The Factory Floor

12:04 AM

@user8663905 That's the idea!

I wonder if asking about chemical weapons is fundamentally misguided, because people won't want to answer for fear that the knowledge might be misused.

Geo

1:39 AM

I've been reading about question bans. It's interesting. Apparently asking too many bad questions can cause a 6 month ban on being able to ask question that can only be escaped by editing your existing questions to improve them.

I haven't been question banned (yet) but it makes me wonder if I should do something about my bad question. I don't think it's badly written. I think it's just fundamentally asking for too much. It's one of those questions where a whole book could be written to answer it.

It's been put on hold, I edited it some, but I never really changed that fundamental problem. I didn't really want to ruin the existing answers by radically changing the question. But the rules of the question ban make me wonder if I have a responsibility to make the question work no matter how radically I need to change it.

Is it damaging to the site for me to leave a bad question sitting there unedited? Apparently it can contribute to me losing the privilege of asking questions.

Shalvenay

@Geo it isn't anything the site can't deal with

Geo

But still it's my responsibility. I wish I'd never asked the question, but now that I have I am tasked with finding a way to make it work.

I'm trying to think of ways to limit its scope and squeeze it down to something more specific without changing the core of the question.

I would be wrong to edit it into a totally unrelated question in the name of fixing it, wouldn't it?

Journeyman Geek

1:55 AM

yup

Shalvenay

yeah

Journeyman Geek

is it closevoted/or deleted?

Geo

It's On Hold and -3.

When I asked it I was looking for ways to connect human biology to my magic system. That seems 100% on topic. The only issue is that it was too broad, too open ended, too much could be said in answering it.

Instead of asking that, if I were to pick a particular bodily system and ask how that system might be tied to magic, would that be too big a change to the question?

Wait, I've got another idea. Instead of being more specific on the biology end, I can be more specific on the magic end. I can leave the question open to answers regrading whatever bits of biology, and limit the question by giving a detailed explanation of my magic system and what it needs from the biological systems it will be tied to.

user8663905

2:26 AM

Alright, I've found a general form for the "XdN dice, drop Y results" for when Y = X-1.

Geo

@user8663905 That's a pretty specific case, but still it's impressive.

user8663905

For any particular sum Z, the likelihood of that particular sum is (Z^X-(Z-1)^X)/(N^X)

I'm trying to figure out a more generalized equation.

Geo

It looks like when Z=1, X=1, N=1, then the answer is 1. Shouldn't the answer be 0?

user8663905

Remember, this is for when Y = X-1

If X is 1, then Y is 0, and so the result of 1 has 100% probability.

In other words, this is for when you are dropping all but one dice.

Geo

We're suppose to choose y dice, not drop y dice.

user8663905

2:36 AM

Same thing, ultimately. Just subtraction instead of addition.

If you're looking to keep 4 out of 6 dice, then it's the same as dropping 2 out of 6 dice.

Geo

But it still makes the formula wrong.

user8663905

How do you figure? The likelihoods are still accurate, just computed with the consideration to how many you drop instead of how many you keep.

Geo

I guess we should say that it's wrong for Y = X - 1, but it's correct for Y = 1.

user8663905

Also, I have a program that can calculate the probabilities of each result given set Y, X, and N, so if you have any specific setups, I can run that for you.

(It's brute force, hence I'm still looking for a generalized equation)

Geo

Can you plot the probabilities on a graph and match a curve to them?

user8663905

2:44 AM

For a given Y, X, and N, yes, but not for all Ys, Xs, and Ns. Also, it's in MATLAB, so not something I can share, honestly.

Geo

2:56 AM

What you'd really want to do is figure out a family of curves that can be made to match the probabilities pretty well for any Y, X, and N, then make a chart connecting each (Y,X,N) to the curve constants that make the curve match the probabilities, and try to come up with a formula.

JDługosz

@JoeBloggs check out the YouTube channel “Mind Your Decisions”. In this case, it would only take an hour to write a program to simulate all cases and count them. A blog post: dlugosz.com/zeta/?p=452

Shalvenay

hey there @JDługosz

Geo

@JDługosz I decided that I was responsible for fixing any bad question that I asked. No matter how much I want to disown it, it's my duty to edit it until it works, so I've been working on my existing bad question. It breaks the existing answers a little bit, but I think it keeps the spirit of the original question alive.

I got this idea by reading about question banning and how one is expected to get out of it by improving existing questions. That says to me that I'm held responsible for my existing bad questions.

@JDługosz I'm a little uncertain about your comment on my Sandbox question. You leave it ambiguous about whether I should remove the list or not. I have the list there to prevent the question from being too broad. Especially where magic is involved, there's no end to the ways things might be done. Under what circumstances might I not need the list?

Of course I would love to hear about clever ways to design my world other than what I've chosen to ask about, but that's just the sort of thing we're not allowed to ask, isn't it? We need to be specific.

I mean, if I don't pin them down to these specifics, then people could just say, "It's your monster. Make it so that the chemical doesn't need properties X, Y, or Z. Problem solved."

I'm quite certain @sphennings would say something like that.

Geo

5:35 AM

@Vylix commented on my Sandbox question that using a real poison to defeat a fantasy monster would break suspension of disbelief. Could be right? Would people not be expecting real poisons to work on fantasy monsters?

JDługosz

@Geo Or ordinary things work in different ways; like salt or sulpher or other chemicals that have some mystical tradition.

Joe Bloggs

5:55 AM

@JDługosz: first thing I did was write a program to directly enumerate everything, sadly it’s exponential in complexity and I wanted to simulate 50d20, so it very quickly got out of hand.

Geo

@JoeBloggs Was 50d20 really necessary?

JDługosz

@JoeBloggs So use uniform random trials instead of enumerating all possible. It should converge to an answer in a few million rolls. You can estimate the error term without having solved the actual problem, so you can assign a standard deviation and show that it's right to however many decimal places.

Joe Bloggs

I was building a pretty extreme gaming system where multiple people rolled multiple dice into a common pool then took the best of all their rolls. 50 was unlikely but possible, but even with ten dice Direct enumeration starts running into problems.

JDługosz

Also, I'm not sure exactly what the problem is from the message I saw earlier, but if you're rolling a bunch of dice to make one total, you are getting into the Central Limit Theorem.

Joe Bloggs

@JDługosz: getting the standard deviation and expectation is actually a lot simpler than getting the distribution in this case.

But I was interested in interactions of tails, so distributions were needed.

JDługosz

6:01 AM

Isn't it a normal distribution?

Joe Bloggs

No, it’s a bunch of normal distributions with a discrete cut off point that varies depending on the minimum roll in the top x dice.

the Problem is finding the density of the result from adding the top y results of x n sided dice.

JDługosz

Well, even without knowing the error term, just running a few billions of trials you can get presume you're getting quite close to the true results. When you're satisfied with the program, let it run overnight and get way more trials than necessary.

Do you have precise directions of the procedure written somewhere?

Joe Bloggs

I’ve never liked montecarloing if an exact solution should be possible, and like you I thought to myself: it’s just combining normal distributions, how hard can it be?

Then I was down the rabbit hole.

dot_Sp0T

Friendly reminder that there is a little, 90deg, bendy arrow on the bottom right of any post you hover with your mouse. By clicking that you can respond directly respond to said post which makes following conversations a loooooooot easier.

Joe Bloggs

I can send you my code snippets for direct enumeration, montecarloing and the final analytic solutions if you want em.

@dot_Sp0T: not on phone, oddly enough.

JDługosz

6:08 AM

@JoeBloggs If you're already monticarloing, never mind. I thought it would be a good exercise for the pre-release C++17 Visual Studio.

Journeyman Geek

@dot_Sp0T hah. You can also hit the up key until the right one is hilighted

Unless I've got a extension I've forgotten about

dot_Sp0T

@JoeBloggs yes, also on phone. Press your thumb on the message, it will be highlighted - then there's an action bar where the arrow is found.

Joe Bloggs

@JDługosz I ran montecarlos to check my results. It’s still a good exercise: the procedure is: sample x random discrete numbers with replacement from 1-n. Find the y highest and sum them to get your result, ignoring the x-y lowest results.

JDługosz

@dot_Sp0T I just tried up-arrow, and it goes into edit mode.

@JoeBloggs What language/system?

Joe Bloggs

@dot_Sp0T Thank you very much for that!

can-ned_food

6:16 AM

Who else has been writing for alien people, pretensively translated to english or the like, and attempted to convey some of that awkwardness in the dialogue they write?

Joe Bloggs

@JDługosz I used R with the data table package

JDługosz

@can-ned_food How about an entire language based on logic, with an utterly novel system of recording words?

Joe Bloggs

@JDługosz they write novel novels?

JDługosz

0

Q: My “Alien Message” series

This is an index of my posts related to my “Alien Message”. On Worldbuilding Alien message: arrows and sequence order Recognizable natural numbers for alien message? Alien message: “Invitation” On other SE sites Converting rational numbers to an “alien” data format

2

@JoeBloggs I don't think I posted anything about the narrative-order constructs that allow the telling of a story. It's essentially a monad.

dot_Sp0T

^where it is found on pc

can-ned_food

6:24 AM

@JDługosz I've done something like that; glyphs meant to describe thoughts on a low level of interpretation. I meant writing that avoids modern idioms and represents different ones.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food Not I have.

Great, now this is stuck in my head. I have the Karaoke disk. Sang it once, something like ten years ago, and forever stained.

Yoda, Weird Al

►

can-ned_food

Or ‘I not–done’. So, whenever some “alien message” is translated as merely a matter of time, do you always suppose that they discovered the symbols to encode some notations of shared formal logic?

Joe Bloggs

@can-ned_food I once wrote a short little piece on aliens who’s translator consistently used the wrong chicken...

JDługosz

@JoeBloggs I took my Mom's recipe for pineapple upside down cake that had been translated into Chinese and ran it through an online translator back to English. I wish I had kept a copy.

Joe Bloggs

@JDługosz bake you many the good sand.

dot_Sp0T

6:34 AM

^where it is found on mobile

Joe Bloggs

@dot_Sp0T Different OS. Mine appears in the usual place, but only if you press on the post with no keyboard visible.

dot_Sp0T

@JoeBloggs this is the browser version - should be the same on every phone iirc

can-ned_food

/me goes back to writing.

dot_Sp0T

@can-ned_food o/

JDługosz

@can-ned_food Good luck. Hope it's as interesting as what I'm writing. Though I doubt it...

absolutewrite.com/forums/… “Past and Past Perfect — going full Inception”

can-ned_food

6:44 AM

@JDługosz If I were in your position, I doubt I could resist the desire to simply write in my own conlang.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food That's what the "green" language I mentioned earlier is. Full vocabulary and unique way of expressing things in a grammar based on math.

@can-ned_food Or, Which was that a reply to?

can-ned_food

the one on indicating states of active verbs in an Inception–esque screenplay.

one of my languages doesn't even conjugate the actives at all: their equivalent of the pronoun, or an indicative, is modified through 32 or so cases.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food It's a novel, not a screenplay. I'm writing the whole thing in present tense except for transitions between times, and once I have a draft it's easier to poke at.

@can-ned_food Use the reply arrow.

@can-ned_food My "green" language generalizes the concept of pronouns and lets any passage be tagged for referencing elsewhere as a single symbol.

can-ned_food

@JDługosz Pardons, please. I figured context would suffice for a message posted immediate subsequent — I also don't ping if the reply is not all too important.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food Based on math, it has a novel way of expressing time sequence of events and doesn't have tenses in the ordinary sense.

@can-ned_food I agree about consecutive messages in general. But I wasn't sure which you were referring to.

@can-ned_food What that post doesn't show is that the nested flashbacks are erotic in nature.

can-ned_food

6:55 AM

à la ‘sursequent’ versus ‘consequent’

dot_Sp0T

Usually there's a lot more going on in here, so using the response functionality is preferable

can-ned_food

@JDługosz Where is this “green language” described, though?

JDługosz

@can-ned_food Some saved notes, and conversations here. I stopped working on it a few months ago.

Hmm...

@dot_Sp0T Yea, several new messages can appear while I'm typing, so it's no longer consecutive by the time I hit Enter.

dot_Sp0T

@JDługosz you can always retroactively link your message to another one

@JDługosz even after sending it

can-ned_food

@dot_Sp0T Can you show me one of those “pings” by example? Or, does it not?

Bellerophon

7:00 AM

Can't seem to select messages on my phone.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food I shared a file at adobe.ly/2gcBF8Z

@can-ned_food You get a indicator of unread messages, and a loud bang.

dot_Sp0T

@can-ned_food start around here and try following the conversation flow without hovering over the messages to see where they relate to. Also note the timestamps chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/40339291#40339291

can-ned_food

@JDługosz I meant a “retroactive” reference inserted to a message already posted.

Bellerophon

@can-ned_food Like this.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food I don't know if that does any notification, or just adds the linkage.

can-ned_food

7:04 AM

@Bellerophon It worked! The notification, i mean.

dot_Sp0T

@can-ned_food You get notified every time you're linked. And now. And now. And now again. And another time.

JDługosz

Just skimming the file: “In retrospect, it’s obvious, but the use of base 47 was throwing us off.”

can-ned_food

Who wants to see an example of a name for one of my peoples?

JDługosz

@can-ned_food Do we?

@can-ned_food if you could grab that PDF file, I'll remove it again. I just stuck it somewhere, not organized.

Bellerophon

@can-ned_food Me. If it happens before I leave.

Ah well, I'll have to see it when I get back.

dot_Sp0T

7:17 AM

yay, cracked 6k. And noo, still need 1k more to beat @James master of nothing

can-ned_food

@Bellerophon Xe"nƈœ"tuḷ

@JDługosz done

JDługosz

@can-ned_food So you go outside of the Latin character set? You might find existing Unicode marks for whatever you're using straight double quotes for.

can-ned_food

@JDługosz I like the U22 better than the U294 or the like. Considering how little my words look like words already, I thought ʔ would be much too confusing.

At any rate, these people don't speak english, so there is no reason they should be limited by the usual english phonemes.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food There are also marks that look similar to the quote, used for Polynesian languages. Such as in Hawaiʻi. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOkina

ʻOkina

The ʻokina, also called by several other names, is a unicameral consonant letter used within the Latin script to mark the phonemic glottal stop, as it is used in many Polynesian languages. == Names == == Appearance == The ʻokina visually resembles a left single quotation mark—a small "6"-shaped mark above the baseline. The Tahitian ʻeta has a distinct shape, like an ʻokina turned 90° or more clockwise. == Orthography and official status == The ʻokina is a letter in the Hawaiian alphabet. It is unicameral— that is, it does not have separate uppercase (capital) and lowercase ("small") f...

can-ned_food

@JDługosz Yes, I might substitute for one of those, or others, prior to publishing. I use U22 now because it is easier to enter with my chosen keymap.

JDługosz

7:26 AM

Notice the pronunciation in /[həˈvɐjʔi])/ it sounds like the hook character you noted.

can-ned_food

Depends on what typeface is to be used

JDługosz

@can-ned_food If you have poor support, you might need to edit your own.

Secespitus

7:42 AM

Interesting, didn't know this guy had a backup account. Is having backup accounts a thing?

JDługosz

@Secespitus "backup account" is not a thing. Sock puppets are against the rules. Using another account to get around a ban or imposed restriction is against the rules. So what is a "backup account"?

can-ned_food

@Geo The problem with midichlorians is not that they demystified the Force. The problem is that they cornered it: they enlittled it. Tolkien wrote a few things on how to keep distance from the horizons of worldbuilding.

@sphennings Perhaps one of these depowers a wizard? wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antipsychotics

JDługosz

@can-ned_food I have a special supplemental keyboard that I use for entering other characters I like.

Secespitus

@JDługosz Well, I thought he used this account to get around an automatic question ban as I haven't seen any questions on the first account that was used quite often some time ago. The style is definitely the same when looking at the first revisions and the amount of revisions in the questions on the second one. But the second one is a bit older than I would expect, so I called it a "backup".

Though it may be that he was trying to circumvent one of the previous bans with the second one.

JDługosz

@Secespitus what made you suspect it was the same guy?

Secespitus

7:50 AM

@JDługosz The name

And then the revisions

And the style of the second question

JDługosz

@Secespitus He continued to revise his questions using the new account, acting as if he was the OP?

Secespitus

@JDługosz No, the behaviour of the second account is the same as I remember from the first one.

I may be interpreting too much of course.

JDługosz

@Secespitus Well, I forward that to the mod private room. A quick look with mod tools makes me agree, but it's good to have more evidence; tools can be false positives.

can-ned_food

@JDługosz Two keyboards! Yes, that would be the way to go! Alas I've not yet figured out how to edit xkb; when I do, then I'll get to it.

JDługosz

@can-ned_food My second is a distinct USB device, not in keyboard mode. I wrote a simple deamon that watches for activity and then stuffs events in the system (on Windows).

See dlugosz.com/zeta/?p=66 for picture and some more details.

Secespitus

7:55 AM

@JDługosz Thanks

JDługosz

Amazing how it's "trivial" to write that program when their supplied software was utter rubbish.

can-ned_food

8:23 AM

blech. maybe the second keyboard inputs translated scan codes or something.

Worldbuilding Meta

0

Q: About "Is this possible?" questions

Sometimes there are questions where someone asks Is this thing that I just described possible/plausible/credible? For example: No hunger cry from birth, is it plausible? The big problem for questions like this is that the answer is often one big rhetorical shrug along the lines of... ...

discussion

Joe Bloggs

9:19 AM

@michaelk : thanks for moving the TLDR. Didn’t think that one through...

JDługosz

9:32 AM

Hey, I just topped a hundred pages. Time for a break.

Worldbuilding Meta

0

Q: Can the same question be asked twice but in different SE communities

If an in scope question is asked in the worldbuilding community, can the same question be asked in another SE community such as physics if it is also in scope there? If so can these two questions be asked together or should one follow the aother?

support questions

0

Q: Is it possible to review the same answer twice?

Yesterday I reviewed an answer which was flagged for its content and length. Today I reviewed again the very same answer. How can this be possible?

bug

Geo

10:02 AM

@can-ned_food "Keep distance from the horizons of worldbuilding." That sounds fascinating and profound. What does it mean? Where did Tolkien write about that?

can-ned_food

10:27 AM

@Geo I have not a copy of the Letters, but I do remember this much: He was explaining the appeal of Samwise telling Gimli that he would like to learn the history behind the full poem of the Dwarrowdelf cf. The Lord Of The Rings, bk 2, ch 4, § 18. He said, in the letter, that once you reach a horizon in the backstory of a world, that you either show a new horizon or risk losing the enchanting nature of the world.

2

And, gone.

Joe Bloggs

3:27 PM

Is there any way for a non mod to suggest continuing a comment thread in chat?

sphennings

@JoeBloggs It will automatically be suggested by the system after some criteria is met.

@JoeBloggs I don't know exactly what the criteria are.

Bellerophon

If the thread reaches a certain length anyone involved in the thread is asked if they wish to move it to chat.

sphennings

@Bellerophon Is it just length. It felt to me like there was a frequency component as well.

Bellerophon

@sphennings Possibly. I can't exactly remember.

dot_Sp0T

@JoeBloggs you can always just open up a new room and link it in the comments

user8663905

3:58 PM

Hello all

DaaaahWhoosh

o/

user8663905

So, I've encountered a bit of an issue with my most recent question.

Apparently, people tried to first take it down without even giving a reason for why, so I'm dubious as to their intentions.

DaaaahWhoosh

oh yeah, that's the one I voted to leave open

Bellerophon

@user8663905 Link?

DaaaahWhoosh

0

Q: Managing Communication Forms that are not Mutually Comprehensible

Supposing that we have two intelligent species arising on a planet at around the same time. They both are communal, both have the instinct to build dwellings, and both have some form of communication which allows them to convey complex ideas to one another. However, these two species do not come ...

biology society evolution culture communication

user8663905

4:02 PM

Second, people are saying it's off topic, when I can't see how it is, and then others are saying it's too broad and I can't think of any details to add which wouldn't make an answer obvious.

DaaaahWhoosh

I hate it when someone comments that a question is too broad, but then gives an example that might as well just be an answer

user8663905

I had an issue with my first question as well, so I'm unsure if this is par for the course, or if I'm just asking poor questions.

Oh, yeah, I wanted to chew that guy out but it would have been rude to do so.

Like, how is this not about world-building? I'm trying to collect opinions about how a setup like that might affect how the world progresses.

DaaaahWhoosh

I think the question is fine if you want it to be fine, but it seems like I was outvoted by people who did not want it to be fine

Bellerophon

It is about Worldbuilding. It is also too broad.

I don't see any point voting to reopen only so I can vote for it to be closed under a different reason.

user8663905

What specifics could I add which would make it less broad but also still have it remain an actual question?

DaaaahWhoosh

4:07 PM

I've come to the realization that I don't like too broad. I think it's answerable in a narrow way, and making it more specific would prevent it from being useful to others

(in other words, I retreat from the current conversation)

user8663905

Like, if I provide culture details, then that's essentially me saying "This is how they act and behave" and my question is "How would they act and behave towards each other?"

I'm at a loss for what people even want.

DaaaahWhoosh

((if it helps, I still agree with you. But I haven't been very active on WB lately, so I don't know how it works any more))

user8663905

Oh, it's okay, Whoos. I'm just frustrated because of an apparently hostile environment.

Bellerophon

But they could act or behave in many different ways. They could be hostile or co-operative, they could or could not see the other as intelligent. The question can't be answered without knowing something about the civilisations. For example, a human meeting an alien might go very differently to a dolphin meeting an alien.

I think too broad doesn't work on Worldbuilding because Worldbuilding.se is an inherently poor fit for the Stack Exchange model and should never have graduated.

user8663905

Alright, then how about "They both have the instinct to spread and colonize new locations"

That was something I was thinking I might have included in the "dwelling" comment, though, thinking about it, it might not be clear.

Made an edit.

DaaaahWhoosh

4:19 PM

@Bellerophon I feel like if your model of Worldbuilding doesn't fit SE, you probably need to adjust your model

3

sphennings

@user8663905 Speaking as someone who voted to close the question. First encounter communications is a story element.

Geo

Isn't the whole point of a question being downvoted and put on hold to say that the question should be improved? I've read the rules of question banning and people who get question banned are expected to do nothing but edit their existing questions to make them better, yet people are acting as if improving existing questions is a bad thing.

sphennings

@Geo It is when you are invalidating existing answers.

Geo

No existing answer is going to be totally comfortable with any change in the question.

sphennings

@Geo You aren't expected to fix the question. There are questions that are unfixable. What you should do then is let the question go from on hold to closed and move on.

DaaaahWhoosh

4:26 PM

@sphennings it's a story if you know who the characters are. Cultures contacting each other is different

sphennings

@Geo Putting a question on hold is a way to prevent questions that are a bad fit for worldbuilding from getting traction and giving new people the wrong idea of the mores of the site.

@Geo If they can fix the question that's great. If they can't we don't really care everyone asks a bad question occasionally.

Geo

@sphennings None of the existing answers were ever really good answers to the question, before or after it's improvements. It's always been asking for science-based answers about specific biology, and never gotten any. They weren't really invalidated any more by the improvements.

sphennings

@Geo Here is a question that was asked by JDługosz that was closed. It's not the only one he has asked. After this question was put on hold there was a moderator election that he won.

Geo

@sphennings Interesting. Closed but also upvoted. Strange combination.

sphennings

@Geo It's a rather common occurrence. Here is a very well recieved question that was closed as off topic.

The question currently has 157 upvotes.

DaaaahWhoosh

4:32 PM

groundhog day has it beat

sphennings

@DaaaahWhoosh I wasn't on the site then.

Geo

@sphennings On yeah, that is totally off-topic. There's really nothing that can be done about an off-topic question. You can't really change it to be on topic. But it always seems like an opinion-based question can be fixed by tightening it up.

DaaaahWhoosh

@sphennings it's a great question. By which I mean it's a bad question, but is an interesting world to think about

sphennings

@Geo Sometimes, sometimes not. Often in the process of editing the question to make it not opinion based they either realize that they can just google the answer or that they have changed the question into a form that won't get them the information they want.

@DaaaahWhoosh They're both great questions just a bad fit for this site.

Geo

In the case of my question, I've tightened it up so much and made it so much better that I think it's hugely improved and so much less opinion based that I can hardly see how to tighten it any more. Is there any question in the world that's not opinion based if this one is opinion based? I feel like I have to keep tightening it, just to learn what it takes to ask a good question here.

sphennings

4:43 PM

@Geo I think fundamentally you're asking the wrong question. Your question could be rewritten "What bodily fluids can quickly get onto someone's hands?" This limits your magical fluids to saliva, vomit, or sweat.

Geo

@sphennings Inside the hands would also be acceptable.

When people vote to close a question, is there an option for "unanswerable"? Is it possible that people are closing this one as opinion-based as a substitute for it being unanswerable?

Because if it's unanswerable then it ought to be loosened up a bit to allow more room to answer it. But if it's opinion based then it ought to be tightened.

user8663905

@sphennings The issue with that objection is that this isn't going to be a story about these two civilizations. They will be part of the world around the main story, though.

Geo

@user8663905 Which question is this about?

sphennings

@user8663905 "How do two species with disparate languages communicate?" I would consider on topic. How they figured out how to communicate sounds like a story to me.

@user8663905 I think that your idea is an interesting one and I would love to see what you do with the world you are creating.

user8663905

I was actually going to allow for them to never actually begin communicating if people said that would be a likely result.

Geo

4:51 PM

@user8663905 You can't leave things open like that. You've got to clamp down on possible answers so tightly around here.

sphennings

@user8663905 It all depends on what you mean by communicate.

user8663905

0

Q: Managing Communication Forms that are not Mutually Comprehensible

Supposing that we have two intelligent species arising on a planet at around the same time. They both are communal, both have the instinct to spread as wide as they can and build dwellings everywhere that they can, and both have some form of communication which allows them to convey complex ideas...

biology society evolution culture communication

So, these are two species that shape the background of the world. However, I'm unsure in what way they will shape their own cultures and the environment around them. Their defining features have already been given, though.

Again, this is not a story about their interactions.

Geo

@user8663905 The question includes an awful lot of flexibility. Like saying "perhaps". Right now I'm thinking about ways to remove the very last of that flexibility from my opinion-based question. Even if your question were on-topic, it would probably be opinion-based.

@user8663905 If you have two species in mind, just say how they are. Don't leave it up to the answer to pick the species.

user8663905

If they could both make it to the space age, that'd be where they would become major players in the story. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'd even use them.

sphennings

@user8663905 It sounds like what you want to know is "How could these two races with disparate forms of communication communicate?"

user8663905

4:58 PM

The issue there, Geo, is that if I make the situation too restrictive, then the answer becomes obvious. If the answer is obvious, then it's not even a question.

No no, I'm wondering if they even could communicate

Geo

@user8663905 If the answer could be made obvious, then why even ask the question?

user8663905

If they could communicate, would they be able to coexist long enough to get to that point first? What factors might impact that time frame?

These are world-building questions.

Geo

@user8663905 Maybe you should edit the question to ask that.

user8663905

That is already what the question is asking, but I will try and make it painful obvious.

sphennings

@user8663905 If the answer is so obvious you don't need to ask the question then, problem solved.

Geo

5:03 PM

@user8663905 Oh yes, questions need to be so direct. So, so direct. You can't overestimate how direct a question needs to be.

I wish there were a way to make the answers to my questions obvious, then I wouldn't even bother asking them.

sphennings

@user8663905 They're actually my favorite type of question to ask because before I even ask them I have the answer.

user8663905

That's the point, Sphennings, if I get too specific, then there is no point in me asking the question. This question is just outside that point. If you want it more specific, that is the point where it becomes pointless. If that is what you want, then that is you answering the question with "answer this question yourself, it's not one I want to answer."

Geo

I thought I'd squeezed all but the last drop of opinion out of my question, and it still ended up being called opinion based. Don't ever put any wiggle room in your questions, none at all.

@user8663905 But why do you want to ask a question that you could answer yourself?

user8663905

I don't, Geo

I feel that I am being forced to, though.

Geo

@user8663905 What do you mean?

user8663905

5:10 PM

The objections to the question are that it is too broad. Specifically, people want it to include details on the species so that people can tell me how they would act. That is self defeating, as, if I were to define that info, I would already have my answer.

Geo

@user8663905 If you could get your answer just by providing more details about the species, then why wouldn't you just do that and get your answer that way instead of asking the question?

sphennings

@user8663905 I voted to close the question as "Not about worldbuilding". Though it's also pretty story based too.

user8663905

Because I want possibilities. What would the most likely result be. Would they have to behave strangely to coexist?

Geo

@user8663905 That makes it sound like brainstorming! That's not allowed.

@user8663905 Questions aren't supposed to generate ideas. They're supposed to get you the facts that you're looking for.

user8663905

There are only a set number of possibilities, Geo. I can list them off on one hand.

Geo

5:18 PM

@user8663905 Why do you want possibilities if you already have them all?

user8663905

coexist, destroy each other, exist in state of constant war.

Again, which would be the most likely

I suppose I should say that I want information on the possibilities.

Geo

@user8663905 It's hard to imagine the workflow of this worldbuilding project. Why wouldn't you specify the particulars of the two species and then determine what would actually happen between them, rather than leaving them vague so as to ask which outcome would be most likely in the uncertainty?

user8663905

Again, most likely

I want to know if this should be a rare and unusual thing, or if it's even likely to happen at all.

Geo

@user8663905 But why do you want to know what's most likely when you can determine exactly what would happen just by specifying the species? What does it matter what's most likely when you can determine exactly what would happen, with no likelihood involved?

user8663905

Okay, I'm gonna walk you through this: If I am looking for the likely result, then I want to know what would be the most common thing to happen for any particular set or grouping of traits. If it is very unlikely for there to be a set or grouping of traits which allow for coexistence, then I want to know. I can answer what would happen for a particular set of traits, but not for all sets of traits.

Geo

5:27 PM

@user8663905 But in any worldbuilding project there would be a particular set of traits. You just have to imagine them.

I'm asking questions because I need some insights into biology for my worldbuilding project. I can't just make up those details, they must be researched, and that's why I'm asking for help. I wouldn't ask for something I could just invent myself.

user8663905

That's the thing. I'm trying to go for some degree of realism. I want to know if this would be likely. If it's not, I don't want to include species that fit these traits.

If it's reasonably likely that two equally intelligent species could coexist and maybe make it to the space age at the same time, I might use two species like that.

Geo

So there's a particular outcome that you're looking for, and you want help working backward to figure out what traits the species should have to make the outcome plausible?

user8663905

Nope

Bellerophon

Why can't you say what you think would happen and ask if it is possible. That way you get an answer that is more likely to fit what you want in your story whilst still having realism.

user8663905

I've been making minor edits during this conversation as I go over what I've been saying in more detail.

well, not minor. I've been making addendums.

Geo

5:35 PM

@user8663905 I think this question needs to be deeply reconsidered, because the goal of the question is really hard to explain. But don't trust me, I've yet to ask a successful question. I only have experience with failure.

sphennings

@user8663905 We can read the edit history. You don't need to tell us that you have edited the question in the text.

user8663905

Geo: I want to be at the end and considering if two species like this would be likely to exist. I don't necessarily need them to.

I don't think everyone is going to want to read the edit history, sphennings. The word 'edit' is there as a courtesy to them.

Geo

@user8663905 This site is hugely picky about the quality of its questions. You need to massage and polish your question to perfection, not have explicit edits hanging around.

sphennings

@user8663905 When the question shows up in the reopen queue the default view is a diff with previous versions. The convention on this site is always leave the question looking like it was always written that way.

Bellerophon

@user8663905 That isn't really what you have asked.

sphennings

5:38 PM

Otherwise the readability of the question will suffer after a series of edits.

user8663905

Alright, I'll make an edit to remove the word 'edit,' then

Bellerophon

Or at least, not how it comes across.

Also, the title doesn't match the body.

To me, I may be an idiot, the title suggests you are asking about how they could communicate. The body asks how they would interact.

user8663905

Well, that's probably because my efforts to make it absolutely 100% clear what I'm really wanting to get out of the question has made it float away from the friendly and casual tone I began with.

I will revise further

Geo

@user8663905 No one in this world has ever had any experience with what happens when two vastly different intelligent species come together, so that makes it hard to see who would be qualified to answer, and leaving the details of the species vague just makes it even harder to answer.

user8663905

There, another edit has been made

Geo

5:48 PM

@user8663905 If I have this right, you're thinking about making a world where two very different intelligent species come together to live in harmony, and you're asking if that would seem plausible to the audience.

user8663905

Nope, Geo.

I don't want any particular end result. I intend to model my end result around what the audience deems as plausible.

Bellerophon

So the outcome isn't a big part of your story?

user8663905

Well, how big a part of the story it is depends on what outcome is deemed most plausible.

If the outcome is 'yes, coexistence is possible' then it will be more useful for the story.

if that is not deemed plausible, though, I want to not use the scenario where they coexist.

Geo

I don't think you'll ever be allowed to leave the question so open-ended. I've never been able to ask a question here that was specific enough, so I can only advise that you be as specific as possible. Pick a particular outcome, ask if that outcome would be plausible. If it's not plausible, ask another question where you pick a different outcome.

Bellerophon

@user8663905 So ask if it is plausible for co-existence or how coexistence is plausible. This will make the question un-broad and will give you the more useful answer.

user8663905

5:54 PM

Is that not what comes across from my current write up?

Geo

@user8663905 You just said that your question is not about a particular outcome.

Bellerophon

@user8663905 Oh, yeah sorry. I hadn't seen the question for a while. It looks fine to me now.

Voted to reopen.

user8663905

Oh, danke Bellerophon. I was actually going back to try and make an edit again. :P

Bellerophon

No problem. You now have 2/5 reopen votes. Good luck with the other 3.

user8663905

I'll try and make my future questions more structured in the future, though.

I was just frustrated that I felt I didn't have enough to go off of on how to fix any issues.

Geo

5:59 PM

@user8663905 Good idea. I'm still struggling to get my question re-opened, and it seems far more specific and precise than this one.

user8663905

What's your question?

Bellerophon

I do think the community needs to be more helpful with closed questions. As a quick point, do you know about the sandbox?

Geo

-3

Q: Which biological system could power this magic system?

What real human biology could serve to allow humans to become wizards in a world where magic exists? The magic system of this world has some particular requirements that it needs from the wizard's body, and these needs are being met by wizards without any sort of genetic modification or additiona...

science-based biology magic anatomy biochemistry

user8663905

Nah. I didn't think there would be any actually.

Bellerophon

19

Q: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

In order to make the Sandbox easier to use, a new Sandbox question will be posted when the old one becomes too full. This Sandbox is currently active. You can check here for the full list of past and present Question Sandboxes. What is the Sandbox? This "Sandbox" is a place where Worldbuildin...

discussion questions sandbox

user8663905

6:03 PM

Alright. This reminds me of writing for SCP wiki, which I was not actually expecting.

Geo

Yeah, the sandbox is a great resource, because posting questions directly is brutal.

user8663905

So, with your question, Geo: You're looking for an internal-system which allows a person to do those things with your magic material?

Geo

I'd love to hear anyone's suggestions as to what ways my question is opinion-based, because I feel like I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel of opinion elements to remove from it, and I don't want to damage the question by removing the wrong thing.

@user8663905 Correct.

Bellerophon

@Geo I think it just inherently opinion based and probably impossible to save.

Geo

@Bellerophon Can you elaborate on that?

user8663905

6:08 PM

I'd say make it be a magic gas and have it be contained in the lungs, maybe. Alternatively, you could have special pouches in the forearms which are designed to be squeezed when muscles are flexed in a certain way and squirt out through the wrist.

(Though, that's me brainstorming)

Geo

@user8663905 The question specifies that the wizard be an unaltered human. I've done everything I can to clamp down the answers so no opinions can leak through.

Bellerophon

Is there a problem with using the existing storage spaces in the body for this fluid?

Geo

@Bellerophon That's what the question is asking for.

user8663905

Well, with unaltered humans, it would have to either be lungs, or wizards would need to train themselves to vomit on cue

Bellerophon

@user8663905 Or it could be transported in the blood if it is polar.

Geo

6:11 PM

@user8663905 Seems like people are treating this in a pretty matter-of-fact way. Must be this, must be that. Where is the opinion?

user8663905

Yeah, blood could work, but then that becomes a question of how much and how pure does it need to be.

Geo

@user8663905 What details of the question should I clamp down to lock this to a particular answer and allow no more room for opinion?

user8663905

Honestly, Geo, I think the issue is that people are focusing on the fact that it's magic-based.

Which would be on them, not you

You've actually given pretty clear boundaries to the question, I think.

Geo

I'm thinking that I shouldn't have given people the option to be either a water solution or an oil solution. Picking between those two might be an opinion.

user8663905

You might try rewording the title, actually.

sphennings

6:15 PM

@user8663905 "What real human biology could serve to allow humans to become wizards in a world where magic exists?" The only answer to that is "Pick one it's entirely up to you."

user8663905

Like "Given an unaltered human, how would they contain an artificial fluid inside their body"

"--in such a way that they can recover it at any time"

Bellerophon

@Geo The answer to your three requirements is 1) Fluid that is soluble in blood but doesn't diffuse through cell walls. Excess is stored inside cells. Hormones ensure certain amount in blood stream. 2) Drunk to get in body, absorbed into blood in small intestine. and 3) Transported by blood then filtered via active transport in hands. The only problem might be that the hands would require more energy so the wizards might need more mitochondria and would probably feel tired after using magic.

Geo

@Bellerophon If it has such a clear answer, then why is it opinion based?

Bellerophon

@Geo It isn't.

Geo

@Bellerophon If it's not opinion based, then how can I edit it to make it less opinion based?

Bellerophon

6:19 PM

@sphennings That is the problem. The question doesn't actually ask that. The reason it is closed is because people think it asks that.

user8663905

I think it's really that people are reading 'magic' and thinking 'well magic can do anything'

Bellerophon

@Geo Remove references to magic.

sphennings

@Bellerophon That's the first sentence of the question.

Bellerophon

@sphennings Yes, but the actual question isn't that. It is just really badly written. |It actually asks how an artificial fluid could fulfil a few conditions but that first sentence makes it misleading.

Geo

@Bellerophon Is it really necessary to remove references to magic? That's the context of the problem, the need that this question serves in the universe, and removing references to magic would absolutely destroy existing answers. None of the answers are good, but I feel a duty to preserve them.

user8663905

6:21 PM

The first sentence doesn't always accurately reflect what the person is looking for. It's good practice to have that be the thesis, but not everyone manages good practice on things like this.

Geo: What you really need to know is about the fluid. It doesn't actually matter what the fluid does.

Bellerophon

@Geo Yes, the first 2 answers don't answer the question in its current form and the third would be valid either way.

May I make a suggested edit. I will roll it back straight away but I feel an example might help.

Geo

@Bellerophon That sounds good.

sphennings

@Bellerophon That first sentence and the title are in agreement. I'm pretty sure that's what the second 5 people were keying off when they decided to close this question, again.

Bellerophon

@sphennings Indeed. As I said, it is badly written.

sphennings

@Geo You should probably roll back the question to before it invalidated the answers. Then ask another question. You may want to use the sandbox first so that you are sure that you are asking your question clearly.

Geo

6:26 PM

@sphennings The answers were never valid to begin with.

sphennings

"Where in the body can a fluid be stored?" Is a different question than "Where in the body does magic come from?"

You should still roll the question back.

Geo

@sphennings It's just adding details to the magic system to make the question less opinion-based. The question itself hasn't really changed.

Bellerophon

@sphennings It is but if you read the whole body it does actually ask about fluid storage.

sphennings

"What organ could magic come from?" Is a different question than "What organ can hold magic fluid?"

Bellerophon

Do you want the fluid to reach the skin of the hands?

Geo

6:28 PM

@sphennings Really? It seems like an awfully subtle difference.

@Bellerophon Not particularly. But I could specify that it must if that would help.

Bellerophon

It might be useful just to know where in the hands the fluid must get to. Personally I would have it got to the surface.

Geo

@Bellerophon The surface works.

Bellerophon

Edited it. Does it look about right to you?

Geo

@Bellerophon It's okay, but I need to add in some mention of magic to preserve existing answers, even if they were never good answers. Would it be okay to mention at the end that this is in service to a magic system?

Bellerophon

@Geo You can do but I would make it very limited. Remember, 3 of the answers were already invalid only one was ever answering the question.

Geo

6:41 PM

Okay, I edited the last paragraph to explain that the purpose of this is a magic system. I'll leave off the magic tag, though.

I feel like giving that context information can only improve the quality of the answers. Plus, I really want to not mess up existing answers any more than necessary.

Geo

7:03 PM

I wish there were a way to let people know that they should never ask a question directly and always use the sandbox. Asking questions directly is a real mess!

Geo

7:51 PM

@JBH Has offered to help me fix my question, but I'm not sure where and how that is supposed to happen exactly.

Bellerophon

8:16 PM

Maybe ask it. It is probably offering to either edit them or to discuss them with you in chat.

Geo

Yeah JBH has created a discussion to move us out of comments, but so far JBH has been silent. I think I'm going to talk about what I want from the question and assume that JBH will come back soon.

JDługosz

8:43 PM

Howdy

Bellerophon

Buena noches.

JDługosz

Last night I broke through 100 pages. But now I'm worried that this subplot will get it banned from Amazon.

Bellerophon

@JDługosz What subplot?

JDługosz

@Bellerophon C remembering her “first time”, using that to reflect on who she's become now 10 years later. The 'inception' thing I linked to yesterday.

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