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Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
12:46 AM
@Doorknob I'm not sure about that. the scoring of fastest-algorithm is not affected by the code at all. I think algorithm-only submissions should be totally valid for that, provided they contain a rigorous proof for correctness (I didn't bother reading the deleted answer to see how rigorous it actually was). cc @Optimizer
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
1:19 AM
@Sp3000 got that GoL in there... maybe I can add Wireworld tomorrow ;)
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Hah, this popcon really has a snowball effect...
(or maybe it's just Mathematica :P)
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
it's getting really hard to come up with interesting stuff though... mostly because by now there's so much I could possibly do.
the limitation of the short code is pretty much gone.
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Somehow I think the short code limitation made things more interesting at first :P
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
definitely
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Also Humble Bundle has the Seaside expansion for the online Dominion, not sure if you're interested
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
1:25 AM
thanks, but I don't think I'm really into buying card games online
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Ahaha k :)
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
I just played the first round with my own cards though ;)
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
(I just like online because I don't need to count things myself :P)
Oh? How was it?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
nice :) ... I really like it. we just used the recommended starter set of kingdom cards and that worked out quite well.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
I don't like goku last time I tried it
against real players is fine
but the AIs cheat
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
1:27 AM
I never play against the AIs, the need to pre-power-up your cards is just silly :/
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
the AI will start out with significantly better cards than you at later levels
like, a silver + 7 bronze + duchy + estate
while, you start out with 6 bronze + 4 estates
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
More annoying when you have to nerf the province they start with...
But yeah I just play with my friend every so often. Would get real cards but we're the only two I know who are really interested...
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
there used be an awesome version before goku
totally free, fast paced
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Sp3000 I think your Collatz gif stops a bit early
 
New Sandboxed Posts
New Sandboxed Posts
1:47 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

globbyRise and Shine code-golf The challenge is to create a program which takes a date - as per ISO8601 format - and prints the sunrise on that day. The program must work for any valid date between January 1, 0000, and December 31, 9999. In-built functions are disallowed, so the sunrise must be calcul...

 
globby
globby
@MartinBüttner, would you mind adding that to the OP of the sandbox?
 
New Sandboxed Posts
New Sandboxed Posts
2:38 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

xnorImplement the Henkin quantifier code-golf logic Your goal is to implement the Henkin quantifier Q_H, a generalized quantifier on four variables x1,x2,y1,y2 and a Boolean function f. It expresses the idea that for every choice of the x's, there's a choice of the y's that satisfies f, so that ea...

 
globby
globby
Also, would anyone mind taking a look at this? meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/4646/15822 I finally got around to doing up the specs
 
xnor
xnor
it's kind-of hard to see the length and angle labels
the ideal thing would be just to label each one with the measure, possible with an arrow to avoid clutter
so there's no need to match up letters or colors
 
globby
globby
@xnor mmk
 
xnor
xnor
also, the dark purple / light purple look like light purple/ gray to me
is there any restriction on where the text can go?
(other than not touching the spikes)
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
@MartinBüttner The Fibonacci one does too - if I did all iterations the GIF would get long :P
Changed the description to say the GIF isn't the complete trace
 
globby
globby
3:01 AM
@xnor It has to be on the line between the center and the end of the spike but other than that, no
I guess I'll say that it has to be 5 units away
2-3
Also, are the specs easier to read now?
 
New Sandboxed Posts
New Sandboxed Posts
3:31 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Nathan MerrillThe Genetic Game of Life In this game, you play as cells (as in cellular automata). Your goal is to reproduce and kill off other cells on the board. At the beginning of the game, two randomly chosen configurations will be chosen, one for reproduction, one for killing. The configurations will ...

 
Doorknob
Doorknob
@MartinBüttner Ah, I keep forgetting to do that. :P Sure, go ahead.
@MartinBüttner Without the code, it's entirely untestable.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
4:30 AM
Hey does that sandbox post look sufficiently specced?
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
4:42 AM
hey, is there a Java STDIO controller written somewhere that I can use?
 
 
3 hours later…
Optimizer
Optimizer
7:36 AM
@MartinBüttner the question was code-challenge too. which means code answers only
@Sp3000 ^
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
"A code challenge is a competition for creative ways to solve a programming puzzle with an objective winning criterion not covered by other scoring tags" - tag wiki
I just thought it was something you use when it's not code-golf/popcon/etc., but I've probably got the wrong idea
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
we should really remove the "code" from it if it does not require actual code
or in other words, the question could have added just the fastest algorithm tag
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
I agree with you on that one :)
 
Lembik
Lembik
8:23 AM
@Sp3000 something like O(m^2 n) but actually worse :) My solution is not particularly clever
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
9:04 AM
@Lembik "but actually worse"?
I think what I had was basically R.T.'s solution... but that's been deleted right now...
 
overactor
overactor
Did anyone else see this suggested edit?
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Ahaha wow, I don't think they get the idea of the challenge
(although, posting it as a comment would have been fine - just might not be well received)
 
overactor
overactor
It's baffling in more than one way.
@Sp3000 It would have been a perfectly valid - if mindnumbingly boring - comment.
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
But at least it'd be more courteous than suggesting it as an edit :)
 
Lembik
Lembik
9:42 AM
@Sp3000 I mean my solution has a worse time complexity than O(nm^2)
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Ah k
 
Lembik
Lembik
@Sp3000 should I saw what it is? I worry about ruining the challenge for people
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Hmm nah I think you can keep it yourself for a bit, just in case someone's working on it
 
Lembik
Lembik
but O(nm^2) would be amazing :)
if you can get that
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Well the idea was just DP over tasks and machines
Out of curiosity though, did you intend for actual code or was an algorithm okay?
Because I'm not sure what should be done about the currently deleted answer...
 
Lembik
Lembik
9:49 AM
@Sp3000 either is perfect
@Sp3000 can you ask them why it was deleted? I haven't seen it at all
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
 
Lembik
Lembik
oh someone else deleted it!
that isn't fair
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
I think Optimizer said something about it being tagged code-challenge, when fastest-algorithm was all that was necessary
 
Lembik
Lembik
I specifically asked for an algorithm OR code
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
@Doorknob ^ ping
 
Lembik
Lembik
9:52 AM
it shouldn't have been deleted. The person could have been asked to give pseudocode or code but it should not have been deleted in my view
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
@Lembik remove the code-challenge
 
Lembik
Lembik
it's rather unlike codegolf.se to delete something without giving the opportunity to improve it as well
@Optimizer well I don't mind if they give code
@Optimizer should I delete it anyway?
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
then the competition is not on the same grounds.
code vs just plain text algorithm
 
Lembik
Lembik
@Optimizer what do you mean? I don't distinguish between code and pseudocode when describing an algorithm
I mean an algorithm description is ok as long as it is clear
and it can be clear in Java and Haskell or pseudocode
I agree R.T. should give code or pseudocode.. but he should have been asked to do so
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
I did ask
 
Lembik
Lembik
9:55 AM
how long did you give him?
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
and he could edit and ask for undeletion
 
Lembik
Lembik
people get scared off I think
once they have an answer deleted
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
well, I did not know that Doorknob will directly put a hammer
 
Lembik
Lembik
basically we can be nicer in this situation :)
ok
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
otherwise 3 people are required for deletion, not 2
 
Lembik
Lembik
9:56 AM
ah ok
I am trying to work out if the answer is right!
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
also, remove the code-challenge tag
since all you need is fastest algo
 
Lembik
Lembik
it is done
@Sp3000 do you think the answer is right?
It's not clear to me
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
a sandbox would have made these things more clear from the beginning :)
 
Lembik
Lembik
@Optimizer maybe :)
I am generally pro sandbox
one of the things that might help puzzling.se
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
something can help puzzling ? :O
 
Lembik
Lembik
10:00 AM
@Optimizer :) They have a problem with their users too
I posted a challenge and people got furiously angry because they couldn't solve it immediately
and said it should be closed as a result :)
luckily someone came along a few hours later with a good solution
so not all their users are terrible :)
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
lol
 
Lembik
Lembik
puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/7976/… but then weirdly the best answer gets nowhere near the most votes
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
VTC coz over 9000!
 
Lembik
Lembik
so I am really not sure about their users after all :)
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
I think so? It sounds like what I had in mind, which was to have an m by n grid where each row is a machine and each column is a task, cell (a, b) being the cost of finishing up to the b'th task, ending on the a'th machine. The extra factor of m comes from the fact that to calculate the cost for a cell you need to consider all cells in the previous column
Having said that, I haven't coded it to check yet
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
10:06 AM
I have flagged for undeletion of that answer
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
@Lembik Just tried it by hand I think it's not as easy as O(m^2 n)
Forgot to consider cost/time balance, i.e. you can't tell if it's good to take higher cost, lower time now or lower cost, higher time
 
Lembik
Lembik
10:27 AM
@Sp3000 thanks... I didn't think it could work. Isn't the problem np-hard?
@Sp3000 not that I have proved that so maybe ignore that comment
@Optimizer thanks
@Optimizer maybe he will be able to fix it once sp3000 tells him what is wrong with it
him/her
@MartinBüttner in the tree problem you described, can you just alternate rows?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
10:42 AM
@Lembik no 
      X
  ____|____
  |       |
  X       X
  |     __|__
  |     |||||
  X     XXXXX
__|__
|||||
XXXXX
the Xs are nodes.
 
feersum
feersum
@Lembik I read your post...the obvious approach in O(m^2 n d)
or if cost was bounded and discretized instead of time, you could swap c for d
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Optimizer a) that was just mistagged. b) I don't think "code-challenge" really implies anything at all except "I'm using my own winning criterion"
 
feersum
feersum
what is tree problem?
maybe there should be a tag for ones that involve code length as well as other things; those are common
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
10:59 AM
I don't know... "as well as other things" is pretty broad to catch everything in one tag
@Sp3000 I'll never be able to decide between learning Befunge and ><> :D
 
feersum
feersum
Is there any reason to use anything besides 1 or 2?
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
I find the Python interpreter easy to use, and mirrors are cool :P
I don't know, I tried downloading and interpreter for Befunge-98 once and never got it to work
 
feersum
feersum
With the tree problem, either way, should be simple to make a polynomial solution
can calculate the optimum subtree for each value from 1 to N
trees make everything easy
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@feersum see the tree a few messages back
@feersum yeah I was thinking a greedy solution should do it, but I'm not sure how to find the largest admissible subset of nodes efficiently
 
feersum
feersum
huh?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
11:07 AM
@Sp3000 in terms of complexity ><> seems to be somewhere in between Befunge 93 and 98, right?
 
feersum
feersum
I start by picking any old node as the root
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Yeah, like it's got a-f for 10-15 which 98 does but 93 doesn't
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@feersum and then?
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
(I should have picked a smaller input for making this GIF. Better yet, someone should have made an interpreter for my bounty D: )
 
feersum
feersum
on each subtree, find best possible solution for its root being 1...N
pick best number for root based on those
I would like to write some interpreters...but don't want to Javascript :(
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
11:10 AM
@feersum that sounds pretty exponential to me
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
There there, I feel your Javascript pain :)
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
JavaScript isn't all that bad if you use it right
 
feersum
feersum
there's no integers!
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
that's true
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Or maps ... well not maps/dicts in the way I'm used to
I can't get over the fact that I can do obj[0] and later do obj.0 or whatever it was
 
feersum
feersum
11:16 AM
huh
certains looks icky
barfulous
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
"The Map object is a simple key/value map." -> "This is an experimental technology, part of the Harmony (ECMAScript 6) proposal."
Huzzah?
 
feersum
feersum
omg so high tech
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Sp3000 no, obj.x only works if x is a valid identifier and then equivalent to obj["x"]. what's weird is that you can do things like obj[{}] which is then stored at obj["object ()"] or something like that
 
feersum
feersum
@MartinBüttner on the trees is the goal to be polynomial in N, number of nodes or both?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@feersum they are the same N
 
feersum
feersum
11:19 AM
ok
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Oh true, just tried and obj.0 didn't work
 
feersum
feersum
I thought JS was bad but little did I know how much until this conversation!
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Sp3000 I believe you can store something at obj[""]
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Seems like you can, but is that weird in some way?
(although, I'm having trouble figuring out what's supposed to be weird and what's not right now)
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
well, it's definitely inaccessible with . :D
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
11:22 AM
Oh I know something I thought was weird 
x="5"
y=4
Then x*y and x+y
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
yeah
as I said, JavaScript is fine if you know how to use it right
 
feersum
feersum
is multiplication non-commutative?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
just steer away from all thoe odd quirks
@feersum addition is, between different types
x+y would be "54" but y+x is 9
 
feersum
feersum
addition ???
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Maybe I shouldn't be writing all these stack snippets then :P
 
feersum
feersum
11:24 AM
I could see string multiplication being noncommutative kind of, but not +
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
My console seems to give "54" and "45", actually
But 20 for *
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
well operands are coerced into the left-hand type if possible
@Sp3000 huh okay
@Sp3000 ah yeah right, it's that + coerces to string because it can, but * coerces to Number because it can't coerce to string
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
Ah, no string multiplication?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
yeah, I keep forgetting these things, because I usually don't encounter them
@Sp3000 nope
 
Sp3000
Sp3000
I don't think I'll get used to this auto-convert-from-string-to-number-as-necessary feature
 
feersum
feersum
11:26 AM
I still think the tree should be polynomial time, but it's too hard to prove
because when counting from 1 to N, at a certain point there will be nothing above the current number
and then the rest of them are constant time
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum well your solution would be the winning answer!
 
feersum
feersum
It's not really insightful though
too boring to be worth writing
 
Lembik
Lembik
@MartinBüttner what's wrong with alternating rows?
@feersum :(
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Lembik have you seen the example tree?
only using 1 and 2 is not optimal
 
Lembik
Lembik
@MartinBüttner no sorry.. I only know what you said to me
@MartinBüttner that is very interesting
 
feersum
feersum
11:33 AM
by using clumps of 1s you can definitely require arbitrarily high numbers, continuing same strategy
but it will require exponentially more amounts of 1's to do so
well, maybe
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum it's possible your solution is optimal of course.. so if everyone finds it too boring there will be no answer
'@feersum but it is the same complexity I got
@MartinBüttner oh sorry I didn't see the nice picture you drew
@MartinBüttner so nodes with only one child are allowed?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
sure, any tree is
 
Lembik
Lembik
@MartinBüttner ok thanks.. that does make things more difficult. I somehow always remove nodes with only one child
I mean mentally
 
feersum
feersum
1-child nodes aren't needed to have 3s, 4s etc
 
Lembik
Lembik
oh
@feersum do you think my problem is np-hard?
 
feersum
feersum
11:46 AM
like this 
     X
   // \\\
  X   XXXX
 //\\
XXXXX
maybe if you had real numbers for the time amounts
and costs
 
Lembik
Lembik
so if you assign 1 to 1st and 3rd layer
adn 2 to the second, this is non-optimal?
in your tree example I mean
 
feersum
feersum
@Lembik yes, optimal is 14, yours is 16
 
Lembik
Lembik
ok.. that's very interesting
@feersum your comment about real numbers for the time amounts and costs is also interesting although I don't understand it yet
 
feersum
feersum
I mean times, not cost
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum right but d is a value so your and my solutions are exponential time
@feersum exponential time in the number of bits needed to represent the input
 
feersum
feersum
11:50 AM
what?
times are not integers?
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum d is the largest deadline. This means that in the input there is a number d with log d bits
@feersum if the algorithms takes d time that is exponential in the input size. In the same sense that naive trial and error factoring is exponential time
 
feersum
feersum
ok I see, you're saying d is exponential in log d
 
Lembik
Lembik
yes
so O(nm^2 d) is an exponential time solution
in the size of the input
and hence compatible with the problem being np-hard
some would call it "pseudo polynomial time"
 
feersum
feersum
Seems likely, I mean it's a sort of traveling salesman-ish thing
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum I'll add a bounty in a bit to at least get one answer :)
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
12:03 PM
@MartinBüttner I really think that the code in code-challenge refers to "hey, you have to write a code and the winning criteria is this : "
and Doorknob also thought so (AFAICS)
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Optimizer it seems pointless to add a algorithms-challenge tag for "challenges not involving code with a custom winning criterion"
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
@MartinBüttner I think for this use case, fastest-algorithm covers all
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
you could have "algorithm with least space complexity"... or a mixture of the two... or best numerical accuracy... or probably something else.
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
is PPCG really for "just" algorithm challenges ?
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
why not? designing algorithms is definitely part of programming. but there's no point discussing it with me. bring it up on meta if you disagree.
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
12:12 PM
I am not against anything
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
12:33 PM
@MartinBüttner BTW congrats on your (future) 9th gold badge ..
 
Lembik
Lembik
@Optimizer to be fair I specify that an answer entirely in code is OK
 
Doorknob
Doorknob
@Sp3000 Hang on, this is Programming Puzzles and Code Golf, correct? I haven't seen any answers that do not contain code being allowed.
3
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Optimizer I'm still pretty far away
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
@MartinBüttner its still 1st on HNQ LTIC
@Doorknob so many negatives. Hard to figure out what are you saying actually.
 
Doorknob
Doorknob
@Optimizer Heh, I'll reword that: "All the answers I've seen have contained code of some sort"
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
12:35 PM
That is what I also thought.
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Doorknob I'm not entirely sure about that. But that doesn't automatically imply we disallow algorithm-only answers.
 
Optimizer
Optimizer
is there a consensus anywhere whether non code based challenges are on-topic ?
 
Lembik
Lembik
are we talking about the answer to my question?
 
feersum
feersum
The deleted answer is a perfect example of the fact that not requiring code allows one to write something that makes no sense
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Optimizer I have just posted a meta question
 
Lembik
Lembik
12:36 PM
because if so, I think all that was needed was a commentn asking for clear pseudocode to be added, no?
@feersum didn't it just need a comment asking for some code or pseudocode?
 
feersum
feersum
pseudocode can't be tested so a non-functional answer is likely
I'm against pseudocode-only answers
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@feersum testing actual code is no proof of correctness either
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum ok so this is a good point.. we could insist on actually runnable code in all answers.. I am not sure we should but we could :)
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
if you want to be 100% sure you need a rigorous proof either way
 
Lembik
Lembik
@MartinBüttner a very good point!!
@feersum do you want a complete runnable piece of code in every answer or would code snippets ever be alllowed?
 
feersum
feersum
12:38 PM
um, what sort of code snippet are you thinking?
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum a function for example
 
feersum
feersum
I think the code should be runnable
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum but you can't just compile a function and run it
 
feersum
feersum
of course, a function is runnable, it is a standard answer form for any question
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum well you can't typically just copy it into a file and compile it
@feersum it might need some setup
on tex.se you have to give full LaTeX that you could just copy into a file without editing and it would compile
 
feersum
feersum
12:40 PM
You mean if a Java function did not have class X { } around it?
 
New Meta Posts
New Meta Posts
0
Q: Do all challenges have to be answered with code?

Martin BüttnerWe have a tag fastest-algorithm and we've had it for a while now. Submissions are scored based on the time complexity of the algorithm. This means that the actual implementation has no effect on the score whatsoever (except if, say, actual runtime is used as a tiebreaker). In particular, we had ...

discussion policy answers
 
feersum
feersum
really who cares
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum well it might not actually do anything.. for example print its output or read in input
 
feersum
feersum
Function answers are normal for code golf, etc. answers. I don't know why you would make a big deal out of that.
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum well all I am saying is that if code doesn't actually have to be runnable, that is a slightly different story
 
feersum
feersum
12:43 PM
this is a ridiculously trivial discussion
 
Lembik
Lembik
@feersum and given that we can't tell if code is correct without a separate argument, i am not sure what is wrong with pseudocode for a small subset of the questions
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Doorknob while you're here... what about changing the weekly challenge schedule?
 
Doorknob
Doorknob
@MartinBüttner Oh yeah, about that, maybe it could just be a weekly-ish challenge? Translation only took a week, and if it was biweekly we'd just have been sitting around doing nothing for the second week.
 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
@Doorknob translation could have used a few more days, imo.
and having a couple of days break between the challenges is also not a bad thing for people who want to be involved in most of them
I think a less strict deadline that we can always meet is probably better than a strict deadline that have to extend every other week.
 
Doorknob
Doorknob
Hmm, that does make sense.
0
A: Do all challenges have to be answered with code?

DoorknobYes, all answers should contain code. Without working code, there is no way to test the answer to verify that it works, to determine its score, etc. If we allow algorithm-describing answers, then we'd also have to allow, say, answers that describe how you would write the code (without actually ...

 
Martin Büttner
Martin Büttner
12:57 PM
promotion:
0
A: How do weekly topic challenges work?

Martin BüttnerProgramming Puzzles & Code Golf beta has started a topic challenge. (Weekly challenge ideas) We also started with our weekly challenges, although we decided to change the format a little. Since writing good questions/challenges on PPCG is quite hard, we're going for one high-quality challenge pe...

@Doorknob thanks. but regarding your first point, I still maintain that code is no proof of correctness either.
 
feersum
feersum
who says it is?
 
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