The Factory Floor

AndyD273

17:13

I think ultraviolet stars would be pretty

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 ultraviolent stars?

Ferret Civilization

They come to your planet and demand protection money in their racket.

AndyD273

17:32

@dot_Sp0T They are alien, right? Is it possible that they can see different wavelengths than us? It would be amusing if the flag looked completely white to us, but to them it's all kinds of interesting color.

Or mantis shrimp vision... They have crazy eyes

phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/07/03/…

Secespitus

@AndyD273 16 colors or something, was it?

AndyD273

@Secespitus Including 6 wavelengths of UV

Future Historian

@AndyD273. They originate from Kepler 452b.

Secespitus

Yeah, they are pretty cool. It's fascinating how different "eyes" can be if you look closely at how the visual systems of different creatures work.

Future Historian

And that planet orbits a G-class star.

AndyD273

17:41

@FutureHistorian Yup. If they lived in the air where a flag makes sense, it would have UV patterns.

Future Historian

Well, is our sun NOT a G-class star?

Kepler-452

Kepler-452 is a G-type main-sequence star located about 1400 light-years away from Earth in the constellation of Cygnus. It has a similar temperature to that of the Sun, but it is 20 percent brighter, 3.7 percent more massive and is 11 percent larger. It is approximately six billion years old, 1.5 billion years older than the Sun and also has a much higher metallicity. Thus, Kepler-452 can be considered a solar twin, however its age pushes it more back towards the "solar analog" criteria. == Nomenclature and history == Prior to Kepler observation, Kepler-452 had the 2MASS catalogue number 2MASS...

This is the star itself and the planet is Kepler 452b.

So, the star is VERY sun-like.

As in: it is similar to our own Sol star.

AndyD273

@Secespitus That article also points out that the nerves for visible light go to one part of their brain, but the ones that detect UV goes to a completely different part of the brain, so they are two independent systems.

Future Historian

@AndyD273? What do you think? Could a G-class star still mean they see visible light or do they see UV light instead?

Even though I think that would be more suitable towards an F-class star?

Er....

@AndyD273? Are you sure the UV light can be seen by the Visitors, even when their home planet orbits a real life sun-like star and is also a real planet?

Secespitus

@AndyD273 Yeah, those critters have some completely different way of "seeing" than what we are used to. For example even though they can see 16 colors whereas we can only see two they are actually worse at discriminating colors. They are doing something crazy with all that information that goes beyond what we normally think of as "seeing".

Future Historian

@Secespitus? What are you two referring to? My flag design proposals or something else?

is confused

Bellerophon

17:49

@FutureHistorian Mantis shrimp vision.

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian Buddy, there are arrows on the left side of most chat messages. Those indicate what I am referring to. Hover over my messages and you see what I am replying to.

Future Historian

Oh.

@Bellerophon? Where exactly did the UV star thing spawn from earlier?

Bellerophon

36 mins ago, by AndyD273

I think ultraviolet stars would be pretty

Future Historian

Oh.

I knew it.

@Bellerophon? Question: did you see the flag conversation?

Because I wonder why colour it purple.

And more importantly, how would that translate to human understanding?

Bellerophon

@FutureHistorian No. I only just got here.

Future Historian

17:51

Oh.

Well, to clarify, I had two proposed designs for a flag.

For use by the GPI.

One is to include a star with light beams reaching towards six stars that surround it, which represent Earth's continents (inhabited by humans, of course), while Earth's oceans are represented by a navy blue background.

The second one is a bicolour flag, with navy blue on the left and green on the right, a large star in the centre surrounded by seven smaller stars, each representing the planets of the Solar System. Earth at the centre and the rest around the Earth.

@Bellerophon? Which is more appealing to you and do any of them break the flag design rule principles as described in "Good flag, Bad flag"?

Because I am not sure if Version 1 > Version 2 or vise versa.

Or which version has anything that breaks the rules.

portlandflag.org/good-flag-bad-flag

These rules in particular.

Or to copy-paste them from the link:

1. Keep It Simple. The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory…
2. Use Meaningful Symbolism. The flag’s images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes…
3. Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors. Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set…
4. No Lettering or Seals. Never use writing on any kind or an organization’s seal…
5. Be Distinctive or Be Related. Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections…

Oh and in the second version, the navy blue also represents Earth's oceans, and life on Earth is represented by green.

@FerretCivilization? Did you decide on any colours to differentiate the shining star in the centre for version 1?

Because yellow is the shining star, while I am still undecided on the colour of the other six stars.

Ferret Civilization

White.

Future Historian

Should they be green, given their symbolism or should another colour be in order?

Oh.

White it is, then.

Bellerophon

@FutureHistorian I prefer version 2.

Feeds

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Why would hominid, intelligent creature melt when splashed with pure water? [[Sandbox note: Is the large amount of text quoted from the Wizard of Oz necessary? It was certainly the inspiration for my question, and thus provides all the details that I believe an answer would need, but there may b...

Future Historian

18:17

And I finished both on MS Paint.

These are the two versions I propose.

@Bellerophon? Take note: these are preliminary versions, so expect a few errors every now and then.

So, which looks better?

Errors aside?

sphennings

White on yellow is really hard to make out.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? Your preference out of the two flags I just posted?

@sphennings. It was @FerretCivilization's idea.

Ferret Civilization

Saw it differently in my head, yours makes me think Imperial Japan now, ha.

Future Historian

Still, you have a better colour for the first flag's stars, @sphennings?

@FerretCivilization. It is not final.

And it is still prone to changes.

So, you could at least try to make a better version of it.

So, @FerretCivilization? Any changes to flag 1?

Or not really?

That you recommend, I mean?

@FerretCivilization? Your recommendation to make the first flag more original? Or do you think Flag #2 is better now?

And I originally planned Flag 2 to be navy blue on the left and green on the right. A slight error, but oh well. It looks better this way.

@sphennings? Since white is hard to tell on this one, do you have a better colour recommendation?

Ferret Civilization

Thinking about ideas. You changed it to 8 stars for flag two there. Going to stick with three colors like a hard rule?

Future Historian

18:23

Three or less, yes.

sphennings

@FutureHistorian Not really

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization. Yes, since I realised that seven stars was probably not going to look very appealing.

At least the eight planets of the Solar System are still represented, along with our own star.

:(

Well, @sphennings. I did want the six stars in flag 1 to represent the six inhabited continents of Earth.

So, should I make them green instead?

Ferret Civilization

Take out the bottom one, space out the three on each side. Or put 3 on one side four on the other, make it heavy on one side is an artistic thing that is done.

Future Historian

O_O

sphennings

@FutureHistorian You can if you want to. Try a bunch of colors and see which ones look good to you.

Future Historian

18:25

@FerretCivilization. It still would look confusing to any human PoV (most of the time, I mean).

I know there may be a few exceptions, but the aesthetic would still be rather unappealing to most people.

Well, I do like the white stars, but you said it yourself: it was difficult to pinpoint with the shining beams of light.

And so I updated it.

Better? @sphennings?

@FerretCivilization? Does this update to the first flag look better to you or do you think the original version of flag 1 was better?

And I know, it still has errors concerning the position of the sun and the surrounding stars, but it is still better than nothing.

@FerretCivilization? Could you tell the stars in the original design?

Or would that be too difficult to notice for the average human being from a distance?

By the way, I fixed the original proposal's position to make it more consistent.

Ferret Civilization

I could tell, but going from using a bright shade to analogous color does not really help it stand out if that is what you would want to go for.

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 I'm gonna cook some of those bastards next week

Future Historian

Oh.

@FerretCivilization? What do you recommend I do, then?

Do I revamp the design or do I just make small variations to see which one is more distinct?

Ferret Civilization

A start would be seeing how complementary colors look.

Future Historian

Oh.

Bellerophon

18:34

I still prefer the second one.

dot_Sp0T

@FutureHistorian that one looks better to my aestethics

You might want to play around with the blue and yellow saturations

Future Historian

Oh. That makes sense.

Thank you!

So, flag #2 it is, then.

Wait.

@FerretCivilization? Which one makes more sense in terms of the symbolism to you?

Especially when we are talking about a human puppet government controlled by the Visitors/Xwlnnr.

Ferret Civilization

Any of them.

Future Historian

Well, final decision: flag #2.

By popular choice.

:P

The symbolism makes sense, not to mention that flag 2 is also more aesthetically pleasing as well.

dot_Sp0T

Without having read more than your mentions of a puppet government, can I assume the Green (and Blue) to stand for earth and the stars for the benevolent visitors?

Future Historian

18:42

Hmmmmmmmm. Well, I will leave it up to you to interpret it.

Oh and NOTE: The official explanation is that the green represents life on Earth (or Earth if you want), the blue represents Earth's oceans (or the benevolence of the Visitors, now that I think about it would be a better symbol), the centre star represents the Sol star and the surrounding stars represent the planets of the Solar System.

Earth may be the occupied planet, but the Visitors have plans to set up shop beyond Cislunar space, since the Moon is also controlled by the Visitors for the past 10 years since the Invasion.

So, consider this the fact that the GPI has de jure control over the Solar System and is treated more or less like an autonomous colony.

It can decide most of its own internal affairs (with a few exceptions, of course), but cannot decide its own extrasolar affairs.

And this is a model that the Visitors have tried on other species, with varying degrees of success. Some were later turned into direct rule, others were given semi-independent status as a part of the Xwlnnr civilisation (at least following the eradication of their cultural norms before they got conquered) as "honourary Xwlnnr", whereas others were exterminated with this model.

Depending on how things go, humanity either directly ruled later on, exterminated or becomes the first civilisation to successfully revolt against the Visitors (at least for a while, depending on how things go).

But again, it depends on how the situation could realistically allow any of these paths to happen.

So, the only realistic way humanity could be able to revolt and not be wiped out trying is basically with some aid from renegade Visitors within the Invasion force trying to actively aid the Resistance and its various groups (hence the radical faction of Negotiators).

dot_Sp0T

@FutureHistorian i'd rather you either confirm or correct my assumptions

Future Historian

sighs

Well, the eight small stars represent the Solar System's planets, the big one represents the Sol star.

BUT the green represents the Earth and the blue represents the benevolence of the Xwlnnr/Visitors.

It makes more sense this way.

@dot_Sp0T? Happy that I partially confirmed your assumptions?

And corrected the ones you got wrong?

@Gryphon? Did you just show up?

If so, I will repost the two flag designs I had in mind.

@FerretCivilization? You think the green and navy blue in flag 2 should represent Earth and the "benevolence" of the Visitors instead of what I originally planned?

Oh, I forgot to mention.

Special thanks to @dot_Sp0T for giving me the idea.

:P

Ferret Civilization

Doesn't matter to me.

Future Historian

Oh.

Well, in that case, I am still going to use @dot_Sp0T's suggestion for the green and navy blue colour symbolism.

Oh and.... @FerretCivilization? In a science related note, is there any modern or experimental material that can A. Sustain extreme temperatures generated by plasma surrounding a projectile and B. Sustain projectile rounds going at up to 5 km/s?

dot_Sp0T

@FutureHistorian there's no 'happiness' in this. It's just wanting to understand something / know it correctly

Future Historian

18:56

So, are you at least satisfied?

dot_Sp0T

yes, I got a useful answer

How do you judge information? :)

Future Historian

As for the materials science concern, @FerretCivilization, would Inconel be a good material to assist in modern type IV body armour systems?

It has to be able to protect from coilgun rounds and the plasma generated by the velocity/acceleration of these things in an atmosphere.

That is my requirement for GPI body armour.

And more specifically, body armour that can be used by heavy duty or special forces units, not necessarily regular infantry.

Ferret Civilization

You could look at how space shuttles survive going at 7 km/s

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization. Well, we are talking about a coilgun firing at a human being with enough kinetic energy to one shot most conventional armour, especially considering the plasma generated by the projectile as it speeds towards its target.

So, would Inconel be a good way to enhance conventional armour systems + the experimental graphene body armour design I proposed enters service the year before the Invasion?

Ferret Civilization

Is plasma not generated on reentry of orbit?

Future Historian

19:00

It is, but this is for infantry use.

What could be good enough for body armour to sustain projectiles going that fast and the surrounding plasma?

Especially for heavy duty infantry and special forces?

Oh and bonus points if it is lightweight in the latter's case.

So, special forces variant has an extra requirement: it must be lightweight.

Ferret Civilization

Material does not care about different use, there are materials that can survive worse than your proposal that are in use now.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization. How do you translate that to body armour, though?

And in a way that is light enough for the average infantryman to use, if possible?

Because Inconel can resist up to 871 degrees Celsius worth of heat.

Right?

But......how do we translate that to body armour?

And how do we make sure that the materials involve are safe for human use?

Well, turns out that I just remembered.

@Shalvenay proposed I integrate Inconel into existing body armour systems, considering most Resistance forces still use conventional weapons.

With some units and divisions (or what is left of them) from the IA alliance of national military remnants using lower quality coilguns anyway.

IA = International Army, which is composed of various surviving remnants of national armies, which in turn, represent a small number of various Resistance groups across the globe.

Officially, they are known as the Army of the Free People of Earth.

So.......

Ferret Civilization

Well if you really had to go old school about it a suit of armor can do the trick. Using metal like that Inconel solely to protect against heat and the object. Still die of shock. Better going off with what was talked about all that time ago, just avoid being shot.

Future Historian

I know.

But still, it does help.

@FerretCivilization. It is for GPI use, not use by pre-Invasion military forces.

Then again, the GPI has to deal with forces still mostly limited to conventional weapons, so.........

Ferret Civilization

Pretty much just end up with suits of armor, ha. Much like most the images and ideas of the future armor designs.

AndyD273