ELL's Cabin

StoneyB

00:15

@DamkerngT. Hi, DT. Just got back from a long trip and I'm sorta roaming around seeing what's going on.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Welcome back to ELL, then. I'm glad to hear that you're back from the trip safely. :-)

StoneyB

Thanks. Me, too; I'm really too old to drive for 9 hours straight these days.

Damkerng T.

Wow, that's quite a trip!

StoneyB

But I was visiting my wife, which kinda overrides practical considerations.

A lot of people feel that way, but it's really The American Way of Life. We're a lot more thinly distributed than most older countries, so a trip that in, say, Europe, might take you across two or three countries is pretty much in the same region. A five- or six-hundred-mile trip is quite ordinary.

When I was in grad school I thought nothing of driving 1200 miles each way over a weekend to visit my fiance.

Damkerng T.

Wow!

Most of my vacation trips are only within 200 km (about 125 miles) from Bangkok. :-)

I think a 1200-mile trip from here would be across the border already! :-)

Maybe I could visit my distant relatives in China with a 1200-mile trip. :D

Oh, Google says it's only 1276 km from here!

I wanted to ask about your wife, but I worried that it'd be too personal.

StoneyB

00:30

She's in grad school and from all I can tell setting the place on fire. We took one of her professors and his wife out to dinner--charming people approximately half her age!

Damkerng T.

Hehe! It sounds like you had a good time this trip. :-)

StoneyB

Yes, indeed! :)

Damkerng T.

I'm happy for you!

StoneyB

I spent all the time she was "at work" writing a D&D adventure for a sort of honorary grandnephew who wants all his mom's friends to teach him the game. Since Anne just spent a semester studying the Old Norse sagas I've set it in the Viking Age; it was very useful having somebody knowledgeable to consult.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I remember you mentioned D&D once. I learned that it's a board game from you. :D

StoneyB

00:36

I think I'm going to make all the spellcasters compose spells following the rules of ON poetry. (But in English!)

Damkerng T.

Oh! Cool!

StoneyB

So now I have to learn the rules of ON poetry.

Actually, my gang are mostly actors, so the tabletop part of our games is usually pretty trivial -- we're heavily into the roleplaying.

Damkerng T.

I wonder if Old Norse poems will sound like the Mead Hall song in Beowulf the animation I've watched. :-)

@StoneyB Sounds like fun!

StoneyB

It's similar to OE -- heavily alliterative. That's pretty much the case for most of the oldest poetry in all the Germanic languages.

Damkerng T.

nods

I like this short song in Beowulf:

Queen Wealtheow In Beowulf

►

StoneyB

00:45

Here's some real OE: youtube.com/watch?v=zfaEGU45lKA

(I don't know how to post it in the box)

Damkerng T.

Oh, it sounds quite different from English!

@StoneyB The chat will turn a YouTube link into a one-box if the entire message is the link.

StoneyB

The Battle of Brunanburh (Old English Reading)

►

Bingo!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Oh, I can't even guess almost all of the words!

Ah, the /r/ sound is strongly thrilled!

StoneyB

I can recognize a few, but I don't know enough of the grammar to follow it spoken.

The translation helps, but it goes past too fast for me, and it's usually behind the speech.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think I can match only some names to the translation.

Thanks for the clip! I always wonder how Old English sounds like. :-)

StoneyB

00:54

But the metre is very familiar -- that 2 + 2 stress pattern still underlies the Shakespearean line, though he distributes the 4 stresses over 5 'feet'.

Damkerng T.

I have only my ignorance of English meters in poems. I can only feel its beauty by heart.

StoneyB

Metre is what grabs me first in poetry, prolly cause I was a drummer when I was a kid, and then because I got into poetry mostly as an actor. It's all about knowing where the kicks come!

Damkerng T.

Neat! I'm not very good at drum (and I can play only another kind of drum :-). I can only get by in recreation with kids at camps. (I've done a lot of camps in my younger days.)

StoneyB

Hand drumming is good training for poetry. When I was a kid there was a Beat Generation fad for poetry readings accompanied by bongo drums.

Damkerng T.

01:09

Oh, it was a show, I think!

StoneyB

Here‌'s Tennyson's "translation" of the BoB. It's not literal, because he's eager to preserve the sound patterns, but it's remarkably close.

Damkerng T.

I wonder why I can't access that page (it keeps spinning). I'll try it later.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Yes, it became popular in the jazz clubs of Greenwich Village in New York; and it actually got its start among the African-American poets of the Harlem Renaissance.

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the background info! That should help me find it more easily.

StoneyB

Maybe you can get this, which is even better 'cause it has the OE and a literal translation side by side with the Tennyson.

Damkerng T.

01:14

This link works. Thanks!

StoneyB

And here's @Araucaria, who prolly knows a lot more about OE than I do.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... it looks like OE has no k in its alphabet!

StoneyB

No -- OE scribal practise came in the first instance from the Irish, who employed the Roman <c>. I'm not sure when it came to be supplemented with <k>, but it was certainly there by the 15th century.

Damkerng T.

nods

StoneyB

Ah -- OED 1 says it came in with the Normans, who used <k> before front vowels because in French the stop had become palatalized as /s/ in that context.

1066 and All That!

And that's how we (mostly) use <c> and <k> right down to the present.

Damkerng T.

01:32

One source of confusions in spelling! Hehe!

It's so konfusing sometimes! :-)

Ah, I just saw the similarity between the two letters: c and k

| + c = k

StoneyB

Yah, it's amazing that anybody ever learns to spell English. Yet we do!

Damkerng T.

Indeed we do!

StoneyB

Actually, <C> was originally a sign sort of like <7> (gimel=a throwing stick) which stood for /g/. The Greeks turned it around as <Γ> (gamma), and the Romans turned it on its side and rounded it <C>. <K> originally faced in the opposite direction and represented a hand (kaf=palm, grip).

I'm fading fast, and hafta go to work tomorrow (blechhh). I'd better go sleep some, or my boss will think I've retired without telling her!

Jim Reynolds

01:47

Buon giorno.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Have a good sleep!

Jim Reynolds

Jim must've already slept.

Damkerng T.

I got some typos somewhere again?

StoneyB

Guten Abend. Gotta sleep.

Jim Reynolds

@Dam: We'd normally interpret as: has slept and finished sleeping.

Night Stoney

Damkerng T.

01:49

Guten Nacht!

Jim Reynolds

O.0

No swearing!

Damkerng T.

?

@JimReynolds Oh, I see.

Jim Reynolds

Guten Nacht means something about one's (six) mothers on my planet.

Damkerng T.

I didn't want to say "in bed" because you aren't in hospital. :P

Jim Reynolds

Ha. US has to be in the hospital. O.o

Damkerng T.

01:51

See, it's only 75% AmE. :D

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Working as programmed.

Damkerng T.

in English Language Learners, Jun 15 '14 at 5:38, by Damkerng T.

> Our top three guesses for your English dialect: 1. English (England) 2. Scottish (UK) 3. Welsh (UK)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language: 1. Norwegian 2. English 3. Swedish

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Damkerng T.

Yanno, I'm Norwegian. :P

Or at least a website thought I was. :-)

Come to think of it, I think I can avoid "in bed" and make the meaning clear with something like, "I think he must've gone to sleep already."

Hmm... that doesn't sound as good as I thought. Pretty challenging.

Actually, I think that's interesting...

> Where is James?
a) I think he must be in Paris.
b) I think he must've been in Paris.
c) I think he must've been to Paris.
d) I think he must've visited Paris.
e) I think he must've been visiting Paris.

sleep: "to go into a natural state in which you are unconscious for a time and your body rests, especially for several hours at night"

It's a "transform" verb!

Hmm... that's not right. It should be an activity verb.

Oh, problem solved: I think he must be asleep.

Damkerng T.

02:27

Another alternative: I think he must be sleeping (even simpler)

But I think the perfect aspect was what I had in mind, so maybe: I think he must've been sleeping

Jim Reynolds

02:49

Most commonly, I'd say one of:

He might have gone to bed.

May have

Must have (if I thought it was a fairly likely guess/explanation.

. . . gone to sleep.

. . . went to bed/sleep.

He may be/might be/must be sleeping.

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Jim Reynolds

must have been sleeping in this context implies past (and that the sleeping is or may be over).

Damkerng T.

Eh, I don't think so.

Do you really think that He must have been sleeping means he is awake?

Jim Reynolds

I guess the reason it's a bit odd is go to sleep/bed = started.

Damkerng T.

I mean, it's different from He must have slept, right?

Jim Reynolds

02:57

Here, yes!

Otherwise: must be asleep.

Yes and no!

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

I guess that you've never heard He must have been sleeping before. (I'm trying to deduce why you think it's weird.)

> The neighbors all must have been sleeping.

What would you think if someone said that?

A second guess is that in AmE, using must have [something] to assert something is probably not as common as in BrE.

Jim Reynolds

An explanation for a past event. But I have no reason to suppose they are still sleeping.

Damkerng T.

I think I'm starting to see what happened to those Brits in your interview.

Jim Reynolds

So the key is context. If it's likely I'm still sleeping, we won't use present perfect!

Damkerng T.

But the present perfect and the present perfect progressive are different, right?

> a) He must have slept.
b) He must have been sleeping.

Is it not possible at all that he is sleeping now in each alternative?

Jim Reynolds

03:07

We won't use either if we assume he's still sleeping.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... That's interesting.

Jim Reynolds

We'd say He must be sleeping.

Damkerng T.

It's worth further investigation, imho.

Jim Reynolds

He must have gone to sleep/bed.

Yes.

Damkerng T.

books.google.com/books?id=Sf1XiyQVyx4C&pg=PA13

Jim Reynolds

03:08

I know it's interesting, but I can't immediately say why.

Damkerng T.

Can you see that page? (Sometimes Google shows different pages to people in different parts of the world.)

Jim Reynolds

Lemme see.

Damkerng T.

(I didn't base my judgement on the information on that page, BTW.)

Jim Reynolds

I see Lesson 13.

Damkerng T.

Yes! Check out 130.8

Oh! Wrong page! Sorry!

Fixed: books.google.com/books?id=Sf1XiyQVyx4C&pg=PA132

Jim Reynolds

03:14

We will differentiate in some contexts.

He must be returning home . . .

Damkerng T.

But you just ruled out all possible contexts a moment ago.

Jim Reynolds

He must have been returning home . . .

?

Damkerng T.

8 mins ago, by Jim Reynolds

We won't use either if we assume he's still sleeping.

Jim Reynolds

Yes.

No perfect if we assume the action is continuing.

Damkerng T.

How would you explain 130.8?

Jim Reynolds

03:18

If we are explaining why st was true at a certain point in the past AND we have reason to assume the action/state continues at present.

We will use present continuous

Damkerng T.

Is it fair if I conclude that it's dialectal?

Jim Reynolds

Hold on. I'm travelling on the subway!

No, I don't think so.

Is AmE a dialect?

Damkerng T.

Yes, to me.

Or do you want to treat American as another language?

Jim Reynolds

I didn't know!

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Jim Reynolds

03:22

I thought AmE and BrE were too close to be diff dialects.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... The two are clearly different to me, and each of them still has lots of sub-dialects.

Jim Reynolds

Forgot def of dialect.

Damkerng T.

But the most important English for learners is the one that nobody really speaks: Standard English.

(At least, not at home, I think.)

Jim Reynolds

Standard Jimish is most important to me.

Damkerng T.

Hahaha!

Jim Reynolds

03:28

130.8

《processing》

They are looking at him, or possibly thinking about him?

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think it's fair to say both.

The mother(?) is describing the event to the children, I suppose.

Jim Reynolds

If they are looking at him, then we can use perfect because aspect is past, finished.

Damkerng T.

Huh?

Jim Reynolds

He must have been sleeping at the time.

Are you agitated?

Damkerng T.

Yes, but he is not sleeping?

No, I'm just trying to follow your reasoning.

Jim Reynolds

03:32

He clearly is, right?

It's not reasoning. I think so far, I'm reporting facts.

Damkerng T.

But you've said before that it's not possible that he is sleeping when someone says He must have been sleeping.

Jim Reynolds

There is some key as to why something is puzzling.

I said "not if we ASSUME he's still sleeping."

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

What do you mean by assume?

user62015

Hi! Morning guys! @DamkerngT. @JimReynolds

Damkerng T.

@user62015 Hi!

user62015

03:39

Which one is more suitable? Two hours after Yama left to Indra’s home or two hours after Yama left for Indra’s home.

Damkerng T.

Do I really have to pick one?

user62015

Yes.

Left for vs left to?

Damkerng T.

Well, then, I pick for.

user62015

I was thinking the same.

So 'left to' is wrong or it works?

Damkerng T.

I think it's less idiomatic.

But I feel reluctant to say that it's wrong.

user62015

03:43

Sounds good.

Damkerng T.

I remember that the How are you going? question surprised everyone before.

Until an Australian speaker mentioned that it's a common Australian phrase.

user62015

I used it.

Damkerng T.

Oh, so you're an OZ!

Jim Reynolds

In American English it must be "left for".

Damkerng T.

nods

user62015

03:46

@JimReynolds @DamkerngT. Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

Jim Reynolds

If we know someone is sleeping now, then it's clear we are focused on a past event only.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds We can't always be sure that someone looking like sleeping is really sleeping, I think.

(I was thinking of that illus.)

Jim Reynolds

Does he have Z's around his head?

user62015

@DamkerngT. @JimReynolds This sentence sounds odd to my ears: When he was coming back home it 'became' night.

Damkerng T.

03:50

@JimReynolds I think not (I don't have it on my tab at the moment.)

user62015

Became night?

Jim Reynolds

It does sound a little odd. But not wrong.

Damkerng T.

It sounds a bit odd to me, too, but still acceptable in my judgement.

user62015

Okay.

Jim Reynolds

Night fell as he was returning home.

Damkerng T.

03:52

Good fix!

user62015

Yes.

Jim Reynolds

Dam, I bet @sna will explain our situation in eight words or less.

Damkerng T.

Hahaha!

Jim Reynolds

But I'm certain of what I said. :-)

Oh. I dislike making that claim!!

Damkerng T.

I don't doubt you a bit. I'm trying to understand your usage and mine.

@JimReynolds I think it's a fair statement.

I mean, I'm sure that I speak my first language properly, too. (Who wouldn't (be sure about their own language)!?)

Jim Reynolds

03:55

Staying with the situation, I think the idea is:

Well, native speakers often make English mistakes.

But here, I know what we'd say or not.

Well, native speakers often make English mistakes.

O.O

Damkerng T.

Hey, you're emphasizing it! :-)

Jim Reynolds

Stupud timeout/retry message.

Damkerng T.

I know! It bugged me sometimes, too!

Jim Reynolds

I mean stoopid!!

I think he went to sleep/bed (finished past EVENT in a finished time period) and it's implicit that he's probably still in bed or still sleeping.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Same here.

Jim Reynolds

04:00

So we won't use slept

We both understand why, right?

The question is Why no perfect?

Damkerng T.

That's indeed the question.

Jim Reynolds

I suppose there must be a "priority."

Damkerng T.

To me, He must have been sleeping clearly means that "I'm quite sure that he fell asleep a while ago and I think he is still sleeping."

Maybe "a while ago" is not what I want to say; it's actually indefinite (when he fell asleep).

Jim Reynolds

Since we are supposing we know his present status, I think we may "prioritize" the present aspect.

If that's what we call it.

He must be sleeping.

He must have gone to sleep.

He could still be going (on his way) or he could still be asleep, or he might have awakened.

Damkerng T.

This is getting interesting. Maybe the order (or priority) is different in the two dialects.

Jim Reynolds

04:06

It is interesting!

I don't think there's a Br-Am diff here.

But I'm not 100% on that.

Damkerng T.

But you've seen the picture in 130.8, right?

I think the author was an Englishman.

Hmm... maybe I shouldn't've used was; I'm not that certain.

Oh, yes. Was was correct.

He passed away in 2002, at 70.

Jim Reynolds

This might give us insight:

*He must have been sleeping and he must still have been sleeping.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... perhaps. To me still is unnecessary.

Jim Reynolds

We cannot say both using the perfect.

I am just saying that if we are expressing both ideas . . .

Was and still is . . .

I'm trying to explore why we can't use perfect.

I know, of course, that we can use present perfect when something remains true at present.

But not in this situation!!

And why not? That, Romeo, is the question.

:D

I can write it on ELU!

Damkerng T.

Yes! Indeed!

Jim Reynolds

04:18

Or ELL?

Damkerng T.

Let's see... Let's suppose that it's not possible in AmE... If it's true, we shouldn't find enough examples on COCA.

@JimReynolds I think ELL is also a good place, too. (To me, both sites are about the same when it's about grammar stuff.)

Jim Reynolds

To me, He must have been sleeping clearly means that "I'm quite sure that he fell asleep a while ago and I think he is still sleeping."

You believe that the second part is necessarily implied?

You have a loose wire, robot.

Damkerng T.

Yes, unless the context strongly suggests otherwise.

Jim Reynolds

o.o

Damkerng T.

For example, You must have been sleeping through the 1960s, Pat. (an example from COCA)

It's not sleeping sleeping here, I'd say.

Jim Reynolds

04:23

But there is no assumption Pat is still sleeping.

Damkerng T.

And through the 1960s is clear.

Jim Reynolds

On the contrary.

Yes.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds For me, that's the implication. Its literal meaning is derived from the through phrase.

Jim Reynolds

The implication is what?

Still sleeping?

Damkerng T.

That it's not about sleeping at all.

But its literal meaning is about sleeping.

Jim Reynolds

04:26

I think that might not matter with respect to the issue at hand.

Damkerng T.

I found 6 must have been sleeping; none fits our case.

Found one in AusE, but I'm not sure about the speaker.

Jim Reynolds

I think he has gone to sleep.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's from here: theroar.com.au/2012/11/16/…

Jim Reynolds

That is ok. Why?

Damkerng T.

> oikee said | November 17th 2012 @ 4:05pm | Report comment

I think i said it was too volitile.
India and China are more stable nations, plus they have 2 billion plus people to contend with.
I think Brisbane has 2 Indian sister cities and maybe 3 Chinese sisters.
These cities also nearly contain Australia’s population, and getting bigger by the week.
The dragon awoke while you must have been sleeping.

Do you think the reader is a native speaker?

(I haven't evaluated the text yet.)

Looks okay to me.

Jim Reynolds

04:32

In any case, there's no assumption being made about the ptesent.

Damkerng T.

Fair enough. It's like those other 5 examples on COCA. All of them are used in past narratives.

Jim Reynolds

I yearn for a great, comprehensive guide to using COCA.

Well, maybe I have one now.

My pet Thai robot!

Damkerng T.

:D

The problem is COCA is not very large.

Jim Reynolds

Yes. 450 million sounds like a lot!

Damkerng T.

I didn't expect to find many hits of must be sleeping or must have been sleeping.

@JimReynolds No, it's really rather small.

Jim Reynolds

04:36

But I'm often surprised by what's not in there, or how few instances there can be of things.

Let me test. Starts counting.

Damkerng T.

Once we fix the verb, the number of hits will be reduced dramatically.

Jim Reynolds

I'm opening up my trusty old Grammar for English Teachers.

Let's see if it says anything relevant.

Damkerng T.

On GloWbE: must be sleeping 25 (5 from COCA), must have been sleeping 21 (5 from COCA)

All are basically not our case.

Jim Reynolds

I dunno GloWbE

:'(

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds COCA is part of GloWbE. GloWbE is Global Web-Based English.

GloWbE covers 20 dialects.

COCA is mainly AmE (but it's possible that the results will be written or spoken by speakers from other dialects or non-native speakers; e.g. let's say that everyone can post a comment on a US-based website, and if COCA includes the site, it will include such a text in the comment as well).

Jim Reynolds

04:43

Yep.

I'm just thinking now.

It seems the same situation applies to He must have been going (to somewhere).

I went to his office, but he had already left.

Damkerng T.

I think go and sleep aren't quite the same.

Jim Reynolds

He must have been going home.

I won't say that if I know or assume that he's still on his way home.

At the time of speaking. O.O

Right!

I don't think we can say that.

He must be on his way home.

Damkerng T.

He must have been going home is very ambiguous to me.

(To the point that I think nobody will really use it.)

Jim Reynolds

He must have been driving home.

I think it's ok: He must have been going home?

Where was he?

What was he doing?

He must have been going home.

Damkerng T.

How about He must have been working?

Jim Reynolds

04:50

Yes. I tried to call him, but he didn't answer.

Damkerng T.

Or He must have been painting the door?

Jim Reynolds

He must have been working.

We won't say it if we know or assume that he's still working now.

Damkerng T.

Isn't it the same in our sleeping case?

Jim Reynolds

Yes,.

Damkerng T.

Okay.

Jim Reynolds

04:52

So, what''s the most common verb

?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Hmm... it's the second time that I think you use assume differently from me.

Jim Reynolds

be
have
do
say
get
make

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I don't think we can really replace one verb with another, especially in a subtle case like this.

Jim Reynolds

I just thought it might be useful to test how we can say we think something was happening and is still happening.

Say that something happened (began) and is still happening.

Damkerng T.

Instead of We won't say it if we know or assume that he's still working now, I think I'm more comfortable with We won't say it ('He must have been working.') if we know (that he's still working now), but only when we assume (i.e. really certain but not 100% sure) that he's still working now.

Jim Reynolds

04:55

OK. It's not that we use assume to mean different things.

We have different ideas about when we can or do use the present perfect continuous.

At least in a certain example.

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

Human idea, and robot idea.

Who won the last major chess tournament between human and machine?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Who passed as a Norwegian! :-)

Jim Reynolds

:-)

I'm 25%, actually!

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Actually, I don't know much about Norway, except that it sounds like a great place to live in.

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