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reemrevnivek
reemrevnivek
00:53
@Kortuk - I'm excited about the launch too, but I'm also fighting off Math.SE-like "Evil Stackexchange Overlords" emotions due to [this](http://meta.electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/440/tex-delimiters-should-be-changed/444#444) craziness.

I don't know where to take it. Jeff Atwood has posted an answer; no one else is going to say anything. Since he's obviously opposed to MathJax in the first place, we're not going to move anywhere on fixing this bug.

That comment thread is **way** too long, and I feel like replying to it further isn't going to take the question in the right direct…
BTW, I agree that the logo should reflect that we're not consumer electronics. I think a breadboard does that better than a PCB, or would, if people knew what a breadboard was...
Nick T
Nick T
@Kortuk, @reemrevnivek, regarding the design, the breadboard design is sharp, but I think it screams hobbyist
2
A: Design for Electronics and Robotics

markragesIt looks nice, but the breadboard and DIP ICs give it a solidly "hobbyist" feel. Imagine if the server fault theme incorporated an image like this:

possibly not-tired, less-ugly alternative?:
0
A: Design for Electronics and Robotics

Nick TAs far as using a real PCB, using a soldermask color besides green should open up where you can go if that helps any. It also allows you to jam in more (faux or otherwise) complexity but still subtly hide it behind said soldermask. In my mind I was thinking something like the 3-D view in Altium...

should try to make some crazy board thing, but I can't get my AD license to work
might be expired or something
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
01:39
could I sent low quality video over bluetooth?
Nick T
Nick T
would be pretty terrible quality
Joby Taffey
Joby Taffey
I've just received an email from our benevolent StackExchange overlords asking moderators to take a look at the propsed site design. There's been some discussion on meta. Are we happy with the proposed design or do we want something else? I could raise this as a question on meta for a vote with a time limit?
Nick T
Nick T
@JobyTaffey the design is nice, I just don't think it's appropriate for a site that wants more high-level questions
Joby Taffey
Joby Taffey
So, we have at least one "no". I say we put it to a vote.
Nick T
Nick T
@joby Put what to a vote? The single design? Unless you give people some actual alternatives that's a sham poll
Rather reach some sort of a consensus through more than 8 hours of discussion before trying to finalize anything
You sound like some guy trying to jam a bill through congress
or am I grossly misinterpreting you
W5VO
W5VO
02:11
@NickT I could pull one of my IC layouts... that'd be different
not many hobbyists do IC design :)
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
are there low power compact cameras?
W5VO
W5VO
@antonytrupe For an arbitrary definition of "low-power" and "compact", yes
probably the smallest+cheapest would be a simple pinhole camera
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
3.3V, less then 2cm cube
W5VO
W5VO
video or stills?
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
video
W5VO
W5VO
02:25
Sparkfun has something a bit bigger than you're asking:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8739
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
thanks
W5VO
W5VO
try searching for "CMOS Camera" and you'll be able to visually identify the smaller ones
2 cm^3 is a very small volume
and even if you meant 2cm x 2cm x 2cm, that's still really small
Nick T
Nick T
I think Micron makes some camera assemblies; chip + optics
oh, they sold their camera division to Aptina
aptina.com/products/wafer-level_cameras/mt9v113m02stc
There's a 4.2 x 4.2 x 2.5 mm camera
30 FPS, VGA
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
oh nice
Nick T
Nick T
@antonytrupe It is, but that doesn't help you at all. Sourcing the part would be fairly difficult, then you would need some processor to interface with it via LVDS(?), process the image, etc.
Even if you really knew your stuff it would still be a pain without some very good equipment to solder it
antony.trupe
antony.trupe
02:38
@NickT which I don't
Nick T
Nick T
Imaging chips are all going to be BGA, so it's really about what you can get already assembled
 
3 hours later…
Kortuk
Kortuk
05:59
Im back, sorry, was sleeping
@reemrevnivek He is really trying to help the site grow. Jeff takes disagreement well. I stepped in saying that I think the Tex is needed.
What kind of help can I give you.
tyblu
tyblu
06:20
surely there is a better option for TeX than 500kB per uncached page... like a TeX to png conversion and image hosting services.
... instead of dynamic conversion, every load..
Kortuk
Kortuk
06:59
he is talking about what the user loads, not what we load.
@tyblu, the issue is that it makes the site slower for new users visiting it, which can really run new people off.
 
1 hour later…
Kortuk
Kortuk
08:27
0
A: TeX Delimiters should be changed

KortukDisregarding the load time issues. The $ delimiter is an annoyance, our users seem to agree. This is not a large annoyance and if we changed it the other sites would have a different basic function. I think that changing old posts to cope with this will be worth the consistency between SO sites....

Joby Taffey
Joby Taffey
09:07
@NickT I was thinking it might be good to get some concensus "are people happy with the proposed design", to help the discussion converge on something. Jin said he wants to make the changes this Thursday.
tyblu
tyblu
@Kortuk yes, and a run-once tex-to-png conversion followed by png hosting would be faster both both us regular users (cached) and new users, wouldn't it?
@JobyTaffey , your mom called: you're supposed to be in bed. G'night ;)
Kortuk
Kortuk
09:22
@JobyTaffey He said thursday if everything goes well. That is just a target.
@tyblu I will agree, I wonder how much overhead that adds.
(upfront overhead)
Joby Taffey
Joby Taffey
09:54
@tyblu It's 10am here
Kortuk
Kortuk
It is 5am his time right now I think @JobyTaffey
 
1 hour later…
Kortuk
Kortuk
11:18
answer was accepted @tyblu
3
A: AVR (at90usb1286) sleep and USB

jpcIIRC electrically you just have to toggle the pull-up resistor connected to D+ (or was it D-) so I would try manually setting and clearing (with a small delay in between) the DETACH bit in the UDCON register. In both the LUFA and V-USB libraries there were no problems with disconnecting and reco...

reemrevnivek
reemrevnivek
11:54
@Kortuk Do you mean the inconsistency?
Kortuk
Kortuk
@reemrevnivek, feel free to edit it if I was not clear. Staying up all night is screwing with me.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
nhinkle from Super User just had a school project with Mindstorm and we were planning to get him a set to write some blog posts about funny builts and get some help from other users. We were wondering whether asking questions about it were wanted on E&R, asking in chat wasn't really conclusive @Kortuk
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, in the past those questions have resulted in very poor response. The mindstorm use I have seen has some techincal issues, but most of what I have seen were game related.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
and in case you hadn't seen it, Super User got an official community maintained blog (blog.superuser.com)
yes that's the problem with Mindstorm, it's an electronic product, but you're not supposed to meddle with those parts
though if he get's a set, he would be able to answer questions as well, which might broaden the site a little bit
reemrevnivek
reemrevnivek
@tyblu Isn't that what Wikipedia does?
meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Formula
Help:Displaying a formula
MediaWiki uses a subset of AMS-LaTeX markup, a superset of LaTeX markup which is in turn a superset of TeX markup, for mathematical formulae. It generates either PNG images or simple HTML markup, depending on and the complexity of the expression. In the future, as more browsers become smarter, it will be able to generate enhanced HTML or even MathML in many cases. (See for information about current work on adding MathML support.) Although, in all cases mentioned, TeX is generated by compilation, and not by an Interpreter program, there is one essential difference between, e.g., Knuth...
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:00
and he's involved with those school projects where high school kids built stuff (though from what I understood there's even a college level competition)
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse yes, There was a separate site being proposed, but I honestly think that there will be major issues with some of the more professional electronics users being run off by many questions related to robotics games.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
I can imagine, what kind of questions would be on-topic?
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse I do not mean any disrespect with that.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
well that's why I'm asking it first! ;)
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, actually building electronics components of it. actually designing robotics components.
@IvoFlipse The main thing I have seen users do are trying to accomplish tasks and such for the competition.
@IvoFlipse My personal opinion is that the mindstorms are more game questions then technical questions.
reemrevnivek
reemrevnivek
12:04
@IvoFlipse - It's almost certainly on topic.
See http://meta.electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/156/lego-mindstorms-robotics-on-topic
Whether you'll get good answers is another matter; I'm not sure that many of our users have a Mindstorm system.
Kortuk
Kortuk
@reemrevnivek, I think that you can say goodbye to professional users if we start having a large number of kids asking game questions here.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
yes true @Kortuk, the only technical part is getting the robot to do stuff and that's not really the purpose of the site either
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse I have actually taken part with teams and getting them ready for competition and having seen what they are trying to figure out I have never been asked a technical question for the site.
reemrevnivek
reemrevnivek
@Kortuk - hrm. You're probably right. Anyways, I'm off to work.
Kortuk
Kortuk
@reemrevnivek, And having helped teams they were not technical questions!
@reemrevnivek Have a good day!
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:06
I guess they'll need to pull through with their own proposal then
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, sorry, sidetracked, there is one.
52
Lego Mindstorms Robotics

Proposed Q&A site for both new and experienced users of the Lego MINDSTORMS robotics kits (NXT, RCX, WeDo, etc). Other users could include the Mindstorms Developer Partners, and various developers of both hardware and software for the Lego Mindstorms robotics platform.

Currently in commitment.

Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
yeah I know, but it won't reach beta
Kortuk
Kortuk
Really?
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
18% commitment in 7 months? don't think so
Kortuk
Kortuk
point taken, I had not looked at the details.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:08
they'd better focus more on programming/controlling side of robotics
I'd recommend voicing your opinion on the discussion about merging Mindstorm with E&R, if you believe they don't have any real technical questions. It's like separating Server Fault and Super User
and that's fine, if they do have technical questions, they can come to E&R, if not stay with their site
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse I actually just left a comment. I guess I should write an answer.
Someone had an answer telling people to just try it out.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
yeah which is why I'd put your opinion out there too ;)
Kortuk
Kortuk
1
A: Lego Mindstorms Robotics On Topic?

KellenjbI think this is a good example to look at to see if it would work on our site: http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/6741/is-it-safe-to-configure-a-us-i2c-sensor-to-the-same-port-multiple-times No one has answered. I fear this will be the trend on this site. The Lego Mindstorm stuff is ...

Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
it's not a problem if they do, as long as those questions are technical and not: how do I put together a robot
well just because they don't get answered doesn't mean they shouldn't be on or off-topic
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, absolutely, I will go put an answer. Beyond that, I do think an SE for that would be good, but with so many people taking part younger then 14 it really reduces the number of users whom can dedicate to an SE
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:13
because I would just get some users a kit to have fun and educate others in the process
well it's not even allowed with the 13 years old policy in effect
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse Your point is valid. I think that was more of an answer from the community. There is a proposal to break Robotics from the E&R site. Which I think is actually not a bad call. We really do not have good answers for robotics so far. We are definitely having an issue bringing in experts.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
perhaps that would be a good idea
I'd mail Robert/Rebecca to get their take on it
Robotics would simply be put back into Area51 and would need to get their own support again
if there's enough traction, it should be up soon enough any way
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, There is a proposal for a professional robotics site. I will try to take care of this tonight. My work has me on night shift and it is screwing me up.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
there's no hurry @Kortuk :)
the situation has dragged along long enough already, some days longer wont hurt anyone :P
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse Everyone is off my schedule so all communication is delayed by a day per message. I do not write as well or communicate as well. It is another 1.5 weeks before I am off nights, so putting it off till then is probably not an option.
0
A: Lego Mindstorms: Merge with Electronics.SE

KortukComing from E&R I would like to add to this. I am breaking it down in as simple as terms as possible. On Topic Technical questions related to electronics or robotics. Off Topic Questions related to accomplishing tasks and playing the game in general. What do I mean? If you are trying t...

Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:24
if I see Robert or Rebecca I'll tell them to look into it
Kortuk
Kortuk
My best shot for now, it probably needs editing.
@IvoFlipse, Awesome. I think that it actually badly needs to be done. I think our regions are different enough that we will run into issues with people editing with the completely wrong context and language.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
yeah I think it's exactly the same like SU and SF
and enthusiasts aren't necessarily the ones giving the best professional answers, unless they are also professionals ;)
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, Well, I hope I helped you as much as I could, you definitely gave me some good advice. My work schedule had been limiting me to the point where I had time to take care of flags and leave guidance for others but not the level I wish I could.
@IvoFlipse Just like it.
@IvoFlipse And I really really hope that we can get hobbyist electronics and professional to coexist. This has caused some friction, but I think it is possible.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
no worries @Kortuk, we can't always be available for hobbies like this
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse, it mostly meant I only did moderation and did not write answers for months.
Had to pick one.
@IvoFlipse, Thanks for the help. I will try to make some progress later today!
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:28
oh don't get me started, I think I've only answered a handfull of questions the last half year
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse That is my issue, we will see if they keep me after the actual elections happen. Without answering questions I worry that the general community does not know me well.
W5VO
W5VO
@Kortuk There are a lot of questions with prices in them. I went through some of my old answers, and even MIPS assembly has dollar signs
Kortuk
Kortuk
Most of my work has been behind the scenes or an occasional comment.
@W5VO, that will have to be rectified. Looking forward to it already?
W5VO
W5VO
is there a way to insert a dollar sign without it being interpreted as latex?
Kortuk
Kortuk
yes
I think it was $\$$
I will check.
W5VO
W5VO
12:30
That's latex
Kortuk
Kortuk
damn, someone did it.
I just have forgottten
@IvoFlipse
5
Q: Another robotics proposal on Area51

reemrevnivekHey, I was just visiting Area51 when I noticed that there's yet another proposal for a robotics stackexchange getting started: Robotics research It's been marked as a dupe of E&R, but this question from Adam Davis aka Pollyana (a prolific Stack Exchange user and computer/embedded/electric...

discussion area51 robotics
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
lol, worse now we get a professional robotics and electronics site and still not place for enthusiasts messing with Mindstorm :P
Kortuk
Kortuk
Haha
Well, at least you found the bright side. : )
W5VO
W5VO
is the MathJax loaded only on pages that use it, or it it an automatic load when visiting the site?
Kortuk
Kortuk
Points at @IvoFlipse.
He knows computers and stuff, right?
I am actually not well acquainted with MathJax. I can try to find more out if you would like to know.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
12:36
what would be the difference @W5VO? in both cases it's loaded on sites that use it :P
you mean if the browser needs to include it or the site?
W5VO
W5VO
If I visit E&R and never see a question using MathJax, do I still load MathJax?
The intent is "will minimizing the use of MathJax make the people who spend the money happier?"
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
isn't it just some Javascript stuff? so if you don't encounter the javascript you shouldn't be loading it
Kortuk
Kortuk
@IvoFlipse yeah, he is relating to some feedback we got from Jeff. Let me grab a link.
-1
A: TeX Delimiters should be changed

Jeff AtwoodIn my opinion, the problem is that Tex (MathJax) is enabled here at all. Can you make a case that MathJax is necessary on a plurality of questions? Otherwise I am inclined to turn it off because It is an insanely heavy requirement on a site, upwards of 500kb per page load It can cause format...

Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
I'm only a user of browsers, definitely not into anything behind the scenes sadly
Kortuk
Kortuk
Haha, I thought that might be true, but you know more than me.
And you were here, so I threw it at you.
W5VO
W5VO
12:42
@Kortuk I'm frustrated with the response from Jeff. It sorta feels like he didn't want us to like MathJax... or like he's forcing "now that you have it, this isn't really what you wanted, was it?"
Kortuk
Kortuk
@W5VO. This question, I am surprised it made it.
0
Q: Which programming language for me? (MindStorms NXT)

MawgI have been programming for more years than I care to remember & am familiar with many language & development concepts. I would like to play around with MindStorms NXT and there is a chance that I might end up wanting to do some complicated stuff which could stretch the limits of the gra...

lego-mindstorms
@W5VO, He know A LOT more about what goes on behind the scenes.
@W5VO Knowing the system and the problems he probably considers it a giant mistake.
@W5VO And the boss always get to be blunt with his opinions.
I have written an answer for the robotics issues.
0
A: Another robotics proposal on Area51

KortukI have given some thought to this. I think that we are really only accomplishing the task of being an electronics site right now. This is not surprising as chiphacker was only electronics. The core issue here is communication. Electronics and robotics may be a situation similar to Server fault a...

@NickT, I think you mostly said this, but I wanted a clear statement of intent and feedback before making a serious step towards changing it.
Ivo Flipse
Ivo Flipse
@W5VO he's most likely worried about scaling issues and that the system wasn't designed to use such extensions
W5VO
W5VO
@Kortuk I agree that it isn't the best way to solve our problem. MathJax is really neat, and it makes writing Latex really easy... but it really doesn't seem like a good idea for (basically) static content. I would think something that converted the Latex into an image would be the best solution.....
Kortuk
Kortuk
@W5VO, I agree. You an tyblu should write up a feature request. If they think it is worth doing I think it is worth removing MathJax until it is ready.
W5VO
W5VO
The fact that they mis-configured MathJax on Math.SE so that writing prices is harder proves that math is really abstract :)
Kortuk
Kortuk
12:50
haha
When would a math forum EVER discuss prices?
The price of an integral. Unless they start selling tutoring they have no need.
W5VO
W5VO
They enter a grocery store. "Why isn't the Latex rendering?"
gotta go get ready for the morning x_x
Kortuk
Kortuk
@W5VO, what do you think of meta.electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/429/…
!
Definitely apples to you also @DanielGrillo
Daniel Grillo
Daniel Grillo
@Kortuk I don't understand your phrase.
Kortuk
Kortuk
That the discussion here applies to you also. Clearly every community member, but you being a mod and all, it applies alot.
Daniel Grillo
Daniel Grillo
@Kortuk Yes, I agree we should separate "electronics" from "robotics".
Kortuk
Kortuk
13:05
Then upvote!
Daniel Grillo
Daniel Grillo
Yes, I've done it.
For example, if someone wanna discuss about gears for robotics. I think here he will not find professionals to help him.
There are few questions about robotics here, too.
W5VO
W5VO
13:19
@Kortuk Why was the site called E&R to begin with? What robotics interest sprang up between ChipHacker and what we have now?
Kortuk
Kortuk
13:34
@W5VO, the proposal was written before the chiphacker stuff was worked out.
@DanielGrillo, yes, but we all look at it as electronics guys.
@DanielGrillo They will do better with their own site, but @reemrevnivek did point out this is the 4th try.
@W5VO I really never understood it, but did not fight it.
I am off to bed. Later guys.
 
3 hours later…
Zain
Zain
16:38
Hi!
Jin
Jin
@markrages hi Mark. thanks for the design feedback
Zain
Zain
I think Nobody to chat i am leaving.
 
6 hours later…
reemrevnivek
reemrevnivek
23:15
@Zain - Sorry! Been busy today. Drop by again sometime; there's usually at least one person here.
Jin
Jin
hey @reemrevnivek
markrages
markrages
23:30
@Jin no problem, beware design advice from engineers.
Jin
Jin
@markrages it was a valid critique!
i'm changing the header to a pcb board now.
i'm not using the typical green one though. it'd be too harsh in the eyes. i'm going with a white one, under a Plexiglas. at least that's the effect i'm going after.
i really like the look of this evilmadscientist.com/article.php/meggyjr
markrages
markrages
ok
Jin
Jin
but i'm making the tracks more abstract than technically correct though. since the header piece is really for decorations.
markrages
markrages
for inspiration, here's a beautifully drawn schematic
user image
Jin
Jin
thx. maybe i'll use that as the background doodle
markrages
markrages
23:35
ok
Jin
Jin
23:56
@markrages you here still?

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