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8:00 PM
Oh no...
 
Ouch, this was painful to write. Even more painful to read.
 
Next you're going to post images of you in polka-dot bikinis...
sits up nicely
 
I may have to pretend that it is Turkish.
@Cerberus I have never in my life owned a polka-dot bikini.
 
Why not German?
 
And now don't ask for pictures without the bikini.
 
8:01 PM
I had polka-dotted all-stars.
 
@Cerberus Because if my brain thinks it is German, it tries to read it. If I keep it in my peripheral vision only and tell the brain it is Turkish, it doesn't direct my eyes at it.
 
@Mien What are polka-dotted all-stars?
 
@rumtscho Wise.
 
@Cerberus We can be cheap too; look:
But mine were black, not red.
And the black was red and the laces red.
 
8:09 PM
@Mien What is that about? Were they saving the thrown rice?
That doesn't seem sanitary.
 
@Sobachatina Yes.
They washed it.
 
@Mien I saw that. I guess that makes it ok.
 
@Mien Hahaha OK you win!
She must have saved as much as thirty cents!
 
You know- I'll bet if they offered to do the same amount of sweeping in front of someone's house they could make enough money to buy twice as much rice.
 
If you buy rice at Aldi, probably less.
@Sobachatina Oh, you Americans!
@Mien Rice is cooked anyway.
But the "little black things" that turned up in their porridge didn't sound very attractive.
Oh I got 2000 on linguistics.
Yay, I guess.
 
Jay
8:16 PM
@rumtscho And no he didnt reply. haha I wasnt really expecting him to. Quite honestly if someone send me that email I wouldnt have replied either
regardless of my sexuality/relationship status
 
Hmm so you had no idea whether he would be interested at all?
 
Jay
Oh well it doesnt matter
 
@Cerberus what kind of grade inflation is that?
 
@rumtscho I know! If even I get to have moderator privileges...
(And, yes, I deliberately misinterpreted your misinterpretation of my statement.)
 
@Sobachatina we got new chickens, but these like to visit our neighbor. We just cut their feathers. Do you know when (an estimation) we'll have to recut it?
a couple of weeks?
 
8:25 PM
@Mien They will molt once a year and grow new feathers.
I don't know when they will molt again but probably not for a while.
 
Okay, thanks!
They are quite young.
They don't lay eggs yet.
Our previous chickens were less adventurous.
 
I had some that would explore the neighborhood at the old house.
 
@rfusca - This is my game plan. Saturday Burt's Place, Sunday Hot Doug's then Gino's east or Lou Malnatti's. Mmm pizza
 
We got some strange looks from the nieghbors when we were chasing our chickens through their bushes.
 
@dpollitt good call
 
8:28 PM
I will be a chicago style deep dish expert by monday
 
he said between gino's and lou's that he thinks lou's is just a little better, but many people like gino's better
he worked at gino's
 
@dpollitt Sounds like a 4th of July blog post right there.
 
i'll keep that in mind
I think lou's sounds better too
from what I've read
@Sobachatina blog post 'eh? I know almost nothing about cooking. I'm just an expert at eating pizza
 
@dpollitt @rumtscho- does it have to be about cooking? Can it be about food?
 
@dpollitt If you can explain why pizza A was better than pizza B, it might be enough. Especially if you can deliver mouth-watering pictures.
 
8:30 PM
I would love to see a post comparing various deep dish pizzas in Chicago with good pictures.
@rumtscho Agreed.
 
@dpollitt lol i think i'm gonna be shooting every weekend all weekend between a few things I've got going on. I've got regular clients, living social deal, and i'm trying to break into the actor's headshot market
 
@rfusca "i'm trying to break into the actor's headshot market" Why does this sound like you are training to be an assassin?
 
Mouth watering pictures are really hard to capture at a restaurant, especially with my wife staring me down for being "embarrassing"
But I certainly will give it a shot
 
@dpollitt You photogs and your puns.
 
@Sobachatina maybe i am
 
8:35 PM
@rfusca i hope you like working :)
 
@dpollitt you need a more discreet camera
@dpollitt ya i do
i'd love to somehow replace my regular job
but thats a long, long way off
i got an email from the president of the south west PPA with an invitation to join this morning
how i'm consider 'south west' - I don't know
 
Its not that my camera isn't discreet. Its that to get good photos of food in poorly lit restaurants, you need a bunch of lighting :)
 
@rfusca I'm not sure that being a freelance photog is a nicer job that being a programmer
Sure, as a hobby, it is great.
@dpollitt ringflash :)
 
<----- doesn't really like programing that much - it just pays the bills
 
yea i need one of those
 
8:39 PM
just bring in a small stand and an octa
 
yea, i suppose
how does your wife take that? haha
 
@rfusca I literally lick my plate in the cafeteria, but even I have some limits for "embarrassing"
 
Heh, if anyone asks, just tell them you're blogging how awesome the pizza is. Just don't tell them the part that zero and negative numbers can be used to answer answer "how awesome"
 
@dpollitt also, we are not going to tell you how many daily views the blog has, so you can't tell them the truth
 
@derobert Exactly! @dpollitt- Tell them you're a blogger for a very highly trafficked site and you will be instant royalty! Probably.
@rumtscho Besides- you would tell them the traffic for SE not for this little pocket of it.
 
8:45 PM
This place had anthony bourdain visit. i dont think they will care about me
 
I bet the StackExchange network gets more monthly visitors than him :-P I mean, how many people can he fit in a restaurant, really?
 
@rumtscho lol
 
@rfusca I don't do it always, only when I have a reason.
 
mfg
quick recipe question, should I parbake this crust? diadesigns.com/blog12/2010/11/23/…
i had to double the shortening and the water and add salt, and so im not 100% sure the recpe is written down properly
 
@mfg that's not even "recipe question" in the sense which gets closed for offtopicdness
 
mfg
8:50 PM
but its been my experience that parbaking a crust for very liquidy fillings (ie. butternut squash) is better, especially with a corn bread crust
@rumtscho true, i can post the question after i get it made i guess
 
I would parbake, yes
Never made a cornmeal crust
 
@mfg It's basically a pumpkin pie. It isn't parbaked.
 
mfg
neither had i so i wasnt sure what to make of a corn bread crust
 
Some of her ideas sound a bit prejudiced. Like insisting that pressing the crust into the dish is less fuss than rolling it.
 
If you wanted to parbake it you would have to cover the edge with foil- otherwise the 40 minute cook time will probably burn it.
 
mfg
8:53 PM
all the pumpkin pies ive made have been with a pastry crust
 
@rumtscho There's no gluten there. Rolling it would be a nightmare.
 
@rumtscho I don't think 'prejudiced' is the word you're looking for....
 
i would say probably no parbake that
 
@Sobachatina Not sure - a shortbread crust doesn't develop gluten either.
 
mfg
it was the first hit for butternut squash pie so i thought id roll with it
 
8:53 PM
It is like plasticine.
I still roll it. Actually, gluten makes dough elastic, which isn't so great for rolling.
@mfg Oh, I'd distill ideas from her recipe - it seems useful for that. I just won't believe everything she says (or forgets to say) to the letter.
 
@rumtscho You're probably right- it has enough fat.
I press in shortbread crusts though.
 
mfg
same here, i pressed in the crust since rolling seemed unlikely to happen
 
I can never get them evenly distributed if I try to press
 
mfg
i think some kind of keyboard cat got to her recipe
 
But it is more of a "believe me, this is a secret which the world doesn't know about and it is soo much easier than the normal way" stance that makes me suspicious than the pressing in itself
 
8:58 PM
@rumtscho That's true. I don't like that tone very much either.
 
The only writer whom I trust with such claims is Kenji - and that only because 1) he describes how he came to that conclusion and 2) I have tested many such conclusions of his.
 
@rumtscho, you have a chance to look at that outline at all?
 
@yossarian started at it after work and got pinged for two different chat conversations (outside of here) which have been going on since, sorry
What I wanted to ask, do you have in mind what you want to tell the reader about each book, what he wants to hear, or are you just sharing your impressions?
 
@rumtscho And 3) you're (secretly) in love with him.
 
Jay
what about love?
whos in love
 
9:04 PM
I have the feeling that you are doing the second, and while your points bring up interesting questions, you don't cover them all for all books
@Mien Wrong. I am in love with the high quality knowledge I find in his articles. He is a useful decoration/tool/decision criterion.
 
@rumtscho I don't know. I could totally see you describing a boyfriend with those exact words.
"This is my boyfriend. I find him a useful decoration/tool and am in love with the high quality knowledge I find in him."
 
@Sobachatina No, if I ever say something similar and call the object boyfriend, it would be in a situation when it is awkward to say "I appreciate him for the high quality knowledge I find in him, he is a useful tool for finding it. Also, he is good in bed, so he is my friend with benefits." I still wouldn't say that I love him.
 
@rumtscho I've started on the Shavuot post, I think I've got a better lede. dropbox.com/s/jq36gr3cs2qyltp/draft1.odt ... I suggest turning off show changes :-(
 
@rumtscho, the idea was these are the three best books in my kitchen, one for beginner, intermediate, and advanced. This is why these books are great. Beginner: teach you how to cook. Intermediate: teach you how to start to make up your own recipes. Advanced: all the inspiration you could need.
The examples in the outline are supposed to support those points.
 
@yossarian yes, that's about the direction I was going to propose
But maybe a bit more structured.
Specifically, I think that your reader will be very happy with the post if after reading your post, he has the answer to the following three questions:
1) Why is this book a good choice (especially when compared to other food books of the same level), 2) If I read this book, what will I know/be able to do which I didn't know/couldn't do already, and 3) What are the limitations of this book? Are there any disadvantages as such, and if not, at least tell me what I won't learn from it.
I think that your approach plans to answer 1)
and partly cover 2)
I was in the middle of explaining why I think why this might be a good idea, and how you can implement it without exposing such a rigorous structure, when I got interrupted
Maybe I should shorten the mail, so I can get it to you quicker, and then you can ask me in chat about anything unclear.
 
9:16 PM
It sounds like @yossarian will cover 3 as well
... the limitation of the book is that it doesn't cover the stuff in the next book
e.g., New Best Recipe doesn't cover how ratios are the building blocks of a lot of recipes.
 
@derobert Not necessary. Or rather, this may not be the most logical limit.
I would say that ratios are a different topic from "why/how this recipe works"
I meant more where its limits in depth are, not its limits in breadth
 
It seems like it is, given the structure of the post. Of course, if there are other limits (e.g., mentioning New Best Recipe's lack of coverage of Chinese cuisine), those can go in to.
 
And of course, Yossarian's notes already go in that direction
That's why I am proposing these questions at all - I think we should stay close to what he plans to say.
I'm just not sure if they will be covered for all three books, and how clear the message about each of them will be.
 
Yes, I read the outline this morning, and it looks fine for an outline. Of course, little things like that (making clear that NBR's discussions stop short of Ratio, etc.) aren't apparent from an outline, only from a draft.
 
good feedback.
thanks.
 
9:22 PM
@yossarian I am continuing to write it in a mail, will tell you when I send it.
I don't even know how much of it is obvious stuff you already planned to do but didn't dwell on in the outline - so don't be offended if it sounds basic to you
 
I think I'll structure answers to 3 as: NBR will teach you how to make a spaghetti sauce from scratch, but not spaghetti. Ratio will teach you how to make things where the specific quantities really matter (spaghetti, holandaise), Flavor Bible won't teach you to make anything, but will give you inspiration (hence the advanced rating).
That make sense?
@rumtscho, yeah, fair enough. I know the outline is really basic and missing lots of info.
I'm just getting really behind the gun on work stuff and didn't want y'all thinking that I wasn't working on it.
 
@yossarian We appreciate it that you are working on it even when you are stressed at your job. It is nice to know you are serious about getting it written.
 
@yossarian Well, I'm not sure that's true. I'm pretty sure NBR has some baked things where quantities matter a good deal (it's at home, I'm at work, so I can't check). And Ratio has some pretty lose ratios in it, too. Its more, I think, that NBR aims to give you a complete recipe you can cook right away, and that was the best of the many variations CI tried. And it gives a story behind the recipe.
 
I am trying to help as much as I can, just don't be offended if it looks like too much - as an author, you are free to reject our suggestions anyway.
 
@yossarian Ratio gives an example recipe, sure, but its main goal is to show how you can vary the ingredients to make hundreds of variations, but they'll all be mayo as long as you follow the mayo ratio (and procedure)
 
9:31 PM
NBR?
 
New Best Recipe
a book in my blog review.
 
@Sobachatina New Best Recipe - the beginner's book he is reviewing
 
@derobert, yeah, that's kind of what I meant. I think the NBR doesn't aim for you to be able to come up with a from scratch pasta recipe, while Ratio does.
 
Yeah. NBR is definitely aimed at "I want to follow a recipe and make a great meal."
Ratio is more "I want to improvise my own recipe"
And Flavor Bible is "I've made twenty different mayo flavors, I need inspiration for the 21st"
 
yes. But I think that if you read NBR, you learn how to cook by osmosis. That's what makes it a great book. The recipes are bullet proof, which is important. But if you follow them, you'll learn how to start to improvise your own.
 
9:34 PM
@derobert Ratio and the flavor bible were made for each other.
 
@yossarian yes, especially if you read the discussions
 
Yeah, the discussions are an absolute must.
So that's the direction I'm taking with the review.
 
@yossarian you learn, intuitively, the tricks they use to solve problems they run into
Ratio starts you on a more analytical approach
 
@yossarian Is it similar to the America's Test Kitchen cookbook?
 
@Sobachatina, it IS the ATK book.
 
9:36 PM
Oh.
 
Right? Isn't that Cooks Illustrated?
 
I have seen people talking about these books and they are on my list to get.
 
@Sobachatina The ATK Cookbook is actually a different book\
But they're both from the same people
 
right, same people.
Lots of branding.
 
9:38 PM
It sounds like I should just get the NBR one then.
 
I suggest NBR, then if you want further coverage, Best International Recipe.
They have a bunch of books...
 
I learned how to cook from BR (before it was NBR)
 
And a lot of them overlap.
 
It's an awesome book.
International and Make Ahead are both good additions too.
Grilling is not significantly better than any other grilling book
 
I don't have Make Ahead, so I can't comment on that one (but maybe I should pick it up)
 
9:43 PM
Make Ahead is great if you need to make stuff ahead of time. Store stuff in the freezer, make meals with leftovers that become different meals, etc.
If that's not your bag, it's a waste of money.
 
@yossarian I can never let my wife find out about that book.
 
ROFLOL
 
@Sobachatina, it's pretty cool actually. Talks about how to get stuff to a point where storing in freezer or fridge won't harm your final product. There's a whole series of recipes where the leftovers become something completely different which is really cool. All the advantages of leftovers without eating the same thing again.
 
She likes freezer meals and has had a less than stellar track record.
 
@Sobachatina, then it's exactly what she needs. We've had great luck with them.
 
9:47 PM
@yossarian Perhaps then I should get it to steer her back onto the path to edible food.
It's not that bad of course- My memory blows it out of proportion.
 
@Sobachatina well, you've both survived, so it must be, in at least a technical sense, edible.
 
@derobert Not only they survived, their marriage survived too.
 
@rumtscho Well, the marriage may have been saved by @Sobachatina doing all the cooking. Further investigation seems required.
 
@elendil I discovered the existence of crumpets. Are they any good? Worth trying?
 
10:06 PM
@derobert I wonder: does the blog admin gmail inbox also show you ads about earning a Ph.D. in counseling psychology?
I don't know how it decided that I might need one
 
@rumtscho This isn't enough to challenge our marriage. :) She is wanting to try that canned bacon idea though.
 
@rumtscho I forget what ad it showed me last time, it wasn't that weird.
 
Maybe it noticed that there is something like multiple personalities using the account, and got confused with the keywords
 
@Sobachatina I have no idea why someone would can bacon. Seems weird.
 
@derobert So you can have it on hand when the inevitable zombie apocalypse starts.
Can you imagine how demoralizing it would be to have to fight zombies with no hope of bacon waiting for you at home?
 
10:09 PM
@Sobachatina couldn't you just freeze it? Then it'll thawed by the time you're home.
 
@derobert It must be because current producers have mangled the idea of bacon.
Normally, bacon is cured meat, meant to survive months without refrigeration, hanging from a hook in the cellar
 
@rumtscho I can see dry curing it. That's fine. But caning it?
 
@derobert Are we approaching this hypothetical situation seriously? because during a zombie apocalypse there is no electricity.
 
@Sobachatina Exactly! That's why it'll be thawed by the time you get home.
 
Today's bacon seems to be so badly made that it can't survive this, so it has to be preserved in other ways.
 
10:11 PM
@derobert Good point. I'll see if it is convincing to my wife.
Where can you get an actual slab of cured bacon that can survive room temperatures?
Actually- that is the question I already asked and haven't gotten an answer to yet.
 
I've seen an online gourmet shop sell a whole Serrano ham, cured.
The price per 100 g was much more reasonable in the supermarket - but the actual price of the whole thing was horrendous.
 
Well, you can get commercially-vacuum-packed bacon that'll survive room temperatures (until opened) but of course, the flavor isn't nearly as good.
 
@rumtscho I wonder if any of the local meat processors for livestock would have cured pork.
I'll have to call around.
 
I'd check with people who produce country hams.
@rumtscho OK, I'm done editing. I already sent you the link in chat, I'm going to email Martha it in both LibreOffice and Word format.
 
@derobert I opened it 5 minutes ago
Has it changed since?
 
10:21 PM
@rumtscho yes, though towards the bottom
 
@derobert I reopened it
I don't know how to handle the "fry in butter" step in the original recipe
The whole point is that she never fried them, so all her versions up to the prune puree stayed bland
If we add the frying step in the recipe, the readers will think that she fried them and they stayed bland despite the frying.
 
@rumtscho well, it was really weird when it was mentioned later... I guess it probably needs a line that she decided to omit that optional step.
 
So I'm rather against adding it, even though the true original has it.
I think the recipe at the beginning is intended to list what she tried, rather than what she transcribed from the family recipe book
In the very first version of the post, she had a transcribed recipe for a cheesecake, complete with her grandmother's notes
but this one is different, doesn't need as much careful preservation.
 
Wait. There are handwritten originals from her great grandmother?
 
Not for the cheese balls, I think
 
10:25 PM
Why don't we have a picture of this, or a scan? That's interesting...
Oh, OK.
 
But when her post only included failed cheeseballs recipe, she gave a working cheesecake recipe as a consolation
But maybe we can ask her for a scan of the handwritten recipe if she has it
I don't know where her mother got it from
 
Anyway, the problem is that later in the article, its mentioned that the recipe suggests frying in butter. So it needs to be in the recipe.
Otherwise, the reader is will not be amused at the withholding of details :-P
 
@derobert If you understand the listing at the beginning as the grandmother's recipe verbatim. I understand it as the version she followed.
There is also a repetition of "suggested" in two subsequent sentences - I notice it for the third time now, but somehow never corrected it.
It is probably in the exact same sentence which introduces frying.
 
I think the best bet would be to either strike all mentions of the original recipe saying to fry the balls, or alternatively, add a sentence on why she chose not to at first. Could be as simple as "wanted them healthier", "didn't want to clean a second pan", etc.
 
Could be "I overlooked it" :P
 
10:31 PM
That's fine too...
 
It sounds strange if she was aware that she is not following the original recipe, her variation failed, and instead of trying the original recipe after all, she started all possible wild changes to hers.
I also would skip the part about discussing her draft with me before making the final version
This just isn't done.
 
@rumtscho it sounds strange to either of us, being the scientific type, but really, people cook like that all the time
 
I don't say that people don't cook like that - they do, and I do too.
It just has no place in the article.
 
@rumtscho I shortened that up a fair bit. I'm not sure what you mean by "this just isn't done"—this is an informal publication. No reason you can't collaborate with the editors.
 
She should only say that she needed more focus, and had the idea of trying prune puree.
Collaboration is done. Boring the readers with the convoluted history of your post's troubled birth isn't done.
 
10:34 PM
@rumtscho That's how people actually cook. I'm unclear why that'd have no place in the article.
@rumtscho Ah, yeah. I shortened it up for that reason. I figured you wanted credit, else I would have shortened it a lot more....
 
No, I don't care about credit at this place. I didn't even know that I had served as an inspiration until I read her new version.
I shortened it in Wordpress yesterday.
 
@rumtscho Ah. Probably after I copy-pasted it out of Wordpress.
 
Yes, it was rather late.
 
@rumtscho I also struck most of your blue text, that was on purpose...
@rumtscho though I borrowed some ideas from it
 
That's OK - the blue text wasn't hers, it was my suggestion.
If you have an even better suggestion, you can give it.
No need for both to exist, and you aren't even destroying something which belongs to the author and her style.
> I'm afraid that the problem was that boiling the dough simply washes out the flavor of the balls, no matter how much seasoning I add to the mixture. It was at this point that
> I realized I needed to find focus and stop trying such wildly different ideas without knowing how they can help.
> Then I remembered my original evaluation of the cheese balls as reminding me of the flavor of the filling for cheese blintzes. Often, cheese blintzes are made with fruit filling as well as the cheese. Perhaps I could go back to the original recipe and simply add fruit.
That's my version of the "credit" paragraph
 
10:40 PM
@rumtscho I did. Like my "with Metric conversions added" is my version of "I give here the recipes as they are in the family cookbook, so they use volume measures. Seasoned Advice endorses measuring by weight, so the post includes a converted version too. "
 
@derobert Yes, this one was a bit too heavy, probably.
I just needed something to explain the metric version in the float
And I hadn't wanted to insert the metric measures directly into the original-cheesecake recipe, so I did both with a float.
 
And I took your idea from the first blue paragraph, and it became a sentence "In contrast to the methodological testing of our previous two posts, I'll explore less rigorous, more common approach."
 
When the cheesecake recipe disappeared, I forgot that my rationale has disappeared too.
 
@rumtscho That's why its nice to have multiple people looking at it, I suppose.
UGH. That should be "a less rigorous..."
But that's such basic copy editing, that we can fix that before posting it, without having to go through a round of drafts with Martha.
 
By the way, I don't know if you noticed the last development from yesterday
I made two new recipes
 
10:43 PM
I saw that, but I think Martha indicated she wasn't going to add those?
 
Designed them on Monday, before I knew about the successful prune version, with the idea to have a happy end - because a blog post with three failed recipes is a bit boring
Yes, I cooked them, and she said she doesn't have the time, but proposed that I add them
I wouldn't do that, mainly because I can't compare them to the other recieps
What is your position on that?
Hello @Aaronut
 
@rumtscho I think you could post them as a comment, or possibly a follow-up blog post
@rumtscho depending on how long the post turns out to be
 
I think that the perfect happy end would be Martha making them herself when she has the time - it can easily wait several weeks or months I think - and making the follow-up, because she will have tried all versions.
If I do them, completeness would require that I try the bland ones too, and I am not too keen on boiling three batches of bad food on purpose
But of course, we can't force Martha to make them
 
@rumtscho no, you'd only have to do Martha's final version—no need to compare them to the failures. But yeah, if she wants to do them at some point in the future, that'd be good too.
 
@derobert if you didn't see my latest edits to the text, you probably didn't see my pictures either
I tried to liven them up
But they need a real layout.
I don't know how you are in post
I had some real trouble with the first one.
 
10:51 PM
I looked at the latest version, yeah, much livelier. But blown out, too... Especially that first one.
Also, I suspect oversaturated, but only Martha could answer that for sure
 
I'm not too sure about the oversaturation
It is only the dough which looks suspiciously yellow
and then she has the cooked balls in another frame, again very yellow.
In both cases, other colors look OK, including the skin color of the hand in the first.
 
Yeah. That's just surprisingly yellow, at least w/o food coloring
I can give postprocessing some of them a try when I get some time...
If nothing else, I can at least get the layout in the blog to look reasonable.
But time to go tonight.
 
Do you have a real Photoshop? I could have pushed a bit more the tones in Darktable, getting a somewhat better lighting in the bowl, but the posterization of the hand and shadow became really cruel then.
@derobert good night
 

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