The Factory Floor

Future Historian

00:00

@FerretCivilization. So, all we need to do is add in a basic coilgun turret for the X-30, a dual mode fusion thermal engine, and finally, we need to figure out how many passengers the base design could carry.

Then upgrade it to account for the Visitors by comparison.

And since Kepler 452b has higher gravity than our planet.......well, we may need to reduce the passenger count.......for organic Visitors at least.

And save some mass by using the robotic units.

:P

Actually, no.

That will probably not be the best idea to save on mass, would it?

Ferret Civilization

Slap enough power to it and mass does not matter.

Future Historian

True.

Fusion thermal engine, after all.

@FerretCivilization? How much thrust could a single fusion thermal engine have anyway?

Not to mention Isp.

Aka: specific impulse.

Ferret Civilization

Ha heh, looking up that specific impulse, 130,000 seconds.

Future Historian

What about thrust?

Especially on dual mode?

@FerretCivilization? How much thrust in kN?

Ferret Civilization

Don't know myself yet.

Future Historian

00:12

So, want to see if @Mithrandir24601 knows something?

On the thrust those things could have?

Feeds

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

I've given up on completing badge quotas even if I can't do stuff with my low rep and actually ask some questions. my new question is this: what substances, like algae, would be grown to be used in cloning technology. I've seen on this website alone that algae is the next big thing for food pro...

Ferret Civilization

projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#table Close as I could find myself, choose your type of fusion, ha.

Future Historian

Right.

I forgot that Nyrath is always here to help.

:P

Well, @FerretCivilization. Deuterium-Tritium fusion DOES have a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.

But then again, that is just assuming 100% efficiency.

And NO DEVICE is ever 100% efficient.

So, sqrt(1.7 * 10 GW * 2.5 kg/s)/90% = 229.1 kN of thrust.

No wait.

Correction: 206.2 kN of thrust.

Ferret Civilization

00:45

Over 200 kN, closest one I found to that using Deuterium-Tritium Fusion was the Vista design projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/realdesignsfusion.php#vista

Future Historian

O_O

Well, we need something for suborbital and atmospheric flight.

That is a bit overkill for that purpose.

Ferret Civilization

Ha heh, nah it's cool really transport that ground force around. Anything using heavy fusion outside of interplanetary travel would be overkill anyways.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? So, is 206.2 kN of thrust overkill?

And what about for those drones?

@FerretCivilization? The drones?

If a similar engine was implemented for them, is that too overkill?

Ferret Civilization

You could use the same engine yeah.

Make your drone rather big though, ha.

Future Historian

Why, though?

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

@FerretCivilization? Any ideas for a more compact version?

Alright, @FerretCivilization? Is 54.54 kN much more reasonable for those drones?

Ferret Civilization

01:03

It's not the kN it is the designs that have been drawn up to contain a fusion reaction are rather big themselves. So to use real designs for this would not be compact.

Future Historian

Oh.

Well, in that case, any alternate propulsion methods for subrobital flight for the drones, AND atmospheric flight?

While also being capable of reaching Mach 8 at higher altitudes?

Ferret Civilization

You could still use fusion and just say like with everything else they use, it is more advanced than what we know so far.

Future Historian

Well, I am not willing to use handwavium, you know.

I just want to know if we can do it with current physics.

Ferret Civilization

It is not handwavium, you are taking what is an idea of what could come and work and making it true. Just like you did with the aliens and going near the speed of light.

Future Historian

Oh.

That makes sense.

:P

Future Historian

01:50

@FerretCivilization? Just out of curiosity sake, how can a suborbital plane work today?

Especially for military transporation?

Ferret Civilization

Suborbital, like a never landing airplane or something?

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization. Subrobital as in: can reach orbital altitudes, but its trajectory could potentially mean reentry into the atmosphere.

Ferret Civilization

Probably go the way of the Concorde, doable, but just not economically feasible over time.

Future Historian

Well, this is meant for MILITARY purposes.

As in: for use in the Invasion of Earth.

@FerretCivilization? Any alternate propulsion systems for those transports or forget it?

Ferret Civilization

Ah not for humans, okay. Really just need a lot of propellant and engines powerful enough to get it up and keep it up while not relying on what current airplanes do.

Future Historian

02:02

@FerretCivilization? How powerful?

Ferret Civilization

You'd need nearly the same amount of power to achieve orbital velocity and such.

Future Historian

Oh.

So, is the fusion thermal rocket we originally planned still good?

Or not really?

Ferret Civilization

Yeah.

Future Historian

:D

Future Historian

11:26

Test.

@FerretCivilization? So, the dust has cleared, but they are still not finished reentering Earth's atmosphere. Sikes wakes up to the sound of a V-22, and I am thinking of what to do next.

As in: how can he hope to restore contact with the rest of his unit before the Visitors descend on the planet?

@FerretCivilization?

One more thing.

List of United States cities by population

The following is a list of the most populous incorporated places of the United States. As defined by the United States Census Bureau, an "incorporated place" includes a variety of designations, including city, town, village, borough, and municipality. A few exceptional Census Designated Places (CDPs) are also included in the Census Bureau's listing of incorporated places. Consolidated city-counties represent a distinct type of government that includes the entire population of a county, or county equivalent. Some consolidated city-counties, however, include multiple incorporated places. This list...

See these cities?

Well, I want to know: since this is their CURRENT population, how many of those cities by 2024 will exceed the 1,000,000 mark?

Enough to guarantee bombardment by the Visitors?

Future Historian

11:48

@Shalvenay?

Any US major cities on that list that could have the 1,000,000 or more people by 2024 that are not the ones that ALREADY have them?

NOTE: When I ask about that I mean cities that are currently less than 1,000,000 or more inhabitants.

Which one of those cities (at least in the States) could POSSIBLY get to that 1,000,000 mark by 2024?

Future Historian

12:43

Test.

Future Historian

13:39

@FerretCivilization? So, wake up to a V-22 Osprey passing by. What to do next? Have the Osprey land and deploy Marines or have Sikes pass by a wrecked Humvee and try to contact his superiors after grabbing an M16A2 from a dead California National Guard driver?

Future Historian

15:08

@James?

5 km/s projectile vs graphene composite body armour = how many shots to penetrate?

One or can it sustain more than one shot from projectiles going that fast?

The only reason I ask.

You might want to see this:

Bulletproof vest

A ballistic vest or bullet-resistant vest, often called a bulletproof vest, is an item of personal armor that helps absorb the impact and reduce or stop penetration to the body from firearm-fired projectiles- and shrapnel from explosions, and is worn on the torso. Soft vests are made of many layers of woven or laminated fibers and can protect the wearer from small-caliber handgun and shotgun projectiles, and small fragments from explosives such as hand grenades. These vests often have a ballistic plate inserted into the vest. Metal or ceramic plates can be used with a soft vest, providing additional...

James

15:27

@FutureHistorian modern (unless it has changed in the last 5/6 years) body armor plates are a ceramic kevlar weave.

Future Historian

Well, this is a prototype, though.

It came into limited active service in 2023, and is basically more of a proof of concept.

So, @James? You think that this prototype can sustain a 5 km/s round?

Or not really?

Because most marines still use the ceramic kevlar weave, but a few regiments in the US Marines AND other US military branches already have limited use of the new armour to test it out.

It is not standard issue, though.

@James? One more thing. If you read the article, the test in 2014 specifically pointed out that a needle-sized projectile going at 3 km/s (2 km/s slower than Visitor projectiles, not to mention smaller than those) would not be able to easily penetrate graphene.

And that needle is supposed to be ~28.3495 grams.

The Visitor projectiles are 2 kg, if that is even possible for infantry weapons.

@James? What is the mass of your average rifle bullet?

Especially the 5.56 and 7.62 mm rounds anyway?

Future Historian

16:31

@Mithrandir24601?

You are good at biology, correct?

Because turns out that I have to reconsider the biology of the Visitors.

And I am not sure if an upper and lower torso is redundant.

James

@FutureHistorian no idea. not a ballistics expert.

Mithrandir24601

@FutureHistorian Nope - I'm rubbish at biology :P I'm doing a physics PhD (with a tad of computer science)

Future Historian

Well, anyone here who can help?

With biology at least?

Oh, @AndyD273? You are good with extraterrestrial biology, correct?

AndyD273

16:54

@FutureHistorian Sure, I'm an expert at anything you can't possibly fact check.

3

Future Historian

Well, I want to ask: remember Kepler 452b?

AndyD273

That's a planet, right?

Future Historian

Yes, a real one at that.

So, is the following good:

The Visitors have four extremely muscular legs, a natural exoskeleton to sustain the higher gravity from Kepler 452b, they can basically see visible light, but they also have a protective layer in their eyes' internal structure to protect them from volcanic ash, since eruptions there are more frequent compared to Earth, they have an upper and lower torso (which I have not decided on what their functions are, though at one point, I thought the upper torso contained the brain of these things and possibly a few organs, while most organs needed to function are in the lower torso, though if that…

sphennings

@FutureHistorian Sure why not.

Future Historian

They also happen to have some sort of natural way to filter out volcanic ash from the air in their spiracles.

sphennings

16:56

Write something good using it.

Future Historian

Not to mention that the exoskeleton is probably weaker for these Visitors, given the fact that most of them on board the spacecraft, which humans may as well call the Leviathan, while the officers like one of the Visitor PoV characters were in cryonics when in an interstellar journey.

sphennings

The thing to remember is that the worst worldbuilding can be forgiven by a compelling story. The inverse isn't true.

Future Historian

That makes sense.

I just want to be realistic with the story AND the worldbuilding.

Kind of like a ying-yang duality between the two.

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian So your question is, can I see anything obviously wrong with what you have figured out?

sphennings

Why? You're writing fiction.

Future Historian

16:58

More or less, @AndyD273.

@sphennings. True, but it is HARD SCIENCE fiction I am working on.

sphennings

Tell us a good story. Focus on that first. You only should add worldbuilding details if they improve the story otherwise you're telling not showing.

2

Future Historian

As in: hard science fiction is NOT with the hard label if science is not accurate to a degree or consistent.

James

@sphennings This is good advice.

Future Historian

:D

sphennings

Don't set out to write a hard science fiction story.

Future Historian

17:00

Well, I already detailed out six human story arcs and three Visitor story arcs.

So.........I have that covered.

sphennings

Write a story. If that story requires hard science do that. If it doesn't require it don't worry about it

Future Historian

I just need to make sure they are consistent within the story and keep the science to 98% accuracy at minimum.

:P

sphennings

It sounds like you have more than enough ideas.

AndyD273

Nope, I can't really see anything that I'd call foul on with any of that. But I'd say that unless it becomes important (like if they do an autopsy and it actually matters) I wouldn't put too much effort onto mapping out their internal organs.

sphennings

Ideas are worthless.

Everyone has ideas.

I have hundreds of ideas every day. They are banal.

Gryphon

17:01

@sphennings You're optimistic :)

AndyD273

Brain and heart maybe, just so you know where lethal kill shots will be, but otherwise it's not really important

sphennings

@FutureHistorian Start writing one story. Finish that story.

Future Historian

@AndyD273? You just gave me an idea.........

Autopsy, hmmmmmmmm?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian First thing I'd do once I got an alien body back.

sphennings

@FutureHistorian Depending on how much you've written it will probably suck. That's ok. The point is to write a story.

Otherwise you're just inspecting your naval. Which is great occasionally but your story ideas are only worth something if you turn them into stories.

Future Historian

17:03

Well, as much as the Visitors rely mostly on robotic troops, they did deploy ground troops with meat and flesh. Perhaps, one of the characters manages to return a dead Visitor or even a live Visitor specimen to a military base that is still active by the end of day one and the kinetic bombardment of Earth.

They just need to survive Day One first.

:P

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Mobile field lab

Future Historian

Perfect....................................

laughs evilly

Now, I wonder to what extent their precautions will go.

You know: hazmat suits, obviously.

But during the autopsy, what kind of precautions can I expect from a human doing so?

AndyD273

Just look up the requirements for any level 5 lab, and throw in guards with flamethrowers at the ready, in case the body starts getting frisky once they start cutting.
They aren't going to have time to make something custom, so it'll be stuff that already exists, unless someone got really paranoid and decided to put a first contact contingency in place years ago, just in case.

sphennings

@Gryphon The value isn't in the idea. It's in the execution.

Future Historian

Well, what about a live specimen by comparison? @AndyD273.

Ah, much better.

AndyD273

17:14

@FutureHistorian Hmm, could go a couple ways... Either try to open a dialog, or test to destruction...

Future Historian

Well, I meant in the context of an interrogation.

AndyD273

Probably try to open a dialog first, to see if a cease fire can be brokered

Future Historian

And if not.......?

Besides, you still have a language barrier.

AndyD273

See if you can figure out what hurts it, what it's weaknesses are

Future Historian

So, you kind of need to understand their language as well, if you wanted to communicate with them.

And they do NOT speak English, Russian, Chinese, German or the like.

Unless you are an AI.

AndyD273

17:17

@FutureHistorian There are ways around language barriers, like math and stuff, as a start.

Future Historian

But that does NOT count.

@AndyD273? So, pull an Arrival?

Like in the film?

Or is it more complex than that?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian It's a place to start

Future Historian

Oh.

That makes sense.

Then again, the Invasion of Earth lasts two months before the whole planet is overrun.

Not sure if they have time to teach a live captured Visitor the native language of his human captives.

AndyD273

And it might be unwilling to even start talking, which is when you turn it over to the lab people to see how to see how to hurt it

Future Historian

True.

Oh well. An autopsy scene should be fun in later chapters.

Though then again, I basically have nine story arcs, each character being assigned a specific chapter, so if I want to capture a live Visitor, one of those arcs should involve his interrogation by human captives during the Invasion.

Actually, now that I think about it, if Sikes captures that Visitor.................... chuckles evilly

@AndyD273? How possible is it to translate brain waves into sounds?

Or at least text?

Bellerophon

17:30

With our technology? We can make them into arbitrary text very easily.

Future Historian

Well, could that be used during the interrogation of our Visitor captive?

Bellerophon

Could be but it would be pointless.

Future Historian

Why, though?

Oh. Right.

No brain map.

Hmmmmmmm?

Even worse for the Visitors, since we just recently became aware of their existence and mainly because they showed up here without asking.

:P

So, @Bellerophon? How useful will that be early on?

Because the point is: basically try to use that technique until we figure out how to communicate with them more easily.

Which will not happen before the two month time limit modern civilisation has.

So..............

:(

Bellerophon

@FutureHistorian Not useful.

Future Historian

Any other ideas for how we can communicate with the captive?

Besides the Arrival approach?

Bellerophon

17:36

If they set up the GPI they can speak our languages.

Future Historian

Exactly, but........remember: most Visitors by the time the GPI is established probably do not speak any human language.

It took some time for them to translate the Internet to their language, and that took a while ever since they ditched the antimatter deceleration stage in orbit around Saturn.

It would take EVEN LONGER for us to do the same to them.

Gryphon

They could just get lucky and capture one that does speak their language, but that's rather stretching plausibility.

Future Historian

Exactly.

It would have to be from the VERY TOP of the Visitor force during the Invasion.

Gryphon

If they raid a command post?

Future Historian

Like: a captive like that would be a high value one and one the Visitors will NOT take lightly.

@Gryphon. This is before the GPI.

While they are still doing their initial Invasion.

Gryphon

17:39

Yep, so they don't' catch one that speaks English (or whatever)

Future Historian

So, how long to translate their language(s) into any of our languages?

After all: they had AI advanced enough to translate our languages based on the information they got from the Internet.

We lack that.

Gryphon

Longer than they have. Unless they have some pretty impressive computers, he's talking most of the time (???) and they record everything.

And we likely don't have any text, which would make it easier.

Feeds

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

How small can a population be with regard to genetic diversity? survival population genetics I'm working on creating a species that favours small families for a number of reasons, and have no interest in 'breeding as much as possible'. As a consequence, their population size is small. But how s...

Future Historian

@Gryphon? You mean harder?

Gryphon

I meant having text would make it easier, so yes, it would end up being harder for us.

English is stupid.

They would have language learning tutorials, tons of text, AI, and massive amounts of information. We have one guy who's a prisoner who probably doesn't want to talk to us. I'm pretty sure it's hopeless.

Future Historian

17:44

Still, by the time we learn the basics, most of the world's conventional armies are already gone, correct + civilisation will have already collapsed by then?

Gryphon

Yep, that's my prognosis.

Future Historian

O_O

Gryphon

We're pretty much doomed all around.

Future Historian

Well, in that case, I am giving my character permission to shoot him if he refuses to cooperate.

2

@Gryphon? At least conventionally, yes.

But remember: 10 years later, and we have global resistance already in place against the GPI and their Visitor masters, which is basically composed of local militias, guerrilla movements and what little remains of Earth's conventional armies.

The Resistance, I mean.

Gryphon

Well, government and almost all militaries are doomed. I guess us as a species isn't though.

Future Historian

17:47

Not yet, at least.

As a species, we are done IF we fail to stop Directive 13 from being executed (the contingency plan to kill off humanity in case they get too out of control).

By "too out of control", I mean think French Revolution.

So, we fail to prevent them from executing that plan and humanity is dead.

Gryphon

I see. This is an extremely cool story btw.

Future Historian

Thank you.

:P

Gryphon

Preferably French Revolution with something a little more advanced than guillotines.

Future Historian

I meant as in: the Bastille attack part.

Not the Reign of Terror.

Just the part where humanity practically starts to revolt openly.

Gryphon

I know. It was a joke ;)

Future Historian

17:51

Oh and question: would biological alteration of generations of humans born post-invasion in the GPI city centres following the attempt to impose Visitor culture on the pesky humans, along with Earth's biosphere be reasonable?

And as part of the long-term objective behind the gene therapy clinics, in addition to their short-term PR benefit and medical benefit for humans living in the city centres?

The city centres being basically specific cities that were rebuilt after the Invasion based on their "cultural, economic, historical and/or political importance". So outside of city centres, it is a post-apocalyptic Earth.

Gryphon

I could see that happening. Assuming Visitors don't actually care about what we want.

Why do they keep us around anyway? We're not that great a workforce.

Future Historian

Well, the only reason any of that stuff to keep people happy is done is mainly for PR reasons and to twist the narrative for their propaganda machine.

@Gryphon. That is the thing. They will keep us around IF we do not openly revolt.

If not.........RIP.

Basically, ideological reasons.

This particular group of Visitors thinks that it is their birthright to "civilise" other intelligent lifeforms, whether they like it or not.

Not every Visitor is like that, but.........you know. The leadership in this group is operating under that ideology.

Gryphon

I see. I had been wondering what their motivation was. Interesting ideology. Certainly believable, too.

Future Historian

Besides, the Visitors themselves are basically ideologically and culturally distinct, even though most of them have practically deviated in some form biologically as well from the base species on Kepler 452b.

And "Visitor" is just the human name.

The native name is the Xwlnnr (pronounced Ewvielnier).

Gryphon

They obviously have different vocal cords (or whatever), if they can pronounce that easily.

Future Historian

17:58

In one of their languages, it means supreme children, which is basically tied to one of their religions.

Especially since that particular religion, which is a trinity, with the main deity being Xwlyn (pronounced Exvielin) translating to supreme mother in that language I previously mentioned. The other two deities being Kyxapyt (pronounced Kyxari) and Vuxtpow (pronounced: Wuxtrav) respectively.

The former translates into eternal guardian and the latter translates into great reaper.

In fact, I actually wrote down a prayer to Xwlyn in said language.

clears throat

Xwlyn, tawxl val-aw taxhuuk. Rahxik taxhaak wyl-aktol kuaxhi. Rawa-Kixilmu Vatkaaxh! Akshim! Transliteration: Exwielin, taviexl wal-av tachuuk. Rashik tachaak vil-aktol kuashi. Rava-kixilmu vatkaash! Akshim! Translation: Supreme Mother, bless us with your light. Protect us from the darkness with your noble warmth. Guide us towards rebirth! Akshim!

So, what do you think?

The last part is kind of like "Amen" in Christianity, mainly because I couldn't come up with anything better.

Gryphon

So, you have a creator (Xwylin), a guard/protector (Kyxari), and a destroyer (Vuxtpow). Even with my limited knowledge of world religions, I'm looking at Hinduism here.

Although those tend to be considered aspects of the same god.

I think.

Future Historian

Well, in this case, it is a bit separate.

Gryphon

How much is this language developed?

Future Historian

Still in the early stages with the writing system.

Because of its pictographic and logographic hybrid nature.

I just tried to use Latin text for how to pronounce it.

And I need to point out that the "transliteration" is just how to pronounce it.

Gryphon

18:14

Wow, that's ambitious. Latin text is obviously the most readable, so that makes sense. (There's not really anything else you can reasonably use).

Future Historian

Well, I have some of it physically written down on paper.

I just do not know how to translate that to a computer.

Besides.

I can just have it physically written down with a transliteration at the bottom of every pictograph/logograph.

Below that transliteration, I just translate it into English.

Future Historian

18:30

Now to get back to the novel.

First novel of the Visitor series, that is.

Future Historian

18:41

@FerretCivilization? With the coordinates I sent, downtown San Diego is a giant crater, hmmmmmm?

Ferret Civilization

20:00

No it would not turn it into a crater, just a mess.

James

You make a crater in San Diego and you end up with a bay...

Gryphon

20:58

@FutureHistorian Unicode may have something. There are only so many shapes you can make with a few lines, and Unicode has got most of them down.

dot_Sp0T

22:21

@FutureHistorian create your own TrueTypeFont with the necessary symbols

Shalvenay

23:11

hey there @Green @James @Mithrandir24601

Mithrandir24601

23:22

@Shalvenay Rytsas! How're things?

Shalvenay

alright here, as for you?

Mithrandir24601

@Shalvenay Wrecked :P But really good :D

Shalvenay

heheh

Mithrandir24601

It turns out that Shaolin monks are, unsurprisingly, insane and utterly brilliant :D

Shalvenay

of course :D

hey there @JDługosz

JDługosz

23:56

@Shalvenay hi

@Gryphon so true. It's difficult to come up with a simple “character” shape (like for an alphabetic script) that hasn’t already been used by some culture.

Shalvenay

@JDługosz btw, re: the transmutation scene -- given the background of the char setting up the apparatus, building some type of fusion apparatus that could kick out say 1mol/min of neutrons is not out of the question

(but thanks for the conversation nonetheless :)

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