Mathematics 2014 Moderator Election

columbus8myhw

00:53

Is this where they're selling bagels?

Pedro Tamaroff

@Behaviour Hello Mr.

I think I know you.

Behaviour

There are days when I think so, too.

Pedro Tamaroff

@Behaviour That's quite poetic. But really, didn't you use to have an xkcd avatar?

Behaviour

Back in the good ol' days

Pedro Tamaroff

@Behaviour Hehehehe.

Although I share your point of view in many matters concerning the site, that wasn't the best approach to matters, eh? ;)

Behaviour

01:03

It's the worst one, except all the others.

mixedmath

01:44

@ArthurFischer It's certainly more fun that way

Jack D'Aurizio

Hi everybody. I would like to make public my self-nomination. What do you think about it?

Integrator

04:54

@Behaviour Why don't you nominate yourself?

Behaviour

05:13

I should put the answer into a FAQ of some sort, considering how often it's asked in various chatrooms... I don't need mod tools, I can do a lot as a regular user. Some others agree:

in Mathematics, 9 hours ago, by Mike Miller

I wonder who I would nominate for moderator. I would nominate the user formerly known as Raff, but I think he's probably more effective as a regular user.

2

Jorge Fernández

can we nominate other people?

Arthur Fischer

@JorgeFernández Officially, no. Though this thread has been opened up on meta to unofficially nominate others.

The reason for this, IIRC, is that in the past it was possible to nominate others in SO elections, but this resulted in a number of nominees who weren't actually interested.

Jorge Fernández

How long does the moderator status last?

Mike Miller

One is a moderator until they decide to not be a moderator.

Arthur Fischer

@JorgeFernández Until they quit or are "forcibly" removed.

Jorge Fernández

05:21

I see, thank you

Arthur Fischer

I'm not certain if there's a case when egregious moderator actions have ever lead to the dismissal of a moderator (throughout all of SE), but it is a possibility.

Mike Miller

Has a moderator in the history of the stackexchange network been forcibly removed?

Arthur Fischer

@MikeMiller Depends on what is meant by forcibly. As I said above, I cannot think of a case where egregious moderator action (or user coup) has lead to the dismissal of a moderator. But moderators have been removed for prolonged inactivity.

(There is a current situation on an SE site where a user revolution was close to becoming a reality, but the SE team has stood by the current moderators there.)

Behaviour

Puzzling, I suppose, aka "the weird one".

@MikeMiller Somewhat related, from the history of this site:

Not anymore, @YACP... This has only happened a couple of times, but that's enough: moderator-deletion is now restricted to low-rep accounts, all other deletions must go through us. I should also note that anyone doing this capriciously would not be a mod for very long - restoring accounts like this is a serious pain the rear. — Shog9 ♦ May 12 '13 at 21:30

Mike Miller

@ArthurF I was interested in the coup, rather than the inactivity.

Arthur Fischer

05:34

@Behaviour Of course. (Though the site is about as weird as PP&CG, IMHO. PP&CG just has better quality control, and puzzling wasn't originally set out as a site for puzzles/riddles.)

@MikeMiller I'm going to be keeping a close eye on you.....

Mike Miller

@ArthurFischer I wouldn't have it any other way.

Martin Sleziak

07:43

I thought about posting to the question a question about approach to casting binding votes.

But it is possible that the mods already have some system to cast a binding votes in a way as a regular users. (Maybe the discuss this in private moderators room, or post comments instead of voting. If another mod sees that they are already enough "suggestion to vote" from mods, they cast the binding vote.)

So before asking such a question I wanted to ask whether the mods already have such system. (That would render my question completely useless.)

I think I recall having a short discussion with one of the mods in chat about binding votes. But I cannot find it now.

Oh I found it. It was a very short exchange which starts here:

in Mathematics, Aug 30 at 11:43, by Martin Sleziak

I am not sure to which extent the users are against unilateral closures by mods. I think I remember some discussion about mods posting their votes in comments, and if there are enough of them, then they use mod powers.

Basically, the response is summarized here:

in Mathematics, Aug 30 at 11:50, by robjohn

@MartinSleziak In "clear" cases, or spam, we do still do act unilaterally, but get posts in meta if "clear" is not clear enough.

Arthur Fischer

@MartinSleziak There's no official (or even unofficial) system in place, and each of us acts in ways they are comfortable with.

Personally, if I strongly feel that something should be closed, I'll close it without considering what numbered vote I am (mainly these questions which are clearly too broad, or are clearly primarily opinion-based, or are obvious duplicates). Similarly, if I strongly feel that a question should be reopened, I'll do so. In the more borderline cases I try to resign myself to being the 5th (last) vote.

I have no trouble mod-deleting nonsense and other non-answers (even link-only answers, since those aren't really answers, but I generally give a warning before nixing those), but won't touch simply incorrect answers with a mod-deletion.

For real spam and offensive stuff, it would be a waste for me to wait to be the 6th flag.

Martin Sleziak

07:59

Thanks for the answer @ArthurFischer

robjohn

@ArthurFischer There is that "clear" word again :-)

Arthur Fischer

@robjohn Obviously. ;-)

robjohn

@MartinSleziak: the moderator's binding vote keeps me from voting on some things that I would like to vote on, but that is just the cost of doing business. Instead, I will comment; it's the next best thing to voting.

Martin Sleziak

I see.

IIRC the discussion I linked to was about question where I did not entirely agree about another question being a duplicate, which was why I did not like the binding vote. But it is never going to happen that all users are going agree.

But clearly, I did not feel strongly enough about that to make a post in a reopen thread.

Arthur Fischer

08:23

@MartinSleziak Closings can always be undone; fairly easily in the grand scheme of things. Especially with the reopen queue. The amount of brouhaha (often including demands for resignation) over a moderator closure generally far exceeds the actual harm done.

(Of course, I'm just a ~~Nazi~~ mod saying this, so am somewhat biased.)

Martin Sleziak

I definitely do not request resignation. Basically all I did was ping robjohn in the chat about that back than.

I don't think this qualifies as too much brouhaha/kerfuffle/whatever you call it.

Behaviour

> get posts in meta if "clear" is not clear enough. [quoting robjohn]

Arthur Fischer

There have been such statements made in the past. I'm not saying that you have made them (and actually don't think you would). And I'm talking about the way these generally trend, and not a specific instance.

Behaviour

I'd say this comes with territory. I get my share of less-than-loving meta posts, too.

Martin Sleziak

You certainly do. (Is it a hint to make a thread going in the other direction ;-)

Behaviour

08:29

No, not that. I mean that doing what is right is more important than not being criticized / called Nazi / whatever.

Martin Sleziak

I have to say that I disagreed with you on many things when your activity on SE started. And I still would do some thing differently. But I definitely see that you do a lot for the site (it seems that you care about it a lot).

Behaviour

Naturally, "what is right" means different things to many people.

@Shai, as I said, I completely understand the frustration that shoddy tools can cause. That said, please be careful when you seek appreciation: I've closed far, far more questions on Stack Overflow than you, and not once have I ever been thanked for it. Called a Nazi? A pedantic jackass? A blockwart? Yes, in spades. But never thanked. If you're not doing it because you believe strongly that it is a good and right thing to be doing, you're going to find yourself unhappy regardless. — Shog9 ♦ Nov 20 '13 at 16:51

Arthur Fischer

@Behaviour Oh yeah. It took me some time to decide to run last time because I wasn't sure if I wanted to handle "impolite criticisms" that were sure to come. I am glad we have a pretty good support network behind the scenes.

Behaviour

An SE-sponsored rehab for meta-battered moderators? :)

Arthur Fischer

It's more like group therapy.

Integrator

09:04

@Behaviour What makes a good mod? I mean What should I look for? (in nominated candidates)

Venus

09:17

@Integrator Maybe make a ton of downvotes. ^^

Behaviour

@Integrator I think Arthur's answer here is on target:

9

A: What would be "recommended experience" for a person who wants to run for moderator?

I've been giving this some thought for a long time, and I don't know if I would peg anything specific down as "recommended experience". Sure, using flags when appropriate is good (but there's no need to go out and find things that should be flagged; as a moderator these all come to you). Being kn...

Integrator

@Behaviour It's gonna take too much time to read that! Stay here! Don't leave

robjohn

09:34

@Integrator my comment on main sort of paraphrases Arthur's answer

Analysis Incarnate

09:52

vote for ahaan, i saw him on aops he's good

Mike Miller

15:18

It seems to me that a lot of people don't really understand what a moderator is/does (cf. the many nominations, both official and unofficial)...

2

mrf

Yes, the amount of very brief nominations from users with no activity on meta, flagging or review queues is staggering. As I remember it, last time there were very few nominations.

Behaviour

17 hours ago, by Behaviour

@Semiclassical See the history: 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010

Yes, you are right. We got a lot more frivolous nominations this time than ever before.

@AnalysisIncarnate Good at moderating, or at something else?

Mike Miller

15:44

@Behaviour In the trolling thread on meta, quid has expressed a feeling that such frivolous nominations are normal; you might link him the history there. (I am unable to with my phone.)

Behaviour

@MikeMiller quid said it occurred often on the network.

Not here yet, but the site grew quite a bit, so the big city problems appeared here too.

I think we will eventually move in the direction of SO with far stricter requirements for candidates. (Too late to change the rule for this election, of course).

Mike Miller

When you say "far stricter", what, other than the larger reputation requirement, does that entail?

Integrator

in In praise of Math.SE site and its users, Nov 19 at 19:00, by Rafflesia arnoldii

Imagine that Math.SE had the same requirements for moderator nomination as Stack Overflow: 3000 rep and the badges Deputy, Civic Duty, Strunk&White, Convention. Who would be eligible to run then?

Mike Miller

16:00

Thanks.

Integrator

@MikeMiller Is this your first election?

leo

16:50

@NajibIdrissi Sure, but being moderators they can say: "ok community, we have this and this issue, what should we do"? Yeah, I know any user can do it as well, but if moderators do it something will be done afterwards, instead of almost nothing just like right now.

Behaviour

17:02

@leo I can offer a long and confusing cautionary tale from another SE site, if you are interested. (Their issues themselves are not on-topic in this room, but the thread is an example of how a top-down effort can backfire.)

I can also offer a quote from a Community Manager who has dealt with issues of all kinds, shapes and sizes around the Network...

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, Aug 4 at 17:21, by Shog9

A lesson hard-learned during my time with SE has been that it is near-impossible to solve large behavioral problems by attacking them head-on. You have to convince a few people that there's a better way, and they'll do the same for a few more, and eventually you have enough believers to actually make a dent in it.

Analysis Incarnate

17:16

@Behaviour modding. He's been mod on aops for years, he's highly experienced.

Behaviour

Good to hear.

Martin Sleziak

17:28

@AnalysisIncarnate He is 15 years old and he's been mod on AoPS for years? At what age did he start...?

Mike Miller

@Integrator This is first Math.SE election I have actively participated in. It is not the first MSE election I have observed, nor the first SE election I've participated in.

leo

@Behaviour What are you waiting for to nominate yourself? :-)

Mike Miller

Is it possible to have the many off-topic comments on nominations be deleted?

@leo Can you clarify what you mean in your comment on Pedro's nomination?

leo

@MikeMiller He's usually rude with some people for no other (apparent) reason that he dislikes them

Mike Miller

I find it difficult to read that from your comment; would you mind leaving one on the nomination page with more detail?

leo

17:44

@MikeMiller How not? Someone pointed him that a language is subset of another. He responded rude. That can be read in the transcript, that's the purpose of the link there

Mike Miller

Ah, I didn't notice the blue-link.

leo

Regarding the off topic comments, maybe @GraceNote can do something about.

@MikeMiller For the record here, here it is

Behaviour

18:07

@leo sigh... :)

Alizter

@Behaviour So are you running for mod or not?

;)

Behaviour

I know, I'll change the name to Not running for a mod, stop asking.

leo

@Behaviour lol

But if you can do a lot as normal user imagine yourself with mod powers

Venus

Heave a sigh of relief

^^

Mike Miller

@leo Having mod powers also, in some sense, restricts your powers. In particular, if you find the ability to close vote helpful as a user who wants to maintain the site, you have to give it up as a moderator (as the community generally agrees that moderators should not unilaterally close questions).

Behaviour

18:13

I think that particular tradition is also something that should be left in the past (eventually). When users disagree with mod closure, they can reopen -- no big deal.

Alizter

@Behaviour Tell us why you don't want to be a mod and I will star it.

Behaviour

I appreciate the thought, but let's not. I'm not the only active user who does not want to be a mod, no need for special notice.

2

Alizter

18:33

A small fee of around 100 rep maybe a good idea for nominees. That way joke applications and low rep users are mostly filtered out and only really serious users are willing.

Venus

@Alizter But they become moderators for free, why must they pay to nominate theirself?

Alizter

@Venus There is no payment. The beauty of the system is that if a user is mature enough to recognise that 100 rep essentially does not mean that much. If they think 100 rep means a lot then they should be reconsidering their position for moderator anyway.

That is an early test of the criteria "Are you willing to sacrifice your own to help the community?".

Behaviour

18:54

Apparently, some nominations got removed, because I see 16 now, and a couple of them are new.

JohnD

What I wanna know is which candidates are soliciting bribes and how much power and corrupt influence my vote can bring. This is, after all, politics! :-D

Venus

@Alizter Instead of 100 rep, I think the most logical requirement to nominate yourself as a mod is your track records on mse like how much review you did or how much helpful flags you have been raised and so on.

Alizter

@Venus Sacrificing rep is like sacrificing time. Sacrificing time is exactly what moderators do.

Venus

For the real pranksters, 100 rep means nothing

Alizter

@Venus that is why I said most.

Grace Note

18:58

@leo What's up?

Venus

@Alizter But reviewing and raising helpful flags are also sacrificing time.

Behaviour

@Alizter I'd rather go straight for sacrificing time, then, instead of using rep as proxy. You know: editing the posts by others, reviewing in the queues, flagging, etc. There are users who gather substantial rep while doing nothing but posting; they would not be stopped by a rep fee.

Venus

@Alizter Let us take Annastasiya as an example, she has lots of reps, she always having fun around here, so spending 100 or even 1000 rep will not stop her playing around.

Alizter

@Venus nowhere did I say that 100 rep was a deciding factor for being a mod. It is only a precautionary measure taken during application. If a user is that dedicated to submit their low quality contribution then let them but what I am trying to get at is that the majority of low quality submissions could be avoided.

Venus

@Alizter Assuming Annastasiya is trolling us, so a rep fee will be useless to be applied here.

@Alizter How did you come with conclusion "majority of low quality submissions"?

Alizter

19:13

@Venus Yes. Annatasiya is not the majority.

@Venus Just look at the other submissions

most of the bad ones have been removed now but its just an idea

ideas are meant to be developed.

This is not a final draft.

Venus

@Alizter Chillax bro, we are discussing here, not arguing each other ^^

Alizter

Did I sound angry? Oh sorry lol :P

Venus

I think the best standard for nominating is editing, reviewing, flagging, closing etc. Not rep, IMHO

@Alizter No, just in case :D

@Alizter I see it. In my opinion, the best candidates so far are Sanath, Ahaan & Pedro

Based on their contributions

Alizter

Actually Pedro is a maybe. And I am not sure about the others.

We will see the final list soon anyway.

Venus

@Alizter I'm not sure about Pedro anyway

But I am not in the position to judge anyone else here. Just saying opinions

@Alizter As Ahaan has said, "May the best candidate win!" ^^

Behaviour

20:17

Don't overlook the page More Information about the candidates, it gives more details in a more readable form than the nomination page.

(Not to mention that it omits the comments posted under nominations; this reduces clutter.)

Grace Note

If there are off-topic comments on the nominations, I can help clean some up.

Behaviour

@GraceNote this and this nominations are cluttered by comments that don't have to be there, imo.

I don't suppose the nomination pages are meant for everyone to post "+1, you got my vote" as a comment.

Grace Note

It really isn't, no.

@Behaviour On Pedro's nomination, busting down everything but leo's comment and Pedro's response seems fair, yeh?

Behaviour

20:35

Yes, seems so.

Grace Note

Done. As for Kasper's... well that'll be a different thing to be looking at.

Behaviour

Kasper's nomination itself is really a meta post. Not sure it can be migrated.

Grace Note

Can't migrate it, no.

Mike Miller

Perhaps give him fair warning to make it a meta post and then delete it?

Alizter

21:09

@Behaviour I posted a useless comment

sorry guys

Behaviour

... and then you did it again!

just now :)

robjohn

@Behaviour Who knows how they will really vote? It seems like noise, but a lot of politics is just noise.

Jack D'Aurizio

I was just laughing when I saw that I am not the only one that thinks Annastasiya is trolling us :)

Anyway, I wish to have spent more time on Meta.

I have the feeling that my nomination was just like "a drop in the sea" since I am not so much known by the community.

robjohn