@amWhy: asking PSQs is a minor problem and is usually handled by closing the PSQs. The fact that PSQ askers rarely challenge the closing or their question is an evidence that asking PSQs is a minor problem. Other side of the same story is the that PSQ answerers often challenge the closing/deletion of questions they answered. So the stake of the answerer is much higher than that of the asker. So yes answering PSQs is the main divide between users.
As for mods my perception is that most of them are aligned with the CURED philosophy. Those who disagree are in minority and I have seen them express their views in this chatroom. I will discuss that next
One idea is that if the question is at an advanced level (grad school) then the context is not important and the asker is not here to get homework done. I believe this is true but if we prod them a little such askers usually respond with context.
Since there is not too much competition for answering when the question is at advanced level, you get the time to engage with asker and get feedback and context from them. There is simply no need to act like FGITW and post your answer quickly.
Another concern is that CURED people go overboard with their actions or comments. This is also true (but it is not frequent) and we need to improve ourselves on this front.
Also request all mods to visit some chatroom (not CURED nnecessarily, but say math mod office) on regular basis so that there can be more discussion on topics where we diverge.
I have a different opinion of PSQs. Something should be judged on whether it is a PPSQ based on the question statement. Rather than judge questions for lack on context we should judge whether their question statements are worthy of being in our repository. After all, a repository of questions and answers should have context removed from posts in order to make them as impersonal and unrelated to any specific user as possible. The context of user X did doesn’t belong in a repository.
Granted if we do that we get people cheating on homework so no matter what we can’t win. I feel like we need to just exclude undergraduate questions and say “no more, you’re no longer on topic”, as that would eliminate the problem... but it would also kill the site.
Why are these problems so difficult? There has to be an easy simple solution that just gets rid of the PSQs and then we can move on from the whole debacle.
One thing I will point out is that I see both sides claiming malice from users, either in claiming people deliberately answer PSQs for cheap rep or in claiming that people close and delete PSQs to target high rep users. Both sides should stop finger pointing. Those who answer PSQs likely follow the same mentality I do. My mentality is that if I find a post I am capable of answering I am thereby obligated to answer that question and will not leave that page until an answer is provided.
It is my opinion that if you can answer a question then you’re obligated to do so. To not do so and then answer a different question means you might get in trouble for discriminating between posts since you aren’t treating them equally.
Anyway, can someone fix the PSQ issue already? It’s been years and that whole thing is still ongoing.
@user64742: Q&A without any context in posts is more like a solution manual. I would rarely try to read something boring like that. I have visited aops site also few times. It's as boring as it can be. It relies just on the challenge factor. My motivation here is not to challenge myself but rather to learn and let others learn.
The same goes for similar kind of crappy math textbooks in school which just provide many solved examples and a large number of similar questions for the reader. The learning process is enjoyable when there is some sort of dialogue/discussion or even a sense of being together between book author and its reader.
Evn undergrad texts with list of theorems and proofs is utterly boring. Rudin is one such example.
@user64742 I am sorry, but here I beg to differ. You can discriminate between posts if there is no reason to prefer one over the other other than mere personal prejudice. If I can answer two questions, one which is a PSQ and the other where there is interest in editing the post, then this is not a personal prejudice that I would prefer to answer the question that is written clearly, and where I am likely to have understood the situation better, where I can better direct my efforts.
@user64742 You are not obligated to answer questions whose answers you know but whose OPs have shown no efforts to explain and have no interest apart from seeing them answered. Please explain in more detail why you feel this obligation. It may come from an inner sense of unfulfillment if you do not do someone's bidding when you can, and that is a very relatable feeling.
But you know what, sometimes a couple of things can happen : of course we wish to do things to help others , but sometimes merely answering questions isn't the best way to do it. If I were someone online and a person came to me saying : "do my exam in real analysis, here are five questions" then will we do it? Is it more helpfulto complete someone's exam for them, or is it better that they don't do well, get dismayed but also find an inner strength and bounce back better?
@user64742 There is a better solution - almost all of the PSQs are (abstract) dupes, and the process of closing them as such helps greatly to organize the site. improve prior answers, etc. That's what I do in my tags. It's much more rewarding (both locally and globally) then closing as a PSQ.
The other thing that can happen, is that you can lower the self-respect that you hold for yourself, by answering any question that comes to you, merely because you are obliged to do so. If your parents ask you to do something, if your teacher asks you to do something, then perhaps a sense of obligation may be present. But if such a sense is present even for a person who you meet across a screen for the first time, and who is treating you like a "tell-me-answer" machine, then I think
@user64742 This is still ongoing because too many people are passive watchers of the issue and don't act. If people were vocal in their expression, stood up against the practice in the comments, downvoted/closed/deleted PSQs and answers to them, then we can move things forward.
@user64742 The reason why removal of PSQs is not as simple a task as it looks is because people have their own idea (like you would and I would) of what it means for a question to qualify on the site. The site rules are present, of course, but like any rule book it does leave space for interpretation, and I think that people aren't often ready to interpret and would prefer to take an extreme view rather than interpret. It's the easy way out.
As you can also see, interpretation of the notion of "context" also seems to differ between us. Indeed, when it comes to mere information and repository building, we may as well not ask for context and go for a QnA format. But no, we also wish to tutor, to guide. We are not stacks of information, we are teachers here. That's the self-respect that we must exude when answering questions. Answering anything that comes to us, we may as well be ATMs dispersing answer books!
And all those users who are answering PSQs may carry sentiments such as "we are answering questions and therefore helping" and "you should not decline anybody that comes to you" and all that, I've got no problem if you treat your answer and questioner with some respect, but honestly, I see answers to these which are throwaways, that are written with no effort, no respect.
It's like a questioner asking for a banana, so you eat the banana and throw the peel at them and say "hey, I gave you something!" If you want examples I will give you all the examples you want , I have over a 100 of them sitting with me, one-line throwaway answers from some high rep users that think they are doing a favour by even providing one line, but know that they will get a little green check mark, a stray up vote or two, reputation is up, done!
And speaking of consensus on the PSQ issue : why , we have TEN moderators, and they apparently do not seem to have a clear message to send to the community regarding PSQs as yet. When ten users among themselves cannot streamline and sort opinions, it is unlikely that a community with over at least 5000 regular users will be able to follow any set guidelines!
@user64742 Read the above, but get others to read it as well. This is what we are facing, and why we are facing it, why this room was created, why all the malice develops, and why the site never seems to move on!
@ParamanandSingh It's true, isn't it? Ten people cannot come to a consensus. What are we expected to do when droves of people descend on the site and then we are suddenly asking them to agree? If the moderators pressed an agenda, we could agree on it, as long as it makes sense with the site rules put in their place.
We should encourage the finding of abstract duplicates for limit questions that don't present effort, like the one above. Approach0 is quite good in this respect.
@XanderHenderson Since you agree, I'm not sure why you say disagreement on PSQ handling seems to stem from disagreement about tutoring versus building a repository. Both of them, done properly, entail firmly stopping PSQs, because PSQs encourage laziness and spoon-feeding and clutter.
@ParamanandSingh I think it isn’t so much opinion based as it is historically based. My reading of it is that it is asking why that formula is considered good. This is an objective question since they ask why Ramanujan considered it good. Either he explained his reasoning or he didn’t. Either way the answer is objective. They then ask if other equations match his criteria. Assuming his criteria is rigorous, then it is objective. If it isn’t rigorous then part of the answer would be stating that.
But I think it is off topic in that historical questions shouldn’t be on topic.
@user64742 No. The question was not about just that one identity and Ramanujan's thinking. It explicitly stated Ramanujan's identity as an example of what the question was supposed to be about. That's why it's opinion-based. If it was merely about the history of that identity, then you would be correct that it is historical and hence for HSM SE rather than Math SE.
@user64742 Ah that's what you thought. Yes, indeed, it's unclear, since we all interpreted the question differently.
@soupless That list looks good. I have given some thought to what 'nice' mathematics might be defined as (objectively up to O(1) discrepancy) in the same manner as Kolmogorov complexity can be used to define complexity, but let's talk about this in another room if you like!
I am very averse to speculative "what if..." questions on math.se, questions which the user provides no context as to why this question is of interest to them. The linked question does reveal the OP is trying to think outside the box. What to others think?
@amWhy Funny, that one, voted to close instantly. I personally think there's no point of the comments that are coming in because they aren't aiming to make the question specific in any way. However, how can you make such a question specific? The question is far too broad as it stands.
@ParamanandSingh It's okay, I probably should just accept the fact that I will always be this way. Also, I installed the Stack Exchange app (the abandoned app) for me to get notifications
@TeresaLisbon Well, if it was that way, what will happen? Nothing, as math is objective, right? Or am I wrong?
@soupless I'm not sure if it is not a useful question, I'm sure someone might find it useful. But not on MSE, it's too broad for that. If it was that way , then I don't think much changes at all.
@amWhy: for that particular "what if" question there should be some more development by the asker like new definitions and some key results or ideas based on them. Please don't ask us to speculate on your behalf.
I will say I am mildly biased though in that I am intrigued in knowing of what sort of geometry negating the 4th postulate (the right angle one) yields. However, the question as written isn’t at all making it clear if that’s what they are asking and it sounds ludicrous.
@amWhy that I am not as concerned about since if the asker asked clearly “what is the geometry we obtain when negating the 4th postulate”, there wouldn’t necessarily be need to provide “motivation”. An attempt, perhaps, but such questions to me fall into a category of “asking what some field of math is” or “what category of math does X fall into”, and shouldn’t really need motivation since if it hasn’t been studied yet, that’s the answer. To me the appropriate close is “unclear”.
Granted active contest questions should be deleted as off-topic, don’t cheat. I’m just not sure if past competition questions are worth adding via generic questions for the purpose of “repository building”.
@TeresaLisbon Your last three delete requests were not/are not open for deletion. If you want users to downvote the post, include that information in your request; else we we need to wait several days before being able to actually delete.
@amWhy Oh yes , sorry. I should have included it. All of them need to be downvoted. Just forgot to do this today, I remember the DND (downvote and delete) a few days back. I'll keep it in mind, I still think I have about 4 of C and D left.
PSQ the user says they are out of ideas, then why on Earth is nobody asking for what those ideas are in the comments?
Are we teaching , or are we supplying?
Seven users have answered 54 questions between themselves today. I can't post all the C and D here as I'm running out, but I'll tell you how many of those were bad.
There seem to be folk who don't see any problem with providing a complete answer to a homework exercise, and explain their actions by asserting that they are "helping the asker".
@soupless A professional mathematician is one who engages with mathematics as a profession. Graduate students, faculty in mathematics departments, and researchers working in the public or private sector all qualify.
@XanderHenderson Nor is it tolerated by any conscientious tutor that a student show up with no effort whatsoever on their homework, nor notes about a section in the text confused them, and why they found it confusing!
@amWhy Yes, but you have seen people on this site assert that they are "helping the asker" when the provide a complete solution. I think that this is turning into a semantic debate---if you would prefer a different word, replace "tutor" with something that is more apt.
E.g. there is a debate about whether the goal of this site is to create a repository, or to provide individualized "help".
Note that I am not endorsing this latter point of view, only attempting to understand and/or explain it.
@XanderHenderson If there is, then the moderators please talk among yourselves and take a stand. That's all I ask for. Take a stand. I see some moderator has come here recently and been a little at odds with what is going on, I don't mind that but what surprised me was that a moderator was quite unaware about the events in a vital part of the site.
@TeresaLisbon The moderators are not unified, and the moderators are not in charge, anyway. We are supposed to enact the will of the community, not dictate it.
@XanderHenderson The non-interference of moderators in our matters is , in some sense, a dictation of their will. Not withstanding an occurence of a post of a moderator being undeleted and remaining undebated here, pretty much. It seems the moderators are not available for comment, and by the day it feels that they are running out of answers to give us. I would like to ask them to come out and voice their problems.
@XanderHenderson Cop-out, @Xander. And you know very well that some, many, voices have long been categorically ignored by certain "should have retired by now" mods.
Here's an answer to a PSQ. Would you say that it is "helping the asker"? It's a hint, a one-liner , with not much more information other than : try it, you will get it.
I really do not understand why I am being attacked here, but I am not going to continue to engage in a conversation which largely seems to consist of folk questioning my motivations and/or sincerity. Have a nice day.
@amWhy Thank you for vehemently rejecting the stance that the asker could be helped by someone spoonfeeding them answers, and inserting one-line answers to PSQs in the name of "oh, I'm helping the asker, you know, by giving them answers!" The stance is also hidden beneath a LARGE layer of incentive. A word that begins with R.
@Xander You are needed here, as one particular has has flagged excessively my posts. And another site's mod is requesting a math.se moderator come here.
It's HIGH time that we also talk about how much reputation motivates the stance "I'm helping a user out by answering their PSQ"? Is that truly earned reputation? I think that answering such questions with one-liners and mini-hints should not be a reflection of community trust.
@amWhy The number was 15 out of 46 (54 was an error earlier, it was actually 46). I just realized, that the whole argument that centers around "I'm helping the user by answering their PSQ" is based on the premise that PSQs are even allowed on the site. The fact that one answers these then encourages others to post the same kind of not acceptable questions on the site. So the side-effect of such a mentality is dangerous.
And by dangerous, it is not from a "us vs them" point of view, but from a "site rules vs them" point of view. So even if someone says their behaviour or logic is not to be faulted, that it encourages PSQs to come in and be part of the site further, is to be faulted. The attitude is the cause for the effect that the site suffers from.
Indeed. And as mods flip flop their respective ways on this site, based on mod peer pressure, that leaves all the more work for us. Dang! Sleep well, dear friend!
@XanderHenderson These last two sentences, and the comment below it, make much more sense to me now. I think most of us here were challenging that point of view, and I'm sorry if we did so in a way that seemed like we were challenging you. I just have seen and studied, first hand, how people can justify what they do and why they do it, when going as far as bottom-line evil. And I'm not speaking of you. Just that Robin hoods and a person who robs a bank and yields 100,000 dollars, and pays
20 people $5 each, and says they did so to help others, is a bit suspect. Any way, I just want to say, I am sorry, because I had not read the last sentence of the message I linked to, nor the one beneath it.
@XanderHenderson but in who they elect the community expresses its opinion. The moderators elections are the events where something resembling an actual vote happens. The will of the community over the last 5+ years was pretty consistent. Lets enact it.
