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8:48 AM
9:06 AM
10:02 AM
Q: Nominate "Pro Tempore" moderators to help guide the site through beta

Nick WildeAs some of you may know, StackExchange sites get "Pro Tempore" moderators just before the private beta goes public. These moderators are chosen by the StackExchange Community Team rather than being voted on due to the generally small size when the site moves from private to public beta but still ...

@MichaelKjörling I've nominated you, I think we want you as on of our mod:
A: Nominate "Pro Tempore" moderators to help guide the site through beta

Nick WildeI would like to nominate: Michael Kjörling Michael has been active on the meta with multiple really nice answers - a favourite of mine is his answer on tagging related to space topics. Michael also has prior moderator experience and is in general a a user we want active here and I thin...

I think I'm a little out of my depth in Worldbuilding. I'm already slightly intimidated by the detail and fullness of some of the answers being given. I shall just have to learn.
10:24 AM
My luck this comes into beta just as I'm starting two and a half months of running RPGs in existing worlds.
10:38 AM
@Mourdos there's a place for those asking questions too. Keep at it!
Q: What should we have as our elevator pitch (name)

DonyorMOk, following "The 7 Essential Meta Questions of Every Beta" what should we have as our elevator pitch? We want the pitch to be creative, catchy, and descriptive. It needs to catch the eye of new comers, and let them know what the site is about. SE has some guidelines at Stack Exchange Naming for...

check that out and think about it
@NickWilde Thank you for the nomination. I'll have to give it a little thought, but I absolutely am not turning it down immediately at least.
11:07 AM
I'm going to copy a few of the appropriate proposal questions into the meta
11:47 AM
[bites nails on asking first question]
@BESW Care to post a link so I can downvote it? ;)
Have at it!
Q: Population range for a dying frontier town

BESWI'm designing a town in the Ozark mountain range circa 1871, and am unsure what population size to give it. River Bend was a mining town (they briefly struck diamonds) founded high in the Ozark mountains and far from other settlements, about 1845. But the mine's been abandoned for ten years (sta...

I'm in the playtest for the Dresden Files Accelerated Edition RPG, and one of my groups wants to take this contemporary urban fantasy and run it back 140 years.
I'm sitting here going, "...Okay, I saw a Clint Eastwood movie once."
Why are we voting this down? I'm interested in the reasons?
Q: What different forms of space habitat are there

Tim BWorlds and habitats doesn't just have to mean naturally forming planets. You also have a multitude of other options with a massive range of scales. When building a world the first question is what sort of world it is, and for a sci-fi universe what sort of habitats could humans potentially live i...

11:58 AM
@Mourdos Open-ended list question?
That what I thought.
But at the same time, its answers are useful. Do we think its salvagable?
Not unless it supplies some way for us to differentiate one answer from another as being more or less useful.
@Mourdos I voted to close it as opinion-based, because no one answer can be more factually correct than another. I also downvoted it for the same reason.
@MichaelKjörling, @Mourdos Thoughts on my question? How can I improve it?
@BESW I'm not quite sure how I feel about the Ozark mountain range town question. Was the mine the only thing keeping people there? Keep in mind that people in general don't move around a whole lot once settled. (Lots of time and capital went into that house!) What makes it that they wouldn't try to make do somehow else?
12:04 PM
Haruum. These are questions I have not yet asked myself.
The question was agreed as an appropriate topic on the proposal site, though I think it may be a little over specific.
It's no more open-ended list than for example software recommendations
I think if you talked about it in terms of a WW town and how fast it might die out, that might work.
@TimB We are not talking about your question. We are talking about Wild West Towns. Just for clarification.
@Mourdos I'm very much against the notion that "too specific" is a valid close reason. Good answers to "too specific" questions provide context which let people generalise the insights to their own situations.
I know, I just came into the chat room tho :p
12:06 PM
Q: Why are "shopping list" questions bad?

Pëkka This is intended to be a canonical reference question that we can point people to. Maybe even a FAQ. My question was closed for being a "shopping list question", even though it was absolutely on topic and programming related. Why?

I think there is the beginnings of a good question in yours @BESW but it needs some more details to be really answerable. If the land lends itself to farming, for example, people might not necessarily need to move at all. Particularly in that era moving far was rare.
@BESW I agree with you, but at the same time I can see how overly specific questions for Worldbuilding is bad.
Well, it's in the Ozark mountains; that implies forestry and trapping as secondary economies.
I'll add that in.
@BESW I have zero idea about the geography and otherwise. Don't assume people are willing to research just to figure out what you're asking.
The entire concept is based around a vast plethora of things, I would say that describing situations (as you just added above :P) is good, but going "its here and this is the exact" situation doesn't help other people as much.
12:08 PM
I did consider whether to post my question since I know on many other sites (i.e. stack overflow) it would be off topic. But then software recommendations are off topic on stack overflow. - read the "shopping list" q&a and it does not apply on this case.
@MichaelKjörling The Fairy Nuff will provide more detail.
@TimB With software recommendation questions, voting can take place based on how well suggested alternatives meet the requirement critieria, and acceptance can be based on which answer suggests the software the asker finds best meets their needs. How is one list answer to your question more "correct" than another?
the one that adds the most value. If people know of a form of space habitat that I am not aware of then their answer adds value
@MichaelKjörling Would a community wiki list answer be useful as a resource? Just to play devils.
the sum of answers to the question are what is interesting
not the individual answers
12:09 PM
@TimB Exactly, which unfortunately makes it a somewhat poor fit. Community wiki might work actually, @Mourdos.
answers don't have to be "the one best answer"
the point is the knowledge contained on the page
I have a feeling that Worldbuilding is not going to be just a Q and A site, but also a great place to build up a set of resources.
not one perfect answer
So I think we should encourage more CW answers on here.
Particularly, I feel, good subjective questions inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”.
12:12 PM
@MichaelKjörling More details provided.
@BESW I like that more.
As I pointed out in my comment to @TimB's question, that question does not seem to be possible to provide a single, authoritative answer to. CW should be avoided in general but for cases like this, it might work. I'd still ask myself what sort of problem the question is seeking to solve, however. "Gee, I've got these four tribes beating each other over the head with stone clubs, I wonder where they will be in 50,000 years?".
@BESW Much better IMO.
Thanks! I'm still in the process of poking this thing into existence; River Bend was just a name three hours ago.
Have a look at the "shopping list" meta question and you can see that none of the reasons apply to my question - for example one answer says:

Shopping questions ask

What X should I use?
What is the best X?
What are the possibilities for X, and their advantages?
Which is better, X or Y?
None of these are the case in this question. It's asking for a list of known or theoretical space habitats. That's a definitive and finite non-opinion-based resource.
@TimB I think the "shopping" thing is a side-street; I only linked it because your first comment in chat seemed to be comparing your question to shopping questions. I don't think it's a productive comparison.
12:16 PM
@TimB "You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." What is the problem that your question seeks to solve?
If you were designing a space civilisation then what options are there for where the people live?
In this case I'm interested in the answer because I read a lot of sci fi and most of the ideas have been done to death.
When a justification starts with postulating about "if you were" doing something, that's going to make people think there's not an "actual problem you face."
and how many of these questions are actual problems the person asking is facing right this second - considering we're seeding a beta
Without an actual problem to which the answers can be applied, the Stack Exchange sorting system breaks down and it stops being a neatly-organised pile of questions and answers.
@TimB I just asked one.
@MichaelKjörling accepted-answer tag? I assume you mean this to be a question that is not in fact a question, but a statement?
Background: I'm looking to edit the tag description
12:20 PM
@Mourdos I take it that your question has little to do with my quote from the help center?
But yes, Let's be careful about accepting answers early is more a statement than a question.
@TimB Part of the purpose of the private beta period is to establish site scope. If we don't want to deal with list questions later on as well, we should take care to downvote and close them now. Having questions closed during the private beta is quite normal as the site is establishing its scope in more detail than what was done in the Area51 proposal.
@MichaelKjörling Would you be happy for me to say as such in the tag description?
@MichaelKjörling I agree. However I think you have a reflex "list, close" response here which is not the right policy
@Mourdos Say what in what? (Please reply to the correct chat post... it makes life easier!)
@TimB That's why it takes five close votes to close a question. (With some exceptions.)
@TimB "List" is not a close reason, but it's a flag because list questions often have problems adhering to guidelines which does result in close reasons. In this case, the question doesn't have any way for voters to sort out useful answers except pure "I like that" opinion. That's not a list problem, but it IS a close reason.
What about making a CW answer so that we can list them?
12:28 PM
@Mourdos I'm disinclined to set a precedent of CW.
The Great SE Overlords just recently removed all automagic CW conversion, and said quite clearly that CW is not something which should be seen often.
@BESW In all honesty though, that was converting the auto-convert-to-CW to a moderator flag, because in the past any post seeing ten edits was automatically converted to CW. Even if that was only the poster's own edits.
> With suggested edits now in place, you could argue that the removal of reputation from voting is now the only function of community wiki. Unfortunately, this means it is often seen as a magic switch to allow questionable content.
> Many sites propose using community wiki to allow content that is on-topic and useful, but can be considered borderline or questionable in other ways. Someone notes that a certain class of question has problems, and proposes using community wiki as a quick fix.
> If we haven’t said this enough already, questions rarely, if ever, need community wiki. What about answers? We removed the ability for users to make a question community wiki, but left the ability for users to make an answer wiki.
> The intent of community wiki in answers is to help share the burden of solving a question. An incomplete “seed” answer is a stepping stone to a complete solution with help from others; an incomplete question is a hindrance and an obstacle to getting a solution as no one understands the inquiry. It is in answers that the goal of community wiki, for the community, by the community, shows its truest colors.
That seems very clearly targeted at the kind of thing we're talking about, and saying "Oooh, probably not."
Further discussion should probably go to meta.
I hate to say it, but the second part of that seems to be targeted at incomplete questions where people can't be bothered to ask their question properly, rather than at questions which by their asking require editable lists as new idea come up?
I'm honestly still not sure how the question under discussion can be considered complete, as it presents no criterion for evaluation.
blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/04/… "Collaboration isn’t a rare thing on our network – the whole system, from posting and editing to voting to moderation, is based on the interaction of multiple users to produce a final product. Community wiki is for a special scenario, something built not by the expertise of one individual, then improved or iterated on by a few others, but rather something created by the concerted efforts of the community as a whole."
Took a little while to dig that out because something makes Firefox incredibly slow on the machine I'm on particularly when there's SE chat going on.
12:38 PM
I wouldn't object to it being wikified but I agree that it's a tangent to the discussion...the real discussion is whether it's a useful question that can generate useful answers
The question is on topic, is asking for a well defined scope, and is of interest to me (and hopefully some others as well).
Right now it looks a lot like "What's your favourite ____?"
at what point does it say favourite?
or preference
or opinion
its asking for a purely factual list of potential space habitats
I said it looks like it, not that it's identical to it.
the fact that the answer comes in the form of a list should not automatically make a question invalid. Lists are a good way to present some information
And I'm not seeing how "asking for ALL potential options" is in any way more SE-like than "asking for potential options you like." You've given no criterion for evaluating them except "this exists."
12:41 PM
I have not once said "list bad." Please understand that.
Your first reply said it was downvoted because "open ended list question"
its not open ended as space habitats is a finite set
so that only leaves list question
Yes, exactly: Open-ended. I'm quite familiar with exploring the limit of usable list questions.
"Finite" is not a useful demarker for this conversation. "Small," perhaps.
This conversation currently has three threads.
what makes it more open ended than "How would societal development be impacted if humans were not an apex predator?" or more list based/open ended than "What are some ways mass changing of terrain in a short period of time could occur?"
both of which are currently up voted
I have issues with some of those too.
We aren't talking about them, though, and relative excellence isn't a flattering argument.
12:47 PM
It provides context though. As you say the questions being asked now set precedents for what questions are accepted in the future.
The first topic: Should this question be closed because it's a list and for no other reason? No, obviously not. List is not a close reason.
ok, agreed
Second topic: Is this question too broad or too opinion-based? Yes. Because it provides no criterion for evaluating answers except "this thing exists," it is asking for an exceptionally large list which no one answer can be expected to encompass--and, crucially, we will never know if an answer is complete. One answer can only be superior to another because it has more content, not better content.
Therefore the SE voting system is going to start to break down, and it's probably only useful as CW.
Third topic: Will this be useful as CW? I dunno. I'm REALLY cautious about setting the precedent, but I'm open to the idea if it's carefully considered.
Ok, contesting those points. 1. Opinion Based...no its not. They are either space habitats or they are not. I'm not asking for best or preference. I'm asking for concepts. Either the concept exists or it doesn't.
Too broad? That's a trickier argument as it's a judgement call but considering I was able to list all the possibilities I could think of off hand in my initial answer it's clearly not a list that is going to extend to hundreds of items.
Because you're not providing any other criteria, it's waaay too broad. It is literally impossible to have a demonstrably complete answer.
12:53 PM
which is also the case in 90% of the other questions on the site
That's exactly where list answers get a bad rap.
@TimB And I haven't been voting much because I'm really leery of that.
A site like this is speculative...it has to be
since most of the questions boil down to "what if"
That's reductionist.
by which you mean?
GOOD questions boil down to "if these variables and this goal, what solution within these parameters?"
If you strip out all the bits that make a good SE question a good SE question, you'll always come out with a bad SE question.
That's like saying programmers.se questions all boil down to "How do I write X program?" It's probably true, but it's not useful.
12:57 PM
It is when the argument you use to close one question applies equally to 90% of the other questions
RPG.SE and Arqade.SE are "how do I play X game?"
if living in space and wanting to stay alive what solutions allow me to survive and build a substantial population
I can reword the question to that if you want....
it's the same question though
How about adding a few more parameters? Like "assume Earth-normal humans," maybe.
That makes sense
I suspect that if you really think about it, you'll find that there are unspoken assumptions in your question which, if made explicit, will make it much less open-ended.
I think MANY of the "90%" you cite as precedent are actually XY problems, which yours might be if it weren't totally theoretical.
And frankly, that's the basic problem. It's an "I'm just curious" question on a practical-application Stack.
Scifi.se has an inane number of problems which stem from its nature as a Stack founded almost purely in idle curiosity; in fact, some of its citizens revile "story ID" questions, the only real "problem-solving" element of the site, as clutter.
If you had a problem to solve, you'd be able to drop in more parameters like "assume our contemporary understanding of physics holds true" or "assume no currently unknown materials."
And you might even have a context like "I'm designing this for a video game, so it has to be able to withstand plasma gun fire" or "I'm going to tell a story about a monkey who lives in the ventilation system, so it's gotta have a ventilation system."
1:06 PM
I like the question better after the edit, actually. For convenience: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/154/…
It's still a little list-y but it's not as explicitly asking for a list. This way it potentially invites answers that describe why a certain solution might (or might not) work.
Such answers are votable. IMO.
Those are fair points
Aye, I think it's still a little shaky but answers can now be evaluated based on something other than "how many options they serve up."
Although we're seeding a beta, that doesn't mean we should force out questions just for the sake of having more questions.
Quality counts for a lot right now.
And like I said, I'm easing myself into the site still; I've been too busy to stay on top of it, and I'm not sanguine about a lot of what I see.
@BESW That. I rather see one or two really good questions which inspire great answers, than five mediocre questions. When the site goes public beta, we want people coming across it to find high quality content right off the bat.
@MichaelKjörling I saw this on RPG.SE when D&D 5e came out recently; lots of really AWFUL questions for the sake of bloating the tag.
As was said earlier, the site won't really be as objective as e.g. Stack Overflow. But while the site might have a little less objectivity than some of the other sites, we can certainly inspire good subjective questions.
1:11 PM
RPG.SE (which is where the lion's share of my two years of SE experience lies) has had a great struggle with subjectivity.
We actually still allow system recommendation questions, which are basically shopping questions, because it's a MAJOR part of the community experience.
Yeah, I tend to browse around RPG.SE at times as well (though don't think I've ever contributed anything there) and see a lot of questions that boil down to subjectivity. That doesn't mean they can't be good questions, it just means one has to be a lot more conscious about them.
I really want to talk about the northern countries with regards to this question. But I don't know enough and would need to do research (which I can't right now)
But sys-rec questions have to follow much much stricter guidelines than any other kind of question on the site.
@Mourdos System recommendation.
"I want to play X kind of game, what system should I use for it?"
1:13 PM
To paraphrase a quote I once heard.
" If you have to force it, its probably shit "
I like the way its gone into the various consequences and possibilities of each step
@TimB Just FYI, I'll leave my votes and comment on your question as they are right now, and look at it in a few hours when I'm home from work and can really look it over without too many distractions.
@MichaelKjörling We have a lot of meta space devoted to GS/BS and how much we need to impose Stack-specific guidelines on them in order to get good content without blotting out half the Stack's topics.
@MichaelKjörling No worries (or rush). I'm discussing it because I'm interested in the discussion and the result of the discussion as it could make big changes to how the site is used....not because I'm worried about -4 rep points :)
@BESW I suppose RPG and WB have at least one thing in common. They both deal heavily in imaginary subjects. The difference is what "science" might be drawn on to answer those.
@TimB I think having the discussion early on is good. I also think that someone ought to summarize all this into a meta post. I'm not up to that for now.
1:19 PM
@MichaelKjörling You might be surprised at how often RPG questions are based on trying for "realistic" interpretations of fantasy rules.
@BESW "What would happen if someone were to sleep under half a meter of dirt every night?"
@MichaelKjörling [face/palm] I do not know why that is my third-highest-voted answer. I do not want it to be in my top five most-voted answers.
Because it was awesome.
lol, I think I replied on that question too
or maybe I just read it
I remember the question
I only read the question. Not sure I didn't leave a comment, but I didn't answer at least.
1:22 PM
(It was second-highest until today, when it was surpassed by an actual, useful, experience-based answer! [dances])
I should ask more question for you to answer. Such as " Why is sleeping on a platforum supported by 10 foot poles is a bad idea"
Nooo, must upvote dirt sleeping
@Mourdos Hill giant dire were-beavers.
@BESW Who said anything about we're-beavers? ;)
Hm. I thought I'd left a comment on that RPG question, but it doesn't seem to be there any longer. Maybe it was deleted.
Hmm? Which one?
Sleeping under half a meter of dirt.
1:24 PM
Yeah, I think its comment vomit has been mass-purged at least three times.
I'm pretty sure I left a comment there along the lines of it'd take a lot of time for the party to first dig the hole, then fill it back in, then dig you back out in the morning.
RPG.SE is also relatively strict about answers in comments compared to most other sites I've visited.
That's okay for me, though. I know comments are supposed to be ephemeral. IIRC it was a point I felt should have been made in an answer, but it wasn't an answer in itself.
(We underwent a comment-awareness programme earlier this year.)
I'm fairly certain I wrote that as a comment on one of the answers. We'd need a site mod willing to spend the time to know for sure, though.
1:27 PM
A year ago, that'd be quite possible. Our mods are a little more reclusive now, though.
...There are ten tabs open for reference and research on this River Bend setting, and it's a Fate campaign. I have a problem.
This worldbuilding SE is either going to be an outlet for my compulsion, or the death of me.
I think death.
We will miss you @BESW
[sigh] I should stop unnecessarily building up the setting for Tuesday's game and focus on statting possessed wild boars for Saturday's game.
...spoilers. Don't mention that in RPG chat.
I'm thinking about asking some question, but I forgot them.
Damn, it was a good one as well, I think.
@BESW don't confuse open-ended "list" questions with "shopping list" questions. There's some small overlap, but by and large the problems are distinct.
1:43 PM
@Shog9 I didn't. Please notice that my comment is directed toward a comment which was comparing the two.
I provided the link because it's not a comparison which was flattering or supportive of the main topic, regardless of actual relevance.
@BESW gotcha. Wasn't sure from the context whether you were agreeing or disagreeing
Ah yes. I wanted to ask for a world in which you play a western marches style fantasy games you often have to have a situation in which the further you travel the more dangerous the enemy you face. Is there a way in which condition could caused this to have happened. After you have delved out a way, how do you explain that things continue to get more dangerous.
I'm not looking for answers which use a focual point as to where the world gets less dangerous, but for reasons as you why it gets more dangerous the further you get out *and keeps doing so*.
I have no idea how to ask that in a concise way, and I have a feeling it is too open ended.
@Mourdos Wizards.
Does the world have a single settlement, or multiple? What happens when you near Settlement 2?
1:46 PM
Shoreline wizards, mostly.
@MichaelKjörling "Western Marches" is a specific reference to the idea of a boundary between "civilised" and "wild" territories.
I should probably downgrade world to "territory" or "continent"
I will link western marches to the question and make sure that it is given due prominence.
@BESW So once you cross into "wild" territories, if you keep walking there are no "civilized" territories ahead?
Its a common problem with these games that an "event" happened that made it more dangerous as you reach its focal point.
As you move away from the civilised and into the wild, encounters become progressively more dangerous without any point at which one again encounters civilisation.
@MichaelKjörling An effectively infinite and ever-more-perilous wilderness without end.
The question I'm trying to ask, but failing is "Why wouldn't the level of danger just plateau", are there reason why that might happen?
@BESW Within reasonable travelling scope of the campaign
Its a question about how to explain an artificial requirement of the world.
1:50 PM
Hence "effectively," and also why such games inevitably break down in a D&D-type system: Teleport and plane shift trivialise Western Marshes.
@BESW Good question if we can find the wording?
But yes, ignoring that, it's a fun and potentially good question.
Although I'm afraid that without a strictly defined setting the answer will be variations on "Wizards."
With a couple of comments being variations of "why don't you just stay put?"? :)
I'm going to specifically exclude "wizards" as well as "a mcguffin did it"
I'm trying to find a reason as to why a world might have evolved such, or become such (if it wasn't like that to start with)
See, I'm hoping that someone might come up with "escalation" as a response
I can actually give a non "wizards did it" answer to htat question
1:53 PM
It is also a non "world shattering event" answer?
My initial idea is that there IS a focal point, but it moves: always away from the party further into the wilds. Maybe some kind of Titan whose mere presence warps and distorts his surroundings.
Rather than discussing answers, can we discuss the question?
This is for seeding after all.
No, that isn't as much fun @Mourdos ;)
I think the question is fine if you tidy up the wording (and explain what western marches is etc)
1:54 PM
I want to get people thinking about other kinds of questions. Instead of "What if we did this?",maybe think about "what caused that?"
its the same problem a lot of RPGs have - as you level up all the enemies level up too and it is rarely explained why/how
Worldbuilding seems the place
I'm with @TimB for now. It doesn't seem a bad question as is but does need a bit of cleaning up and explaining the terms used.
I'll think on it
@MichaelKjörling I'm pretty sure I explained the question and then immediatly asked for that exact help.
My other question is going to be along the lines of "How would castles of been designed if large strong flying creatures existed that could be ridden? "
With splashguards.
1:58 PM
underground :)
that's a really interesting question actually, I've had that discussion quite a few times with people
Combine the animal housing for cavalry steeds (appropriately scaled up) with WWI/II anti-aircraft fortress design (modified for available materials).
I actually had it with Igor, that is how we designed a lot of the castles in the original Northern Frontier game he was running.
Though we also went with the assumption of 3rd and below PF spells
So natural earth and stone could be moved around
which means that enemies could make tunnels up to your walls quickly
and then have to hammer through
as a result, each floor had its own outer wall or choke points.
The top floor was basement level, and was where the horses and general stables was, with a ramp entrance.
...I'd just go for the dirt-filled moat with landsharks.
I like this
When I ask it, you should add that
Anyway, it's past midnight, so goodnight.
2:03 PM
2:54 PM
So http://meta.worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/52/hypothetical-situations-and-broad-questions
Should I still raise a meta post that says "Magic" is too broad a term.
Along with "Technology"
It depends on the question to my mind - it is being used too broadly a lot right now I agree
Shall I just answer that post with something about closing all question as too broad that do not describe "magic" or "technology" suitably as a general viewpoint?
Or is it worth making it its own discussion?
I think with tags its probably easier just to see how it goes for a week or go and let things settle out a bit
Bleh, I tried to narrow down the type of magic in my question, I was rather interested on ideas for how that would be regulated.
3:52 PM
hey, lots of names I recognize
hi all
Someone decided to downvote my meta post because "its not a question"
Rather than a self evident thing we need to actually do.
@Mourdos eh, I feel like meta is a bit... unsure of itself on that point
hey @BESW
He awakes again.
@KRyan I agree with the sentiment of asking question, but there are occasionally things that need to be said. If someone disagress, they can say so.
4:38 PM
Hi all.
Are example answers (this and @trejder's, primarily) on-topic for this question? It seems to me like the OP is asking for reasons why, not examples. — Jerenda 19 hours ago
^^^ That's correct; I'm not looking for examples pro or con, but an explanation. Of course, disputing the premise (which would involve bringing examples, though I'd say in quantity) is a valid answer. But I'm really trying to get at the why. Any suggestions on how to bring that out better in the question?
Hmm, he's asking for one example but it's still from a vast field
6:11 PM
There's a reason meta posts don't attach any rep to them.
6:49 PM
4 hours later…
11:00 PM
We are going to have endless days worth of arguments on meta, are we not?

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