The Factory Floor

Failus Maximus

6:10 AM

anyone knows how is the scouting crewman on sailing ship called

oh, lookout

nvm then

Failus Maximus

3:28 PM

hey everyone

Bellerophon

3:48 PM

@FailusMaximus Greetings.

Failus Maximus

4:00 PM

I finished a chapter of naval exposition

and I feel bad about myself, because it's exposition, which it shouldn't be, yet I like it, which I shouldn't

it's exposition and PoV of Alvei(basically, Elf) admiral of Empire Asuntion, who is about to try to go The Last Stand against the First Imperial Fleet of the Astriad Empire.

AndyD273

exposition can be ok, if done correctly

Failus Maximus

sadly for him, he's utterly outclassed in terms of technology, and is about to have his two fleets completely destroyed

what I really am not sure is, I wanted to use custom units of measurement

AndyD273

Thems the breaks

Instead of metric or imperial?

Failus Maximus

so the format I went for was like this: "Four short cycles (years) ago, the long cycle (64 years) long ceasefire between his Empire Asuntion and the Astriad Empire ended."

"After all, they were Alvei, the superior ones, the immortal ones. While it was truth that they had long since lost immortality, their average lifespan was still over six long cycles (384 years), while Astriads, these barbarians, lived on average less than two long cycles (128 years). None of the Astriads ever managed to live for three long cycles (192 years). Short lived, short tempered and short sighted, Astriads weren’t a threat. Asunt Empire’s victory was inevitable, everyone knew that."

AndyD273

hmm

Failus Maximus

4:06 PM

(this paragraphs narrates what people of Asunt Empire believed at the beginning of war[4 years ago], not his current feeling)

"The carrack he was on, Ayrwen, named after the first daughter of the Emperor, was the flagship of the first fleet. It was a first class carrack, with displacement of five long and a half-longeth crocae (1045 tons), three quarters a longeth fathoms (86.4 m) long."

Also, brackets are in cursive, like this

when copy pasting, it didn't copy so I had to do it manualy

AndyD273

So, if you didn't know the conversion formulas between metric and imperial, would you be able to figure it out from context? I'm curious how to give a reader the general idea of how long something is without having to spell it out...

Bellerophon

I've seen books use measurements I've never seen before and it can be figured out from context, depends how you write it.

Failus Maximus

this isn't imperial units, it's combination of fathoms and special units of measurements

Bellerophon

I suspect that the number of units being introduced at once would make it difficult to work out all the units.

AndyD273

Honestly, thinking about it, for my personal works, I'd probably just use standard measurements, and if anyone asks you how they are using the same measurements as us, I'd just say that it got fixed in translation, because they aren't speaking english either.

Failus Maximus

4:11 PM

I have certain need for local unit

for example, Astriads messure height and length in Ni

Bellerophon

@AndyD273 That tends to be the best approach. If you want a slightly exotic feel you can use imperial and use things like fathoms and cubits and leagues.

Failus Maximus

which is height of The Uniting Emperor (The First Divine Emperor)

except in fact the emperor was 2.1 m tall, and unit got stretched to 2.4 metres over the two centuries

as people were deifying the first emperor

Bellerophon

You can still use normal units most of the time and have that be a a unique thing were the Astriads use a different unit to everyone else. That will also make that unit stand out more. If you use loads of made up units people will just start skipping over them.

AndyD273

Maybe have to build up to it somehow. Have a person talk about how many cycles they are old, to give the reader the idea that a cycle is a year. Then you talk about a long cycle, something like "How old is your mother? Almost a long cycle?" "Yeah, 64 cycles next month"

Bellerophon

You could also introduce it in a way where you define it in universe to help keep the flow of the story e.g "How long do we need to make these beams?" "It says here 2 Ni" "2 Ni, why can't the bloody Astriad use normal measurements, huh?" "Just cut it to 8 feet, it'll be close enough."

James

4:26 PM

@AndyD273 So I used the countdown timer last night. It was kinda hilarious. There were four hour glasses on the wall. When they stepped on a switch in the floor it flipped the hour glasses over. I also included four carved scenes on the walls in the room. Every time they pushed the button it did a stacking 2d6 damage to whoever pushed the button (so 2d6 then 4d6 then 6d6) they pressed it three times to reset the hourglasses before they just said screw it lets see what happens when time runs

out

AndyD273

heh

James

The carvings were driving them crazy...

One of them asked me if there was any time related symbolism in any of them...

the searched for buttons and switches and yeah...the mild panic was satisfying.

They'd be talking and discussing and then I'd say "1/3 of the sand has fallen" talk talk talk 2/3 of the sand has fallen.

bahahahahaha

AndyD273

fun :)

Failus Maximus

right, there's a thing I want to check

since Astriads have light sky cavalry, I needed Asuntion to have some countermeasure, because they were supposed to have won in the past

and I came up with this:

"The Astriad Death Envoys could only be described as light sky cavalry. Empire Asuntion envied this unique force of the Astriad Empire, and obtaining some drake eggs was one of the secondary goals of this war. Drakes – massive birds which could carry soldiers were something the Asunt Empire didn’t have.

During the first war between two empires, they provided great advantage to Astriads, until Asunt Empire established Bird-Keeping Order, which tamed and trained small birds of prey to suicide attack Death Envoys. This prevented Astriad Empire from dominating the sky, and prevented Death Envo…

some ~~basically brainwashing~~ magic is involved in the training

AndyD273

Drakes are ducks, right? So these are horse sized ducks? I kinda hope that at some point you have a person make a comment about a herd of 100 duck size horses...

Failus Maximus

4:38 PM

yeah, don't worry

there's Earther who kinda got there

and kinda became a divine being

accidentally

after running a demon king over in truck

James

@AndyD273 Side note. What freaking thought process led someone to believe that anyone wanted to see a cavalry charge in Star Wars?

Failus Maximus

but for locals, they don't know normal sized duck

as for your question James, the thought process that started with injection of heroin, cigar of weed and handful of shrooms

AndyD273

@FailusMaximus Is it an isekai?

Failus Maximus

well yes, technically, with the difference being that the world connection goes on, and eventually the entirety of Earth will make entree into the story and the magic universe

not literally, it stays in our universe, but eventually earth will establish interdimensional connection

AndyD273

@James you mean on the salt planet? Or was there a different cavalry charge?

James

4:47 PM

Watch the trailer for the new one. Like...space horses...charging...on what appears to be the top of a star destroyer.

AndyD273

@James Honestly, I don't know if I can bring myself to do that. Unless I have a lot of people telling me that it's amazing, I'll probably wait until it hits video.

James

@AndyD273 I have to see it in the theater...but I will definitely not help with the opening box office #s

AndyD273

I didn't watch the ghost busters or black widow or wonder woman trailer because I want to go into them not knowing anything I don't already know. I didn't watch the star wars trailer because I can't make myself care.

Though I may break down and watch the wonder woman trailer because I've heard it's amazing on its own right

James

Ive been told that too...

Failus Maximus

I didn't watch any of new star wars

at all

AndyD273

4:53 PM

Speaking of star wars, the Mandelorian is everything that star wars should be.

Failus Maximus

doing some math around my magic cores I came to a conclusion

early magic cannons need to be like 15-20 m long

AndyD273

That's kinda long

Failus Maximus

upside is they can be mostly made of wood, downside is, the inside needs to be covered in gold/silver

AndyD273

Like, a Spanish galleon was only 48 meters long

Failus Maximus

yeah, the ships are kinda longer in my world

AndyD273

5:00 PM

So one cannon would take up almost half of the total length

Still

Failus Maximus

advantage of shapers (mixed mages) - they're able to link wood together

AndyD273

How much smaller are the non-magic ones?

Failus Maximus

non magic cannons are not that long

AndyD273

So, is iron just not a thing, or does it interfere with magic, or something?

Failus Maximus

like 32 pounder cannons are 1.5-3 m long

iron interferes with magic

AndyD273

5:02 PM

And no bronze either?

Failus Maximus

and to all users of magic, presence of iron is mentally painful

AndyD273

Hmm, I hope that the cannon are breach loaders, because handling the ram rod is going to suck

Failus Maximus

bronze could be a thing

although it depends

tin is more reactive than H2

so it has antimagic effect and is painful to touch

AndyD273

It's fine, magic wood canon are not a big deal, just curious about all the rules that are in place

Failus Maximus

but it's not that much reactive, much less than iron

so it could be acceptable level of discomfort to work with

and in bronze it only is ~ 33%, so magic distruption effect would be almost nullified by copper

AndyD273

5:06 PM

So, a person with a normal hand gun that fires normal steel jacketed rounds is going to be extra dangerous.

Failus Maximus

so bronze likely could be used... I already have it stated that civilizations use copper, silver and gold

yeah, he's going to be quite dangerous

AndyD273

Or you could skip the tin and go with Brass (copper and zinc)

"Cannon were made of bronze and brass since it is easier to cast than iron. Iron takes more heat and closer tolerances in casting. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. It is softer than bronze and is more malleable ( flows under pressure)."

Failus Maximus

nah, bronze is far better, because Zinc is far more reactive (and thus by the laws of my universe far more painful to work with) than tin

AndyD273

What does reactive mean?

Or, reactive to what

Failus Maximus

Bellerophon

5:11 PM

@FailusMaximus If your using H2 as your reference are you using the reactivity series for reduction half potentials?

Failus Maximus

although, this one should be wrong

since as far as I know, Pt is more reactive than Au

or I might be wrong

yeah, Bellerophon

the metals above the hydrogen disrupt magic, metals below hydrogen reflect it, and all metals ignore and isolate it

nvp, Pt seems to be less reactive than gold

I remembered wrong

AndyD273

So I'm trying to picture cleaning the long magic gun. So far I have an archer with a rope tied to an arrow, firing it down the barrel, and then pulling on the rope on the far end to
to draw a big bundle of wet rags down, and having to do that several times...

Failus Maximus

you don't have to clean it

no black powder

no explosion

AndyD273

Oh, right

Why do they need cannon again?

Failus Maximus

it's literally directional "fuck off, solid objects" magic

to direct the magic

AndyD273

5:15 PM

Hmm, k

Failus Maximus

they need thin sheet of magic-reflective metal

so they just put that thin sheet on a wooden body

basically, they have magical core that works in all directions, but they want to focus the effect in one direction

AndyD273

You know, since certain metals disrupt magic, you could have a group of archers with long iron tipped arrows put a lot of them into the flying ships, which would disrupt the flying magic, and keep them grounded.

watered?

Not flying anyway

Failus Maximus

that would be a good idea if the distruption effect wasn't limited to like 10-15 cm away from the metal

AndyD273

But if you had enough of them spread around the hull... Or maybe not :)

Failus Maximus

it could work under certain conditions

but flying ships mostly serve as support ships anyways

they have archers for range advantage, and some fire spitting cannons for sweeping the decks

AndyD273

5:22 PM

Seriously, these people are in a lot of trouble when the connection to earth gets set up. Like, the first aggressive nation with iron shrapnel bombs and carbon steel armored tanks that can ignore all magic is going to decimate everyone

Failus Maximus

well, these people are backwater hill-billies

AndyD273

Are there groups with more modern equivalent technology?

Failus Maximus

central worlds have sucessfully reconstructed and adopted Vainglorian magitech

AndyD273

Gotcha

So something like advanced technology that runs on magic

Failus Maximus

their technology is limited by one important factor

they never developed computing

that's incorrect

they never developed non-mechanical computing*

AndyD273

5:25 PM

I was going to say, considering what can be used for computing, that kinda surprises me

In the book Cryptonomicon they talk about a computer that is based on pipe organ technology and uses sound to do the computing

Failus Maximus

they did develop mechanical computing, but it's more like on level of WW2 Colossus

magitech however has massive advantage over us

which is they have simple tech to access space

attraction-attraction core combination allows localized amplification of gravity

AndyD273

Cryptonomicon Sewer pipe ram description

Failus Maximus

and attraction-repulsion combination allows for antigravity/ gravity inversion

this means that they for example can have a large flying aircraft carrier

AndyD273

You know, it might be hard to develop a modern processor, but there is nothing in a computer chip that would disrupt magic. It's mostly silicon, copper, and gold

Failus Maximus

and not just floating ships like Astriad, real flying ships

AndyD273

5:36 PM

Once you got past the hurdle of making them, then using them should be just fine. Unless I'm missing something else

Failus Maximus

yeah, there's nothing preventing them from really developing that, except that central worlders are not inventing, rather, just reviving the dead technology, and also, they focus too much on magic and too little on non-magic things

Bellerophon

Is it only native metals and alloys that affect magic or do compounds affect it as well?

AndyD273

At least the earthers will be able to contribute something, especially if one can figure out how to marry magic and modern computers

Failus Maximus

compounds do as well, but magic distruptive effect is usually nullified if there's more than 50% of a REFLECTIVE metal in the alloy

such alloy remains uncomfortable to touch, but it becomes manageable too

Earthers have a lot to contribute

but they have a lot to benefit too, honestly

for example, Astriads who are on magitech equivalent of first industrial revolution level of development have, apart from skyships/floating ships landships

which are ships able to float for much less energy, but only for 2-4 m above the surface

they can literally build mega hover tanks

yeah, because of level of weaponry and armour, they'll suck compared to modern tech, but marry that concept with modern tech and 125 mm smoothbore...

AndyD273

@FailusMaximus but only of non-reactive materials, and a normal tank would shred anything made of wood/copper/etc

Considering Carbon is on that list, above hydrogen, then carbon fiber is off the table too

Failus Maximus

5:46 PM

(Carbon isn't metal, it's there just for comparison)

AndyD273

Ok

Failus Maximus

it's reactivity table

other things have reactivity too

hydrogen is always included for comparison, carbon sometimes

technically, H2 is metal, but for it's metalic properties to manifest, it has to go solid

so for all purposes, hydrogen is not treated as a metal

+ as I said, magic distruptive effect has range of around 10-20 cm

so you can cover most of the hovertank in Rolled Homogenous Steel armor just fine

AndyD273

So put the steel under 15cm of wood or other non metal substance

Failus Maximus

also, another method to do away with magic distruption effect is that the effect itself is kind of magic

AndyD273

Actually, put the wood under 15-20 cm of layered carbon fiber mesh. Light and adds strength

Failus Maximus

5:52 PM

that means, you can put thin layer of copper on it and you're fine

just don't let the copper wear down

AndyD273

6:03 PM

So once the connection is complete, will reactive metals start bothering humans too, or are humans going to stay non-magical?

earthers I mean

Failus Maximus

they'll stay nonmagical, and instead will try to "tame" magic scientifically

the races (as well as animals and plants) of the magic universe are mostly product of god-like being coming to earth 50 000 years ago, and then copy-pasting what he saw there with a bit of artistic licence

should I make cannonballs from ceramics or glass?

or of manually processed stone

AndyD273

6:34 PM

ceramic or stone

I just feel that glass would blast into a lot of small bits really easily. like a marble

which might be ok with some cases, where you want shrapnel. Ceramic could be made hollow and filled with something unpleasant. Stone would be a good, solid, heavy thing. Granite for instance is very hard, and more likely to go through magically dense armored wood.

Failus Maximus

6:50 PM

Granite balls then

2750 kg/ m^3

still less barely over a third of the density of a steel ball, but will work

AndyD273

Actually, you could make ceramic balls covered in copper leaf, and filled with iron filings. Hits, explodes, sends razor sharp shards and a cloud of iron everywhere

Anti-personnel

Failus Maximus

actually, lead would be more workable

led is usually mentioned as the first metal above hydrogen in the order of metal reactivity

that means it has weakest anti-magic effect and causes least discomfort among more reactive metals

AndyD273

less reactive than iron though... but in that case just make the balls out of lead covered in copper. So long as the leaf is intact no worries. but it won't stay intact once it runs into an enemy ship hull

Worldbuilding Meta

7:30 PM

0

Q: Intentional attacks in Answers

This question asks an abstract question about a hypothetical (and probably evil) religion. It's a good question and deserves a good answer. However User "Adrian - Justice for Monica" chose not to write about an abstract religion, but instead to write about a real-world specific religion and to e...

Green

@James And you call yourself a DM. Pfft.

James

7:53 PM

@Green Which one were you responding to

Failus Maximus

8:13 PM

well that was the door I shouldn't have opened

damn you link posting bot

I shouldn't have clicked that link

Hosch250

LOL, quite the comment war.

Failus Maximus

DJClayworth, more like DJKaren am I right

sorry, I shouldn't get so passionate about this

Bellerophon

@FailusMaximus DJKaren?

Failus Maximus

Can I see the stackexchang managers? These people don't talk politely about my religion.

Hosch250

8:28 PM

Funny thing, this was one of the things I considered when I was deciding if I would stay a Christian or not.

I mean, the part about is God really benevolent if people have to go to hell.

The way I look at it is allowing us the choice Socrates pointed out about living in a country.

If you live in a country, you agree to be bound by the rules.

You aren't forced to be bound by the rules, though; you can leave the country.

But if you leave the country, you lose all the benefits as well as all the rules.

And again, it's like Aule's making of the Dwarves.

He didn't want a bunch of puppets. He wanted people who wanted to be with Him.

Other people disagree with me, obviously, but that's just my take on it.

Bellerophon

It's an interesting way of looking at it and not one I've heard before.

Separatrix

See I grew up more with the old testament than the new

The old testament god is a bastard

and that's putting it mildly

Bellerophon

What do you mean by leave the country though? It seems to me like it is hard to opt out of the country when the country is basically life.

Separatrix

@Bellerophon, I'm the first member of my family in 130 years to not have made a permanent change of country at some point in life

When things get bad you change country

It may be longer than that, but that's as far as we have records

Hosch250

@Bellerophon I mean, you don't have to live in God's country. There's only one other place to go, though.

Bellerophon

8:35 PM

@Hosch250 Ah, gotcha. That makes a lot more sense.

Hosch250

@Separatrix The OT is very much historical, from my perspective.

People try to modernize it too much.

For example, Israel wasn't a modern city, not was it so much feudal like Europe in the middle ages. It was a lot more like the Native American tribes.

Bellerophon

@Separatrix I was meaning in terms of Hosch's metaphor of heaven and hell being like countries rather than literally leaving countries.

Hosch250

It was family groups that paid tribute to a local lord and got conscripted to fight wars periodically.

Separatrix

There are plenty of other gods with different rules

Hosch250

With some centralized small "cities".

Separatrix

8:37 PM

Pick one of the Greek pantheon, at least they don't pretend to be better than they are

Hosch250

My take is that there are several periods of God giving people different options to attract people. He knows they won't all come, but at the end of the "day", he can say "I tried that."

Separatrix

Ancient Israel is better modelled as a tribal land under a theocracy, they answer to the tribe and the priests

That tribalism carries on in the region, the nation states are just an overlay on a much older system

Hosch250

First, he and the devil had direct access to us, and us to them, probably until around the time of the flood.

Separatrix

Yeah, and if we go to him at the end then he's got some real hard questions to answer, starting with the holocaust and working backwards

AndyD273

@Separatrix You blame God for the holocaust?

Hosch250

8:40 PM

That's when the "Nephilim" were around, and I'm guessing that's where some of the old legends come from. As the result of that, some spiritual beings got sent to hell "early" for breaking the rules, and everything got cleaned up and started over.

Separatrix

@AndyD273 if there is a god and he did nothing, what use is he?

AndyD273

He did something, he sent in the allies.

And lots of other good people that did the right thing

Schindler is an example

Hosch250

And He made the Axis make a LOT of incredibly stupid mistakes.

Separatrix

That's all the actions of people, there are always good people

Mike Nichols

I'm sure Anne Frank really appreciated that.

Hosch250

8:43 PM

I mean, sure, he didn't send angelic beings to stop it--but we humans are mostly supposed to solve our own problems with minimal help. If he sent angels for that, we'd be all "why didn't you send angels for this, and this, and this?"

AndyD273

If God were to step down and take control every time a bad person did enough bad things, then that would be interfering in the results too much

Mike Nichols

Well why didn't he send angels for that and that and that?

Results of what? Are we all some science experiment that god is running?

Hosch250

Because we already told him to F off by eating the "apple".

Separatrix

How many have to die before he will act?

Hosch250

@Separatrix According to some takes, when there are less than 10 good people left, that's when he acts.

AndyD273

8:44 PM

There are plenty of stories about miraculous escapes thoughout

Separatrix

@AndyD273 Survivor bias

AndyD273

The guy that had his bomber shot down and fell 20,000 feet without a parachute

Separatrix

They scraped him off the runway like a lump of strawberry jam, there's a whole song about him

Mike Nichols

You think that while 6 million Jews are dying the miraculous escapes of a few are evidence of a benevolent god?

AndyD273

Do you know the big picture?

Separatrix

8:47 PM

the 75 million total dead?

That's a big picture from WWII

AndyD273

From WWII, not the big picture

I'm not even granting that God allowed it to happen either

Separatrix

Ah, what you need is a total perspective vortex. In the big picture, you're nothing.

Mike Nichols

Is there where you argue that the omnipotent and omniscient god has no other choice but to visit misery and tragedy upon us in order to achieve some lofty goal beyond our comprehension?

AndyD273

Nope

God didn't start it

Separatrix

Man started, man ended it

God wasn't to be found

Either that or he saved a few favourites and left the rest to burn

Which one makes him look better?

AndyD273

8:49 PM

But people get to make choices

Mike Nichols

How can you simultaneously argue that god isn't responsible for awful happenings, but claim that god is responsible for good "miraculous" occurences?

AndyD273

Not my job to make God look better. He can defend himself.

@MikeNichols Is that a serious question?

Separatrix

But he chooses not to. So here we stand. And as I said, if we face him at the end, I will be judging him

Mike Nichols

Very much so. According to you, bad things are the result of bad people. Yet you claim any good thing that happens is a miracle sent by god.

AndyD273

How can I claim I'm not responsible if my kid hits another kid, but argue that I'm responsible if I reward my other kid for not getting in a fight

Not any good thing

Hosch250

8:51 PM

@Separatrix That's my view. We started it, and he left us to stop it. He's not a helicopter parent.

And, interestingly enough, we will be judged by ourselves.

Bellerophon

@AndyD273 The one problem I have with this argument is that it raises the question of why God, who is all about free will and solving our own problems, decided to intervene to save a few thousand people but didn't intervene for the other millions.

Hosch250

Each person will be judged by their own beliefs and moral code.

@Bellerophon Same. My take is we are basically "grown up" and on our own at this point until the end comes.

Bellerophon

I much prefer the God leaves us to our own devices argument since that seems to make much more sense. That way he is testing us/letting us do our own thing or whatever whereas if he steps in occasionally it makes God sound like that parent who keeps irritatingly stepping in to do stuff for his kids.

Hosch250

And at some point, it's going to be where we not as an individual, or even a nation, but as an entire race will reject him, and then he'll come out and say "Hi! I'm actually real. Want to have a talk about things?"

But as long as there are enough people to tell about him without him needing to step in, he leaves it to them.

Mike Nichols

@Hosch250 You sure he won't just send another flood?

Separatrix

8:56 PM

@Hosch250 If he pulls a stunt like that I'm asking for the apple. He can sod right off again.

Hosch250

@MikeNichols Well, pretty sure destroying the entire earth is a lot more dramatic than a flood, but there are lots of warnings first.

Separatrix

The story of the apple is that we chose knowledge and independence. He really should have been hands off from that point forward, but no, he couldn't leave well alone.

Hosch250

@Separatrix Well, in that case, the earth would've been destroyed permanently at the time of the flood. He gave us all a second chance.

Separatrix

Another 3000 years of interfering

The flood was interference after he should have kept his nose out

As was the Tower of Babel, again the people telling him to keep his nose out.

AndyD273

I think you can find a few clues if you look at the Old Testament... It goes in a pattern. The people are following Gods rules, God fights on their behalf. They turn their back on God, and they get conquered. They turn back to God, God sets them free... over and over again.

Separatrix

8:59 PM

There's also a pattern that says he acts only within a small circle in the near east, but that's by the by

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