The Factory Floor

SCPilot

12:35 AM

Well, library will be closing soon, so I best get going. Nice talking with y'all!

Green

2:13 AM

@SCPilot No problem!

Shalvenay

hey again @Green

Secret

5:44 AM

[Magic] Word playing with jargon can have an unexpected effect to spells

dot_Sp0T

9:31 AM

@Bellerophon many thanks :D

dot_Sp0T

11:00 AM

Hmm I just cleaned up a 2 year old question because it ended up on the frontpage. I'm terrible

@Bellerophon I did heed to your comment about the connection between Spoorcaneers and rail-pirates not being too clear, I hope that makes it better :)

@AndyD273 @Green I took the points you folks brought up about a railnetwork being obviously controlled by authorities and what not into consideration, trying to formulate a paragraph about that not being possible due to the size of the network and size of organizations; please feel free to tell me that Im still terrible at your earliest discretion

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Train-World: The shatterpated machinations of Spoorcaneers - Tossing & Turning engineering transportation ...and while I'm at it: You've another 37 seconds to finish up and get back here before I gotta throw her in reverse... Acting Navvy on the Marube @83kph and ~4km distance from a forth...

Worldbuilding Meta

12:43 PM

1

Q: Should we rename [insect] to [insects]?

On the Main Site we have a tag named insect. Normally tags should be plural, not singular. See Tags cleaning: singular vs. plural for more information. The tag wiki excerpt even says: For questions focused on insects. And the full tag wiki says: For questions specifically focused on ...

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Eh, the part about turning is still a little weird. Maybe replace "turning" with "reversing" since a train can't turn. Though if it is 8 tracks wide, why couldn't they just switch to another line that isn't going to impact with the oncoming train?

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 because there might not always be a working switch, or a usable track next to the one you're on :) Also, but that's not in the Q because it seems like ballast, most of these takes are more likely to happen on rails that are not on the 6-8 track segments, e.g. sidetracks to and from lost towns that, e.g. bypass destroyed stretches or similar - there might even be parts of the network that are indeed controlled by big players and tolled or similar (have you played / read Metro 2033?)

but 'reverse' def is a better term

Got by chance a better idea for the title 'Tossing & Turning' part? that's really more of a placeholder :/

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T "Reversing the Trolley Problem"?

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 is trolley a common term?

AndyD273

It's a play on the "trolley problem"

Trolley problem

The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person tied up on the side track. You have two options: Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. Pull the leve...

dot_Sp0T

12:54 PM

?

@AndyD273 also I think we should consider typing up the current stand of the collab story for the blog so the whole thing can get some tracking again

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Well, the google doc I started is all caught up to when the room froze. I didn't add what I typed yesterday yet, but will soon, and no one else has added anything.

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 I've been going through what you read. Right now I just don't see myself able to really contribute to the situation; aka I'm pulling a blank

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T I know that's happened to me several times over the course of this thing. I'll probably add more later. I guess at some point something will strike a spark

dot_Sp0T

Are there any colloquialisms or wordplays or nursery rhimes on reversing a train at 80+ kph? (or reversing anything)

thing is, i need the part about the turning in the title; as I want to make 1 or 2 more questions on the Spoorcaneers (e.g. one about techniques/technologies to spot oncoming trains and/or prey)

AndyD273

1:09 PM

@dot_Sp0T The only train thing like that which I know of is the word math problems involving trains. "One train departs New York at 40 kph, and another train departs Chicago at 60 kph. How long does it take for them to smash together in a fiery explosion of death?"

But they aren't turning?

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 they probably accepted their destiny

AndyD273

Actually, why turn/reverse? Why not mount some kind of derailer system on the front of the train, drive down a track where they expect to see a train coming toward them. Then they can just hit the brakes, and wait for the oncoming train to run into the derailer, flip off the track, and then plunder it.

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 because an oncoming train is most likely heavier than theirs

also if a derailing system was commonly used I can imagine that other trains would just start mounting something like a long spike to at least destroy the train that derails them

also fully derailing a train is not that easy afaik

AndyD273

How to Derail a Train | Jason Asselin

►

I'm probably not the best person to give input on this idea... I might be able to suspend disbelief if I was reading it, but if you ask me to think critically about it, I just see to many holes. Sorry :)

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 don't take me wrong, but a) these seem to be used to keep short slow trains from entering main tracks - or so comments say; and b) there's even a comment saying that the whole thing would just be flung off the tracks at any higher speeds - which I would concur

@AndyD273 seeing holes is good

AndyD273

1:32 PM

@dot_Sp0T Yes, but I don't know if I can easily give you what you want. I mean, in terms of the sandbox I'd just replace the word turn with reverse, since a train can't turn. In terms of a question, I don't really see why the pirates would want to use a train to attack other trains. But assuming they did, they have to get several hundred tons to go from 80 kph one direction to 80 kph the other direction in less than a minute...

So it has to have some massive braking ability, and some way to get all that weight back up to speed very fast. And physics is not your friend in this situation. mystatesman.com/news/transportation/…

I guess you could just say that on single track stretches that trains always go a lot slower, since there is not central control or time tables, and so the chances of seeing another train coming down the track are dangerously high

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 I thought I actually did say that :/

gotta recheck what I wrote

@AndyD273 you're giving me lots already, I'm very grateful for that

AndyD273

"An example of the latter would be two trains moving towards each other, both at ~80kph." That is not slow speed :)

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 is it not?

:/

need to reduce it then

AndyD273

I mean, sure it is in kilometers per hour, so seems slow, but they have a combined speed of 160kph

and only 4km seperation

If you were driving down the autoban at 160kph, how long would it take you to travel 4 km?

dot_Sp0T

80Kph to 0Kph in 20secs Flat by Karjat Pune Passenger at Kamshet, Central Railway

►

@AndyD273 autobahn; it's a conjunction between auto - car, and bahn - lane, roadway

AndyD273

1:45 PM

Sure

I figured I was missing something there

Anyway, I probably don't have the vision for this question :)

dot_Sp0T

in the video apparently a passenger train brakes from 80kph to full-stop in some 20secs give or take, and as it looks some 300-600m (which is about half a kilometer) - I figure breaking is less of an issue for the bigger trains than the smaller ones

that's why I wrote up the Q in the first place

AndyD273

Gotcha. Well, maybe it could be done.

dot_Sp0T

but again: all the input you're giving about cars breaking, etc. is very valuable - because it is stuff I must find a way of addressing in order to not have answers discrediting the whole thing based on these things that might not even be issues but are perceived as such due to a lack of specialized knowledge :/

there are many Qs on here that get/got that

AndyD273

Very true

dot_Sp0T

but I might nonetheless reduce the speeds in the Question to something around 60-70kph and add higher speeds to the list at the end (shorter breaking at higher speeds > better; or sth like that)

AndyD273

1:53 PM

I imagine they would want to be very cautious, especially if the terrain isn't a perfectly flat prairie that you can see all they way to the horizon. Any surrounding hills, trees, etc are going to keep you from seeing other trains, meaning even less warning.

or maybe it's a run they do often, and "no one comes down this way but us, so we don't see the advantage of going slow."

dot_Sp0T

that indeed; but that will be part of the spotter question coming eventually, how to allow the pirates to plan ahead (e.g. pulling along a balloon?)

AndyD273

I guess it could work both ways

stationary observers?

does radio technology still exist?

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 could be rebuilt, but tech that was above ground is mostly fried; so radio receivers are cheap (because everyone can build one with a bit of wire and a battery), but senders/beacons are expensive due to their complexity

but that again is only implied because I fear to overburden the Q otherwise

AndyD273

if so it might help solve both problems. Say all the trains have a CB radio, and they all use the same frequency. So before heading down a single track they send out a broadcast calling dibs on the track. If someone else is already on the track they can report in their direction and stuff, so the first train knows if it is safe or not. The pirates can listen to the chatter and see where trains are, or even send out track queries to see if any trains are around.

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 there are technologies for managing single tracks that were used e.g. in Victorian England. Don't need a radio; also if at all then there would be a waystation broadcasting when a train passed and at what speed, track they passed - again senders are expensive because complex

but trains having receivers aboard sounds good to me

AndyD273

2:03 PM

OK. CB radios aren't all that complex, and are mostly used for short to medium range.

Citizens band radio

Citizens band radio (also known as CB radio) is, in many countries, a system of short-distance radio communications between individuals typically on a selection of 40 channels within the 27 MHz (11 m) band. Citizens band is distinct from other personal radio service allocations such as FRS, GMRS, MURS, UHF CB and the Amateur Radio Service ("ham" radio). In many countries, CB operation does not require a license, and (unlike amateur radio) it may be used for business or personal communications. Like many other two-way radio services, citizens band channels are shared by many users. Only one station...

dot_Sp0T

You need plenty of transistors and other electronics to build one of those; as well as a microphone, etc;; these things are very fragile in my experience

i mean unless you propose simply using morse code across a wide band; that would be easy in comparison

e.g. just hook up a switch to an antenna to your generator and be done

so I guess morse-code would def make a comeback in that scenario, simply due to its easyness compared to building microphones, etc

AndyD273

3:14 PM

@dot_Sp0T It's also very railroady

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 not that much actually

more wild-western-y

but yeah, telegraph offices - which used morse-code to transfer messages - were often at railway stations

JDługosz

3:37 PM

@AndyD273 one fortyith of an hour, which is well over a minute. The real question is how fast can you stop?

dot_Sp0T

@JDługosz with the right conditions? instantly

JDługosz

I think those passenger trains are designed to have short runs, stopping frequently. So, start and stop with high acceleration. A freight train is the opposite: minimize rolling resistance, means you can't accerate or breake very hard without skidding. Implication: it works for what you design it for.

Maybe they have retractable rubber wheels for starting and stopping, and steel wheels only for steady cruising.

dot_Sp0T

@JDługosz true that, yet if you have the situation that you need to be able to break at sight-distance at any speed (train-world), you will build the trains to be able to do that. Having one or even two dozen carriages will make that very easy because you can have breaks on each and every bogie

while a train with only 1 or 2 carriages has less area for that

AndyD273

3:57 PM

@JDługosz a minute and a half, which is over a minute, but I don't know if I'd say well over a minute... Either way not much time/distance to bring several hundred tons to a complete stop an then back up to speed in the opposite direction. Possibly not impossible... Granted, the opposing train is also probably hammering on the brakes too, so you might not have to get up to full speed in reverse, just enough to stay ahead of the other train.

Now, the pirate train, being smaller/lighter might be able to do it easier, but according to light research a fully loaded freight train will take several miles to come to a full stop even from "low" speed. "The train stops on its own time" was the quote. If two fully loaded trains were to go down the same track from opposite directions, there probably isn't much chance of them avoiding a crash.

So having some way of communicating ahead that they are using a track is going to be very important, and survival of the fittest will evolve trains that have ways to communicate, as all the ones that don't communicate will crash and die.

dot_Sp0T

Regular trains are likely to be scheduled by some means

Also I might or might not have been considering regular trains mounting huge plows to push small issues aside so they can keep going at speed

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T But there is no authority, and the network is so big it's got huge areas that are pretty wild

dot_Sp0T

but that would again not matter for pirates

@AndyD273 e.g. convention; always drive on the right track if you can

that's the way highways prevent cars from crashing

or try to prevent them

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Ah, I thought I read somewhere that a lot of these would take place on side tracks on the way to lost towns, away from the multi-track areas

If there are double rails everywhere, then there is no reason to need to stop or reverse or anything

Everyone stays on their side and no one crashes

Problem solved!

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 well the situation that a pirate must do a full-stop-reverse really only would arise on double tracked environs

Please tell me the question makes it clear that pirates would ride along another train?

AndyD273

4:03 PM

No

dot_Sp0T

I need to add another ascii art

that was not clear?

why then would pirates need to break at all?

oh boy

AndyD273

The question as I read it impies that two trains would be using the same track, and so one train has to stop and reverse as fast as possible to avoid a crash. I never got the impression that they would be on parallel tracks

dot_Sp0T

it's all about the pirates :/

dangdangdangdangdang

AndyD273

But the question is about reversing. Pirates reversing, whatever

dot_Sp0T

argh

AndyD273

4:06 PM

Pirate goes down a track, happens to meet another train head on. If there are two tracks then why would they need to reverse?

dot_Sp0T

i gotta throw it away i fear

AndyD273

I assume I'm missing something vital :)

sorry

dot_Sp0T

no bother

I'll make some ascii art and you will understand

AndyD273

I'm sure that will help

dot_Sp0T

I am sorry andy

AndyD273

4:07 PM

It's no matter to me

Maybe that's why I've been having such a hard time with the whole concept

dot_Sp0T

I'll put it in quick words

Green

Would you want to interview a guy who says "Beers bought for jobs well done"?

(Sorry to break in.)

AndyD273

4:22 PM

@Green depends on the context?

I suppose I might still interview, but it wouldn't buy them any special consideration.

Green

At the end of the Summary section on a resume. I don't care about special considerations. The point of a resume is to get an interview, not to get a job. If someone calls me for an interview then the resume has done it's job.

AndyD273

4:48 PM

Then I suppose it depends on the rest of the resume. I don't drink personally, though I don't care if other people do it, so long as they don't do it on my time, or come in hung over, or whatever. That they put it on their resume isn't super professional, but I understand that some people put a lot of importance on alcohol. And at least they are being upfront about their vice, vs someone that isn't upfront about really enjoying meth.

And I suppose their response to you asking about that line could be very informative about their character

Green

5:12 PM

Oh, hah! I put that on my resume. It intended to indicate that I reward for jobs well done. I don't drink either but I appreciate that powerful effects of acknowledging when a team does a really good job.

Feeds

6:11 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

Can a truth-sensing ability be logically consistent? Tags: logic, aliens Imagine a race of aliens who have the unique characteristic of being able to definitively detect whether a statements are true. For example, one might say to an alien, "2 + 2 = 4" and they would be able to tell you that th...

Pleiades

6:35 PM

Would asking for a general formula to calculate the amount of energy needed to shapeshift between two forms be too broad for the main site? I seem to remember something either here or somewhere else talking about how the amount of energy needed to shapeshift a human to a frog would be enough to explode the planet, and while I can't find it for the life of me, it got me thinking. I know mass and time would be variables, but otherwise ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Green

Are you compressing the matter or shedding it in the transformation?

Pleiades

Shedding it

Green

@Pleiades Shedding is far easier than compressing, for sure.

Secespitus

@Pleiades Pretty sure we didn't have such an answer yet here.

Green

The equation will depend on exactly how you're shedding the matter. How long does the transformation take to complete?

Pleiades

6:38 PM

@Secespitus It might have been a comment on some other question; I remember reading this about a year ago

@Green I always envisioned it varying with the size of the creatures, but I'm assuming it has to be fixed to work with whatever you're thinking. Physics is not one of my stronger skills, unfortunately.

Green

@Pleiades Whatever process you pick is going to involve a lot of heat. Heat tends to cook things. The transformation will have to take long enough that the instantaneous temperature anywhere in the process stays below around 104F.

Go higher than that and you start to cook really important proteins.

Shedding enough water to go from a 70kg human to a 0.25kg frog is going to require evaporating a lot of water.

Pleiades

@Green The frog one was just the example I remember finding a long time ago. I'm planning on sticking with mammals all within relatively(-ish) close size of one another, but that's still good information to keep in mind for sure.

AndyD273

6:54 PM

Hmm, I wonder if you could shed it another way? Say molecules that go from a solid structure to a gas, but without needing heat to do it. As if they all decided to let go and fly away. Then when you want to go from a frog to a person they could just fly back. Saves having to consume your own weight in meat to get enough material to turn back to normal

Green

@Pleiades Honestly, I think the harder problem is preserving molecular order in the organism, rather than "where do I put the mass?"

The biology of a frog is really different from the biology of a human. Mapping the functions of proteins and metabolic pathways from a frog to a human and back is monstrously complicated. I suppose you can just handwave it but usually when trying to handwave transformations like this, you handwave all the really hard problems, not just one small segment.

We're talking about biological processes that shared an ancestor hundreds of millions of years ago. That's a lot of change to overcome.

Bellerophon

9:40 PM

If no one has posted in the story room by half ten my time I will try and move the story on a bit, is that alright?

Shalvenay

10:13 PM

hey @Green

hey as well @Mithrandir24601

Bellerophon

10:35 PM

Also, possible story error, the slug burnt through a tree earlier but the bark is flame resistant.

I've tried to justify it.

Mithrandir24601

11:47 PM

@Shalvenay Ni hao!

JDługosz

@Green its job, not “it is job”. Remember it’s is always it is.

Shalvenay

@Mithrandir24601 how're things going?

Mithrandir24601

@Shalvenay It's been... Busy... It's the weekend now though, so everything will calm down a bit :) The undergrads are now on Easter holidays, so no marking to do next week either :)

Shalvenay

yeah...so...I wonder how much of a strain flying into a "hot and high" airport would be for a dragon (something like Telluride, CO during a heat wave -- it's 9000' up in the mountains, after all)

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