EL&U 2014 Election

Seth

00:00

Would you mind providing a link to Shog's post? I'm not sure which one you are referencing :)

medica

sure, just a minute.

The site is currently closed.

It will go ELU wide is a few minutes, I expect.

So there's no linking to meta,

Seth

You can still read things, and link to them :)

medica

and answers will soon be disallowed as well.

Not if I can't get into meta. Right now, I can't get into meta. But if you can, the post is titled "Can't something de done about childish flagging" or something to that effect.

Seth

This one?

15

A: Do something about puerile chat flagging

suspension is a very harsh thing that should usually be left to a mod It's a half-hour suspension per flagged post. And it takes at least 6 people or a moderator to make that happen, per flagged post. And that's assuming that other high-rep users or moderators don't decline the flags first. ...

medica

Yep!

Look at all the up votes against the commentor's position in comments. Yet this is not new. It is difficult to implement change.

Seth

00:18

I don't really see any support for the OP's position, other than the fact that the flagging system could use some improvements, which is true.

medica

As I stated, it's true there's a lot of evidence that people agree with shog9 and not the OP. But he does have strong supporters.

This situation is not new in chat.

Yet it's difficult to implement change.

For a variety of reasons, many of which are out of the average user's hands.

@Seth I mean, a user went to chat and found what he did, He flagged. This avalanche comes down on him in meta. Who wants that?

hichris123

@medica He didn't flag though. Other people flagged.

medica

someone flagged, I don't know who.

But one of the commenters was in chat that day, as was I. He defended his faith, and was answered with ridicule.

hichris123

oh.

medica

Whoever flagged, if they were known to the OP, they would get a ton of crap.

Theodore Broda

00:25

I have a minor criticism about chat, and I want to know what the candidates/moderators think.

In the chat FAQ, in the section "What can we chat about?", it states "...each room has a defined topic. When talking in a room, it's polite to stay roughly on topic for the room, as defined by the room owners." At first, this seems like a good basis for judging what a room conversation should be about. However, the EL&U chatroom has this for its "topic": "I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay." Shouldn't the topic actually state a topic?

2

medica

ok.

@TheodoreBroda you will find that religion doesn't go over in chat wery well. It would be nice if this wasn't chat's byline, but it isn't directly mocking religion. for that reason, I actually don't mind it.

@TheodoreBroda What do you think, and would you like me to ping the other mod candidates with your question? I'd be happy to do so, and the answers might be interesting.

Theodore Broda

It's not that I find the topic offensive, it's that I find it an inaccurate description of what the chatroom is about. I think that this affects chat flagging as well. If the FAQ bases the appropriateness of a chat comment on the topic, and the "topic" is inaccurate, how can one determine if the chat is inappropriate for a room?

@medica I'll leave it to your discretion. If you thing the other candidates would find this question worthy of discussion, then I would like you to ping them.

medica

@TheodoreBroda The motto of chat changes whenever someone says something really funny to it's users.

I think, since we've been discussing chat, this is a good question.

@MrHen: "In the chat FAQ, in the section "What can we chat about?", it states "...each room has a defined topic. When talking in a room, it's polite to stay roughly on topic for the room, as defined by the room owners." At first, this seems like a good basis for judging what a room conversation should be about.

However, the EL&U chatroom has this for its "topic": "I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay." Shouldn't the topic actually state a topic?"

@Mahnax: A user asks: "In the chat FAQ, in the section "What can we chat about?", it states "...each room has a defined topic. When talking in a room, it's polite to stay roughly on topic for the room, as defined by the room owners." At first, this seems like a good basis for judging what a room conversation should be about.

"However, the EL&U chatroom has this for its "topic": "I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay." Shouldn't the topic actually state a topic?"

@MattЭллен: A user asks: "In the chat FAQ, in the section "What can we chat about?", it states "...each room has a defined topic. When talking in a room, it's polite to stay roughly on topic for the room, as defined by the room owners." At first, this seems like a good basis for judging what a room conversation should be about.

"However, the EL&U chatroom has this for its "topic": "I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay." Shouldn't the topic actually state a topic?"

Shog9

...you can ping multiple people in one message; you don't need to re-post it

medica

@phenry, @YoichiOishi, @Fractured Retina,: A user asks: "In the chat FAQ, in the section "What can we chat about?", it states "...each room has a defined topic. When talking in a room, it's polite to stay roughly on topic for the room, as defined by the room owners." At first, this seems like a good basis for judging what a room conversation should be about.

"However, the EL&U chatroom has this for its "topic": "I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay." Shouldn't the topic actually state a topic?"

@Shog9 ok, just repart @... @...?

Shog9

00:36

yeah

Theodore Broda

Thanks, @medica.

medica

@TheodoreBroda My pleasure.

Theodore Broda

I also disapprove of inside jokes like "pineapple", as was discussed earlier. Chat can be confusing to new users (I know it was to me), and I think that using such jokes can alienate new chat users.

medica

@shog9, can I ask you to add Manhax and oerkelens to the owners of this room?

Shog9

@medica they are already

phenry

00:40

@medica - oh, I don't know. It ridicules religion and non-native speakers in a single sentence. Seems to me it's the perfect summary of the ELU chat room.

medica

@TheodoreBroda why don't you flag those comments in chat? That's what flags are for. And Mods.

@Shog9 when I try to @o, nothing happens

Shog9

@medica been too long since he was in here then

medica

I see Manhax is OK

phenry

...seriously, what the hell is the deal with that message? Did someone think it was funny? Why has it been there for so long? Hasn't it occurred to anyone before now that it ought to be changed?

medica

oh

@phenry it's been up for maybe a couple of weeks. Of course they think it's funny. And it is funny. It speaks more to how drunk the commenter was than to the invalidity of religion.

phenry

00:43

So yes, if I'm a moderator, I'd get that changed tout de suite.

medica

Anyway, things like that should be flagged by people who find it offensive.

phenry

But I'd also want to know who did it so I could tell them it ain't okay.

medica

@phenry (oh, I'm so sorry. I interrupted your answer to someone else.)

phenry

@medica - and this is something we want to broadcast to the world for two weeks? How we get drunk and say stupid things?

medica

@phenry - you need to address your answer to @TheodoreBroda, I guess. I'm sorry I screwed that up.

phenry

00:46

@TheodoreBroda, come see this thingy here, if you haven't already. Ping ping.

Theodore Broda

@phenry Don't worry; I recognized that your answer was addressed to my question.

phenry

cool.

You're absolutely right. Even apart from being stupid and borderline offensive, it doesn't address the topic and displays contempt for users of the chat system.

medica

@Mahnax, @MrHen, @MattЭллен, @YoichiOishi, @oerkelens, @FracturedRetina, the above question was asked bu Theodore Broda. Please ping him in your answer so he will see your response.

Theodore Broda

@phenry Thanks. I'm glad that at least a few candidates see why I have objections here.

Anyways, expanding on my old point, I think that there should be a guide for each room (not just the very general FAQ) that explains to new users what topics are commonly discussed, which topics are appropriate for discussion, and whether new users are welcome to just join in on the conversation. I think just pulling up chat right away without a "welcome screen" and showing the "crazy" (to say the least) conversations that occur can be disconcerting for new users.

medica

@AndrewLeach: TheodoreBroda asked a question (above) about chat's current topic/motto. Can you please ping him when you answer, so that he will see your response? Thanks.

hichris123

00:51

21

Q: One page wikis to store all the chat room's nuggets and references

Chat rooms should have some kind of page that captures all the essence and go-to questions that can often come up, but aren't easily searched. A reference point. A one page wiki. The page should be editable only by the room owners, but visible to all that have normal viewing access. This would...

medica

hooray! Thank you!

phenry

@medica - well, that sounds like a practice that's due for reexamination.

hichris123

Oh, looks like it's a play off of this:

in English Language & Usage, Apr 29 at 11:51, by RegDwigнt

0

Q: More Drunk or Drunker?

I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay. Now I am (more drunk/drunker)?

grammar

medica

@hichris123 May I ask how you found that?

Theodore Broda

@hichris123 Yes! This is precisely the feature that I was attempting to explain, but written much more eloquently. I think such a feature will benefit both new and old users of chat.

hichris123

00:55

@medica Randomly looking at the transcript (actually, searching for room topic changed, and then reading the transcript around there).

medica

@hichris123 I am not savvy enough to know these somewhat basic skills. I really need to become more adept, which is why I asked. Thank you.

hichris123

@medica Nah, it's something I stumbled upon by accident. I was bored, so...

not a basic skill though. ;)

medica

@hichris123 Interestingly, that question is POB. If he is that drunk, the answer is More drunk. If it's grammar, it's drunker. ;) j/k

@hichris123 To me, who knows so little about computers, I cannot differentiate basic from advanced skill. I tend to think everyone knows how to do thinks I can't.

I hope to remedy this quickly.

phenry

@hichris123 - So it is making fun of a non-native speaker. And it was a moderator who brought it in. And it's been two months. Awesome.

hichris123

@phenry Apparently.

Any suggestions?

medica

01:02

It's not a very good thing for chat to do, is it?

phenry

@hichris123 - well, I think the practice of using "funny" but inscrutable room taglines needs to be discontinued. If I am elected moderator, it's certainly something I intend to bring up. I hope the other candidates feel the same way.

Theodore Broda

@phenry Thank you for taking my concern seriously.

phenry

@TheodoreBroda - Thank you for bringing it up.

tchrist

@phenry You can always create your own room and have your way with its scrutability. You seem to forget the @RegDwigнt himself is not a native speaker either. His room titles are always funny; would you therefore see amusements outlawed?

medica

See?

Damned if you care, damned if you don't.

Theodore Broda

01:10

@tchrist If the amusement of a select few comes at the expense of causing bafflement for new chat users visiting the "flagship" chat for EL&U, then yes.

medica

@tchrist In case you're unaware, a chat user asked this question.

tchrist

@medica You just summed up all of life in so brief a statement I am tempted to call you eloquent.

medica

i am honored.

tchrist

@medica Was not.

medica

@tchrist Yes, it was. It was brought up by someone who has been using chat for at least a couple of weeks now.

Theodore Broda

01:15

@tchrist I also don't like the term "own room". The rooms are public, and new users naturally want to visit a popular room on their preferred topic when they first visit chat. If all the major rooms (especially one called EL&U, which new users will logically assume is the primary chatroom for EL&U users) seem exclusive, it will discourage new users from using this valuable feature. I think I have a valid concern, and "so RegDwigнt can be amused" does not seem like a satisfactory answer.

phenry

Most of the flagship chat rooms have taglines that at least have something to do with the subject matter of the parent site, although some are a little esoteric. Ours is the only one I see that doesn't. I just think that puts out a "stay away from here, ye uninitiated" vibe. Maybe that's the point. If it is, it shouldn't be.

hichris123

Yeah, at least add something about the site.

Funny taglines are okay, but... tell people what to talk about, too.

Theodore Broda

@tchrist And when the Chat FAQ defines that the "room topic" field should accurately describe what the room topic is (logically), I think @RegDwigнt should follow these rules, even if it is "his room" to do with what he pleases. His choices affect the quality of chat for other users, especially new ones.

@phenry That is exactly the vibe I got when I first used chat. Fortunately, @JasperLoy was courteous enough to extend a greeting and explain some of the "customs" of the chat room, but not all new users receive that same introduction, although they should.

I am not trying to upset the long-established norms of the EL&U chatroom (or any chatroom), but I think there can be some easy improvements that make the experience for new users significantly better without adversely affecting old users.

tchrist

 1. English Language and Usage: General discussion for English Language and Usage
 2. English Language and Usage: General discussion for English Language and Usage
 3. English Language and Usage: General discussion about God
 4. English Language and Usage: General discussion about God. По-русски.
 5. English Language and Usage: General discussion about English Language and Usage
 6. English Language and Usage: In this room, language learns you!
 7. English Language and Usage: aka The Incomprehensible Room

There are only three duplicates:

English Language & Usage: aka The Incomпrehensible Room
English Language and Usage: aka The Incomprehensible Room
English Language and Usage: General discussion for English Language and Usage

Theodore Broda

I have to go for now, but I will check back in periodically for candidates' answers to my question. Thank you @phenry and @medica for your prompt responses and help with my humble query.

tchrist

01:29

I am rather unhappy to see this election turn into some sort of “vote of confidence” for the current set of active moderators, and to try to zing Reg on his room titles is not merely petty but also distracts from the real issues at hand.

medica

Thank you for asking.

@tchrist I have never slammed a mod before, and am very vocal in my support. Please substantiate your claims, as I'm sure other mod candidates feel the same way I do.

tchrist

It became irreparably incomprehensible on May 21 '11 1:05 PM and has largely remained so ever since.

30 mins ago, by phenry

@hichris123 - So it is making fun of a non-native speaker. And it was a moderator who brought it in. And it's been two months. Awesome.

hichris123

in English Language & Usage, 7 secs ago, by hichris123

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: General discussion for English Language and Usage. I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay. (no tags)

Anyone have a fit with that?

medica

@tchrist If you look in my meta comments, I support and trust the mods here. I believe they are doing a great job, RegDwight included. Please tell me where we have each taken up that platform.

tchrist

No straw horses, please.

phenry

01:32

@tchrist - None of us here had any idea who was responsible for the room title until @hichris123 's impressive detective work. I certainly didn't set out to "zing" anybody.

tchrist

I cited the point that was made.

medica

@tchrist to whom are you addressing your comment?

phenry

But yeah, you know what, a moderator who treats the site's main chatroom like a private playpen for himself and his cronies is not someone I have confidence in. Since you bring it up.

tchrist

@phenry That’s a very aggressive statement, even a potentially offensive one. As one of “his cronies”, I not only represent that remark, I resent it.

On Jun 10 9:47 AM       RegDwigнt      English Language & Usage: I am in a party. The wine is depleted. Then some Son of God manufacture even more win. Yay.”
On May 16 2:42 PM       RegDwigнt      English Language & Usage: The Incomprehensible Room. It slaws your typizg, too.”
On Jan 15 3:05 PM       RegDwigнt      English Language & Usage: The Incomprehensible Room. All languages spoken. At once.”
On Dec 22 '13 11:33 AM  RegDwigнt      English Language & Usage: Is or "verse" or a homonym of "verse" another word for versus?”

I actually believe in meritocracies.

phenry

@tchrist - I wouldn't have said it if I didn't mean it.

tchrist

01:38

@phenry Even worse.

hichris123

Let's get stay on-topic please (ironically enough).

tchrist

@phenry Since you will not retract your offensive remark, I can see that /ignore was the only sane place to keep you, and thither you return. Good bye.

phenry

I would be very interested in seeing statistics on the user and message distribution in the ELU main room vs. the other main rooms. My hypothesis is that we have a smaller core of chat users that post a higher percentage of messages than the network average for main rooms.

medica

I want to be another pair of hands for the present mods, who I feel might be overworked. I also want to be friendlier and more welcoming to new users. I would like to improve the quality of the questions and answers in any way I could. Add to that, I want to check the proliferation of examples of unacceptable behavior (name-calling, obscenity, and overt bullying - which I have not mentioned until now) off the front page.

This allegation is untrue and unfair, and if you believe otherwise, please point out specifics. It is only fair.

Cerberus

@phenry Okay, lost my vote.

medica

01:44

@tchrist I don't know why your name doesn't appear at the beginning of the comment I made, but I am addressing the above to you.

phenry

@Cerberus - I'm sorry you feel that way. You must do what you think is right.

medica

@Cerberus Vote your conscience. Everybody should.

Cerberus

I shall.

tchrist

@medica I already did so. It was from @ignore’s attack on Reg, which I find out of bounds, out of proportion, and out of taste.

phenry

This is not a fight I set out to pick. I have avoided mentioning any moderators by name until now.

Cerberus

01:46

Look, I wholly support your initiative to be friendlier towards new users, 100 %.

medica

@tchrist Who is @ignore? Where is his comment, and why are you misrepresenting all the candidates?

phenry

If a moderator has done something that I think is bad for the site, I am going to mention it. I would hope that anyone would do the same about me, if I'm elected.

Cerberus

I like a constructive approach, not talking down our favourite moderator of all time.

medica

@Cerberus Moderators are not lost in elections. They are gained.

Cerberus

Apparently not...

medica

01:49

how so?

phenry

@Cerberus - I hope that this discussion can be constructive. I doubt that the moderator in question intended any malice. But it contributes to a culture that some feel pushes people away, when it should be doing the opposite.

Cerberus

I like dealing with behaviour that is actually unfriendly, not with anything else.

I don't want to change everything about the site.

tchrist

19 mins ago, by tchrist

30 mins ago, by phenry

@hichris123 - So it is making fun of a non-native speaker. And it was a moderator who brought it in. And it's been two months. Awesome.

medica

@tchrist Thank you for responding to my comment. I appreciate it. Now, everyone who reads this chat will know exactly to what you are referring.

tchrist

Please stop overreaching. I am perfectly capable of opening my mouth to change feet without you seizing the opportunity to insert words into it that it never said.

Cerberus

01:53

@TheodoreBroda I'm nearly always in the room, and I always greet new users when I see them.

phenry

@Cerberus - Nobody wants to change everything about the site. We all want to keep the things that are good and change the things that are not good.

Cerberus

I don't want fun traditions changed that are not the unfriendly behaviour of one person towards another person.

phenry

40 mins ago, by Theodore Broda

@tchrist I also don't like the term "own room". The rooms are public, and new users naturally want to visit a popular room on their preferred topic when they first visit chat. If all the major rooms (especially one called EL&U, which new users will logically assume is the primary chatroom for EL&U users) seem exclusive, it will discourage new users from using this valuable feature. I think I have a valid concern, and "so RegDwigнt can be amused" does not seem like a satisfactory answer.

Cerberus

Those users proficient enough will laugh and appreciate the joke of having incorrect English in the topic.

Including those just proficient enough.

phenry

Fun traditions are great, but if they contribute to pushing people away, maybe they should be reexamined.

Cerberus

01:57

I think they may even attract people.

tchrist

I can say nothing about Reg’s moderator duties beyond that I trust his judgment over my own in this, which should suffice. But the thing people are forgetting is that SE really is a meritocracy, and those who have done the most work are garlanded with more privileges. Just in terms of edits alone, Reg has done more visible work on the site than everyone else put together.

Cerberus

@phenry The room topic can be a fun introduction to a conversation about grammar: I have seen it happen. And it can be a starting point for less proficient users to learn something.

tchrist

Cerberus

Why editors?

I want to be in the list!

Mahnax

@phenry Can we reach some sort of compromise here? I've been observing this discussion off and on for a little while now, and I'd like to point out that chat rooms often develop cultures, memes, and cliques. Take the Gaming chat room. It has a culture of its own. That's why these sorts of room descriptions occur. While I agree that it's arguably distasteful to make fun of English learners, I think that the notion that the chat room topic discourages users might be flawed. [TBC]

After all, we still get questions in there from users who aren't regular chat users. And they very frequently get answered!

Cerberus

02:01

Exactly.

phenry

@Cerberus - I loves me some wrong-talking English stuff. But this was a message that specifically had the hallmarks of non-native English speech (i.e., the preposition confusion of "in a party"). In isolation, maybe that's not so bad. But given that non-native speakers have remarked several times at our meta site that they're made to feel unwelcome here, it contributes to an ugly dynamic, and we should be more sensitive to that.

Cerberus

@phenry What we should do something about is when people are unfriendly towards new users when they ask a Question, mainly in the comments. We know that this is what makes them feel unwelcome. The dynamic is 100 % clear and understood. Your theory about the room topic, have you any proof that this turns off many users?

tchrist

@Cerberus Open discussion: Why do only 3 out of 9 candidates in this election appear on the list of editors above? IM!HO, the three who do appear there merit special mention — and thanks.

Cerberus

I presume it doesn't count if you edit your own post?

tchrist

@Cerberus Right.

phenry

02:05

@Mahnax - Same thing, really. It's a mistake to look at the chatroom in isolation. One little thing here, one little thing there, not a problem. But I don't think it's inappropriate to point out that, hey, you probably didn't mean anything by this, but it doesn't really look good.

Cerberus

@tchrist OK.

Mahnax

@phenry Sorry, the last part of your sentence there is kind of awkward, and I just want to clarify: are you saying that the issue you have brought up doesn't look good, or are you saying that my response doesn't look good?

Cerberus

@phenry I don't understand why you suggest it isn't clear what turns off new users.

tchrist

Besides reputation and badges, those are the people who are actively working to make the site better. And we need more editors.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Probably the room topic.

Mahnax

02:07

@Cerberus That's what I'm thinking, I just want to be clear.

Cerberus

OK.

phenry

@Mahnax - I'm saying that the room topic makes us look bad, and I don't think it's out of bounds to point that out.

Cerberus

I don't think it does.

And I don't think chat is really the problem.

Mahnax

@phenry Absolutely agreed. You are well within your rights there.

Cerberus

What evidence do you have that chat turns off new users?

We have lots of Meta questions from angry users. The problem and its location are clear enough, I think.

Hi Manis!

Mahnax

02:08

I was also addressing @TheodoreBroda's concerns about the room topic. I would also like to add that since our main ELU site links directly to the chat room, and since it is also our main chat room, I do not know how necessary it is to establish that it is the English chat in the room topic.

Cerberus

"English Language & Usage" is the title of the chat room: it's clearly visible in chat, in big letters.

tchrist

@Mahnax Not only that, but up until a few minutes ago, the very first words in the title have (well, had) always said the name of the site.

Cerberus

I think room topics are mainly meant for other than main room, like rooms that have a special purpose.

Mahnax

Yes. I agree in that I don't think chat is the problem here: I would love to focus on being genuinely kind to new users on the main site. In my three years in chat, I have seen many, many positive encounters between visitors to the chat and regular users.

phenry

@Cerberus - well, @TheodoreBroda was the person who brought this up, and he said he found it off-putting.

Cerberus

02:11

@phenry The title of the Linguistics room is: lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

@phenry And yet he stayed...

If anything is telling people "this room is for the in-crowd only", it's lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks.

"We don't want people here who don't know IPA!".

phenry

@Cerberus - well, yeah. We don't have a lot of data from people who leave and never come back.

tchrist

@Cerberus Which clearly is belittling of those unschooled in the mysteries of IPA, eh? :)

jinx

Cerberus

@phenry They could complain on Meta. We have lots of complaints on Meta.

@tchrist Yes. And that is in fact what it does, a little bit. But that's all right: it's funny and stimulating, and people will be sparked to ask questions about it.

medica

@tchrist Please pull all time Close Vote reviews, first question reviewers, Low Quality Post reviewers, Suggested Edits reviewers, etc. as well. Edits are not the only moderator function.

tchrist

@Cerberus Funny is apparently to be outlawed, since it is funny only to cronies and other evil henchman of our malificent overlords. :)

Cerberus

02:14

If you take over a company, it is unwise to change all the stationary and other small things unless you're sure it will have a great effect. Those responsible rarely are.

phenry

@Cerberus - ah, but IPA actually has something to do with linguistics. There are several main chatrooms that use their own argot in the title (although really, is "lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks" that hard to decipher?).

57 mins ago, by phenry

Most of the flagship chat rooms have taglines that at least have something to do with the subject matter of the parent site, although some are a little esoteric. Ours is the only one I see that doesn't. I just think that puts out a "stay away from here, ye uninitiated" vibe. Maybe that's the point. If it is, it shouldn't be.

Cerberus

@phenry My point is that it may be off-putting to new users, in theory. But probably not in practice.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus And despite the name, EL&U users who visit the chat room for the first time can feel perplexed and excluded when greeted with a bizarre "topic" that looks nothing like the ones described in the Chat FAQ and discursive, sometimes obnoxious posts that have nothing to do with the "topic" that you so doctrinairely state is "obvious". When I first visited, the "topic" seemed more like a shibboleth than an actual description of the room's frequent topics. It was quite disconcerting.

Cerberus

Disconcerting?

tchrist

@medica Do please feel free. But I believe that almost everything a moderator does is chores akin to taking out the garbage. It is not a fun job.

Cerberus

02:16

But why?

You know every room has running gags and everything.

Just look at the conversation in any of the larger rooms.

tchrist

Culture.

Cerberus

You will not understand much of it, if you enter at the wrong moment.

Surely that dwarfs any effect room topics might have?

Mahnax

> General Arqade chat room, wherein we salute Mana's reign of terror and stares and welcome StrixVaria's year of mandatory.

phenry

@Cerberus - Possibly. It's hardly the biggest problem we face--it's nowhere near the top, really.

medica

@tchrist I don't know how to post those things, or I would. You have pulled one function to characterize us all who aren't on that particular list.

Cerberus

02:17

@Mahnax Haha, nice.

tchrist

@Mahnax Horrible!

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Perhaps not in your case. But for those of us who find such unintuitive "culture" confusing (like myself), the experience was a little more jarring.

Mahnax

@phenry @TheodoreBroda How do you feel about Arqade's topic? Genuine question, I do not wish to be inflammatory.

Cerberus

@phenry Then I would propose that we reserve our criticism for more pressing issues.

tchrist

@Mahnax That a game room should have a playful topic, how . . . apropos.

phenry

02:18

@Cerberus - I was asked a question, I answered it.

Cerberus

@TheodoreBroda Compared with the actual conversations, about weird running gags and abstruse linguistic topics?

@phenry Okay.

tchrist

@Cerberus Obstr. :)

Cerberus

@tchrist Mana's reign of terror...pretty off-putting!

@tchrist My apologies.

Mahnax

> This is NOT a place for 'Live Support', Ask questions on the main site. // Rated 18+ for Language, Adult Humor, Adult Content, Adult Themes, Mild Peril and Sexual Content.

tchrist

If you’re going to be obstruse, might as well go all the way.

Cerberus

02:19

@Mahnax Yay!

Mahnax

From ServerFault.

Theodore Broda

@Mahnax I think their topic could possibly use some improvement, too. But I am not a gamer; maybe these references are familiar to even amateur gamers. However, I can tell you that the EL&U topic is confusing for new users, and we should not necessarily look to the game room for what a good topic should be.

tchrist

@Mahnax What, grown-ups?

medica

@Cerberus Just out of curiosity, have you read all of Theorodore Broda's comments?

phenry

@TheodoreBroda - This is why I don't like to visit chatrooms in general. To some extent, they're inherently exclusionary, due to a core of regulars coalescing and developing their own in-jokes and such. So that's something one needs to be aware of and prepared for coming in.

Mahnax

02:21

@phenry It's very difficult to keep memes from happening.

Cerberus

@medica Which?

phenry

@Mahnax - Yep.

tchrist

@Mahnax That is the most screw-you room topic I’ve seen in the last kilosecond. Definitely puts ours to shame. Surely we can do better on our putting.

medica

@Cerberus All of them. Which started the investigation of chat by an outside moderator.

phenry

But I wish that the really inside stuff could mostly take place in another room--they're free, after all--and that the main room look a little less actively exclusionary.

medica

02:22

Clearly there was discomfort expressed.

Cerberus

@phenry That is absolutely true, but A) it cannot be prevented, and B) in a good chat room, new users can learn enough in-jokes or bring in enough interesting stuff of their own to become part of the group in a couple of days. I have seen it happen many times in this room.

medica

That he returns doesn't mean that he has no discomfort today.

Cerberus

Even so, I agree that perhaps sometimes we could be a little more welcoming towards new chatters. But: deeds, not symbols!

@medica You mean chat lines? Not Comments on questions and answers?

tchrist

@Cerberus Are you sure you didn’t attend a Jesuit school? :)

phenry

@Cerberus - Is it necessary that people become "part of the group," or even want to, in order to use the chat function of this site? When I began my friendliness jihad six months ago I got accused of wanting to turn ELU into a social network. Well, our chat room is pretty much all social network and very little English discussion.

Cerberus

02:24

@phenry I don't want drastic changes that would affect many people negatively unless there is definitive proof that this will be a very significant benefit.

medica

@Cerberus I mean the chat comments that lead to all this. Chat here in the election chat.

Theodore Broda

@phenry My issue is that new users come to the chatroom with the expectation that experienced users will be welcoming towards curious users with similar interests. However, they are often thrust into the midst of an exclusionary clique and desperately try to figure out how to conform to the arbitrary, unintuitive norms of the chat room. While @cerberus may greet new people, not every experienced user is that receptive to newcomers.

Cerberus

@tchrist Is that a Jesuit saying?

tchrist

@Cerberus “Faith without works is dead.”

phenry

@TheodoreBroda - True.

Cerberus

02:25

@phenry It is not necessary in the deontological sense, but it is just how it always goes, in any chat room that isn't half dead.

tchrist

Which is a bit kinder than saying Put your money where your mouth is, but works out the same way in the end.

Cerberus

And people don't need to become part of the group. They can jump in and ask a question, and some people will usually answer their question.

medica

@TheodoreBroda address this to the chat room users who are here to discuss chat.

Cerberus

@TheodoreBroda Sure, so that is deeds: we could make more of an effort to greet and engage new users in the room.

tchrist

The ELU chat room is wholly ancillary to the ELU site proper, and it is there that most of the work needs doing — not in the chat room. The site proper has much more relevance.

Cerberus

02:27

@tchrist Ah. Would that it were...

phenry

@Cerberus - A hypothetical: If the ELU chatroom regulars were to move most of their more irre(vere|leva)nt discussion to a new Let Your Hair Down Room in order to keep the main room mostly on topic about English, would that be a drastic change?

Cerberus

@tchrist I agree. The complains are about unfriendly comments and questions that are closed and receive negative votes too quickly.

Mahnax

@phenry In some ways it's useful to keep the two combined: our high-rep users tend to gather in the main room, and with so many people around, when questions do get asked they are often answered.

phenry

@Mahnax - That is true.

tchrist

@Cerberus Perhaps so, but those are not moderator functions to govern.

Mahnax

02:29

If we separated the two, would questions asked in the new chat for English questions be answered?

That's something that would have to be considered.

Cerberus

@phenry There was a time when a few of the ultra-regular had their own room. The result was that the main room was devoid of conversation for long stretches of time. I have seen many deadish rooms on smaller SE sites, and I really think that is a bigger problem: if there is no lively conversation most of the time, new users quickly leave chat.

@Mahnax Yeah, this.

phenry

@Cerberus, @Mahnax - You both make good counter-arguments.

Cerberus

@tchrist Perhaps there can be a little bit of steering.

tchrist

How?

Cerberus

@Mahnax I honestly have to say I probably would not be there as often.

medica

02:30

@tchrist would it be too much to ask you to show me how to capture the information on the other moderator functions performed by users?

Cerberus

@phenry OK so all I'm asking is that we don't do stuff that may or may not have a positive effect if it is certain to piss of many people.

tchrist

@medica I dunno, how do you feel about writing a perl script? :)

Mahnax

Overall, @phenry and @TheodoreBroda, I understand your concerns and I do value them. @TheodoreBroda, I would like to apologize for any discomfort you felt and may continue to feel as a result of the strange room topics.

phenry

@Cerberus - I think we're in agreement on that.

hichris123

@Cerberus They used to be a moderator, but got busy so stepped down. :(

medica

02:31

@tchrist you know how competant (not) I am...

Cerberus

If, indeed, we get a lot more evidence like what Theo said, then I'd be in favour of changing the room topic.

Theodore Broda

@cerberus @tchrist You make it seem like chat room culture is logical and intuitive. For instance, when I joined EL&U chat, I was confused by the "Kitsox" bot and the corresponding commands (I did not even know it was a bot at first). I think new users should be familiarized with this before they enter chat. I was also not familiar with how to use the "reply" feature or what messages were appropriate to "star". New users deserve an introduction.

Cerberus

@hichris123 Scary!!

tchrist

I rather like “English Language & Usage: Celebrating incomprehensibility since ЭмЭмИкс” myself, but then I’m biased that way.

Cerberus

@TheodoreBroda Ah OK. Perhaps the bot should be in the topic (not that I am a fan of the bot, but anyway).

tchrist

02:33

@TheodoreBroda Not possible.

Cerberus

@TheodoreBroda As to the Reply function and others: isn't that kind of SE's problem? I have never seen a room that had general chat functions explained in the topic. We normally teach those things to new users fairly soon through chatting.

Theodore Broda

@Mahnax Thank you for listening to my concerns.

Cerberus

@tchrist We could add, "Oh, and Kitsox is a bot."

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, exactly. You cannot possibly preörient firsttimers before their first time there.

medica

@TheodoreBroda I actually said hello to kit sox. It was funny. That's so minor that I don't think it's really on topic here.

tchrist

02:34

Or anywhere.

Like the mechanics of how SE works in general.

phenry

@Cerberus - Really, looking at the long list of former taglines, the only one I really have a problem with is the current one, because with no context (i.e., the only way 99.9 percent of viewers will ever encounter it) it just looks like someone's poor English is being ridiculed.

Cerberus

@tchrist Well, I actually think SE should put up a big button that gives you a pop-up with all chat functions. But SE wants to be like VIM and hide semi-advanced functions for people unfamiliar with them. Like even some of the formatting in questions.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Yes, I was just using this to illustrate the kind of confusion that new users experience. I feel that a small minority of experienced users take their knowledge for granted and expect new users to just "guess", which isn't possible. I did receive a lot of help from you, @skullpatrol, @medica, @JasperLoy, and many other users, but I fear that this necessary assistance may not be given uniformly or comprehensively.

tchrist

@Cerberus It’s already hard enough to get new querents to toggle the green check mark. To require a firsttimer to pre-attend a Little Chatters Class and answer thee these questions three ere the inner chat he see seems a bit utopian.

But vim is a wonder, for it has no clutter.

Cerberus

@phenry Is it the same as what I see now? I didn't know what it was at first, but I assumed there had to be some context I didn't get, because it was so odd. Then at some point I found out, and it was funny. Then I forgot, and now I'm back at "no clue, must be funny in context".

@TheodoreBroda Are you still talking about chat functions?

@tchrist Just a big button, "chat functions". It's easy.

Near the typing area.

phenry

02:38

@Cerberus - I think someone just added the "General discussion for English Language and Usage" intro, but otherwise yeah.

medica

I never knew elections were this much fun.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Yes. Sorry, the discussion moves so fast that I barely have enough time to type a coherent reply before another intriguing point is raised.

Cerberus

@tchrist It's easy to have no clutter when you just don't provide users with any info!

@phenry OK, right.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Exactly!

phenry

"Celebrating incomprehensibility since ЭмЭмИкс" is funny. "I am in a party..." just says "You don't get our in-jokes, probably because you suck."

Cerberus

02:39

@TheodoreBroda You take too much time to polish your English to perfection!

tchrist

@Cerberus It’s all in your head. I don’t even look at the keyboard when I type vi commands to fold, spindle, and mutilate my text. It’s in muscle-memory.

Cerberus

Make typos, it's fun!

tchrist

You typo too fasto for me to anso.

medica

@TheodoreBroda Is this really on topic here?

Cerberus

@phenry I really don't understand why you see that message. Do you get that too from those other room topics Mahnax posted? To me, they say, "look, we have fun in-jokes, come join us and learn them!".

Theodore Broda

02:41

@Cerberus I shall never consciously allow a typographical error! My OCD precludes such an occurrence.

Cerberus

@tchrist Neither do I, but only for common functions, and not the first time I use them. Nor the second time.

Nor ever, if there is always too much time in between.

Theodore Broda

@medica Sorry! I'll stick to the topic.

medica

@TheodoreBroda thank you.

Cerberus

@TheodoreBroda Hmm the next time I see an error in your typing, you shall hear it!

phenry

@Cerberus - The other room topics make me think "I bet that would be funny if I knew anything about anime/theoretical physics/vacuum cleaners/whatever".

Cerberus

02:42

@phenry No, no, the bit about Mana's reign of terror, and the 18+ part.

tchrist

@TheodoreBroda It is not your conscious errors that concern your conscience, but your unconscious ones that plague it, the ones that linger long past the two-minute FIXME bell.

Mahnax

@TheodoreBroda I'd like to understand your position better. Are you opposed to fun chat topics altogether? How do you suggest we cater to new users in the way you recommend?

medica

@Cerberus Can you please consider limiting your comments to election matters as well? Changing chat is an election matter. Theo's typing is not. Just asking.

Theodore Broda

@phenry Yes. There is a difference between humor and exclusivity, and it should be acknowledged.

Cerberus

@tchrist The ones that Robusto waits exactly to minutes to point out to you.

medica

02:44

@tchrist Can you please consider limiting your comments to election matters as well? Changing chat is an election matter. Theo's typing is not. Just asking.

Theodore Broda

@tchrist Precisely... two minutes is not adequate for comprehensive proofreading. But if I linger longer, the conversation moves along without me.

Cerberus

@medica Oh, come on, we can make a little joke here and there. It's not like the whole conversation has been hijacked.

medica

@TheodoreBroda asking again

@Cerberus it has been

Cerberus

@phenry So fun?

By the way, someone flagged your line.

Someone without a sense of humour: I clicked "invalid" as fast as I could!

Mahnax

I have one thing I'd like to address, if we could shift the topic slightly.

Cerberus

02:45

Please.

phenry

@Cerberus - Honestly, not really. It kind of makes me not want to know those people.

Cerberus

Strange.

medica

@TheodoreBroda, @tchrist, @Cerberus, @phenry This is why there were so many deletions in the comments before. Because it's not on topic.

tchrist

@Cerberus Hemerinely. And as here. :)

Cerberus

@phenry I think it would attract many people.

phenry

02:46

@Cerberus - I saw that, and now it's gone. Weird. I didn't even know I had flag review capabilities. Shows you how little I use the chat feature.

Cerberus

@medica These aren't comments, the term is a bit confusing.

Theodore Broda

@Mahnax It is not humor that I oppose, but merely perpetuating a secret joke that cannot be understood by glancing through the recent transcript that I dislike.

Mahnax

I do not mean to be inflammatory, @phenry, I just want a bit of further explanation of this, if you'd please:

1 hour ago, by phenry

But yeah, you know what, a moderator who treats the site's main chatroom like a private playpen for himself and his cronies is not someone I have confidence in. Since you bring it up.

Cerberus

@phenry Yeah it's just weird.

Mahnax

As a regular chat user I take that seriously.

I would like to know why you feel this way and if there's something we're doing wrong—if so, let's talk.

medica

02:47

@Cerberus @TheodoreBroda. @tchrist, @phenry: what are they? Chat statements? whatever they are, they are certainly irrelevant.

Cerberus

Chat lines.

tchrist

@Cerberus Heh.

Cerberus

@medica Comments are what's below questions and answers.

@tchrist That wasn't funny.

tchrist

@Cerberus Which is why it was.

Cerberus

(I sometimes capitalize Comments, Answers, and Questions to be sure.)

phenry

02:49

@Mahnax - That was a response to an earlier message saying that we (or maybe just me) are trying to turn this election into a vote of confidence on the current moderators.

If the "confidence" line looks indelicate without that context, I'm sorry.

But I don't think it was a good idea to choose a chat line that looks like it's ridiculing a non-native speaker.

Mahnax

@phenry Yes. I am more interested in the bit about "cronies"—that's easily interpreted as a personal attack on not only myself, but a number of other chat users.

medica

@phenry, @Cerberus, @TheodoreBroda, @tchrist: Can we please stop now? Keep it on topic to the elections and things that matter, not typing speed and bots in chat. This is not only degenerating into pettiness, but is as indicative of the site as unfriendly comments.

Fine.

Thank you.

phenry

@Mahnax - I don't wish to attack anyone. I could parse my earlier statement more than that, but it wouldn't be a useful exercise.

Theodore Broda

@Mahnax A "wiki page" specific to the chat room, as described here, would be an ideal way to cater to new users. However, should that not be possible, I think a proper room topic, like "The chat room for English Language enthusiasts and Kitsox the bot (visitors welcome too)" would suffice.

Mahnax

@phenry I was just about to say that I feel like I should have left it alone. Perhaps it's best we move on.

medica

02:53

Please.

phenry

@Mahnax - Totally cool. I just wanted to make that clear.

Mahnax

@phenry OK. Thank you. I wanted to ensure that we are still keeping cordial relations in here.

phenry

Absolutely.

Cerberus

It might not hurt to add something friendly in the topic. But, honestly, I'm not convinced it is a big deal.

Mahnax

@TheodoreBroda Great idea! Perhaps raising the issue on Meta might be beneficial?

phenry

02:56

An earlier comment of mine has been removed. For posterity, let me replace it with:

@Cerberus - That one does seem a bit self-indulgent.

Theodore Broda

@Mahnax Yes, this would be very pertinent on meta.

medica

I have a gut feeling that being a mod here is a lot of work. More than any of us know.

Mahnax

@TheodoreBroda If you feel strongly about the issue, then I don't think it would hurt to post about your experiences and include your suggestion. Not everyone will scroll through this chat transcript, so summarizing your point of view in a meta post would probably be a great idea. I encourage you to do that.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus It may not be a big deal for current chat users, but I believe it would be for new users. That is why I am perplexed by the significant opposition; it is such a simple fix, just change the room topic field.

@Mahnax I'll go post my issue on EL&U meta right now.

Mahnax

@TheodoreBroda The opposition is rooted in our traditions. Nobody likes it when we get rid of the fun parts of our community, especially given the rough history our chat has had.

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