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12:24 AM
@MartinBüttner So many builtins!
1:12 AM
@TAbraham you rang?
@trichoplax yeah... wanted to talk about neural networks.. I wanted to write a question on neural networks.. hoping that u could help me...
@TAbraham I'm no expert on neural networks but I'm interested in learning about them to answer the genetic algorithms question so I'm happy to look things up as we go... :)
@trichoplax u read that link I gave u? the AI junkie link?
@TAbraham yes it was interesting.
@trichoplax Yeah, almost finished it.. would be cool if u use that to answer the question.. although it may be redundant to use genetic algorithims to train a neural network to use a genome in a genetic algorithim!
Anyway, here's my neural network question:
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

T AbrahamMaking a neural network Challenge As you can see from the title, you are supposed to make a neural network with the least possible characters. The images for the cat pictures are in this dataset: http://bit.ly/JgaTcL 5000 pictures will be used to train the neural network. Use ten more pictures ...

1:18 AM
@TAbraham I don't think it's redundant. The genome provides the weights for the neural network, and so the weights can evolve until they work well
@trichoplax wait.. r u talking about your implementation of the neural network to solve the genetic algorithim question? I was talking about using the genetic algorithim to trainthe neural network like in the link I sent u and using that genetic algorithim-trained neural network to learn how to use the genome in the lab rat race question to solve it... does that seem redundant?
Oh yeah, what r ur thoughts on my question in the Sandox?
@TAbraham I've had a look at the question in the sandbox previously. It's very difficult to find a good way of asking a neural networks question. You might go through several different ideas before you find one that gets a good response in the sandbox. It reflects the difficulty of defining it
@TAbraham That sentence might not mean what you intend it to. "Training" and "learning" amount to the same thing with a neural network.
If you train a neural network that means it learns something. So what you describe is the same thing twice
@trichoplax what about asking people to design a training function to train the neural network..Actually, now I think about it, I should make it a popularity contest, not code golf.. code golf makes it too hard.. don't u agree?
@trichoplax ur're right.. what i am trying to say is u are trianging a neural network with a genetic algorithim to solve a genetic algorithim question...I think that' redundant..
@TAbraham I agree that golf may not be the best approach. It depends on how you end up defining the challenge. However, I would steer away from making it a popularity contest. Try to define the challenge specifically enough that a winner can be determined objectively
@trichoplax ok.. what other types of challenges are they?
1:30 AM
@TAbraham I don't see how you could train the neural network without using the same genetic algorithm as in the question. Otherwise it would be trained for the wrong task and wouldn't work.
It would be like training it to ride a horse and then asking it to bake a cake
@TAbraham You can define it however you like. The key is to be objective, so it can easily be measured and the winner is agreed by everyone
@trichoplax oh i guess.. but all this is makes me feel my mind explode..
let's just work on the question...
good luck on writing a neural-network based answer!
So rather than use words like "best" or "cleverest", use words like "shortest", "highest" or "fastest"
@trichoplax yeah, but what are the common types of contest that might fit with this question?
@TAbraham it will make sense the more you learn about it. You can learn about genetic algorithms separately from neural networks, and you can learn about neural networks separately from genetic algorithms. That might be easier than trying to learn both at once - they work well together but are less confusing one at a time.
@trichoplax for example, a neural network that gets 70% or higher correct... and also the fastest?
1:34 AM
@TAbraham yes - that kind of combination of objectives is usually tagged code-challenge
@trichoplax I learned them one at a time.. it's just this application of genetic algorithims and neural networks that confuse me..
@trichoplax ok, editing..
If you can look into why you are confused then hopefully you can find out which one you need to learn more about. I'm guessing the confusion is due to a misconception about one or the other
@trichoplax wait, should I have some sort of scoring?
@TAbraham Do you mean for the sandbox post?
@trichoplax yes..how does it matter?
1:38 AM
@TAbraham you need a way that everyone can agree on who the winner is. A score is one way of doing that.
I don't think making it a popularity contest will change people's objection to it. Even a popularity contest needs to have criteria so people know what they are voting for.
You might benefit from asking other questions first, to see how the sandbox works and what makes a good question. Then you can come back to the neural networks question and have an easier time of designing it
Not every question I ask makes it out of the sandbox. Sometimes I post to the sandbox, then someone points out why it won't work, and I move on to think of a different question.
(in fact, hardly any of my questions have made it out of the sandbox...)
@trichoplax I can see that.. you only have one question...
The trouble with neural networks is that they are solutions rather than problems. As such they can be useful for writing an answer, but are very difficult to write a question for
@TAbraham exactly
@trichoplax so you write a question that asks for neural network questions...
@TAbraham No that's my point - it's easier to use them for an answer (which I want to do). I wouldn't try to write a question about them because I know it's hard to do (no one has been able to so far)
For example, the GA question isn't asking for neural networks, but people can use neural networks if they want to. Making a question that can't use anything else is difficult to define
If you want to write an image recognition question, you could write it without mentioning neural networks, and then there will be lots of different answers, some of which might use neural networks and others might not
@trichoplax but If I prefer to see neural network answers, what do I do?
1:50 AM
Image recognition is a very hard topic, so you might not get many answers on a question like that. You might want to try simpler challenges than recognising a cat. For example, something like this
or this
@trichoplax looked at that one..
@TAbraham then you are free to define your challenge with that in mind - no one is going to stop you, it will just be a lot harder to work out how to define it well.
@trichoplax in those questions.. there werent any neural network answers..
Actually, if u think about it, there aren't any neural network answers at all.. based on my searchs...
@TAbraham those were just examples of image processing, to show that even very simplified image processing can be challenging to write answers for
@TAbraham Have you seen any questions that you think could have neural network answers? Maybe you could try writing a neural network answer, then you'll have more insight into how to ask a question that can request such answers
@trichoplax actually, I am writing neural networks now, and it seems very easy.. I already made a neuron with a training function for it...I don't know if it works but it seems easy.. I just need to implement a network ...
1:55 AM
@TAbraham it isn't easy until you can make one that does something - then you'll know if it's working :)
@trichoplax I know, but it seems easy...
@TAbraham Lol I know. But if you showed me your work I wouldn't know if it is right or not. If you make it do something then we can both see whether it is right or not...
It's like making a cake is easy if no one is going to eat it - as long as it looks ok there's nothing to worry about
@trichoplax yeah.. I'll try to finish it and use it in a simple application and show hopefully by next week.. I want to know what u think...
Have you seen the neural networks chapter of nature of code?
It has some examples running on the page
They are very simple but you can actually watch them working (seeing things moving on the screen that are controlled by neural networks)
@trichoplax how cool.. thanks! is it in C++ ?
2:01 AM
It's in processing, but you could try out the exercises in any language that has graphical output
The concepts are not really dependent on language
@trichoplax I know the Arduino language, which is based on Processing so I will understand it..
@trichoplax yeah I agree..
That link is cool..thanks...
No problem
@trichoplax u know arduino language?
2:05 AM
No I don't
@trichoplax have u heard about Arduino?
I think whatever language you use, once you can connect the network you have made to something visual you will be able to judge what it's doing
Is arduino a system on a circuit board for robotics and things?
@trichoplax yeah.. I have one, it's cool.. if u'd like to learn electronics, it's perfect..
I have a raspberry pi
I've only used it as a computer though - not for robotics or anything
@trichoplax me too, but never used it.. have and intel gallelio as well but never used it either..
@trichoplax it's cool, yeah?
anyway, nice talkng to u.. I have to go...
2:12 AM
You too. I've finally got my first GA answer working so off to post it now...
(it's not a neural network one though - just a very simple one to start things off)
@trichoplax excited to see it.. might work on mine this weekend..ok, bye!
Bye :)
7 hours later…
9:09 AM
@Sp3000 it's nice, isn't it? ;)
1 hour later…
10:16 AM
Ahaha :P
3 hours later…
12:50 PM
@MartinBüttner you know you can skip some numbers ?
why would I want to do that?
the rule is to have only the nippet number #votes and rest all are optional
its too damn long
and even in your title you say "list is too long, some real gems are ..."
XD Martin's got too many things to choose from he doesn't need to skip (unlike me, who's contemplating deleting some)
I'll probably have to get rid of some old ones soon anyway
too much scrolling needed for other answers to be even visible
you twos' answers' are making other people have lesser votes.
1:03 PM
Wow, Optimizer is right. I was just trying to scroll past the Mathematica answer and then my finger got too tired and I gave up.
I'll remove some with the next update
1:51 PM
@Sp3000 there's your cellular automaton
where ?
dammit @MartinBüttner 52 upvotes ! as if you are not already the highest rep user on PPCG
and the rate race was also posted by you only -_-
I asked Nathan (well, and the others, but Nathan wrote most of the code), and he said he had no desire to post it.
I could have done it :P
or tri
I would have posted a bot, but was asleep
1:57 PM
@Optimizer I need a few more highly-voted answers to break that wall of tweetable maths on my profile ;)
@Optimizer he didn't want either
you're saying that like I hadn't worked on the challenge at all :P
No, but you are already 10K ahead of anyone else :|
and infinitely ahead in terms of badges
there are question badges I still don't have though :D
go die
@MartinBüttner it's -> its for #52
2:05 PM
(sorry for the nitpicking, just thought it'd make it easier to read)
44, found it
I was looking at your vote count
2:17 PM
I wonder if Piet will catch up to Mathematica. It's nice and visual.
2:32 PM
@Sp3000 yeah I thought the same
depend on what stuff nhahdth will pull out of his hat, he might have a chance too
Yeah :P
(trying to fight GIFs with GIFs)
I should produce a GIF output in CJam
How many bytes will that take? :P
I'm honestly surprised nobody has done python yet
maybe because we all know everything there is to know about python
I think nobody wants the expectation of coming up with really good Python snippets :P
2:42 PM
someone wants to
@Calvin'sHobbies Is it okay to use Python, given you used it in the question? — Nasser 2 hours ago
Although, I almost wonder whether this question would be better as a community wiki, just so people can chip in with good ideas
think of all that lost rep!
But you get to see cool things! :)
@MartinBüttner Sounds as though people might have avoided Python because it was used as an example, from that comment
This form is asking for my Time Zone and it has cities listed, none of which are in Texas...
FYI, taking a screenshot of a dropdown doesn't actually make the dropdown work
2:47 PM
@Rainbolt Sometimes they don't even have the country I live in...
I like how it goes from "America" (very general) to "Chicago" (Pretty specific)
@NathanMerrill Some Javascript prevents me from using Windows snippet while also holding the dropdown open :(
sad day :P
I guess I could print screen and then crop it but lazy
@Rainbolt Or you could not crop and post a huge image
Don't forget to close your err..
2:49 PM
yes! lets see Rainbolt's desktop
I would have to close all of my others tabs or risk breaking my Oath of Silence
other open tabs
I wish it were possible to get small, focused answers on meta. All I can seem to get is [Huge prelude] followed by [bulleted list] followed by [obfuscated conclusion] that sounds like "I agree in principle but really I disagree."
they are probably java programmers
3:06 PM
I wish it were possible to get small, focused questions on meta. All I seem to get is [Broad Opinion] followed by [sloppy justification] that sounds like "I don't like what just happened on main."
meta ? more like momma !
I like the long list of stars
LOL. reminds me of this song - "Even when the stars are falling down.. daawwuuuunnn"
3:11 PM
"I move the stars for no one"
lol, because of this chat I now have the Outspoken badge
And they said overuse would devalue the stars.
I always thought they were balls of gas burning billions of miles away.
"balls of gas"
3:16 PM
@Geobits , with you, everything's gas.
oh god what happened
Who needs the giant chat box in the center when you can just keep up with the chat in the sidebar (albeit potentially out of order)
lets stop the starring spree okay ?
3:31 PM
@Geobits Ouch!
@Rainbolt arguably a better order :)
today is the most continuous starry night of all :D
@Optimizer no, that was new year's eve
not in a row .. is it ?
not here, but in the tavern
3:44 PM
Not the "most" continuous, but I believe Uranus' poles get something like 42 years of starry night at a time :P
That's why they call Uranus "where the sun don't shine".... right?
When I read continuous, my brain immediately thought "with respect to what measure?"
Damnit university.
@Geobits There's almost a joke out of this :D
something is definitely out of it, that it is an almost joke :D
Nothing like a good ol' fashioned anus pun.
3:47 PM
I sent a mail to OSI asking if I could use their logo to promote my Open Source Q&A proposal. Their general manager replied saying they'd like to have an official OSI Open Source Q&A site on Stack Exchange and asked if I'd like to help make that happen O.o
So you said yes, right?
essentially, yes.
will this be a dupe of his prev. ?
@Optimizer no I don't think so. it doesn't involve finding links in a site at all
oh didn't realize in the first go
3:57 PM
still not a particularly interesting popcon though
that guy is hooked up to stroupstrup
let it go man
@JanDvorak If you try writing code, you'll notice it's totally different. It's the difference between writing 2+2 and a calculator. — Athari 1 min ago
wooo, there are lots of posts with 4 close votes on the open source proposal
I don't like any of them, so they are fun to close
I'm torn between starting/reviving a MTG proposal and supporting BCG
@NathanMerrill Like a mod.
If MTG gets split, BCG dies pretty much
4:08 PM
@NathanMerrill thanks for getting involved on the Open Source proposal by the way, defining the scope will be tricky.
really? It seems pretty clear
maybe its just my opinion
but it either involves "What license should I use for X", or "Can I do this with X license"
and the intricacies of licensing
@MartinBüttner it does involve fetching links from a webpage
Is it purely license aimed? Or can it be used for questions about running open source projects and encouraging/organising contributions?
"running open source projects" seems to fall under "Can I do this with X license", but I don't like the "how do I get more people on my project" questions
I do think the "How can I monetize with open source" is a great question though
4:19 PM
I might have to have a look... sounds interesting
Just going off the title, that sounds like VTC -> Too Broad. (how can I monetize...)
yeah, I like the concept
that specific question I think was already closed
halfway towards electorate
4:47 PM
@Sp3000 I've been playing around with CellularAutomaton a bit. Wire in 81 characters: CellularAutomaton[{{0,2,3,If[0<Count[#,1,2]<3,1,3]}[[#[[2,2]]+1]]&,{},{1,1}},i,‌​n]
In principle you could specify it as a single number, but I think it would have a "few" more digits than this code :D
I was able to encode the game of life in a single number though: CellularAutomaton[{224,{2,{{2,2,2},{2,1,2},{2,2,2}}},{1,1}},i,n] (the other parameters define the neighbourhood)
1 hour later…
6:01 PM
so CH is getting another two gold badges
making him the winner again
the winner?
gold badges
oh, right
yeah, his questions tend to produce more badges than all the answers I could possibly post :D
although I think if he does get two gold, chances are I'll get one as well.
#!@ doesnt work ?
mathematica .
@MartinBüttner it doesnt work
oh wait directly &
6:17 PM
I'm not crazy, right?
what ?
Comments on double factorial.
@MartinBüttner dude leave something for others
I think my CJam is beatable
6:19 PM
What's actually the current threshold for a standard loophole to be considered valid?
stay happy with goody good mathematica 4 byte solution
upvotes >= downvotes*2, I believe.
Maybe at least disallow inbuilts ? :P — Optimizer 19 secs ago
@Optimizer What is your JS doing that it needs FF? I'm not installing it to test, just curious why it doesn't in Chrome?
try it in chrome or IE
wont run
6:28 PM
@Optimizer arguably, STDOUT for JS is console.log and not alert
@MartinBüttner Err... I didn't post a JS answer to that question, Optimizer did.
Ah, didn't know Chrome didn't play with it at all.
Either way, I think both current answers support my point that it's only trivially different than a straight factorial... :(
@MartinBüttner where is that being argued ?
@ProgramFOX sorry, I sometimes don't look at who I'm actually tagging :D
6:30 PM
the console.log in JS is for developers and not users. so its not a "standard" output
what do you use in node? :P
is my answer in node ?
alert does not even exist in node. so these two things cannot be compared
I don't know, it doesn't say your answer is in Browser-JS :P
ES6 is not supported by node . one can say you can enable harmony mode, but that has too less of ES6 to be called ES6
honestly, I really don't care... but I consider prompts different from stdout... but I think rules that require printing for such a simple challenge are ill-designed anyway.
6:34 PM
and I specially wrote "run in latest firefox"
moreover, your Mathematica answer just needed a Print statement . stop fighting back with me :P
oh, he disallowed inbuilts
@Optimizer hours ago
hours :D
@Optimizer I don't know... the result of the Print goes to the exact same console as the evaluated expression. and we don't require p or o for CJam either.
that is the only place for output in mathematica ?
I thought this is just REPL and there would be a standard way of running a code from a file
whose STDOUT would be different
no, it's the same thing, as far as I'm aware, but I never run mathematica code from the command line because it's such a hassle
6:40 PM
another 10 byte l~),(((%:*
link to the meta post saying that REPL cannot be STDOUT ?
that feeling when people upvote CJam but not JS o.O
interesting, I found the opposite
A: Is an answer valid if it works only at the interactive prompt?

Kendall FreyIn my opinion, such answers should be valid unless the OP states otherwise. These answers often reflect a different slant to the problem, and we all like variety, don't we? I don't think we should remove this dimension of creativity by default, but if the OP doesn't want such answers, they can o...

most challenge authors who want a printed result don't seem to accept REPL answer in my experience
I've got something to point them to now
oh, my JS one becomes shorter now
I'll just ask the OP to clarify
well he complained about my REPL use
6:49 PM
urs uses inbuilts, so REPL wont help, would it ?/
the CJam submisssions don't work for 0 input
why would you solve it that way :|
why not?
how did you solve it?
12 :D
might as delete mine now. they effectively differ in 2 characters now.
7:01 PM
leave it there
noone is gonna VTC dupe
nah, what's the point
well, to you, nothing, to me, rep. :P
(you have too much rep anyways)
you don't get rep from me leaving the answer there
(and neither do I right now)
the question is closed now
you can reopen it if you want
7:04 PM
I closed it
oh you closed it
its basically same as normal factorial.
with n-2 instead of --n
you're beaten
@Optimizer in Mathematica, there's actually a neat different approach that needs only one base case
(if using built-in normal factorial is allowed)
because it's actually n!/f[n-1]
@MartinBüttner Pyth had 11 bytes for more than an hour now
but it wasn't valid until now
(also it was posted 16 minutes ago)
7:10 PM
like the inbuilt restriction was added an hour ago !
8:05 PM
am I right in the assumption that this site has very few problems that are difficult to initially solve?
@NathanMerrill I wouldn't say "very few". but they're not the majority I think
I think "few" pretty much covers it. The majority aren't hard to solve period, just hard to golf/optimize/whatever.
or take a while
There are some that would be considered hard by most, though.
8:20 PM
@PeterTaylor Algorithms question: you're given a tree with N vertices. You're to given each vertex an integer cost in [1,N], such that no two vertices connected by an edge have the same cost. Minimise the overall cost.
It seems there should be a polynomial solution.
Is there such a problem as "find the maximum non-redundant vertex cover?" It might be possible to base a greedy approach on that.
1 hour later…
9:35 PM
@MartinBüttner Game of Life in 64 bytes? So close!
hi all
hi @Sp3000 :)
@Sp3000 just got 64
I'm working on a couple of other snippets as well
@MartinBüttner is that algo question still something you are interested in?
right now, he is interested in getting his answer to 100 upvotes!
@Lembik I don't really have a decent idea for it, sorry
9:42 PM
@MartinBüttner sorry I meant your question, not mine
Algorithms question: you're given a tree with N vertices...
wait, what question?
oh okay
from your formulation it seems there are N vertices and N numbers.. why can't you just number them 1 to N?
@Lembik Hi Lembik "Scheduling" Lembik :) Looks hard
oh.. minimise :)
I missed the next line
@Sp3000 my question looks hard?
@Sp3000 hmm.. should I remove it and post it to SO? I would hate to do that :(
Ahaha no that's not the problem, I'm just not sure how easy it is to come up with an efficient algorithm
9:45 PM
@Sp3000 well any algorithm at all would be good for now :)
current best score.. infinite!
@Sp3000 I can get 10^9 I think
What happens if someone comes up with something with a log? Which base do they take?
@Sp3000 I thought about that... 2 :)
I will add that as soon as someone does
Ah k
no, you should add it before
@Sp3000 unless you think that there is a line of people ready to post answers but holding back as they don't know which base will be used :)
@feersum done!
9:51 PM
Is there ever a case where you need to switch halfway through a job?
@Sp3000 it's not allowed!
That would have made things hard :P
@Sp3000 yes... like typing your name is hard for me it seems :)
I like it when someone with a good math.se score comments :)
@Sp3000 that includes you :)
even when they then delete their comments....
@MartinBüttner your algorithms puzzle is nice
@MartinBüttner you should post it as a question :)
it's not mine
@MartinBüttner whose is it?
10:01 PM
it's the last question from the first round of the Facebook Hacker Cup
@MartinBüttner oh!
I assume the answer is dynamic programming :)
as it always is with tricky competition questions
Hmm DP, DP...
Scheduling sounds like it could be that
@Lembik Is the algorithm you have something like O(m^2 n)?
10:59 PM
I always feel really awkward calling my team leader over to say "Hey, am I going down the right path?" followed by a short tour of code that I spent the last 7 hours working on.
this is not an answer. I wonder who up voted it :|
@Optimizer You see that "flag" menu right under there? I hear the "not an answer" option is really nice. :)
I guess too late
@Doorknob plus, that guy is not new to PPCG
that second is soo weird. look at his rep
@Optimizer Still NAA.
yeah, but that intro bit of that comment of yours is not relevant "welcome to ... "
plus, I always feel that most options under flag should actually be under delete / close
11:25 PM
@Optimizer I thought the question was theoretical, since the OP contains "The objective is to give an algorithm (or some code)"...
Or is that not allowed?
11:53 PM
It's easy to be hand-wavey in an algorithm description..I agree code should be required
@Lembik Still here? (ping)

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