The Junk Drawer - 2015-01-02 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

also, it's posted as an answer to "Should we be downvoting conventional answers?"

@Shokhet yes, and if the best solution to a problem is not a lifehack, then that indicates it may not be a lifehack problem. But if the question is a lifehack question and the best answer is nonetheless “conventional” (whatever that means — we've found that it's extremely subjective), that should not count against the answer.

There are objective reasons why an answer would be bad on Lifehacks, for example if it requires a tool that hardly anyone has available, or if it requires expensive material. But “it's conventional” isn't one.

@Gilles In other words, something like your two answers on this site?

Partly because what's conventional to one person is news to another, and partly because we'd end up excluding the best answer sometimes.

@Shokhet I have no idea which parts of my answers count as conventional and which parts aren't.

I'm pretty sure different people will have different opinions on that.

@Gilles "Peel 'n' Seel" envelopes are the only ones I've ever used in my house

Which parts do you think are conventional?

12:04 AM

22 secs ago, by Shokhet

@Gilles "Peel 'n' Seel" envelopes are the only ones I've ever used in my house

@Shokhet they're the only ones I buy, and AFAIR they aren't more expensive than other kinds (but given how small a part of my budgets envelopes are, I didn't really pay attention)

@Gilles I don't buy the envelopes in my house; my mother does :]

but who knows, presumably there are people who don't know about them (maybe they're differently common in different countries)

65

A: How can I figure out which side of the car the gas hatch is on (without getting out)?

Pretty much every car made in the last couple of decades has a gas hatch indicator arrow right on the dashboard: Just look for the arrow next to the pump icon. I'd seen that little triangle thousands of times and never noticed it until a friend told me it indicates the side the gas cap is on.

that one I had never heard of before reading that answer, but all the same

I downvoted because this isn't a hack; it's an indicator made for this exact purpose... and it only works if you're driving a car that has this arrow. Not all of 'em do. — abby hairboat ♦ Dec 22 '14 at 18:40

^^^^ so far this is generally considered a good answer —

12:07 AM

@Gilles I would agree

apparently, though, abby hairboat doesn't

for whatever that's worth

5 downvotes

that's not much, if this is such a bad answer

that's funny, I actually only see 5

the point is the same, though

@Shokhet ah, I miscounted

np

I don't have enough rep to get the votes breakdown conveniently

12:10 AM

there's a userscript for that; I assumed you had used it

60

Q: "View Vote totals" without 1000 rep

Screenshot About The vote counts are a great tool to determine whether an answer is disputed or not. Unfortunately, not many of us have enough time to join all Stack Exchange websites and get 1000 reputation. This script unlocks the "View Vote counts" feature for those who are not logge...

script chrome-extensions greasemonkey bookmarklet

Such a high proportion of my SE participation is on sites where I can see it without a userscript that I didn't bother to install the userscript

When you gave me that number, I had assumed you'd used the script.

....although, I'm not sure how much we can use votes to determine the quality of an answer -- we're no longer in private beta, and voting is up to the entire network, especially on HNQs like that one

Yes, sure, the upvotes are mostly from HNQ exposure, so I'm not counting those

@Shokhet that means making your own colander to filter the water from noodles is a good lifehack answer whereas suggesting to buy a colander is not

@Gilles Ah, I see, you were counting the downvotes. Got it.

@ZachSaucier okay

I think we'd all agree, though, that telling someone to go buy a product designed for his problem is not a good answer unless it's not well-known

12:14 AM

@Gilles ^^ do you agree?

@ZachSaucier not always

It should be a bad answer to most valid questions, but a blanket bad would force bad answers to some questions

I don't think we can determine whether it's well known or not

@Gilles example?

10

A: How can I eat an apple without getting sticky fingers?

Counterintuitively, corn on the cob holders can be good for this. They dig into the apple directly, rather than a fork which curves and can cause difficulty in angling it right without biting into metal. eBay link to show what I mean

Is buying a corn on the cob holder to eat apples a valid answer?

@Gilles using them is. They're common enough to be a lifehack

Well, I suppose these tools are more common in certain parts of the world, like the US. I'd never heard of them.

But do people really carry one in their pocket when they plan to eat an apple?

12:17 AM

@ZachSaucier I have them in my house; I don't know if everyone has them, though. I agree, they're "common enough"

the main point is that it's creative - it's not the intended purpose

@Gilles No, but I have them in my house

whether it is conventional or not is irrelevant because it's impossible to determine for sure

@ZachSaucier that has nothing to do with buying a tool

we're not suggesting to buy a tool

12:18 AM

and, again, I don't understand why creativity matters

@ZachSaucier yes, you are

we're suggesting to use things that might be around the house

@ZachSaucier oh, ok

@ZachSaucier I agree

again, I've never heard of those things

I didn't realize they were household items

@Gilles it matters because that's what lifehacks are

12:18 AM

they look like specialty/novelty tools to me

@ZachSaucier I disagree

what's a lifehack to you then?

@Gilles I have them, I know that a bunch of other people have them

what definition are you using?

@ZachSaucier I think the Wikipedia definition is a good one. Plus it's a basis that we can all share.

Life hacking refers to any trick, shortcut, skill, or novelty method that increases productivity and efficiency, in all walks of life. It is arguably a modern appropriation of a gordian knot - in other words, anything that solves an everyday problem in an inspired, ingenious manner. Coined in the 1980s in hacker culture, the term became popularized in the blogosphere and is primarily used by computer experts who suffer from information overload or those with a playful curiosity in the ways they can accelerate their workflow in ways other than programming. The terms hack, hacking, and hacker have...

> any trick, shortcut, skill, or novelty method that increases productivity and efficiency, in all walks of life

> anything that solves an everyday problem in an inspired, ingenious manner

how do you define a "trick"?

12:20 AM

it doesn't have to be creative

it's something that's a not-so-obvious solution to a problem -- I think creative is a good shorthand for that quality

@ZachSaucier trick would involve doing something in a way that isn't generally expected, that's more or less the same thing as unconventional

but not all lifehacks are tricks

@Gilles that's what we're suggesting, just using the term "creative"

@ZachSaucier What part of “not all lifehacks are tricks” don't you understand?

If something isn't creative, that doesn't mean it isn't a lifehack

I think you're misunderstanding Wikipedia's definition

ignore the use of the term creative

> anything that solves an everyday problem in an inspired, ingenious manner

12:22 AM

@ZachSaucier I don't think he is, but I think you might be -- "trick" isn't the only part of that definition

For what its worth, sometimes the conventional answer is more sensible/practical than the well know hack. Take lifehacks.stackexchange.com/questions/2129/… for instance.

@Gilles That onebox is way too big. That shouldn't be allowed in chat

I answered the way that I did because the clothespin trick is a little over played, yet I upvoted the cardboard trick because it had a wider application and in some instances would be more practical. Just trying to say that it looks like we're trying to define black and white when all we have is gray.

→ 1 message moved to Trash

@apaul34208 That link goes to a question. Did you link to a deleted answer?

12:24 AM

something that is "inspired and ingenious" means that it's not the way that you'd expect it to be, no?

@ZachSaucier no

poor phrasing, but I hope you understand what I'm asking

@Shokhet Linked to the question referring to three different answers there.

@apaul34208 Got it. Thanks

@Gilles how not?

12:25 AM

Hell, my job is (partly) to be an architect — you could say that doing things in an “inspired and ingenious way” is part of my job description. But “not the way that you'd expect it to be” is absolutely not part of it.

I see your point but I disagree

“Inspired and ingenious” implies that you don't have to follow conventional methods. It doesn't mean that conventional methods are forbidden.

by that definition anything we think of is inspired

lifehacks encompass everything that make us more efficient

@ZachSaucier that's too broad

a lifehack has to be cheap

as in not costing a lot of money, not requiring a lot of time to carry out, etc.

Hi all

What's up?

12:28 AM

@J.Musser Hiya

Ah, some discussion.

Fruitful?

@J.Musser no

:(

lol

6 vs half dozen :)

12:29 AM

we're disagreeing on the meaning of the word or

ah.

@Gilles only you were discussing that

@Gilles I think you're on to something here.....this is a good line of reasoning, make it a little more wordy and you can put this up on Meta. @ZachSaucier can DV, and we'll all discuss it there.

@Shokhet I already have

Find a dictionary and agree with the definition in that

12:29 AM

@Shokhet talking about it here is the best way

@J.Musser I did...

long comment threads are bad

@J.Musser lol

@ZachSaucier yes.

Especially when it's meta-type discussion.

@Gilles I think I'll have to reread it, because I don't remember seeing this in your answer

12:30 AM

@Gilles So your defintion of a lifehack then is: "Anything cheap that makes our lives more efficient" ?

> The following are valid reasons to downvote:

* It requires expensive materials or devices.
* It requires objects that one would not ordinarily have at hand.
* It requires a lot of time to carry out.

@ZachSaucier there's room for quibbling but that's a good summary

@Gilles Sometimes I read things too quickly. This was probably one of those times

@ZachSaucier This sounds okay. Is that definition problematic?

I'm not fully against something like it, it's just quite broad - could lead to a catch all

in fact it does

@Gilles What about spackle? It's cheap and effective, but is also a product designed for the problem.

> If you're going to ask how to cover a nail hole effectively, you had better specify why spackle will not work for you. If you're simply asking how to lose weight, or change a tire; that's not a life hack.

yep

12:36 AM

~ Robert Cartaino

in an accepted Meta answer, +12/-0

As much as I'd like to go along with Gilles' definition I can't for that reason

it will become a catch all

@Shokhet Spackle alone would be a bad answer, because as the question indicates you need to paint over it afterwards. But the answer doesn't just say spackle, it says “spackle and paint over it”. Which still is bad answer, because if you paint just that part, you're bound to paint it a different color which will look ugly.

so this answer is bad not because it isn't a lifehack, but because it produces a poor result

The problem is with the question itself

lol

This isn't a lifehack question

What about spackle as described in this answer?

12:39 AM

The aim isn't just to cover a hole quickly, but to avoid paying $hundreds or thousands in fees when leaving a rental. You need to do a decent job for that.

@Gilles that could be....but then we find ourselves going in circles; defining questions by their answers, and defining answers by questions

@ZachSaucier you need to man up and close questions

Oh shoot, time flies....I'll have to leave in a few minutes

(No sexism intended, English is just like that. Read “person up” if you speak 25th century English.)

Contrary to @Gilles' opinion, I think this was a fruitful discussion....but we're not done yet

12:43 AM

@Gilles how's that?

@ZachSaucier if a question calls for an answer that requires technically involved answers, or that requires doing a clean job, then it isn't a lifehack question

that's not true under my definition

the “hide a nail hole to get my deposit back” question requires doing a clean job because of the high monetary stake, so it isn't a lifehack question.

all questions are implicitly seeking lifehack answers (unless the questions ask otherwise)

therefore answers are the ones that should be weighed more harshly currently, not questions

@ZachSaucier But that question DOES NOT call for lifehack answers. Therein lies the problem.

The stated objective is contradictory with calling for a hack.

12:45 AM

@Gilles that's a terrible reason to close a question

@Gilles it implicitly does

@ZachSaucier on the contrary, it's called “off-topic”

@Gilles IOW, "cheap, quick and dirty"?

how many times must I say it?

@ZachSaucier You can say it as many times as you like. That won't make it true.

@Shokhet dirty is optional. Cheap and quick, yes.

if you're not willing to even view things from a different viewpoint then there is no reason for us to be discussing with you

12:47 AM

@ZachSaucier and now you're starting with the personal attacks

it's statement of fact

@Gilles You excluded "clean job," earlier

nothing personal at all

if you are unwilling to even imagine what we're suggesting then it's of no value to the discussion

@Shokhet A lifehack question doesn't require a clean job. But if an answer happens to do a clean job, that doesn't in itself make the answer a bad one.

@ZachSaucier I do. I disagree with you.

@Gilles Got it.

@ZachSaucier , I don't recall your coming up with a good counterpoint to @Gilles'

12:49 AM

to which ones?

4 mins ago, by Gilles

the “hide a nail hole to get my deposit back” question requires doing a clean job because of the high monetary stake, so it isn't a lifehack question.

3 mins ago, by Zach Saucier

@Gilles that's a terrible reason to close a question

for example

@ZachSaucier A major unresolved contradiction in your viewpoint is that you say you don't want the site to be a catch-all, but then you refuse closing questions because they aren't calling for lifehacks.

And I don't mean the question has to say “oh hey by the way gimme a lifehack”. I mean the requirements in the question should be compatible with hackish answers.

if it's made obvious they aren't seeking a lifehack then of course they'd be closed

otherwise only lifehack solutions should be provided

To give a caricatural example, “how do I send a rocket to the Moon?” would not be a lifehack question.

agreed

12:51 AM

the spackle question is a less extreme example of a non-lifehack question.

that doesn't require household goods

as an outsider looking in, for what it's worth, I can not tell what is or not on topic here at all

@SabreTooth That's because it's still under discussion, I think

@Gilles that question doesn't seek to "make one's physical life more efficient". Closed.

@Gilles @ZachSaucier It can't be solved cheaply, or without a lot of time and effort. I think that comes first

12:53 AM

@ZachSaucier that's a bit silly — we're discussing the hack part, not the life part

but ok, “how do I commute between the US and Asia without flying?”

@Shokhet then why would a visitor even bother joining nd contributing when not even the scope has consensus

I've been under the impression I'm talking about lifehacks here

given that's what the site is about

@SabreTooth I don't think we should have been put into public beta so quickly; I think you're correct

@Shokhet that I can agree with

@Gilles if they don't provide how the internet or a phone doesn't work, i.e. "when a more standard approach (as defined by that area's experts) or a product is either unavailable or undesirable" it's closed.

12:54 AM

but now we're in public beta, we need to decide what is what, and hopefully quickly

@ZachSaucier how can I move my body over the Internet or over a phone???

@Shokhet a 3rd week in private would have been very beneficial - you guys were making god progress in defining the scope, then public happened and it seems to be going backwards

@Gilles marked as spam IMO

obviously a troll question

@ZachSaucier dafuq?

that's what I thought when looking at the question

12:56 AM

@SabreTooth It is what it is....it doesn't have to be good, what it is

any more @Gilles?

@Shokhet yup, and somewhat confusing for a new member etc... takes too much time to try and figure it out, and I (for one) do not have time, (reason why I deleted)

@SabreTooth yet you hang around chats all day... ?

@SabreTooth I didn't realize you had deleted your account. That's a bit much.....

@ZachSaucier any more what?

12:59 AM

why not wait it out?

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Jan '152

The Junk Drawer

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