bit of freedom in choosing the values, especially the top of the range. But I only got one char off. The good expressions seem to dodge the values we want. Is this what you were thinking?

xsot

I must be doing something wrong. I'm using regexes.

Sp3000

Yeah, I took one char off (43 -> 42) but I don't see how I can get two more

xnor

are there plausible forms other than a**b and a<<b?

Sp3000

@xsot For the new challenge? Same, but I seem to be one off mitchs

I can't think of any... I tried all the **s

xnor

114688 7<<14
614400 75<<13
614656 28**4
314432 68**3
614125 85**3

for _14___

none end in 4

Sp3000

8:43 AM

I used 85**3 for the upper limit, but yeah nothing good for lower

I also thought about something like x=1001 then having 114*x and 214*x but that's worse

El'endia Starman

Why don't we have a catalog/catalogue tag?

Sp3000

There was a discussion about this and how those questions are not much different from normal golfs and whether we should just have a list on meta or something

I dunno, ask Martin? :P

Hmm sometimes I feel like I overestimate the cost of import re - it's a lot of bytes, but it's pretty powerful once you've got it

New Sandboxed Posts

9:06 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

This is a raw draft about an idea for a popularity contest. Any input would be appreciated. My watch, it has two buttons I have this watch with two buttons and a display that can show six characters split into groups of two by colons like this 12:34:56 Each character is displayed by a 5x7 LC...

flawr

9:44 AM

@PhiNotPi It was quite an effort=)

New Main Posts

10:58 AM

0

Q: Need to make program which asks user to enter integer greater than 0

Whats wrong with this code then? program for user to enter integer greater than 0 number = input('Enter a number greater than 0') if number < 0 : print ('Try again') else: print ('Well done')

python

Sandbox

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