Electrical Engineering

angelatlarge

00:57

What? No corgi? Weird...

alan

01:24

hey, i have a simple question...

it is just idea, i dont really do it.

The Photon

ok

alan

i wanna convert the 220v ac 60hz voltage to a low level dc voltage

and

i wanna use two capacitors cascading together

the ration of the value is like 1:100

and for the big value capacitor, i will parallelly connect some recitifier

then, some resistor and capacitor to get my output

it is a very simple idea

maybe this circuit is very bad

yes, it is

but my question is

for the two cascading capacitors, the small value capacitor should hold most of the voltage, and i should find a capacitor whose tolerance is over 440v

or 350v

but for the big value capacitor, which just hold a very small voltage of the ac input, do i need to find some high-voltage-tolerance capacitor or just some regular capacitor is ok

done

The Photon

@alan, You are aware of the safety issues with this design?

coding_corgi

01:57

Yo yo yo!

Anindo Ghosh

02:24

grEEtz pplz.

I love the new close system announcement post! It's almost like someone's read specific points I have made in chat, and even used the same words and context!

coding_corgi

@AnindoGhosh hullo

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh hallo

David Kessner

Hi everybody.

coding_corgi

@DavidKessner grrrrrrrrrrrr...........

MLM

heya

coding_corgi

02:28

damit

Sfe ruined my order

im supposed to get a new, clean tip for my iron

not a busted oxidized one!

David Kessner

@coding_corgi Pics, or it didn't happen!

MLM

I had to sand paper mine to tin it a little while ago

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Hallo

David Kessner

Sparkfun is just a couple of miles from my office. I'm acquaintances with some of the people there.

coding_corgi

@DavidKessner got one on my dads phone, my camera was acting up, ill post it here too, my dads asleep in his room with his phone

@MLM hmmm.... How do you take care of your tip?

David Kessner

02:32

@coding_corgi If you were a cat you'd be able to get it while he's asleep.

MLM

@coding_corgi probably wasn't tinned well enough when it wasn't used

coding_corgi

don't you worry they'll be pics

@DavidKessner i do like to sneak around, me is stealthy

@MLM used?

its new

W5VO

@AnindoGhosh They are customizable to an extent

coding_corgi

@DavidKessner tell them they're great but they f****ed up my order, i waited one week to get that :) shippment since i was going to do some crazy smd soldering with a regular iron and i needed a good tip

Poor me

i check teh ups tracking page every 5 mins hoping for it to move for an entire week

W5VO

OH SNAP! I just realized that I can edit close reasons!!! KNEEL BEFORE ME - CLOSER OF ALL

coding_corgi

02:37

even on sunday

crazy me...

Anindo Ghosh

@W5VO Yes, I saw that - I was not referring to the close reasons, but to the actual text in the announcement about the impression a newbie gets from a "Closed", etc.

coding_corgi

@W5VO see everyone? not having a lot of rep is a good thing! No need to kneel

;P

W5VO

@AnindoGhosh We've been prodding them about it for a bit - it was promised a few months ago

Anindo Ghosh

@W5VO It's actually a good idea to go back to a few pages worth of recently closed questions, to collate some useful close reasons to add, I think.

W5VO

@AnindoGhosh I'm making a meta post as we type

Anindo Ghosh

02:40

@W5VO Yes, you mentioned it in response to one of my particularly bitter rants, I recall :-)

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh "Closed because you are a troll" "Closed and go away" "Closed, __off, and die" "Closed because I said so" "Closed because we don't want your kind around here"... the possibilities are endless...

coding_corgi

@angelatlarge #3 sounds very nice, maybe make it a little meaner? ;D

angelatlarge

@coding_corgi I am sure someone will find a way to do that :)

W5VO

@angelatlarge You have no idea how tempted I am.... the edit dialogue literally has a warning text "With great power comes great responsibility"

with great power comes great immaturity

coding_corgi

@angelatlarge of course... i bet @DavidKessner could do that

Anindo Ghosh

02:42

@W5VO Speaking of meta posts: At least one putative "mature expert" has shown himself in his full petulant childish glory in reaction to the battle of the closes. Oh, how my wife and I laughed on reading his foot-stamping, "my ball, my rules" schoolground behavior! Our Camil proved himself much more grown-up than that person, today!

coding_corgi

@W5VO and no life-ing

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge See previous. ^^^^^

@W5VO With great beard comes greater immaturity. :-D

coding_corgi

@MLM so sandpaper makes it like new?

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Wait a minute!

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Take your time. :-)

MLM

02:44

@coding_corgi nooo it just made my tip able to get tinned and be able to be usable again

don't do it too much

could damage it

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Just because you are Indian, and therefore facial-hair-challenged....

coding_corgi

@MLM how do you tin your tip? Just apply solder lightly on the usable parts of the tip?

MLM

@coding_corgi ye

angelatlarge

(Or did I mix up my culturo/genetic stereotypes?)

David Kessner

@coding_corgi "Closed because you are an insignificant pebble in the road of life, full of ignorance, and not worthy of anybodies time or effort."

Anindo Ghosh

02:46

@angelatlarge Bwaaaaaaahahahaha! You took time to think up that comeback, but it's a good one!

coding_corgi

@MLM tanks

MLM

@coding_corgi you can apply a bunch of solder too. doesnt matter

coding_corgi

@DavidKessner too nice....

@MLM tanks

@MLM okey

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge You did, a bit. Look further east.

coding_corgi

im out

dokey

David Kessner

02:46

@angelatlarge You know that all the Indian swamies have amazingly crazy facial hair?

@coding_corgi Do you have any liquid flux for your soldering?

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Pics please?

alan

@ThePhoton. yes, as i said, this is a bad idea

sorry late to reply.. something happened..

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Are you referring to those stick-figure chin comeovers some people call beards?

alan

but even though i still wanna know, do i need to have just one high-volt-tolerance cap or i need both of the cascading caps high-volt-tolerance.

David Kessner

angelatlarge

02:50

@DavidKessner Yeah, that's not too bad. You can put at least one dinner in that thing.

alan

hey, i have a simple question...
it is just idea, i dont really do it.
i wanna convert the 220v ac 60hz voltage to a low level dc voltage
and
i wanna use two capacitors cascading together
the ration of the value is like 1:100
and for the big value capacitor, i will parallelly connect some recitifier
then, some resistor and capacitor to get my output
it is a very simple idea
maybe this circuit is very bad
yes, it is
but my question is
for the two cascading capacitors, the small value capacitor should hold most of the voltage, and i should find a capacitor whose tolerance is over 440v

David Kessner

@alan It is really hard to comment on your idea without seeing a schematic.

alan

@DavidKessner. i already told u this circuit by my words....

i just dont draw it with figures... are my words are not clear enough.....

David Kessner

@alan I am sorry, but your words are not clear enough. And honestly, nobodies words would be clear enough for this. Someone who has been designing these things professionally for 20+ years would not describe it accurately enough with words alone.

alan

i know it is a very dangerous, but my question is just do i need two high-volt-tolerance caps or just one high-volt-tolerance cap ?

you confuse me so much....

@DavidKessner

David Kessner

03:05

@alan I suggest that you simulate the circuit (using LTspice from linear.com) and see for yourself if you need a high voltage caps or not. The nice thing about simulations is that you can try out dangerous circuits without killing yourself.

alan

i dont think it is hard to understand what i try to say about my idea. input high ac votage connect two cascading caps to distribute the voltage, the value ratio of the two caps is like 1:100, for example, 10nF and 1uF. ignore if it is useful or not, just consider how it works, do i need two high-volt-tolerance caps or just one...

angelatlarge

Yeah, @DavidKessner, you are such an idiot! Can't understand a simple question. What is wrong with you?!

alan

@DavidKessner i think you are quite unbelievable.....

angelatlarge

(I am being sarcastic here, in case this isn't clear)

David Kessner

@alan I have never, ever, seen the phrase "cascading caps" before. Normally, we use the terms "series" and "parallel". I have seen other uses of the word "cascading" that could be interpreted as either series or parallel, so that word is ambiguous.

@angelatlarge Have you been talking with my wife?!?! :)

angelatlarge

03:08

@DavidKessner Your wife's comments are probably on non-electronics topics...

alan

@DavidKessner, thanks for correcting... i should use series if you feel better. but does it matter.

David Kessner

@alan So you are using two caps in series, in much the same way that we might use two resistors as a voltage divider. Right?

And yes, it absolutely matters.

alan

i just use one resistor to parallel the big value cap

@DavidKessner

to get a small voltage

the big value cap should just get 1/101 of the input voltage, which maybe 2V

David Kessner

@alan Now you lost me again. A schematic would help a huge amount.

alan

which part you dont get...

you just said i might use two resistors as a voltage divider. it is also ok

@DavidKessner

but two caps can also use a voltage divider.

why this concept confuse you.

David Kessner

03:17

@alan Have you ever heard of the phrase, "A picture is worth a thousand words"? That is very true here. You say this is a simple idea, but words just don't explain it accurately or completely enough.

We could easily go back and forth for the next hour and I still wouldn't get what you are trying to do. A picture would clear this up in just a minute or two.

alan

@DavidKessner yes, it is my fault. thanks for your kind words. yes, a pic is clear enough. maybe my english words are good.

not good

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Just glanced over at your blog. There was a piece in onthemedia.org talking about a similar issue (why terrorism is a big deal even though car accidents kill more Americans in a month than terrorism in the past 20 years), and one gentleman on the program split the risk into hazard (how dangerous X is) versus outrage (how upset we are at X). I think this bears on the guns / drunk driving debate as well.

David Kessner

@alan It is not your english. I really do mean it when I say that an experienced, english speaking, engineer of 20+ years could not describe it well enough.

@angelatlarge Yes, there are many subjects similar to the guns vs. drunk driving comparison. It was just that those two items fit my example well.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner I guess what I am saying is that it isn't necessary to think about this in terms of "hypocrisy": if you look at it one-dimensionally (# of ppl killed) then yes, the disparity appears to be hypocritical. However, a two-dimensional view may reveal that no hypocrisy exists. But perhaps I did not real your blog post carefully enough.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Another interesting statistic: More people in the U.S. are killed by HAMMERS than by rifles of all types (including assault weapons).

angelatlarge

03:27

@DavidKessner Apparently, that's actually false.

@DavidKessner Some conservative legislator used that argument on a senate/house floor, I think, no? But I think that's been shown to be false... let's see what the arbiter of truth says...

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I think that the "response that is out of proportion to the risk" is just the other side of the hypocrisy coin. Similar thing, different words.

@angelatlarge Data?

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Looking...

@DavidKessner Let's talk about this in a sec, I am not sure I agree...

David Kessner

@angelatlarge politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/jan/30/greg-abbott/…

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Found this, which seems to be coming from a pro-gun view, but slightly more nuanced: breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/03/…

@DavidKessner Ok, so we seems to have converged on the "facts": blunt weapons kill more people than rifles, but not more people than handguns.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Agreed.

angelatlarge

03:32

@DavidKessner Indeed hands, feet, and fists kill more people than rifles.

@DavidKessner (I was going to put a smiley face on that and then thought better of it)

@DavidKessner So would you argue that "number of people killed with X" should be the only criteria for judging how much we fight X?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge That, plus the cost of "curing" it. And cost is money, and unintended impacts.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner So out of curiosity, do you think we should abandon our fight against terrorism?

David Kessner

...got stuck on the phone. Be back in a minute...

@angelatlarge Certainly there are certain aspects of the FAT (fight against terrorism) that are worthless. The TSA being the biggest one. Bruce Schneier said that the two biggest things that happened since 911 to improve our security are reinforced cockpit doors and that the passengers now know to fight back. He also describes the rest of TSA as "Security Theater", and not at all effective.

@angelatlarge I also believe that we should not loose our rights and freedoms in the name of security. But I guess I need a specific example of something in order to give you a direct answer to your question, since FAT is a very broad subject.

angelatlarge

03:48

@DavidKessner Yeah, I heard him talk on Russ Roberts' podcast.

@DavidKessner I agree with both points in there. OK, well, that was just a hypocrisy check. That same Bruce Schneier, BTW, thinks that we should just accept the damn terrorist risk, which would be consistent with your proposed views/math.

@DavidKessner loose -> lose.

@DavidKessner However, I think there is a decent argument to be made for a more nuanced approach. Driving/walking outside is more risky than taking a plane. However, should we fight driving? Most people would say "no" simply because this issue lacks the outrage factor, partly due to the fact that we are more in control than in the terrorism cases.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I don't want to say that we should just accept the risks, but I don't have a better idea. Certainly I don't like "illegal" phone taps and drones in the U.S., and would rather risk the odd terrorist attack than have to worry about my own government doing something bad.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner I think you are right in your conclusions w.r.t gun ownership vs. drunk driving, but I am not sure that's bad. It seems a) natural (something you would agree with) and b) right, in some sense. I'd like to try a thought experiment to see if that's the right way of thinking about this...

David Kessner

@angelatlarge It is a very grey area. Should we allow extreme sports (base jumping, bull riding, etc.) but make smoking cigarettes illegal? Ignoring second hand smoke, I consider them to be identical because the person chooses the level of risk that they want to take.

@angelatlarge Ok, what's the thought experiment?

angelatlarge

If we changed "guns" to "homebrew nuclear power plants/nuclear weapons" - something that a minority of people might enjoy doing/having something that can be dangerous in the wrong hands, and something that the majority of people would not want to own. Does that change anything?

@DavidKessner Well with cigarettes there is a) profit motive that's a bit different and the b) addiction factor that's not there with BASE jumping.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge extreme sports cause a huge adrenalin rush that is addictive. ...thinking about your thought experiment...

@angelatlarge The homebrew nukes have several important differences from guns: 1. They can "kill" you years before you physically die. 2. The scope of damage can be orders of magnitude greater than even fully-auto guns. 3. The danger will linger long after the "user" is gone. If those three things were not an issue, then nukes would be no more dangerous than many things we already have in our homes.

Also, expanding on 1. They can kill you long before you even know it.

angelatlarge

04:05

@DavidKessner Hmm... your objections are duly noted.

@DavidKessner I am just thinking that I think we are more tolerant (or I think should be more tolerant) to risk only present to the user/owner (i.e. drugs) than of risk that can spread to other people.

@DavidKessner And after that, we are more concerned with liberties pertaining to our own conveniences (cars) than things that are less universal (guns). I don't find that hypocritical though: seems normal.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge This gets into the bigger issue of, "who is allowed to die, and why". For example, should living wills be enforced (the Catholic church and Catholic hospitals say no). What about assisted suicides? Capitol punishment? Abortions? These issues are not that much different than someone who knowingly engages in a dangerous activity (drugs, extreme sports, smoking, diy-nukes).

I don't think that we can discuss some of these issues without tackling the larger issue of when people should die (of non-natural causes).

@angelatlarge Agreed. Mostly.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Yeah, then it's just 42.

@DavidKessner Let me try to be a bit more articulate: I don't find it surprising or problematic if society wants to restrict some hobby of mine that is dangerous to other people if I (and a few of my pals) are the only people who engage in it: it only makes sense. But I think it's just a matter of religion and little else.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge The problem is when people become an activist for a cause. It is no longer an issue of someone choosing a risky activity. It is someone else placing their value system on my life. They fight a cause because it is trendy, and ignore the lack of efficacy and unintended impact on people who might want to do something legal and honest.

angelatlarge

...and I think that's what (as you articulate it in the blog) gun restrictions versus (drunk) driving/sexual assault disparity is all about.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Restricting something that is dangerous is fine, if restricting it will actually accomplish the stated goal (saving lives) with no side effects. But banning something that is useful to more than just a tiny minority, when the stated goals will not be met, is silly. What makes it hypocritical is that they do that under the banner of "saving lives". It's not about saving lives, but about an ideology.

angelatlarge

04:18

@DavidKessner To be honest I have very little understanding of the data, though I don't have much faith that there is conclusive data to be had.

@DavidKessner Everyone both pro- and anti- gun control sides tend to have their way with the data, it seems.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Yes, and I tend to disagree with both extremes. To make sense of it, it helps to consider it in small chunks rather than one large bite. Consider the banning of high capacity magazines. One side says that it will save lives. But I don't think that it will do anything except inconvenience people who carry guns regularly...

... You can reload a gun in less than 2 seconds. And nobody will be within a 2-second run from any gunman to tackle him. So it isn't going to significantly effect a mass shooter. On the other hand, security guards now have to carry extra magazines. And it can frequently take more than 10 rounds to take down someone on PCP or other drugs. And in the heat of the moment, someone who is legally using a gun will miss more often than they hit.

And this assumes that a criminal will follow the law and not use the millions of high-cap magazines already "out there".

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Well,

I think we should ignore that last part. Sure, certain firearm-related paraphanelia will be "grandfathered in" but I am not sure that's a good argument against control.

@DavidKessner I think, in the end, this is not someone can have a rational debate about. It's a matter of religion/faith.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I think it has been a matter of religion/faith, but it should be rational and pragmatic.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner I've fired guns, but I don't own a gun, and I don't feel a need to own a gun. So for me (also living in a relatively progressive part of the country) more gun control makes sense, but that's probably because I don't place a high price on the inconvenience to people who want to legally own guns. If you replace "guns" with "etching solution" then suddenly I care, you know?

...so for me "what'a bit of inconvenience to every legal gun owner" but I am sure that is because I am not one, you know?

@DavidKessner And I don't see how this discussion (gun control) could be more rational and pragmatic.

@DavidKessner Here's an idea: we should both think of some possible fact/datum that would change our mind on gun control. Do you think that's possible?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I completely understand that. I like to go backpacking for days at a time. I never go alone, but sometimes with just one other person. In many places, there are bears and other wildlife that might want to eat me. I carry a handgun for defense in those situations, but also as part of an emergency kit (for hunting food). That is a perfectly reasonable use for a handgun, in my opinion.

angelatlarge

04:32

@DavidKessner OK, that makes perfect sense to me. I am more worried about "people carrying guns regularly" if they are not police/security officers. "Worried" as in "why would someone do that" and "hmmm... that sounds scary to me"

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I would be for any pro-gun-control law that: 1. Has a chance to significantly reduce unnecessary gun deaths. And 2. does not decrease my personal safety significantly.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Safety from bears?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Bears, terrorists, and Canadian Trolls. :)

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner :)

Anindo Ghosh

Jumping in late, with one small annotation: Adrenaline rushes are perhaps more addictive than Nicotine - and they are related substances. Source: I spent a part of my youth indulging in some extremely high-risk sports.

angelatlarge

04:36

@DavidKessner So I'd think that stricter gun control was not helpful if it turned out that Swedish style gun control (at least what I imagine it to be) didn't result in less per capita firearm deaths than what we have in the US.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Canadian trolls would come under "justifiable self-defence"?

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Oh, heat. What did you do? Skydiving while smoking?

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Won't say on public platform. I am a respectable member of society now.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Even our president is allowed to admit to smoking pot. We live in tolerant times @AnindoGhosh

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I want to change my first condition. It is now: 1. Has a chance to significantly reduce unnecessary deaths and injuries from violent crime. The difference is that it does not specifically call out firearm related stuff.

angelatlarge

04:38

@AnindoGhosh Or is it something like "had sex w/o a condom"?

@DavidKessner Hmmm... I don't approve.

@DavidKessner I agree that suicides shouldn't be a part of the equation, but children killing themselves accidentally should be, IMHO.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Banning and confiscating all guns will reduce gun-related deaths, but could increase violent rape not resulting in death-- to contrive an example.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge I'm not a citizen of the "Land of the Free" (hold on while I cope with the paroxysm of mirth).

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner (What's a necessary death from violent crime)?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Yeah, ok, include firearm accidents.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge That might have happened, I have no recollection. ;-)

David Kessner

04:40

@angelatlarge A mass shooter goes crazy in a theater. A cop shoots and kills him. That's one necessary death.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Ah, right. Sorry, that's a big one, and something that proponents and opponents of firearm control do not talk about. So, do you think armed citizenry prevents violent crime, in general?

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Agree with that. Flip side: Cop shoots dealer who demands money for cop's fix. It's happened, google it.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge That's a hard one, with no solid statistics. I know that people have been saved because they had a gun. And people who are legally qualified to carry a gun are much less likely to do something criminal. But I do not know where the net-gain is.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Just to put it out there: I think NRA says "yes", gun control lobby says "no", but I don't know what "ordinary gun owners" (if such mythical beasts exist) think. And lots and lots of useless cherry-picked data.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Some science fiction novel I read long ago... something about genetic code locks on all ranged weapons. It ensured that law-abiding people bearing arms were more sensible about their use, but criminals continued to manufacture and use "lock-free" weapons.

David Kessner

04:46

@angelatlarge I do not consider myself an "ordinary gun owner". For example, I have voted exactly ONCE in a presidential election, and it was last year, and I voted for Obama.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner That is weird.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I am pro-rationality, and even though Obama and I differ on this topic I sure as hell didn't want Mittens!

@AnindoGhosh There was one gun that had what is essentially a directional RFID lock. The owner had a bracelet that the gun pinged. If the bracelet was not located close and BEHIND the gun, the gun would not fire. The gun never sold well.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner So what would you think about a very draconian gun control whereby you could only obtain a gun through sponsorship of a (hunting) club such that a) the club was expensive to start and b) club loses its right to sponsor people for 5 years if any of its guns were were used in a violent crime? Too strict?

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Was it priced high, or difficult to find at stores?

angelatlarge

(the a) condition is to prevent an infinite number of them)

Anindo Ghosh

04:50

@angelatlarge Club losing ratification due to misuse makes the club responsible for policing people's psychiatric issue, no?

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh That's exactly the point.

@AnindoGhosh Make someone who is really interested do the "background check"

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge So wait, you think it is feasible for any voluntary enrollment organization to enforce regular psychiatric interventions?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Ignoring the practicalities of implementing that in a country with 300 million untrackable guns... I think that the punishment should not be for the club, since they legally cannot have the resources and power required to do a proper background check. Therapist-Patient privileges and all that.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Problem with that: It presumes that a person is a psycho historically, as opposed to just cracking one day. Shades of 1984 there.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Yes, I am ignoring the guns that are out there already. There is very little to be done about that anyway (gun buyback, yadda-yadda-yadda)

David Kessner

04:54

@angelatlarge Currently, psych reasons are good enough to fail a background check. The problem is that the current psych-reporting system in this country is hugely broken. I do not see that having a club do the check is going to magically change that.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner I am not sure they need access to your medical records, but I would think that's a better system than a background check. As in "I know this guy, he is going to be a responsible gun owner, and I can stake my reputation on that"

Anindo Ghosh

I'm just playing advocate to both sides here, since I don't have a personal stake in this discussion. I live in a country where if one is rich or connected enough, one can have a gun, one can kill someone in a public place with dozens of witnesses because said victim refused to serve perp more liquor, and the legal system achieves jack sh*t in over a decade. Google Jessica Lal.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge BTW: I am for a better background check system. I just don't know what that would look like without going all Orwellian.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Yes, but I am not sure there is any system that can prevent a guy/gal who cracks one day from doing anything, if people are allowed to have guns at all.

@DavidKessner I am not sure that the club system isn't very Orwellian, but I like that a) it isn't the government and b) that it diffuses the responsibility from a centralized authority. It's like a secret society/mafia kind of a thing.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I can see a lot of, "I know this guy to be an outstanding member of the KKK and should have a gun, and I stake my rep on that".

angelatlarge

04:57

@DavidKessner Well, the losing of sponsorship priviledges idea is supposed to overcome that. No?

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Well, at least there is (presumably) fear of definitive legal action (unless you're a cop), in some countries. Here, I personally know people who boast about the number of people they have harmed even destroyed, and then falsely implicated in court cases, because they can.

Heya @rawbrawb - I fully agree with your comment here earlier (yesterday?) about someone showing their true childish colors and pettiness in that meta post.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh I guess I am assuming that if you have cracked, you could care less about the legal ramifications, right?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge That is a lot like Wikipedia. On a whole, the stuff on WP is good but there are certainly some bad apples. Your club scheme is on a whole good, but there are major areas where it can be abused-- not unlike our current system.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Less, but it's still a conditioned deterrent.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner I think that club system is the Swedish system. I could be wrong, but I certainly didn't invent it.

Anindo Ghosh

05:01

The best club system I can envisage is: Make all weapons other than clubs suddenly corrode into lumps of metal flakes. The flakes who misuse them won't be happy, though.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I forget the exact number, but something like 60-80% of gun related deaths in the US (not counting suicides) are gang related. When you factor in the practicalities of the club system (300 million guns already out there), it makes more sense to tackle gangs directly. My wife works with kids in gangs and can tell you stories that would just break any sane persons heart...

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner I just don't see (intuitively) why "we have a sh*t-ton of guns out there" as a good argument against gun control. What am I missing?

David Kessner

My wife is the director at an alternative school (a school for kids that got expelled from normal schools). Many of her students were at the Aurora Theater shooting, some seriously injured. And most of them are in gangs. I can confidently say that the theater shootings were not the worst part of those kids lives.

rawbrawb

Someone bellow?

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb hellow, I bellow

rawbrawb

05:04

Oh, I see @AnindoGhosh

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Ah, I think I see...

David Kessner

@angelatlarge It's not an argument against gun control. It is an argument against the effectiveness of a specific implementation of gun control proposal.

rawbrawb

NOOOOT you!

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb someone abbove as well ;-)

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh you are a helllow fellow!

angelatlarge

05:06

@DavidKessner Well, it's an argument of the following sort "Let's make an effort to improve these people's lives (root cause) rather than treating the symptom of the problem (violence)", right?

Anindo Ghosh

... and the average mental age of the conversation headed rapidly downhill from there

David Kessner

@angelatlarge For example: We can't just confiscate all guns because we'd never get them all. Actually, we wouldn't get more than 30% of them (by my estimate) which still leaves 200 million out there.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh thank you!

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb ROTFL

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Exactly! By going after the root cause, we also reduce the "collateral damage". In this case, it is my "freedom" to protect myself from bears in the woods. And my "freedom" to shoot some paper targets for fun.

rawbrawb

05:07

@AnindoGhosh I believe that true age is the mean of mental age and physical age ...

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb OK, we've successfully established that you and I both belong in high school. Happy?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge If we remove the guns from the gangs, the gangs will just change to a different weapon. Baseball bats, or IED's.

But if we remove the gangs, then everyone wins. Hopefully.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Or clubs, as has been suggested just now.

@DavidKessner How exactly does the system remove the gangs? I'm curious.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Yeah, but you see, we don't really give two sh*ts about black dudes killing themselves. It's only when white people are involved that we can be bothered to care.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh yep, that means that I mentally/emotionally younger than you.

David Kessner

05:10

@AnindoGhosh Gangs in the U.S. are a cultural thing. Many of them just accept that they won't live past 30, and they accept that there is no life other than gang life. Changing this is not easy (and I don't know how), but it must be done. Even if guns were not in the picture, this should be fixed.

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb I see. Is that a good thing?

@DavidKessner Agree with the motivation, unclear on the mechanism.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh probably

David Kessner

@angelatlarge And that's more hypocrisy. Many pro-gun-control people claim that they want to save lives. But only if it is white lives.

@AnindoGhosh Yup. Sadly, I'm just an EE.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Well, I think there is a more charitable interpretation: it is like terrorism. Events where lots of people get killed (Aurora, Columbine, Sandy Hook) get attention. Events where one person dies are not considered noteworthy.

David Kessner

Another thing with that culture... The girls ADMIRE the guys that have been to prison! Many guys will do something bad only so they can do time, so when they get out of prison the girls will want them more. It is a sad state. And then we get people who blame the justice system for being racist when most of the prisoners are black...

@angelatlarge That is certainly part of it.

angelatlarge

05:15

@DavidKessner In fact, I really don't know what's the difference between Aurora/Sandy Hook and Boston Marathon. Why is one "terrorism" and the other one isn't?

David Kessner

@angelatlarge They were both terrorism, in my opinion. One was domestic. The other had a foreign component.

The OK city bombing was labeled as domestic terrorism when it happened.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Or supposedly a foreign component. I believe there are skeptics who aren't so sure.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Agreed except for the foreign component part :)

@DavidKessner Do you mean the fact that they weren't born here?

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh I don't think there is any doubt that the main guy was a foreign born fundamentalist muslim.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner No, I think there is some doubt whether the two people officially published as the perps were, in fact, not some cover-up of the fact that the actual perps were not identified conclusively.

David Kessner

05:20

@AnindoGhosh Yeah, it was the guy on the grassy knoll. :)

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Foreign born, yes. At some point he became something like a militant. But I am not sure why that's important. I wasn't born here, though I've lived here for most of my life. If I suddenly snapped and killed lots of people, would that be foreign terrorism?

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Ahh, that old chestnut to counter any aspersions cast upon investigative organizations :-) Well played.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge I don't think it is important. It is to some people, but unless there is a foreign government/group involved it shouldn't matter.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge No, that would be attributed to ESD.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh ESD? Not ESR?

Anindo Ghosh

05:22

@DavidKessner Ahhhh, now you're saying exactly what I was implying. We're on the same page.

@angelatlarge ESD.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Ok, we can all agree then.

@AnindoGhosh ESR!

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Group hug! :)

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Wait, I'm not @ed on that that message?

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh (Which ESD do you have in mind? Electrostatic discharge?)

@AnindoGhosh He doesn't hug knolly people

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Electrostatic Damage.

David Kessner

05:24

@AnindoGhosh It is not a group if there is only two!

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner It's a company.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner The grass is greener on the other knoll...

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh Two's compliment, three's a crowd.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner I thought three's high impedance.

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh Only in VHDL.

Anindo Ghosh

05:25

... and the conversation takes a turn from the puerile to the geekily puerile.

angelatlarge

The conversation makes me look up puerile

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh OOOOOohhhhh, that's a $10 word! :)

Anindo Ghosh

LOL I keep forgetting that you chaps aren't products of British Imperial-legacy catholic schools.

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Going back to the foreign thing for a moment... I think that the whole war on terror has done a huge disservice to the American population-- essentially making a lot of people racist against reasonable muslims. I really hope this passes as quickly as it came.

@AnindoGhosh Yeah, that's not us. We're more NASCAR and granola. :)

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Amen to that. But we (as humans) are prone to this.. Japanese internment camps? French attitudes toward Muslims?

@DavidKessner Our natural selves, are kinda POSs.

Anindo Ghosh

05:33

@DavidKessner Interesting. Do you see that as purely an American phenomenon, or would you suggest that such ill-feeling against a particular community extends to other geographies?

David Kessner

(Disclaimer: I do not condone or agree with the Muslim/Islamic religion. But I don't think it makes them terrible people either.)

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh (Asked by a man living in a country that only recently got rid of a caste system)

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Leave that specific religion / faith aside for a moment, but do you not feel that any generalized ill-feeling towards a given community "x" perceived across multiple geographies, including those not sympathetic to the American way, might have deeper roots than a particular major terrorist act or three?

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh It is hard to say. I certainly don't feel comfortable calling other countries a bunch of racists. And I don't feel qualified to talk about other countries.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Hence the insight. And the rumors of the demise of the caste system are vastly exaggerated.

angelatlarge

05:36

@AnindoGhosh Yeah, that's what I thought.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner My point is, the word you are looking for might not be racism.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Mmmm... I am not sure. Go on...

Other-ism?

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge If it were racism, the Boston supposed perps would have had to be of a certain skin color that they evidently are not.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Wait, what?

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge They're not brown, the two brothers, nor of middle-eastern race, are they?

angelatlarge

05:38

@AnindoGhosh BTW, can we replace "supposed perps" with "suspects"?

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh When someone has irrational hostility toward a group, and identifies that group by race then I call that racism.

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge I'll stay with my skepticism on that subject, it's not key to the current discussion, after all.

@DavidKessner Hmm. And if large segments of population, in a variety of geographies, have hostility against subscribers to a particular belief system, let's say flat-earthism, is that (a) racism, and (b) irrational?

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh In Russia, people from the Caucasus have to deal with a great deal of racism. I am not sure if the fact that the Tsarnayev brothers were not middle eastern while possibly being some kind of Moslem makes the sentiment something other than racism in the US.

Anindo Ghosh

I think the racism term is oversimplifying things and missing an underlying basis, is that not so?

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh Well, what if most subscribers to that belief were from a certain region and shared lineage? Like, say, Jews.

@AnindoGhosh I am not sure one way or the other.

Anindo Ghosh

05:42

@angelatlarge Yep, "one way or another" is the kind of balanced viewpoint I've been trying to follow, myself, in this and similar matters.

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh Racism is a loosely defined term. In the U.S., laws specifically addressing racism call it "hate crimes", and can include crimes where race, nationality, color, religion, sexual orientation, etc play a major factor. I use the term Racism loosely to include those as well.

@AnindoGhosh Have you heard of the Westboro Baptist Church?

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner For my money, I'd definitely exclude sexual orientation from "racism".... others... well... I'll hem and haw a bit.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Only in some very negative (I don't know the validity) terms on some news story, and the partisan reporting turned me off, filtered out the message for me.

@DavidKessner Ahh, OK, now I know that the partisan reporting I mentioned was merely the worst of the reporting, but there's a big ugly story underlying it, in any case.

angelatlarge

There. I can pretend to be more tolerant. Sorry 'bout that.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Fair enough. Seen as "hate crime", that makes it clearer to me than racism. Which begs another question...

David Kessner

05:47

@AnindoGhosh What you heard on the news probably painted them in a better light than they deserve. But... People in the U.S. often view all Muslims/Islamics as all being terrible people. It would be like if someone said that all Christians are like the WBC.

Anindo Ghosh

Both sides may be hatin' but which side is largely crimin'?

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh You're fancy street talk goes over my head.

angelatlarge

@AnindoGhosh These are the people who go to disrupt funerals of American soldiers killed in Iraq (say), soldiers whom they have nothing against, with signs "God hates fags". They think Americans are being killed to pay for the sins of homosexuality.

@AnindoGhosh They also came here to Boston to picket the funerals of people killed in the marathon bombings.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner I would assume that hate crime would entail attacks on some "group", without provable personal provocation of the individual committing the attack, by said group or members thereof?

@angelatlarge Yup, see, that is hate crime. I understand that perfectly. I see it locally all the time. I do not condone it.

@DavidKessner "Your"

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh There you go again with your fancy $10 words! :)

Anindo Ghosh

05:51

@DavidKessner Unless you meant "You're Fancy. Street talk etc etc".

►

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh Yes, the attack is usually done mainly because of the victims race/religion/etc and not because of anything the victim specifically did.

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner That's sick behavior, and I'm with you no matter what you want to call it, then.

David Kessner

@AnindoGhosh The intolerance of the US Population towards Muslims/Islamic/Middle Eastern/Etc people has gone much higher, primarily due to the war on terror. And I think it's appalling. If white supremacists from Germany came over here (today) and killed a bunch of people we wouldn't react the same way against all Germans.

jippie

good morning @all

David Kessner

Granted, the actions of Bin Laden & friends didn't help matters, but still...

@jippie Hi!

It is way past my bedtime. I'm outta here! It was a pleasure talking with you @AnindoGhosh and @angelatlarge.

angelatlarge

06:01

@DavidKessner And if you listen to real Moslems talk about bin Ladin & Co., they feel the same way about it as "normal" Christians do about WBC

@DavidKessner Same here.

jippie

@DavidKessner good night sleepy head

Anindo Ghosh

@DavidKessner Sleep well.

angelatlarge

@jippie Hallo deaR @jippie

jippie

hey there @angelatlarge

angelatlarge

<-- this puppy needs to go night-night

jippie

06:02

puppies?

Anindo Ghosh

@angelatlarge Sleep well too.

hiya @jippie

jippie

is cody here too?

angelatlarge

@jippie (I am sure you can make gnuplot sleep for you but not me)

jippie

did I miss anything good that everybody spent the night in here?

angelatlarge

@jippie No, just looking at the starred list

Goodnight

jippie

06:03

Oh you guys have been senseless starring all night?

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