The Whiteboard

rolfl

9:01 PM

If you're a contractor, then do you have to provide notice? What is the contractual obligation?

user15026

@rolfl Contract says 14 days

rolfl

Complicated situation... I just suggest sending them a link to this transcript ;-)

user41796

@rolfl What division are you in?

user15026

Or "pay a fine"

rolfl

@GlenH7 hardware Acceleration Lab.

user41796

9:02 PM

Now I'm trying to guess which part of the country that's in.

rolfl

small group, part SWG, pet division of a fellow.

user41796

I used to work in SWG and then IGS

rolfl

Canada (Toronto).

user15026

Oh, you are closeish to me! (I think I have mentioned that before, though! Just not used to SE folks being in my province, let alone that near :P)

Ampt

@MichaelT so you just left when he did? loving it

user55340

9:04 PM

@Ampt I gave two weeks... but it was part of the period of realization there that programmers have other options and the way they are being treated isn't acceptable.

user15026

I don't really feel bad if I have to outright say I quit as of 1am tonight, if that is how it falls out

user55340

Ah ha! Found one of the "not a migration messes" @rolfl

user55340

This one was from earlier today:

user55340

-6

Q: How to uppercase vectors

Read a sequence of words from cin and store the values in a vector. After you've read all the words,process the vector and change each word to uppercase.Print the transformed elements, eight words to a line. I finally got it - #include <iostream> #include <string> #include <vector> using std:...

c++

user55340

Posting off-topic question on this site because you are question banned on Stack Overflow will only server to get you banned here as well. — Oded ♦ 5 hours ago

user55340

9:11 PM

I go to codereview . I got kicked from there. I posted a question like this in stackoverflow I got kicked from there too as well . Where the hell should I ask for a solution ?? — Himagra Chawla 5 hours ago

user55340

Do not post off-topic content on a site in an attempt to circumvent a block on another site. This is not an appropriate question here - if you wish to get out of the block on Stack Overflow, please read the linked article that appears on the block message. You know, this one. — gnat 5 hours ago

user55340

Realize that it has been identified that three, down voted, closed questions on P.SE will result in a question ban.

rolfl

And, there was this:

WHERE SHOULD I POST IT THEN ? — Himagra Chawla 7 hours ago

Nowhere. You have to attempt something yourself first. Check other sites on the Internet for assistance on writing this code. — Jamal ♦ 5 hours ago

user55340

They should have been given better guidance at an earlier opportunity.

rolfl

That is not a good example of someone following the advice of the close message. That's a good example of a SO rejection spamming the whole of SE to find an open ear. What's odd is that he came to us, before he came to you.

And, what's more, is you guys recommend stack overflow:

If you can provide more detail about what the problem is, what you have tried, and changed the tone so it does not sound like "do my homework for me" this question might be on-topic at Stack Overflow. — Snowman 6 hours ago

Which is not much different from what we do.

user55340

9:16 PM

Its individualized guidance that addresses the specifics of that problem.

rolfl

This question appears to be off-topic because it is about reviewing code. — ratchet freak 6 hours ago

^^^ a regular on Code Review too.

user55340

0

Q: Issure with HTTP GET Parameters in Python CGI

I am learning how to use HTML in Python. When I open the HTML I get the Ferrari Fiat Ford, which is what I am expecting but then I click on Ferrari and it opens up the new page as , make,model, which is not what I am wanting. I am wanting Ferrari Dino. Could you help me understand what my code i...

python html

user55340

0

Q: Issue with HTTP GET Parameters in Python CGI

I am learning web development in Python. When I open the HTML I get the Ferrari Fiat Ford, which is what I am expecting but then I click on Ferrari and it opens up the new page as make, model, which is not what I want. I want Ferrari Dino. Could you help me understand what is the problem? <!DOC...

python html

user55340

Could have been migrated instead.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn just make sure that doesn't put you into a legal tussle... but otherwise I'm with you on that one!

rolfl

9:19 PM

@MichaelT is there a programmers question there too?

I can't see one ....

user15026

@Ampt I don't suspect it would, and if it does, I suspect I could fight it

user55340

@rolfl It was reposted on Stack Overflow.

rolfl

No, it was reposted to Code Review.

It was asked on SO 64 seconds before CR.

spammer.

user55340

You'll often see a "This question appears to be off topic because it is seeking debugging but has already been posted on Stack Overflow (link). Please do not crosspost (link to MSE)"

rolfl

@MichaelT - you seen this:

user55340

9:23 PM

Stack Overflow has run out of migration slots.

rolfl

Stack Overflow.... ^^^^

So have we ;-)

user55340

They also have more custom slots than other sites... again, that request that is floating out there for more.

rolfl

Regardless, you have found one example where Code Review is the victim, and another example where the user was hitting every possible site anyway because their question belonged on SO, but could not post there.

user55340

We had significant problems early on with a close reason that suggested reposting. Caused many headaches. And workplace asked us to remove the one mentioning them.

rolfl

In that (second) case, admittedly, there is the possiblility that the idea of programmers came from CR's close reason

I am not 'blocking' you on this discussion, I am listening, I am trying to get a feel for how much of a problem this really is, and I have spoken with the programmers mods about this too.

user55340

9:26 PM

The best answer would come from SE... being able to dig into the deleted questions more readily.

rolfl

they have, so far, agreed in part with you, but are looking at things from a different perspective than me (us).

We have very few options available to us... and we are going through them.

user55340

I'd rather get migrations than reposts - especially in cases where there's any commentary or answer on the origin site.

rolfl

You should be clear that changing that message is probably not going to change any behavior wih respect to cross-posts.

user55340

It might divert some that are about code to Stack Overflow rather than having them get another closed question here.

rolfl

All the evidence is that people never read the close reason anyway ;-) (just like they don't read the help/on-topic.

user55340

9:29 PM

The migration though, helps identify problems in the understanding on various sites. The feedback available in the 10k tools (how many, how many rejected and links to all of them) makes it easier to help people who are doing the migration understand the scope of the other site better because its easier to find.

user55340

For example programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/258468/… (10k link P.SE) from codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/65099/… was closed as primarily opinion - and that helps those who closed it look at it and understand why it was closed.

rolfl

You keep back-referencing to migration. That's completely different, and controlled by moderators. The failure rate is very low (a recent failure was almost by design, with pre-arranged participation from the mods of programmers) (programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/258468/…)

user55340

@rolfl You're tied with Stack Overflow -> P.SE for rejection rate.

user55340

rolfl

This is moot.

the migration question/issue is different, and misleading.

(again).

Still, if you're interested:

Ampt

9:36 PM

I'm completely lost in this conversation. can someone give me the digest? Are we upset due to the wording of close messages suggesting reposting somewhere else?

rolfl

4

Q: Close reasons and migrations (and stats?)

One of the close reasons that exists is: Questions containing broken code or asking for advice about code not yet written are off-topic, as the code is not ready for review. Such questions may be suitable for Stack Overflow or Programmers. After the question has been edited to contain working...

discussion close-reasons migration broken-code

MichaelT is suggesting that questions closed like this:

-4

Q: Saving the web pages by reading the list of urls from file

How can I solve this problem, we have given a text file with 999999 URLs. we have to write a python program to read this file & save all the webpages in a folder called 'saved_page'. I have tried to solve this problem something like this, import os import urllib save_path='C:/test/home_page/' N...

python url

is causing an unacceptable 'transferral' of bad questions cross-posted to programmers.

user55340

@Ampt In my close voting here, especially with code, I've started checking CR.SE along with SO to check if there are reposts from other sites... and occasionally find them coming from CR.SE. These have a close reason that seems to suggest that asking about "how do I write this code?" is on topic on P.SE.

user55340

The "code not yet written" wording.

Ampt

Ah, ok.

Interesting. Kind of hard to get a stat for too since it's cross posting we're worried about

user55340

Its not "code not yet written" thats appropriate here, its more along the lines of "design, and architecture of the application and associated use of patterns."

user55340

9:40 PM

@Ampt SE can dig into it with cross site queries... though it needs to be SE because they're often deleted posts at one, or both, sites.

rolfl

^^^ that.

Ampt

so get a Meta question going?

seems like both sites are interested in it

user55340

4

Q: Close reasons and migrations (and stats?)

One of the close reasons that exists is: Questions containing broken code or asking for advice about code not yet written are off-topic, as the code is not ready for review. Such questions may be suitable for Stack Overflow or Programmers. After the question has been edited to contain working...

discussion close-reasons migration broken-code

user55340

Not quite mentioned there, one of the things I want to avoid is the meme on Code Review that "code not yet written" is appropriate for P.SE. Its almost as bad as the "if it doesn't have code, ask on P.SE" on SO.

Ampt

> It is not the responsibility of Code Review to educate all new users about how to use other sites. If the help pages on those sites are not effective at directing new users to use those sites appropriately, then there is little that Code Review can do better.

no offense, but if you're going to call us out by name and suggest us as resources, you kind of have brought that onto yourselves

rolfl

9:43 PM

I have directed the CM's to it (Hi @pops ) and spoken with @ThomasOwens about it too (hi all).

user55340

@MichaelT - "However, when another SE community makes the mistake of migrating a... well... crap question" - I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the other site responsibility ends by routing a question to the correct site. Its not the other site's responsibility to rate a question for the new site or enforce policies on the the new site. I [personally] would not feel comfortable enforcing policies for Physics.SE or Math.SE or Server Fault. They have to police their own stuff. — jww Sep 4 at 22:53

user55340

@jww If the other site had a good idea that it would be closed for some reason (the "whats wrong with my code:" choice), it is not proper for the site to migrate it. If it isn't going to be a good question on the target site, don't migrate it. Don't. Migrate. Crap. That aside, the questions are closed here. That isn't the issue I'm asking: Does SO want to keep that question locked, forever, in a state that it cannot be edited, deleted, or otherwise voted on except by special mod action? Or should this be flagged to fix it? — MichaelT Sep 4 at 22:56

rolfl

@Ampt Not at all. We are not calling you out, we are specifically directing people to your on-help pages.

user55340

For some reason, I can't get Robert's message one boxed.

user55340

> @jww Crap is crap. It has to be a good question first. Then it has to be on-topic on the target site. – Robert Harvey♦ Sep 4 at 23:49

user55340

9:45 PM

Do it the old fashioned way.

rolfl

And at what point are we going back to migrations.

we don't typically migrate anything, and when we do, it is normally with the explicit blessing of your moderators.

user55340

@rolfl I regularly look on SO for suggestions in comments to repost on P.SE.

rolfl

we do not migrate crap.

user55340

Suggesting reposting of crap can be just as bad.

Ampt

It's not migrations, it's cross posting, unless I'm understanding this wrong

rolfl

9:46 PM

^^^ no, you are right.

Thomas Owens

@rolfl False. If you think that it is a good question, please just migrate it. We'll deal with it. And if it's really bad, believe me, we'll let you know.

rolfl

MichaelT keeps brining up migrations though. That's a different issue altogether.

@ThomasOwens That's not practical.

Thomas Owens

@rolfl That's policy. Is is off-topic for you? If yes, if is crap? If no, is there an existing site that you think it belongs? If yes, migrate.

That's standard SE workflow.

rolfl

Correct, and that's the whole point.

Give me a second to get this all out at once....

Thomas Owens

OK.

Ampt

9:48 PM

Ok, then why not list all the possible SE sites and say your question may be on topic at any of these sites? Why limit it to SO and Progs?

rolfl

Questions that are off-topic on Code Review bcause they are lacking a feature they want 'reviewed' are really saying: I have this code, it mostly works, but the crux is too hard and I need help. Can you review it, and fill in the blanks.

Many times, questions like that^^^^ are good candidates for "I have this problem in that I need the right algorithm, data structure, etc/ to solve this problem, what is it?"

Incomplete code is completely off-topic for both programmers, and Code Review.

The second type of question, is on-topic on Programmers.

IF the user can restucture their question to make it on topic and focussed in a Programmers way, then it would be good for you.

Jimmy Hoffa

how on earth do you use a mac??? gah. The home and end keys are all wrong, and I use those keys probably every 4th key stroke because I'm used to navigating all over a file...

rolfl

That is not a migration, that is a 'rewrite'.

it's also not a cross-post.

And it is also true for Stack overflow.

A question that would be good on SO is not a question that is good for Code Review.

Thomas Owens

I agree. However, I don't like suggesting other sites in close reasons (or comments).

rolfl

A CR question woul dneed to be distilled down to a SCSEE and the error traces added, etc. before a 'cross post' to Stack Overflow

Jimmy Hoffa

9:52 PM

@rolfl ok now distilation is on topic 'round here

rolfl

So, the intention is not to direct people to re-post "as is" to programmers, the intention is to say: sort out your real issue, and find the appropriate place to ask.

user55340

(The home and end are in the ANSI standard locations on my keyboard... insert is... not there.. its 'fn' but thats another issue/matter)

Thomas Owens

@rolfl That may be the intention, but to an inexperienced or lazy user, that's not what happens.

rolfl

Is the right solution to remove all references to the Programmers and SO sites?

Thomas Owens

9:54 PM

Yes.

I can't speak for SO, of course.

rolfl

And just say: Your question sucks, and there's nowhere we can think of that may help with the actual problems you have?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT location is not a problem - but they scroll to the end / beginning of the file !??

user55340

Address the specifics for that question to identify the necessary steps to make it on topic on another site.

Jimmy Hoffa

they're supposed to be end/beginning of line, ctrl+end/home is end/beginning of file

Thomas Owens

^^ That.

rolfl

9:55 PM

@MichaelT But not in a comment?

Thomas Owens

In a comment. But it has to say exactly what needs to be done to make it a good question.

user55340

If its not in a comment, its a canned message and it had better be good at identifying the problems.

rolfl

4 mins ago, by Thomas Owens

I agree. However, I don't like suggesting other sites in close reasons (or comments).

Thomas Owens

@rolfl There's a difference between suggesting improving the question on your site for migration and throwing out other sites.

user55340

> This question is off topic on Programmers.Stack Exchange. It would best be answered on Stack Overflow, however, the question doesn't meet the minimum requirements for a question on Stack Overflow. Please read the Stack Overflow question checklist to fix up your question for migration.

rolfl

9:57 PM

And it's not enough to say: Read the programmers help page to see if your problems can be addressed by asking a question there?

Thomas Owens

Your current reason doesn't do that.

user55340

@ThomasOwens it does link... but we all know how many people actually read all of that.

Thomas Owens

Yeah. Enough people come here on their own without reading the help cetner.

rolfl

Note, we point people to the on-topic page, not to the ask-a-question page.

I get the distinct impression though, that the hurdle for directing people to programmers is very high.... and that you'd rather us not mention programmers at all.

Thomas Owens

If you want to mention us in your Help Center as a place to go, that would be nice. But not in a close reason.

And not in a comment without some kind of specific guidance.

rolfl

10:00 PM

OK, that seems to be the best option then.

Thomas Owens

When you guys graduate, be sure to ping me.

I want to make sure CR has a good link in our Help Center, as well.

If you guys want it.

rolfl

You should also see this: data.stackexchange.com/codereview/query/234691/…

Those are the successful times that people have been refferred to programmers by the same messages.

Thomas Owens

That's...not a lot.

rolfl

No, but it is based on closed questions in SEDE, most of which are deleted.

so, it's only really things in the past week or so.

the list of failures is 0 from the same time period.

In other words, it has been more useful than not.

(at least based on the evidence in SEDE).

(failures: data.stackexchange.com/codereview/query/234092/double-closed).

user55340

On P.SE, we tend to be rather active with down votes and deletions. Either of those can lead to questions getting cleaned up within a few days. The failure rate should take into account those deleted questions.

Ampt

10:09 PM

@MichaelT "Rather Active" <- LOL

that's one way of putting it, yes

user55340

There are two divers of that 'rather active' - the "why is everything closed and down voted on the front page?!" type response and the "well, there are other questions there" (not taking into account that they are closed and down voted)

user55340

btw, @Ampt if you want to spend some close votes: job-market has some things that could use some attention.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT when you're in a windows environment do you use home/end? What about a mac? That totally threw me today

user55340

Rarely do I use windows for media consumption... its pure gaming.

user55340

And that said, on a mac...

user55340

10:14 PM

Jimmy Hoffa

media? I'm talking coding

user55340

I'm a Java guy... why would I use my one screen PC for coding when my mac has two huge screens and can code just as well?

Jimmy Hoffa

Did you not code on a windows machine in previous jobs?

I presume you go back and forth - coding on windows at work and mac at home

sorry, *nix not windows likely

now that I think of it... in nix does end/home go to the beginning/end of a file and not line?

being a total touch typist when I code, my muscle memory for home/end is so strong I can't imagine the context switch of going with it sometimes and without it others, I would think perhaps a mac person like yourself just never ever uses home/end

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Employer^ was Ubuntu or Mac (I had a mac). Employer^^ was windows in most places, but 2/3 of the time, I was on a linux box. Employer^^^ was Windows, though that was quite awhile back... and honestly, most of the time I was switched to a old linux box so I could use vi efficiently without jumping through hoops... and for a period of time there, it was personal mac laptop.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT yes but you didn't answer my question, do you use the home/end keys?

user55340

10:26 PM

@JimmyHoffa And yea, rarely do I touch the home/end at all.

Jimmy Hoffa

ah

how did you navigate to beginning/end of line on windows? Is there a different key combination I'm not familiar with?

Did you just hold control + arrow and never use beginning of line/end of line?

Ampt

@MichaelT For your future reference

Jimmy Hoffa

Or do you use vi's bindings?

user55340

vi bindings in many situations.

Jimmy Hoffa

that makes sense

user55340

10:31 PM

Also, thinking back, many times it wasn't even an option to use an IDE.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT home/end aren't IDE related

it's OS behaviour

user55340

Perl? Nope. Good ol'e vi. Java? It took awhile for eclipse to become useful. Used vi for the first quite a while.

user55340

Its a "if you aren't using an ide, you're using vi"

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT ...but vi is an ide :P

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Only with sufficient add ons.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:32 PM

what if you were stuck in sublime text as I just was, how then would you navigate to the beginning and end of lines?

ctrl+arrows? or are you used to makes cmd+arrows for that?

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I'd say "I'm really sorry."

Ampt

well

thats a quick way to run out of close votes

user55340

Oh, @Ampt you'll like this one: reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2j6396/…

Ampt

it's like shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun

Jimmy Hoffa

I need to drop more bounties then, where's your 10k @Ampt??

user55340

10:34 PM

@JimmyHoffa that's a lot of bounties to get him there.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT haha yeah, and his answers would have to be a lot better ;P

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I get way too emotionally attached to my answers. I'm happy right where I'm at

user55340

(I'm still wondering about the long tail on Objective C lack of namespaces)

Ampt

I like that intellij doesn't hide anything

it's very open and helpful about what you're changing

even to the point of trying to help you achieve that goal. eclipse always felt like it was working against me

there are some... challenging spots for me yet though

user55340

Needing the bazillion plugins for eclipse to get to a "you can start coding now"

Ampt

10:39 PM

the whole modules and project setup are annoying, and some of the defaults when you create a new project are bizarre

user55340

svneclipse, mvneclipse, pmd, checkstyle, ...

Ampt

(Clicking on a new haskell project allows me to check a box for python or java, what does that even mean?)

user55340

@Ampt If I understand what you're looking at, its about adding the associated language frameworks to the project.

user55340

You could have a haskell project with some python scripts sitting along side it for some reason.

Ampt

One sec, I"ll grab a screenshot

what does that even mean?

user55340

10:43 PM

@Ampt umm... dunno there.

Ampt

Or I can make a java... python project?

user55340

Its about adding the frameworks for the language in the project.

Ampt

ok, thats what I thought. I just didnt check anything and hit next and it worked

user55340

More frameworks in the project means more memory usage and such.

Ampt

its just interesting that Java isn't an option

but python and sql are

user55340

10:45 PM

If your java project uses sql, and osgi, add them... but if it doesn't, don't.

user55340

Why they're part of the haskell project structure? Thats... a good question for the author.

Ampt

I'll ask JetBrains lol

it's their plugin

also, if you haven't already done so...

user55340

So it is...

user55340

plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/7453?pr=

Ampt

Please vote

It's going to happen eventually, but I'd like it sooner rather than later

Robert Harvey

10:52 PM

How do I vote?

user55340

click the thumbs up in the lower right of the problem area.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey have to make an account too

Robert Harvey

Eh...

Ampt

It's alright if you don't :)

it's just something I want fixed

Need more closevotes...

Close that thing question

Jimmy Hoffa

0

Q: Adding quirks from an old system to a new system because that's what people are used to - a term for this?

Is there a term for the above? When building a new system developers are sometimes instructed (that is a different issue) to "keep things as they are", regardless of how inefficient or unusable they are, albeit in the name of usability, training or something along those lines. Is there a term ...

product-features product-owner

^-- the term is: Hating yourself more with every line of code you write

psr

11:34 PM

@JimmyHoffa And the term is: Tuesday.

rolfl

I nominate Retrograde

psr

11:52 PM

Actually music answered it

6

A: Is this a recognised musical device...?

As Bob mentions, this can be described as a descending chromatic bass line. If descending a fourth, from tonic to dominant, this can also be called a "Lament Bass". As a technique, it dates back at least to the early Baroque Era (famously used in Dido's Lament, that character's dying aria from He...

A "Lament Bass"

(In my head this is an awesome metaphor)

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