The Factory Floor

shatterspike1

01:17

Well not endless. It's still beta, people are going debate absolutely everything.

BESW

01:38

I'm already seeing a lot of the MST3K Mantra ethos seeping into policy debates. Sigh.

kprovost7314

02:34

Did anyone see that open world on the new Zelda game?

Liath

07:19

I've got to stay out of that software question or I know I'll start writing specs and starting GitHub projects...

DonyorM

07:34

lol. There seem to be a lot of programmers here

BESW

08:07

Isn't that true of most Stacks?

DonyorM

08:41

I guess so, I've mostly been on Stack Overflow, so I wouldn't know.

Tim B

That would be why :)

Stack Overflow is how a lot of people find Stack Exchange as it is the original and biggest

BESW

From Mystery Science Theatre 3000 theme song:

Tim B

@BESW What's a MST3K Mantra ethos?

BESW

> If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax."

It's also often expressed as "A wizard did it," meaning the attitude that working in a fantasy setting absolves the writer of any need for internal consistency or logic because everything can be justified through handwaves that "it's magical."

I think both attitudes are actively poisonous to the basic assumptions this Stack is founded on.

Tim B

Right, for what it's worth I agree with you

"A wizard did it" can be a valid answer, but it certainly shouldn't be the default answer.

BESW

08:53

In RPG culture there's a concept often called "Rule 0," which is that the gamemaster is the final arbiter of the world and the rules: he can create and abolish mechanics and declare that something happens in the story without needing to justify himself.

Even in game systems where Rule 0 applies (and it is not as widespread a conceit as many think), RPG.SE answers which boil down to "You're the GM, just say it happens" are demonstrably useless.

I think that here, like there, we should work from the assumption that the querent knows they can declare something to be true by pure fiat and is asking us for alternatives.

3

Tim B

Sounds good. You should put that up as a mission statement :)

Liath

@BESW you should see some of the geeky answers we get on Movies!

BESW

@Liath Do tell!

(I occasionally answer questions on scifi.se--usually stuff to do with old Doctor Who--so I've seen a tiny bit of the overlap with movies.se.)

DonyorM

So does anyone else do PBP RPGs?

BESW

I've dabbled in Storium and run quite a few campaigns in RPG.SE chat rooms, but neither is probably what you've got in mind.

I know several of the folks who frequent the RPG.SE main chat do play-by-post RPGs regularly.

DonyorM

09:07

Cool, that's good to know. I haven't done much chat

Generally stuck to the main site

BESW

@DonyorM I... am on that chat so much that I got automagically defaulted to room owner last year.

DonyorM

@BESW Haha, nice

Liath

09:26

@BESW I'm trying to find the one where someone analysed the SQL used Lisbeth Salander's hacking... maybe it was somewhere else now I think about it?

Liath

09:39

Shameless plug - chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/17257/worldbuilding-software did I mention a new project is a bad idea? ;)

Tim B

@DonyorM I do online RPGs, using maptools for actual sessions rather than play by post though.

Mourdos

09:58

The right PBP might draw me in, but I find it unlikely

much prefer the virtual tabletops

BESW

Since my current systems don't use maps-and-minis at all...

Liath

11:54

@Mourdos don't worry about your english - as long as people can understand what you're saying other people can edit and tidy your post. It happens on StackOverflow all the time!

Mourdos

@Liath I'm not sure what that comment was in reference to?

Liath

12:24

@Mourdos I was back reading - maybe it was someone else who wanted to answer something. Never mind - ignore me!

Mourdos

12:36

@Liath That's fine, the sudden and unexpected comment about my English being terrible confused me for a bit. I wondered if there was a confusion over my reason for not liking PBP games :P

Chad

14:09

Am I the only one concerned over the direction this SE has taken this early on? Lots of bad subjective questions and lots of off topic questions.

Vulcronos

14:20

There are some, but when I commited to this site I expected a lot of subjective, speculative questions that would be answered with logic and occosional history/science.

Liath

14:39

@Chad I wouldn't say concerned - there have been a few but the questions are pretty much what I was expecting

After all I think the "How can this happen?" "How could this have occurred" are likely to be the core of WorldBuilding

githubphagocyte

@Vulcronos I agree that subjective questions can be useful as long as we have objective answers.

Chad

15:13

@Liath That is very concerning to me.

githubphagocyte

@Chad I like questions that say "starting from these first principles, what kind of world will emerge?" but if we exclude questions along the lines of what @Liath suggests then we are very unlikely to have enough activity to get to public beta. I think we are going to see a lot of reverse engineering questions. We can answer these with "this could happen given the following initial conditions" or "this is very unlikely to happen so your world will be fantasy for these reasons".

Chad

I do not necessarily mind reverse engineering questions if they are focused. It is more of the I want to do XYZ so how does that play out? Questions that bother me

Take the destroy the dyson sphere question. If that was what is left and how can i exploit that I think it would be on topic and answerable.

2

Q: Settings formed by Uncontrolled Terraforming of Venus and Mars via Portals

If two circular portals of 2 meter (arbitrary) diameter were created allowing uninhibited flow between surface atmospheres of Venus and Mars, what would be the environmental effects on the two planets? My thought process was inspired partially by both xkcd and the games Portal and Portal 2. I ...

for that one If it was this portal has been open long enough now that it has balanced out what does mars look like what does venus look like? That would be on topic I dont think the currect one is.

Liath

16:39

@Chad, I see what you mean - pull a few out into meta to discuss

2

Bobson

17:05

I've started pushing for a brainstorming tag specifically for "This is what I want, how do I get there" questions, and leaving the "this happens, now what?" questions as off-topic.

They're both open-ended, but the latter is just speculation.

The former has a defined goal. I'd say the dyson sphere question is the first kind, and the portals question is the second.

githubphagocyte

17:20

I wouldn't want to exclude magic from the site, but it seems to be almost a default answer. I want people to be able to ask questions about magic, but when I see questions unrelated to magic being answered with "what about magic" I worry about the impression this will give of the site.

3

Michael Kjörling

17:37

@githubphagocyte I agree. I know enacting any sort of policy with regards to how to answer is very hard, but I'd personally rather see answers being science-only-based by default and involve magic only if that is explicitly asked for.

Otherwise, we might as well rename the site to MagicWorlds.SE.

If I get stuck in worldbuilding for a detective story (just to take an example, not saying I'm working on that or that I'm stuck on it), I don't want to ask about it and be told "well, if you have shapeshifters, and invoke magic X and Y, then you can cause Z to happen by doing A, B, C and D, which requires this very specific magic system I'm about to outline...".

githubphagocyte

@MichaelKjörling I agree. The "building" part of World building suggests that there is a structure, so even in a world that includes magic, there still needs to be a system of rules and properties. Building a world rather than just picturing one.

Michael Kjörling

Or building rather than simply making it up as you go along and hoping it turns out coherent.

Looks like we don't have a meta question pertaining to that. Let me see if I can type one up.

githubphagocyte

I wonder if this needs a new meta discussion. There is already meta.worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/56/… but I wonder if we need a separate question about not answering with magic unless the question invites it

Michael Kjörling

I think we need a separate meta discussion about this. Working on it.

githubphagocyte

I typed that the same time... Yes I would like to see a meta post provided it doesn't become a duplicate

Michael Kjörling

17:43

I don't think it will, but even if it does, that's worthwhile.

githubphagocyte

For your meta post, a question with a few magic answers is worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/128/…

Michael Kjörling

~~I don't suppose you have some good specific example questions which illustrate this?~~

Haha :D

githubphagocyte

:)

I'll see if I can find some more though. That's the one that really made me want it discussed

Michael Kjörling

Please. Having a few examples is always good, even though I think the matter can be discussed without them if necessary.

Chad

17:56

yeah when my dad did not want to explain something to me when i was young he would just say it was magic... that irrates me still to this day. suggesting magic like it is a real resource to be developed is just lazy

Michael Kjörling

0

Q: Should our default position be that answers should be science-/logic-based, rather than magic-based?

We are seeing some questions which receive answers that deal with magic. There isn't anything wrong in building worlds where magic exists, but there are two main issues that I can see: Magic systems differ from world to world. No two writers are likely to come up with exactly the same magic sys...

discussion answers

@githubphagocyte @Chad ^^^

If I keep spending all my time on the Meta site, I won't earn much rep on the main site. ;)

githubphagocyte

18:13

@MichaelKjörling rep only has value if we get to public beta, and I think activity on meta is a big part of how they judge whether a private beta is sufficiently successful. So keep it up...

Michael Kjörling

@githubphagocyte There is also the ability to focus the scope. The Digital Preservation SE suffered from that; different groups had different ideas for what DP meant, and from what I understood, that was a large part of the reason why that site was killed. I don't recall if it made it out of private beta first or not, though.

Donald.McLean

@MichaelKjörling Rep is just an illusion.

Michael Kjörling

So if we want WB SE to have any chance to succeed and go public beta, we have to focus the scope and determine what should be on topic and off topic.

2

githubphagocyte

Yes that too. Meta is really important.

Michael Kjörling

@Donald.McLean Says the guy who has what, 15k rep network-wide? ;)

Seriously though, I agree. Still, I like seeing people finding my contributions useful and relevant.

Donald.McLean

18:16

@MichaelKjörling Which is a mere pittance compared to many people I know.

Michael Kjörling

@Donald.McLean Take a random sample in the mods chat room. Probability is pretty high that at least one has >50k network-wide. I only recently breached 10k on one site (and not even the one I'm a mod on!).

Donald.McLean

I have to say, I like ham as much as the next guy, but seems odd to have an entire site devoted to it.

Michael Kjörling

@Donald.McLean There is a lot of overlap especially with EE.SE, but there's also a lot of questions that fit there which don't really fit elsewhere on the network. And the site is doing reasonably well, especially given its relatively narrow scope.

Donald.McLean

@MichaelKjörling Sorry, but that was a joke. You were supposed to reply with a comment about how many great sandwich recipes have been posted.

Michael Kjörling

@Donald.McLean Silly me. Here, have some bacon. It's Canadian.

2

As long as nobody proposes spam.SE, I'm happy.

Donald.McLean

18:23

@MichaelKjörling I once worked in a field that had a disproportionate number of amateur radio operators. But now I'm an ordinary software developer.

Michael Kjörling

@Donald.McLean Let me guess, it had to do with some sort of signal processing? As in DSP.

Donald.McLean

@MichaelKjörling No, it had more to do with being in Army intelligence (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…)

Michael Kjörling

18:45

Well, that effectively killed all discussions @Donald.McLean.

Donald.McLean

This is a site about World Building, that means there are (theoretically) an infinite number of legitimate chat topics. Pick one.

Chad

@MichaelKjörling lol im over 50k network wide

And I have deleted 2 10k+ accounts

@Donald.McLean On the other hand, having a site devoted to Bacon seems completely valid!

githubphagocyte

19:12

At this stage where it is vital that we define what is on topic, would you vote to close this question?

I want to get some feedback before I decide, and either way I think this may need another meta discussion.

Chad

@githubphagocyte I did

Michael Kjörling

@Chad VTC is still 1 rep, so I doubt it :)

Chad

I think its just on meta so it may be that we dont have it there like we do on regular site

githubphagocyte

@Chad that's my instinct too. I just wanted to see if there were any arguments that could change my mind first, in the interest of cohesion.

Michael Kjörling

Right, edit privileges work differently on meta sites.

Donald.McLean

19:16

@githubphagocyte It boggles that anyone would think that was on-topic for this site.

Michael Kjörling

@githubphagocyte I think I'd say it's seeking to determine the specifics of a particular character in a particular world. There was a meta discussion about supporting expanding previously created worlds and as I recall that received some support, but I get the feeling that that particular question is too specific to be about worldbuilding. My gut feeling would probably be to VTC to migrate to Anime.SE.

Though I will admit I haven't read through the wall of text in detail.

githubphagocyte

@Donald.McLean @MichaelKjörling if it didn't already have answers I would just vote to close, but I wanted to see if I was missing something since it had 2 answers and no close votes. I've now close voted.

Michael Kjörling

@githubphagocyte If you feel a question is off topic, then don't mind existing answers, just vote to close.

If you feel it needs discussion, bring it up on Meta.

githubphagocyte

The question poster seems to be asking whether real 6 and 12 year olds are any different from each other, which is even further off topic than "could a 6 year old be maintained at that physical and mental age"

Chad

@MichaelKjörling If the question here was I want to add a far off land to this world based on this theme... what features should I include to be cohesive I would agree. that question is about the story not the world

Michael Kjörling

19:19

I asked for clarification and so far nothing:

Is this about a 6 years old human, or a 6 years old something else? If the latter, you may want to look up the Star Trek species Ocampa: they generally don't even live to become 12 years. — Michael Kjörling yesterday

Chad

I think maybe that needs to be the line in the sand for us. If it is about the world its on topic if its about a specific story or character(s) then it is off topic.

Michael Kjörling

@Chad Sounds reasonable to me, and fairly easy to reason about when trying to decide whether to vote to close a question.

Let's have a meta post to that effect and see how it flies.

(Yes, I'm all for using our Meta. It keeps us from reiterating the same question over and over, and it serves as a record of what the community decides and what the arguments of either side is. Chat is fine for coming up with what we need to decide but the ultimate decision should be made on Meta.)

githubphagocyte

I'd be happy to accept questions that ask whether a given story is consistent with a given world, but I wouldn't object to that being off topic either

Yes a link to a meta answer with plenty of upvotes says much more

Maybe we need a close reason of "contains the phrase "so f***** cute!" "

Chad

@githubphagocyte I am with you there. I was thinking questions about the story, that would fall into the question about the world I think

@githubphagocyte I think we need an auto 5k rep penalty for suggesting the use of magic to explain some phenomena in a question.

2

Michael Kjörling

@githubphagocyte Terrible examples, but I see the distinction being "how old can people get in World X?" being allowed and "how old does Character X in World Y get?" as not. So world questions would be allowed but specific-character ones wouldn't be.

@Chad First time ever SE allows reputation to go negative.

githubphagocyte

19:26

@Chad yes the 6/12 year old question doesn't ask for it in terms of the world, just a question about human children.

maybe the 5k penalty should come off rep from other sites too...

Michael Kjörling

@githubphagocyte Instant minus 5k rep on ALL sites?

Chad

@githubphagocyte Its like asking why the southpark kids are still in 2nd grade after 15 years

The answer is because its a cartoon

Michael Kjörling

@Chad Because he ran away from home and never received any support from his peers?

Chad

@MichaelKjörling I love it!

Michael Kjörling

We'd have to figure out how to make it not happen if the question is tagged "magic" however. By someone other than the person posting the answer, obviously.

Chad

19:42

@MichaelKjörling If you had to see one of your best friends killed every week you would be regressed to 2nd grade too :p

Michael Kjörling

12

Q: How would societal development be impacted if humans were not an apex predator?

We are used to a world where humans are basically an apex predator; we don't really need to worry much about becoming some other animal's next meal. If that wasn't the case, and humans had to be wary of the possibility of a predator either lurking nearby or openly hunting them, how would that af...

environment evolution society

I guess it's funny in a way since we have so much discussion about list-type questions, and I actually spent some time thinking about how to express that question specifically so that it would not invite list answers only.

That doesn't mean an answer laid out as a list can't be a valid answer (and one of the answers posted is to some degree a list answer) but if a list answer goes into some depth about the why and how, and not just the what, it doesn't necessarily have to be bad.

Vulcronos

Well, since magic is always a good ansswer, I could add it to my list if that helps. :;

Michael Kjörling

@Vulcronos Only if you see my question asking for magic-based answers.

You certainly could add a bit of magic here, though:

2

A: Should our default position be that answers should be science-/logic-based, rather than magic-based?

I totally agree. Unless the question says there is magic and gives a decent description of what is possible, I assume we are sticking to real world physics. Science fiction and steampunk stories have enough variety already, adding magical answers with no knowledge of if magic exists or how is j...

Like, telepathy or something.

Vulcronos

I know. Magic!

Tim B

20:48

@githubphagocyte That's the same question made me ask the meta question about science-based tags

githubphagocyte

21:02

@TimB Looks like meta is going to be a busy place for this site. Lots of clarification to be done...

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