The Factory Floor

Gryphon

01:07

@Aify is there anything we can do to get you back?

The Mattbat999

Hello!

@Gryphon why is @Aify leaving, good sir/madame?

Gryphon

@TheMattbat999 He's become rather frustrated with the quality of some questions on the site.

The Mattbat999

@Gryphon ah. Yeah, alot of sites have gotten many of low-quality post, especially Arqade. Worldbuilding hasn't been going good either. Are they taking a break, or leaving for good?

Gryphon

01:23

@TheMattbat999 I think he's planning on leaving for good. Hopefully, he still comes around this chat room occasionally, though. He's good to talk to.

The Mattbat999

@Gryphon hmmm.... I am in a pickle to. One of my friends on Game Dev chat got banned for almost a year, and now I am having difficulty contacting them very often....

Gryphon

@TheMattbat999 It doesn't happen to be FreezePhoenix, does it? Because he recently was chat-banned for nearly a year.

The Mattbat999

@Gryphon yep it is. I take it he hangs around here too?

Gryphon

He does (or rather, did).

The Mattbat999

What he did seemed rather minor, and a 320 day ban seemed... unecessary.

Gryphon

01:29

@TheMattbat999 We aren't allowed to speculate on the cause of the ban, so I won't ask you what it was.

The Mattbat999

@Gryphon ok. Still, he shall be missed.

Gryphon

@TheMattbat999 He'll (hopefully) be back eventually.

The Mattbat999

@Gryphon possibly so. He still participates on SE and Meta

Gryphon

@TheMattbat999 Yeah, but that's different from being in the chat.

The Mattbat999

@Gryphon of course. But at least it is a sign he will be back one day....

So... what do you guys usually talk about @Gryphon

Gryphon

01:49

@TheMattbat999 Random things, new science, throwing nukes into extreme weather patterns, science, rockets, spaceships, dinosaurs, dragons, death, venom-spraying elephants, books, movies, games, etc.

Are the things that crossed my mind that we've talked about recently.

The Mattbat999

Seems interesting.

I have posted a few times on the main site, but haven't been to this room before...

Secret

02:43

Last night dream: When chaos theory mixed with time travel, you get something very strange:

in a futuristic cylindrical room (white in design, with futuristic glass rooms surrounding it, a circular skylight and a beige wooden floor), a handsome westerm male was seen standing in the middle as he walked towards a stairs. Moments later, two people (a western woman and a guy) entered the room. These two are the protagonists and they are trying to set things right by having the guy to observe the man who is currently residing in an unstable equilibrium of a timeline, evidenced by him occasionally switching to slightly different versions of himself like a glitched TV, and thus his mere …

Feeds 4026

11:07

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Draft in Progress - I currently can't access all the material I want to reference and will update this later. How to build a Mary Gun? I recently played the game Mary Skelter - Nightmares, in which the protagonist after some time acquires a weapon that is called a Mary Gun - a device that shoot...

Mithrandir

11:49

Is it just me or does this, from the poster for Bumblebee, look really similar to the Worldbuilding.SE theme?

And, you know, Slartibotfast.

Hosch250

12:53

@TheMattbat999 He's on Discord.

Here's the invitation link: discord.gg/QCzHNSk

@Mithrandir It does.

Secespitus

13:23

@Mithrandir It looks a lot like the WorldBuilding design. Interesting.

Hosch250

Yesterday, we let my dog lick off a spoon (for apparently the first time, or something, I guess). She tried to eat off it like a person (she's tries to mimic the way we do things and what we do all the time).

Secret

in Mathematics, 6 mins ago, by Semiclassical

Not nothing, but not much

How to be more unpredictable than stochastic + quantum: Make it so that every measurement will disrupt the system so much that the outcome is a fresh system which we knew absolutely nothing about

And if that is always unprecendented and does not recur in some probabilistic fashion, then we will have very very hard magic

One can still use the scientific method on it, but the data will be as crazy as a kids drawing

Hosch250

@Secret Even if the results are not probabilistic, they are after N results.

Because, if they are truly randomly chosen, then we have equal probabilities.

If they aren't truly randomly chosen, then the probabilities are slightly skewed.

Secret

the way to escape that is to have an effectively infinite sample space, and such that every outcome is different each time and has no correlation with each other

the unprecendentedness is the key here

Hosch250

Yeah, that's one way.

Secret

13:37

There is no way to predict the unknowable, that's the thing that the scientific method cannot quite get data on because the data has infinite complexity to disallow any conclusion to be drawn and models to be made

I cannot think of any finite way to pull that off though

Hosch250

But it's still probabilistic that if I perform trigger X, I can predict that something new will happen.

Correct.

Secret

Well, P(new thing happen) = 1 does not really tell much, because there is no information to determine or guess what the new thing may be

I think practical purpose that will make it hard to be considered as physics (except when you have scientific models of strictly increasing complexity that does not predict anything, and the list of known results just keep growing and not repeating)

and given that we people are finite creatures, and infinite things strictly speaking cannot be proved from below, the only thing we can said when performing experiment on such phenomenon is that "everything has been not repeating and show absolutely no correlation so far, there is a high possibility that the next thing may be new"

Hosch250

Exactly. I think you just reinvented the concept of a timeless, spaceless god.

Well, one without morals.

Secret

But even if we accept all of the above, that is still not quite magic. This is because there's actually a class of phenomenon that behave almost exactly like what is written above (well other than the non correlation bit)

Hosch250

Because if there were morals, there'd be a correlation with some events.

Secret

13:46

The process when an unknown unknown becomes known. There are in general no way to predict what the new unknown unknown will be

for example, back in newton times, nobody dreamt of quantum mechanics of special relativity

Hosch250

@Secret You sure?

Secret

(well er, I actually don't know)

Hosch250

Maybe they just never wrote it down because it seemed so wacky.

Or they didn't have the means to write it down :)

Secret

But I do think accidental scientific discovery is really the closest thing we have that behaves like magic. There is in general no way to predict when, where, who ,what, why how the next breakthrough discovery is made

I mean, we ca get very close to e.g. predict what place or which team is likely to have the next breakthrough, but no matter how much data we have, we never can predict the nature of the discovery itself before it is discovered

Hosch250

You know, I kind of wish science wasn't so high-tech now.

It's all cool what they are finding, but it's so specialized it's next to useless even to the people doing the work.

Because nobody even sees the big picture anymore.

Not saying it isn't useful at the same time.

Because it can be used.

Secret

13:53

yeah, that increase in specialisation is an issue, it also affect the legibility of scientific papers because jargons have gone so specialised

James

@Hosch250 You'll likely never have a Da'Vinci esqe person in the future of humanity. One person just can't know it all.

Hosch250

@James I know.

Or Aristotle.

Gryphon

@James Hey James, the Quantum Aify tag isn't up there yet...

Hosch250

I love how Aristotle documented octopus sex, and it wasn't rediscovered for over 1000 years, or something like that.

Secret

10 mins ago, by Hosch250

Exactly. I think you just reinvented the concept of a timeless, spaceless god.

Reading mind bending things like infinity, limbo, nowhere, cthulu etc. stuff does help

Gryphon

13:56

@Hosch250 Yeah, but then he claimed that human pregnancy lasted about 10 months, so...

Hosch250

@Gryphon It's not uncommon.

Secret

(not to mentioned spent 6 hours in total with mathematicians, artists and philosphers on trying to pin down spacelessness)

Hosch250

Many families consistently last about 8 or 10 months.

Nowadays, the 10 month ones are mostly induced.

Gryphon

@Hosch250 Yes, but he claimed that was an average. And then everyone in the medieval era went "Wait, it's actually 9 months! I know, the length of pregnancy has changed since Aristotle's time!"

Hosch250

LOL.

Maybe it was an average at the time.

James

13:59

Science is really weird.

4

Hosch250

/jk

Got a meeting. TTYL.

Gryphon

@James, still no quantum-aify

Secret

what is a quanutm aify?

Hosch250

18 hours ago, by Hosch250

Then there was a joke about a sort of Schrodinger's Aify, and it was decided to post quantum-aify on the chatroom if he left.

Secret

I see

Gryphon

14:02

@Secret And then yesterday, Aify told us to put up the Quantum Aify tag (meaning he was leaving).

Secespitus

@Gryphon I don't see why we should publicly announce that one user was so sick of the site that they left...

Gryphon

@Secespitus I think it's more of an "in Memoriam" thing.

AndyD273

The thing about quantum Aify is that if you go looking for Aify you'll collapse the wave function and Aify will either be gone, or not. As long as Aify is in a superposition we don't have to worry about it too much.

Secret

[Random faux proof]

Claim: Science is magic

Proof:

The nature of any scientific discovery is inherently unpredictable and unknowable

This is also a core characteristic of magic

Therefore Science is magic

Generalised Clarke's Theorem:

All magic is science and all science is magic

Kepotx

14:19

My tee shirt is black

My car is black

therefore, my tee-shirt is my car

Generalised Kepotx's theorem:

any sufficiently advanced tee-shirt is indistinguishable from a car

5

Secespitus

@Kepotx That is an interesting version. I shall drive to work in my tee-shirt from now on.

Kepotx

well, this morning i was in my tee-shirt when driving to work

AndyD273

I drive to work in my tee-shirt most days during the summer. In the winter I drive to work in my heavy coat. Spring and fall I drive to work in a hoody most days.

Kepotx

we should create a paralel universe where tee-shirt are cars

Secespitus

@Secret It just means they share one characteristic, not that this characteristic is the defining characteristic for both of them. To borrow something from mathematics: you have found a necessary condition, not a sufficient one.

Kepotx

14:23

like they are tee-shirt lot and stuff

Secret

ah right

I will need to dabble a lot into mysticism in order to understand what the other essence of magic is. I was recently gathering with religious communities in interfaith meetings so that gap shoudl be filled very soon

Secespitus

What is an "interfaith meeting"?

Kepotx

a meeting between diferent confession/religions

like doing a debate with an imam, a rabin and a priest

Secret

yeah, such as having buddhists, slkhists, catholics, christians, muslims etc.

Secespitus

Isn't this just a discussion between people with the topic of their religion?

Secret

14:26

all talk about cultural things that is relevant to the society

for example, they get together to talk about the role of religion on shaping culture, sharing about our jorneys in each belief, spiritual solutions to wellbeing and political issues

facebook.com/YouthPoWR

This is one of the interfaith groups in australia

Secret

Btw, still pretty frustrated that magic that I have conceived so far that is too hard to make a science model for are often so unpredictable that you cannot really do anything with it without risk suffering from bizarre outcomes not limited to turning into a frog, atomise, rearange and then displace to mars, turned into water and then turn to fire etc.

I think the thinking I need is to be able to directly work with unpredictability itself

Hosch250

So, what you need is predictable unpredictability.

Secret

Well, in science, already something lesser is ongoing, such as noise control in systems, thus scientists can actually control where heat is dissipated, where noise can be used to cause spontaneous ordering

Hosch250

So, character A: chant chant mumble mumble

Kepotx

it could be fun to see how scientist manage tu study magic/science in such unpredictable world

Hosch250

14:36

Result: Random bad thing happens to character B.

Secret

but yeah, noise control is not quite the level of predictable unpredictability, that's the next milestone if it is even possible to reach it

Hosch250

Character A: "I didn't care if you turned into a pig or a cloud of sentient air. Either way, LOL."

Reminds me of the story in the Arabian nights about the wife who turned the guy's mistress and their brat into animals.

Then she persuaded him to slaughter them. The mistress got killed, but he didn't do the son.

Secret

15:05

I sometimes wonder where they get that idea of turning people into animals from

a lot of stories involving magic love to have this curse

Feeds 4026

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

To Conquer the Earth by Appearing Ship An alien species has been conquering planet after planet around the milky way for some time. They detected intelligent life on earth a while back and now they decided it’s time to add us to their collection. To capture us, they send one of their massive acq...

Secret

also, some stuff I work on last year in worldbuilding and now scrapped because it is sooo out of date

Hosch250

@Secret Nebuchadnezzar?

@Feeds4026 As long as they don't hit the atmosphere, nothing happens, (IIUC).

If they do hit the atmosphere, nothing happens to earth, and their ship explodes, burns, or bounces uncontrollably into space.

Perhaps all three.

Feeds 4026

15:53

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Worst than zombies At university my peer group started to use the saying "it could be worse, there could be zombies" as a way to tell people to keep things in perspective. The statement always implied two things: there is no situation that cannot be made worse by adding zombies if there are z...

JavaScriptCoder

16:35

-1

Q: How to combat magic as science?

Background Information This is in a solar system orbiting a K-type star with about one-tenth the luminosity of the Sun. There are two planets in the habitiable zone (ultraviolet and water), lets call them A and B. Planet A: 0.9 times the size of Earth, orbiting at about 0.35 AU, this is a hot p...

I could see this being too story-based, but what can I do to fix this question?

James

@JavaScriptCoder Morning

JavaScriptCoder

@James hi!

James

I put your question on hold while we chat, so people don't start answering

JavaScriptCoder

don't usually come to meta

ok cool

James

Answerers get frustrated when the question changes after they answer.

JavaScriptCoder

16:40

yeah

5 mins ago, by JavaScriptCoder

I could see this being too story-based, but what can I do to fix this question?

James

So just read it...and my first point would be that your description is a little confusing. You introduce Planet A and Planet B.

Planet A has tech

Hosch250

So, your question is how magic can defeat science?

When science is infinitely superior to magic--except the magicians have foresight?

James

Planet B has Magic

JavaScriptCoder

more like how a medieval world with some magic can figure out how these tech things work

Hosch250

Oh. Well, that's actually a specific question that isn't really clear (to me) in the question.

James

16:43

Alice is from planet B, so she has magic?

JavaScriptCoder

yeah

Hosch250

I think if you explicitly call that phrase out, it works.

JavaScriptCoder

and planet a is planning to take over planet b with their technicians being the only ones who keep the tech running

Hosch250

But, I'm new on the site, so don't take my word for it :)

JavaScriptCoder

basically: all (or almost all) of the other nations have been fooled into thinking the tech is the magic

just a different form

and they pay for it dearly with their natural resources which planet A needs

and if they stop paying, planet A can simply shut down the magic tech

but that's the end goal

James

16:45

So, the real core question is "How can Alice use her powers to identify what the visitors call Magic is actually technology" Is that correct?

JavaScriptCoder

yeah

i guess

James

Your question, is that what you are trying to figure out?

Hosch250

Well, identifying something is not magic and figuring out how to control it are two different things?

> more like how a medieval world with some magic can figure out how these tech things work

JavaScriptCoder

Maybe this could be split: A: how can alice identify the trap? B how can alice control the tech and avoid the trap

Would that work?

James

@JavaScriptCoder Good to split questions like that. Establish how she can identify the trap. Then ask about avoiding said trap once you work out the details.

JavaScriptCoder

16:48

Okay, would that completely fix the problem? There's still the question of whether it is too story based...

Hosch250

Maybe you don't need to mention "magic" at all?

James

So the problem you will still have is this: If the answer is some form of, "she uses her magic" you are going to have to explain the magic system and her specific powers. You are also going to have to explain what technology the planet A people are using to bait the trap.

JavaScriptCoder

okay...

Hosch250

You could just say Alice, as a member of planet B, suspects the tech isn't magic, but doesn't have hard proof.

How can she gather hard proof?

This way, you don't bring the touchy word "magic" in, even if in the story, she senses it with her magic.

JavaScriptCoder

hmm

James

16:50

@JavaScriptCoder The problem with questions about magic is that...magic can be anything so unless we know how yours works we can't really help you out.

JavaScriptCoder

@James okay

so a) split the question b) explain the magic c) detail the trap

gosh this is going to take a while :P

Hosch250

Feel free to use the sandbox :)

Also, let me know when the story is done. I'd like to read it.

JavaScriptCoder

probably going to take a long time

I'll do it sometime

Hosch250

Don't worry. I've written about 6 paragraphs in my story over the past 2 weeks :)

JavaScriptCoder

@Hosch250 not that: I'm going to get it done, probably during NaNoWriMo or something

Its just that I currently have other priorities

Hosch250

16:53

What's that again?

JavaScriptCoder

National Novel Writing Month (november)?

Hosch250

Oh, OK.

JavaScriptCoder

Anyways, I'll be off editing my question!

Thanks!

James

@JavaScriptCoder One option would be something like this: Alice, a mage from planet B uses her unique magic abilities to realize that the visitors from planet A are actually invaders and that the magic they are using is actually technology and part of a devious trap to take over the planet. The trap: EXPLAIN THE TRAP TECHNOLOGY. Given X magical powers (explain what your magicians can do) how do the magicians accept the help and avoid the trap?

I think that form of the question probably ends up working.

JavaScriptCoder

@James great, thanks!

Also could you keep it on hold until the question is finalized? That would be nice

James

16:55

@JavaScriptCoder It sort of eliminates your first question of "how did she figure it out" but that may just make your life easier...

JavaScriptCoder

Yeah...

James

@JavaScriptCoder That or if you are completely re-writing it you may just want to delete it and re-post later.

JavaScriptCoder

@James I think I can just edit

the background info at the top is ok, right?

James

Alright I will leave it be. If you want us to take a look after you are done just swing be here again.

JavaScriptCoder

Yeah, thanks a lot!

James

16:57

@JavaScriptCoder Its fine but the planet details aren't really importance since you aren't asking about how they travel or anything like that.

JavaScriptCoder

ok

James

Those can, and probably should be removed for the sake of brevity and to avoid any confusion. People tend to assume details are important if they are there

Hosch250

Also, nice to see a new questioner being nice about their question being put on hold and putting in the effort to clean it up :)

James

@Hosch250 Java's been around a while if I recall

Hosch250

Oh, well, nice to meet him then :)

James

16:59

But yeah, teamwork makes for better questions :D

JavaScriptCoder

@James yeah, I'm still relatively new though

More experienced with the chemistry world, where there's a straight black line you can't cross and all questions are on either side of it :)

James

@JavaScriptCoder HAH! Yeah WB is a whole different thing compared to the science sites.

AndyD273

Which makes for really interesting debates by people who think WB should be more like science sites

James

@AndyD273 The middle ground can be a lonely place...

lunchtime...

Hosch250

@James At least it's not no-man's-land.

FoxElemental

17:30

Whaaat? No Quantum Aify? So right now it's Shrodinger's Aify?

@Gryphon Hmmm. Venom-spraying elephants? Sounds strangely familiar . . .

Hosch250

17:56

Hey, @Fox.

FoxElemental

HI @Hosch

Hosch250

Bye.

Got a meeting now.

TTYL.

FoxElemental

@Hosch See you

Mithrandir24601

18:16

this is why you should always know where your towel is

JavaScriptCoder

20:24

@Mithrandir24601 hmm. It can sometimes get confusing when there are two mithrandirs in a room

Mithrandir24601

@JavaScriptCoder I've been told that before :P :)

JavaScriptCoder

which one of you came first?

oh wait

ok i answered my own question :P

Mithrandir24601

@JavaScriptCoder I don't actually know. I could trawl through all the sites and find out when Mith started but that's a rather large amount of effort :P

JavaScriptCoder

or you could go to her parent page :P

Mithrandir24601

I've been on WB for 2 years, 3 months

JavaScriptCoder

20:29

Mith's been around since 2014. She wins :P

Mithrandir24601

@JavaScriptCoder Doesn't necessarily work - my parent page is quantum computing (cause I mod that one), which I've been on for only 4 months, which is when it started

JavaScriptCoder

@Mithrandir24601 I meant network profile

same difference

Mithrandir24601

@JavaScriptCoder I'm not sure if everyone starts off with a chat profile or not though :/

JavaScriptCoder

no everyone has a network profile

unless they're unregistered

Mithrandir24601

but yeah, 2014 is a fair bit before I started :P

James

21:03

Anyone else think this is way too broad or maybe more POB?

38

A: Aftermath of a Midas-weapon war - what to do with all that gold?

All that gold makes gold virtually worthless so people would put it to practical use like construction. The Pantheon is held together with iron bars coated in lead to slow down corrosion. You could get better protection coating iron in gold. You can coat roofs in gold leaf for excellent waterpro...

There are 0 constraints...

JavaScriptCoder

Hi @James! I just edited my question, could you take a look?

@James that's an answer, not a question

although the question might be considered too broad... yeah

James

21:28

@JavaScriptCoder I can do that in a couple minutes

ah, didn't realize i was on an answer when I linked it.

JavaScriptCoder

yeah the question is broad but I don't really have VTC power :P

@James ok thanks

James

@JavaScriptCoder If you agree I think you should be able to flag it? That would put it in the review queue at least

JavaScriptCoder

I already did

James

Also, I spelled queue correctly without thinking about it.

Twice.

Wooo!

JavaScriptCoder

do you spell it wrong sometimes?

James

21:34

Only when I think about it.

JavaScriptCoder

maybe que or q?

James

all the e's and u's confuse my brain for some reason.

JavaScriptCoder

hmm

anyways WB chat is pretty nice. Think I will stop by some times in the future.

Mithrandir24601

@James Yeah, as there's no way to determine the best answer

James

21:54

@Mithrandir24601 I don't feel like mod-hammering it so feel free to VTC

Mithrandir24601

@James I would... But I'm still <2k rep, even though I've been here for years and do a considerable chunk of reviewing :P

Though to be fair, WB has upped its game when it comes to reviewing in the past year or so

James

@Mithrandir24601 Wow...I would have thought you were 10k plus.

@JavaScriptCoder One more thing I would add. What will make an answer good for you personally. I.e. you have certain ideas or constraints in mind, what are those. That will help the other users grade answers versus each other.

Mithrandir24601

@James Thanks! But I've only written 18 answers :P I spend all my time doing things that aren't making posts

James

@JavaScriptCoder For example if you don't want the answer to be "Steal the inventions and start mass producing them on their own" you need to make that a constraint. I have a hunch that will be the first answer written.

Have to run, we can chat more tomorrow if you want

@Mithrandir24601 Many bonus Glarnak blessings upon you.

Mithrandir24601

22:14

@James It's not as helpful as it sounds... Most of the 'not making posts' happens on quantum computing

FoxElemental

22:33

@James Same

Haaruun I

23:33

https://medium.com/@haaruunibrow/the-accursed-60bdf7d8552c

I Have no idea what to do next

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