ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

17:00

@snailboat That's quite possible! The linguist mentioned on the Glottopedia page is a Russian linguist who is an expert on Germanic languages!

Anonymous

CGEL uses the term adversative coordination

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

I have to admit though, I don't recall seeing the term "copulative coordination" before

Anonymous

I'm sure someone uses it

MARamezani

I have to go and study some coordination chemistry.

Damkerng T.

17:05

Have fun coordinating!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. The other guy says hey!

Damkerng T.

o_O

MARamezani

Why o_O?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There's really two separate terminological issues: one, labeling a semantic property that but has "adversative"; and two, using the term "coordination" rather than "conjunction"

MARamezani

And conjugation.

Anonymous

17:08

Some grammars use "conjunction" in place of "coordination"

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani I can't relate Hey! to the clip!

@snailboat nods

Anonymous

CGEL argues at the beginning of its chapter on coordination that conjunction is an unfortunate term

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. A guy says hey and then the other one says the sentence about ships.

Anonymous

Because it conflicts with how the term is used in logic

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani Ahh

Anonymous

17:09

And so they use the term "coordinate" for things that are "coordinated"

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Well by puzzle I thought you meant what the other guy said.

Anonymous

(Better than coordinand, I guess :-)

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani I didn't know that there was another guy. I thought there was only him in the clip.

Anonymous

Actually, wait. Is it? Whattya think? Coordinate or coordinand?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Coordinand!

MARamezani

17:10

@DamkerngT. What can I say? I've got elephant ears here.

Damkerng T.

That sounds a bit Spanish!

Anonymous

Well, that makes sense, since Spanish is a Romance language

Anonymous

Though I think in Spanish it might be coordenando...?

Anonymous

I bet Nico would know :-)

Damkerng T.

lol

Anonymous

17:13

@Freddy Hey, what's a boat language? Is it what I speak?

Anonymous

I mean, I think I speak boat.

MARamezani

Nah!

@Snailboat There are two types of cyclohexane: Boat and chair form.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The reason I think coordinand might be a good term is because its meaning is obvious by analogy to more commonly known terms like operand and multiplicand

Anonymous

@MARamezani This I did not know

Damkerng T.

What does the boat language sound like?

MARamezani

17:15

My profile pic is the chair form. It's stable.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, I see!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Like this: rcgbeuxb3ge2xbzueqhrcbyx3eudhjqbxnuezjqbdxyuhezjqbwnyxuhz3brendyuqzhbnr3ycxewbhq‌zyu3hrbcxewynquhbcxyrgwekhvqdbxzy3uhekwbqxzy3jhrkbe2xqyukhgcu3ybxeqhjfr3bfcwxgj3b‌rywuejxgby3grjhwebfcxyzj3rhgwebquchxg3rbuyewgjd3rywehbyxu3e...

Anonymous

A coordinand is an argument of a coordinator, just as an operand is an argument of an operator.

Damkerng T.

Makes sense.

Anonymous

Some grammars use coordinand, but CGEL goes with coordinate instead.

Anonymous

17:17

Which is the better term?

MARamezani

0

Q: What to do about downvotes not based on the merits of an answer?

A sensitive user has inferred some off-topic political subtext, to what I am confident is a helpful, straightforward answer for English learners. This particular question is currently being promoted on other sites. It's the first thing a lot of new users will see, meaning that it currently repres...

discussion

Guys help me!

I wanna throw a comment!

Damkerng T.

linker :P

They're definitely linkers in my ESL grammar. :D

Anonymous

@MARamezani I imagine the downvote was based on the merits of the answer

MARamezani

@snailboat I thought so.

Damkerng T.

Oh! Hmm... reading...

Anonymous

17:20

They're conflating informality with incorrectness.

MARamezani

@snailboat Yep.

Anonymous

If I say "Hey, what's up?" I'm speaking informally, not incorrectly

Anonymous

If I say "What up is?" I'm now speaking informal English ungrammatically

Anonymous

Two different orthogonal axes.

MARamezani

@snailboat No, you're speaking incorrectly!

Anonymous

17:22

Oh! My mistake!

MARamezani

Because I (rather he) said so.

Anonymous

Oops, I mean "My bad!"

MARamezani

IT'S HIS BEST ANSWER!

> This particular question is currently being promoted on other sites. It's the first thing a lot of new users will see, meaning that it currently represents the first impression of quality that people will expect from this site.

Anonymous

Honestly, "poor English for poor people" does deserve to be downvoted

Anonymous

But I'd rather downvote based on the content of the answer as a whole

Anonymous

17:24

(I haven't downvoted since it's already at -1, and I don't need to pile on...)

Anonymous

(So I'm only speaking hypothetically...)

Anonymous

　↖ The way I just used punctuation here would make some people unhappy, I bet. :-)

Damkerng T.

Also, a similar sentence (though not exactly the same as the sentence in the question), We’re out of toilet paper, sounds perfectly fine to me.

MARamezani

@snailboat I'm unhappy.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A-ha, that is slightly different due to the of

MARamezani

17:25

@DamkerngT. You're outta toilet paper and it's fine?!

Anonymous

We're out [noun phrase] is definitely an established informal phrase, though

MARamezani

Could you bring evidence of why the answer is helpful? To the people in chat at least, it doesn't seem so, and that's in the first reading. — MARamezani 1 min ago

The first shot.

I always love fighting with ~~unreasonable~~ people.

Anonymous

@MARamezani Don't view it as fighting

MARamezani

@snailboat Yeah sorry.

Wrestling.

Anonymous

You like being an adversative coordinand, don't you? :-)

Damkerng T.

17:28

Maybe "fight" means a different thing in languages I don't know.

MARamezani

COORDINATE!

I mean, CONJUGATE!

Damkerng T.

Is it a fight of a coordinative kind?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Nah. It does mean the same thing to me.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

MARamezani

@freddy can you translate this to me?

Freddy

17:31

What to translate?

MARamezani

D'oh. I meant for me?

in The Periodic Table, 3 hours ago, by ADG

@MARamezani chal na paka mat jhandu

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, たたかう comes from たたく 'hit' (as with a stick) plus the archaic auxiliary ふ 'do repeatedly / keep doing'

Anonymous

So 'fight' literally comes from the meaning 'hit repeatedly (as with a stick)'

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

I guess in most any language there's something like fight that can be used figuratively :-)

Damkerng T.

17:32

That sounds like a one-sided act!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But it selects for a comitative argument

Anonymous

だれかと　たたかう 'fight with someone'

Freddy

Chal na means "let's go" paka means "sure" jhandu I don't k know that translation. It seems like some regional language similar to Hindi but not Hindi

Anonymous

@MARamezani To be honest, I joined The Periodic Table after your comment to see if it needed any moderation, but it looked like things were okay at the moment :-)

MARamezani

@snailboat I didn't take the message seriously, but it's apparently a big insult.

Freddy

17:35

@snailboat I flagged someone over there for kind of fun, did you got any flag notification for that?

Anonymous

@Freddy Regular flag notifications disappear pretty quickly since they're shown to all users with 10k+ rep on chat, along with moderators

Anonymous

Moderator flag notifications stick around longer until a moderator actually looks at and handles them

Anonymous

I did see ManishEarth in there, so I figured he was on top of things

MARamezani

Oh, I was right: An insult: google.com/…

Ehhh nevermind.

I've been taught to be even more mature than I am now.

Oooh guys I didn't know how I landed down to this:

chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497

Freddy

Need to go. Bye everyone. Good night

Damkerng T.

17:41

G'night!

MARamezani

Don't let the bed bugs byte!

Anonymous

@MARamezani That article and his other publications on the topic have been controversial on SE. We've got some defenders of S&W here

Anonymous

(Not me, but some folks 'round these parts.)

MARamezani

@snailboat S&W reminds me of Volkswagen.

Anonymous

'Cause they've both got a 'W'?

Anonymous

17:42

S&W, VW

MARamezani

Dunno. You ask me why I feel something?

Anonymous

It's true, I should have taken the introspection illusion into account :-)

MARamezani

You have to feel like knowing how it feels like to be feeling like me feeling like making S&W feel like Volkswagon.

Anonymous

Well, I'm glad you're sharing your feelings.

MARamezani

Wait!

This isn't an asy...

I digress.

Anonymous

17:44

Welcome to Arkham!

Damkerng T.

I think W is dominant in the logo of Volkswagen.

MARamezani

I think this is a little bit different from a chair cyclohexane.

Ya know, JUST a bit.

Damkerng T.

Oh, the Joker!

In an alternate universe (Flash's), the Joker is Bruce's mom.

MARamezani

Mom?

I meant, mom?

Ah. Nevermind.

Damkerng T.

Yes. Seeing Bruce died, she's gone insane.

MARamezani

17:50

*Seeing Bruce die

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes.

MARamezani

Or dead. But not died.

This is known as the Snailboat-Markonikov effect

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What?? :-)

Anonymous

Do you read comic books?

Anonymous

I haven't really read any of those comic books

MARamezani

17:52

@snailboat He has them in his memory.

Damkerng T.

It's a Flash something animation.

Anonymous

I saw the Batman movies

Anonymous

Or at least, a few of them

MARamezani

Hullo @iyrin! Welcome to the chatroom thingy.

iyrin

hi :)

The chat feature is awesome.

MARamezani

17:53

Yeah...Allows one to say as much gibberish as they want.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It's this one: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League:_The_Flashpoint_Paradox

iyrin

It could be really useful for English learners.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I've never heard of that one!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Sheesh.

Too comicky.

Who the heck is waterman?

Anonymous

I liked a comic book called Bone

Damkerng T.

17:55

BTW @MAR I think you made an "incorrection".

MARamezani

It was about a dog?

@DamkerngT. What did I incorrect?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I remember Bone!

Anonymous

(Stupid, stupid rat creatures!)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I'd've remembered everything too if I had a 45263517543726 petabyte memory.

iyrin

So, what up is guys?

:D

Damkerng T.

17:57

@MARamezani Search for seeing that * died and see the results for yourself. ;-)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Do you think I'm that unlazy?

Hmm...

Damkerng T.

@iyrin I guess we're chatting about Batman!

MARamezani

Inlazy?

Mislazy?

iyrin

Do you watch Gotham?

MARamezani

Illlazy?

Anonymous

17:58

My friends and I call that show Penguin

MARamezani

Illazy?

Damkerng T.

I wish I could!

MARamezani

I give up.

Anonymous

@MARamezani I'm not sure that sort of assimilation is productive in English

MARamezani

@snailboat Hmm...Gotham...Penguin... I see the resemblance.

Anonymous

17:59

in- isn't especially productive in the first place relative to un-

MARamezani

@snailboat It isn't supposed to be.

Damkerng T.

<-- is looking forward to seeing Batman vs. Superman here

iyrin

malaise

MARamezani

@iyrin BTW I (i.e. we) think the reason your answer was -1'd was your suggestion to learners.

Anonymous

You mostly see the assimilated il- form in loanwords that were already assimilated in the source language, like illuminate

MARamezani

18:00

@snailboat Ahan.

iyrin

You mean the "You've lost a dollar" suggestion?

MARamezani

Yeppie.

iyrin

Oh. How would you say it?

MARamezani

Learners shouldn't be prohibited from learning slang.

Unless of course, it confuses them.

Anonymous

What's your native dialect?

iyrin

18:02

I agree with that. When I used to tutor English, I did teach them slang as well.

I just always felt it was important to make a clear distinction for them.

MARamezani

In parenthesis, me and @Dam aren't native speakers. We're just learners.

But some wacky learners.

iyrin

Born and raised in California so I speak hella English :)

MARamezani

Imaginative learners.

Anonymous

Hella is already a dead word to me :-)

MARamezani

Do|t learners.

iyrin

18:03

haha

I think it's been pretty well dead since the 90's

Damkerng T.

I might use "You lost a dollar" or maybe even "You're down a dollar", so I think "You're out a dollar" is quite okay.

MARamezani

That.

Anonymous

I heard people say it a fair bit in the early 2000s

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. BTW "seeing you died" is correct?

iyrin

I would probably say "You're down a dollar." Saying "You're out a dollar" sounds foreign to me.

Anonymous

18:04

I wonder which dialects it's part of, then

Anonymous

It's certainly something people say (though probably not very often about a single dollar, since the implication is adversative)

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani Yes, in the sense of "Seeing (that) he died".

iyrin

I don't think it is part of a dialect, particularly. No more than people saying "irregardless" is part of a dialect.

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani "You" would be odd, though.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Whatever!

Anonymous

18:06

Well, your judgment and mine differ rather strikingly

MARamezani

But still, I'd expect a dead or die after that.

Anonymous

It's clearly something English speakers say since it's part of my dialect

Anonymous

So if it's not dialectal, then you're simply wrong

Anonymous

If it is dialectal, then that explains why you're unfamiliar with it

MARamezani

Let the fight begin.

Damkerng T.

18:06

@MARamezani I didn't say that you're wrong though, and it's safer.

Anonymous

So I wonder if it is a matter of dialect

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Hmm...

iyrin

Dialects and slang are two different things. That's not an opinion.

Anonymous

(My default assumption would be that it is)

Anonymous

@iyrin I agree, they are two different things.

Damkerng T.

18:07

@MARamezani Don't turn it into a fight.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. So it's a semi-incorrection or semi-correction or recommendation?

iyrin

Nobody is fighting. We're all adults here. Possibly.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I don't think they're fighting.

Damkerng T.

Agree.

iyrin

One of us might be a dog, but how would we know?

Anonymous

18:07

We're not all adults.

MARamezani

:}

iyrin

I tutored this Taiwanese girl who just loved learning slang.

MARamezani

@iyrin I'm a chair cyclohexane. Nice to meetcha.

Anonymous

Just so you know, you should avoid saying things in here that you wouldn't say in front of a 13-year-old

MARamezani

@iyrin How old?

iyrin

18:08

Making me google stuff...

hahaha

MARamezani

Teens think they'll look cool if they use slang.

@snailboat HEY!

iyrin

The girl was a college student in her early twenties.

MARamezani

@iyrin That's too old to love slang.

Anonymous

@MARamezani I'm not saying you're thirteen, but we do have users that young. (Below 13, folks aren't allowed on SE)

iyrin

First thing I wanted to learn in Costa Rica was all of the swear words and such.

MARamezani

18:10

@iyrin That's the beauty of the language.

iyrin

The younger the better if they are trying to learn a language.

MARamezani

Exxxactly.

Anonymous

I think we could characterize be out [noun phrase] as colloquial

Anonymous

> "When does your option expire?" "Actually, it expired the end of July, but we renewed it for another six months till her estate could be settled and I could tender my offer to you through Mr. Howe here." "So if I said no, you'd be out a lot of money?"

Anonymous

> I'm this far away from the abyss. I'm going to start screaming soon, and then you're going to have to kill me, and then you'll have nothing. Nothing. You'll be out a year of room and board and the cost of cremation, and nobody's going to trade you anything for me.

MARamezani

18:15

No. No stars. You can't make me....

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Anonymous

> "But what if they send me back?" "Send you back? From Mars? After getting you here? Who can afford to send anyone back? Don't talk crazy at me!" He laughed, saying that. Even so I detected a grain of truth in what he said. If I messed this up, I might be out a job―but not a planet.

Anonymous

> If you're caught drinking and driving in New York, you're out a set of wheels.

Anonymous

> Even if you think Bill Gates has enough money and doesn't need more of yours, heed a warning from Detective Bembry about buying pirated software: "You aren't just hurting Microsoft. I know people don't worry if Microsoft is out a few dollars. But I hope you don't want to support organized crime."

Anonymous

There's no shortage of examples in published, edited writing. These are all from COCA

iyrin

It does sound like something you would read a cliche detective character in a comic book saying. That last example made me laugh :)

Anonymous

18:19

Of course, it'll appear more often in fiction since it's more characteristic of informal speech than formal writing

Anonymous

> As it was a Sunday, I never bothered to take a look at the meter, let alone fish for a quarter. When I returned, much to my chagrin, my windshield sported a $30 ticket for a meter violation. Sure enough, on the meter was a warning that meters must be paid every day, so I guess I'm out $30.

iyrin

It definitely conjures up images of some old-timey gangsters playing poker in a back room.

Anonymous

> I convinced myself that Dave was a con man planning an elaborate sting to separate me from my down payment. The year we had spent together was the setup for the graft. Now I was going to be out $25,000 and a boyfriend. It was a hop, skip and a jump from there to standing at the side of the road, homeless and utterly alone, the victim of aiming too high.

MARamezani

@iyrin Meet @snailboat.

iyrin

haha

Hi

Anonymous

18:22

> There are a lot of divorce lawyers that have watched this very closely, and they say, "Jack Welch, when all is said and done, he's going to be out $300 million or $400 million, at a minimum."

MARamezani

Someone that won't give up until she makes you say sorry.

iyrin

What for?

Did I offend you snailboat?

Anonymous

@MARamezani Please don't characterize me that way

Anonymous

I'm not trying to make someone say sorry

iyrin

:)

Anonymous

18:23

I'm just trying to provide examples from a corpus

MARamezani

@snailboat Okay.

iyrin

They're good examples

MARamezani

It was just a joke.

Dunno. For being not so passionate about "out" phrase...

iyrin

@MARamezani apology for characterizing snailboat

Just kidding

MARamezani

@iyrin She teaches natives.

How awesome is that?

Anonymous

18:25

> The program keeps track of the bikes via tiny RFID chips, the same tamper-proof radio-frequency devices used to monitor everything from clothing inventories to office ID badges. Riders use a swipe card to unlock the bikes, and if they fail to return them -- or if the bikes are stolen on their watch -- they'll be out $200.

iyrin

You know who tends to speak English well? Swedes and Norwegians

Anonymous

This last example is from TIME

Anonymous

It does seem to appear in writing that has a somewhat informal style to it

iyrin

They always seem to have a better grasp of the language than I do. Also, Swedish is fairly easy to pick up if you speak English already.

Not that I remember anything I had learned at this point.

Anonymous

Okay, I bookmarked the examples: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/22937/conversation/…

Anonymous

18:27

I'll go link to that on the main site

iyrin

BRB contacting all of their editors

Not really

Anonymous

I think it would be better characterized as informal or colloquial rather than "incorrect". (I think it's important not to conflate correctness with formality.) I found some examples in COCA and quoted them in chat, and there were plenty more I didn't quote, so we can see that English speakers certainly do use this phrase, even in published writing. — snailboat 10 secs ago

MARamezani

@snailboat BTW sorry if I characterized ye. It was supposed to be a joke...

Damkerng T.

Ah, a new bounty!

Anonymous

@MARamezani I'm not angry, you don't need to apologize :-)

iyrin

18:32

Apologize for your apology

:D

MARamezani

Sorry that I was sorrowfully saying sorry sorryingly.

iyrin

heh I have to go get some work done. See ya!

Anonymous

Later!

Damkerng T.

@iyrin See ya! Drop by again soon!

MARamezani

@iyrin Lateh.

Anonymous

18:35

@MARamezani But I had to respond 'cause that sort of comment can incite a fight, and I wanted to stop that before it began, if I could

Anonymous

Remember, people don't always take well to humor (or even recognize it as humor) if they feel they're on opposing sides of something

MARamezani

I don't think it would.

Anonymous

Well, hopefully not :-) But just in case.

MARamezani

@iyrin came in with a more friendly voice than I expected.

So I took things a little bit further...

Anonymous

Sure, I get it :-)

Anonymous

18:40

You're a friendly sort. I mean, a friendly chair cyclohexane.

MARamezani

A friendly sorted out do|tic chair cyclohexane.

Damkerng T.

0

Q: would anyone tell me what the term analogy here means?

I am wondering what is the concept of the bold part. A vivd example or explanation might be useful to get it. Evaluating Analogies Because analogical reasoning is so common and has the potential to be both persuasive and faulty, you will find it very useful to recognize such reasoning and know h...

syntax mean

I wonder how teachers teach reading...

I think I've already forgotten how I learned to read anything.

I mean in our first language.

I also wonder how much we can adapt our reading skills in L1 for reading tasks in L2.

Anonymous

There's a really pretty moth on the outside of a window here, but I can't get a good picture of it. I can't get it right in terms of focus or light―it's overwhelmed by the light outdoors and I can't get my phone to focus on it

Anonymous

But it looks really pretty to the naked eye

Damkerng T.

@snailboat You might get a better angle outside!

Anonymous

18:53

@DamkerngT. Depends on the student and language, but phonics are the most effective method in English

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Aww

Anonymous

Teachers also use whole language, though that's been a bit of a disaster

Anonymous

Most students can learn to read without major problems without much assistance

Anonymous

But there's a not insignificant portion where the method you use matters

Anonymous

And phonics are the best way to keep them from being left behind, at the moment

Damkerng T.

18:54

Ahh

Anonymous

I could already read fine before I started preschool, so I mostly ignored whatever they tried to teach me

Damkerng T.

I remember that I used to make out the meaning of a sentence by guessing and relating only the parts I know together, and it usually worked.

nods

I guess some people can't do that automatically.

So, there must be a way or ways to help them or teach them somehow somewhere.

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