Programming Language Design and Implementation

mousetail

09:20

1 more day

Dannyu NDos

09:30

Tomorrow 0:00?

mousetail

I assume sometime in the afternoon

Dannyu NDos

Well, timezone matters.

mousetail

Someone has to manually do it, I don't think it's automated

so probably in US afternoon

Dannyu NDos

09:45

My new programming language is going to feature equality comparison on functions.

mousetail

How is it going to compare them? On source code? Will whitespace matter?

Dannyu NDos

@mousetail Mathematically; would see whether they have the same output on the same input. This is possible when the domain is compact and the codomain is discrete.

Relevant post:

1

Q: When is the compact-open topology discrete?

I tried to find a necessary-and-sufficient condition for the function space $\mathcal{C}(X,Y)$ equipped with the compact-open topology to be discrete. Here's my effort so far: Theorem 1. If $X$ is nonempty and $\mathcal{C}(X,Y)$ is discrete, then $Y$ is discrete. Proof by contrapositive: Let $y$ ...

mousetail

What if the function doesn't halt?

Dannyu NDos

Oh

NaCl

compare their addresses in memory :^)

Dannyu NDos

09:49

That's gonna be a problem D:

mousetail

I think it would be very useful if you could check equality on closures if the bind the same variables, but only if the function they wrap is literally the same

Dannyu NDos

I'm finding a sufficient condition for a function to halt anyway.

Dang it, halting problem.

NaCl

imo if you've got a normalizer going and want to have some kind of syntactic/definitional equality, I feel like fun x -> x + 1 and fun x -> 1 + x should be "equal" just as well. But, it should probably not be equal to fun x -> sleep(5000s); x + 1, at least if you care about computational cost. You may get away with all of this by considering an ultrafinitist logic and compare cost measures as well

mousetail

It's really hard to prove anything about turing machines. It's undecidable if they are equal even in discrete topology

Dannyu NDos

@NaCl sleep is an IO action, or a Karmic action as a term in my language.

And \x -> x + 1 doesn't have compact domain.

NaCl

09:54

@DannyuNDos replace the sleep with a recursive call to a function that does nothing but return () after X computational steps

Anyways, my comments are likely not helpful at all, so sorry about rambling along. I'll shut up

Dannyu NDos

No, you have a point.

Not Int -> Int, but Bool -> Int. That's equality comparable.

As functions are compared only mathematically, a no-op like sleep won't matter.

Sidenote: My language is gonna have an exotic definition of Integer.

NaCl

So the "proofs" (=programs) are irrelevant to the type they inhabit

Dannyu NDos

newtype Integer = Integer {nth_digit :: OmegaC -> Bool}

data OmegaC = Zero | Succ OmegaC

mousetail

So Integer is defined in terms of OmegaC which is also a type of integer?

Dannyu NDos

The fixpoint of OmegaC, which is fix Succ, can be fed on Integer.

That decides the signature of an Integer.

NaCl

10:01

I don't understand. Where is the sign?

Dannyu NDos

cf. two's complement

NaCl

~~Is the def like coℕ?~~ nevermind, understood the definition now

Dannyu NDos

Glad people understand topology :D

Gonna be painful to implement Schönhage-Strassen tho

Ginger

11:20

TWO DAYS

mousetail

11:32

2 hours ago, by mousetail

1 more day

Unrelated String

The Soon™️

Ginger

11:52

tick tock

mousetail

Ideally we'd post a question and answer as fast as possible, just to flex

Unrelated String

true

Henry WH Hack v3.0

12:41

For anyone who thinks 1 more day is too long I have came to say thats:

Tomorrow!

Ginger

I hear it's only a day away

mousetail

Do we want a poll for the chat room name or is "Garbage Collector" ok?

lyxal

poll

even if garbage collector wins by a landslide which it probably will, it's best to have democracy

Dannyu NDos

What are the suggested names?

mousetail

Just "Garbage Collector" I think

lyxal

12:43

that's the thing - there's no other contenders right now

mousetail

But in a poll people can suggest more options

lyxal

exactly

mousetail

There would a deadline to submit answers, then voting

lyxal

we might get a better name we never thought of

mousetail

Probably after private beta

@lyxal ^^

Dannyu NDos

12:44

I dub the name of... "C++ Killers".

mousetail

...not as catchy

Unrelated String

not catchy in the slightest

i'm sorry

Dannyu NDos

:(

Unrelated String

it is a good meme but i feel like it could also kinda devalue the site's image

mousetail

What about Z+++++++++

Or Zb#+++++

Dannyu NDos

12:45

Odd number of +s?

mousetail

Or PyZb#+++++Script 2

Dannyu NDos

I feel like "Garbage Collector" works for the general discussion, and "<language> Killers" would work for those who want to replace the <language>.

Unrelated String

hard code the room name straight into chat servers to be a different single word randomly chosen every time

ooh yeah that could honestly be a good strategy for long term spin-off rooms lmao

maybe not actually dedicated to specific languages but let one be sort of the exemplar

like you could have prolog killers for people developing new whatever-prolog-is languages :P

Dannyu NDos

Dunno, "No Coffee" for Java?

mousetail

"Stainless Steel" for Rust

"Indiana Jones" for Python

Dannyu NDos

12:51

And "Doesn't-Have-Kell" for Haskell

mousetail

"Removing the car from carpet" for Javascript

Unrelated String

YES

Dannyu NDos

I'm semi-joking, but we should consult Puzzling SE. They'll provide cryptic clues.

Unrelated String

lol

Dannyu NDos

"Another Raku" for Perl?

mousetail

12:53

"Please Hospitalize PHP" for PHP

Dannyu NDos

"Sapphire" for Ruby

mousetail

"Glasses" for C#

Unrelated String

ahaha

Dannyu NDos

^ ???

"Db" would work more likely

Unrelated String

see sharp

Dannyu NDos

12:54

Oh

Unrelated String

on that note,

@DannyuNDos "Before Swine"

mousetail

^ Love this one

Dannyu NDos

Plz explain...?

mousetail

"Pearls before swine" is a saying

Dannyu NDos

Oh, I'm not familiar with English idioms.

"Failed to be T-3½" for regex in general?

mousetail

12:56

)))))) for lisp

Dannyu NDos

Wait, that's sarcastic

Unrelated String

fun fact, it's coincidentally also been calqued into japanese
i think it's something biblical

Dannyu NDos

"Achieving Tychonoff" would work

Unrelated String

"Stop" for Go

mousetail

@UnrelatedString It does appear in the bible yes

lyxal

12:58

@DannyuNDos how about "The Pumping Room" because regex/regular languages need to satisfy the pumping lemma :p

Dannyu NDos

Good

Unrelated String

lmaoooo

yes

"Prequel" for SQL

mousetail

"Extinction" for Deno

"Edge" for Node

Dannyu NDos

"A PL" for APL?

mousetail

"Pear" for APL

Jason for BASH, and Bourne for JSON

Dannyu NDos

13:00

"Auditory Acidic" for Visual Basic

Unrelated String

@mousetail maybe "Facade" for shells in general

Dannyu NDos

"Target" for Dart

mousetail

@UnrelatedString Or Nautulus

Unrelated String

@DannyuNDos "Textual Advanced"

though i actually like yours slightly more

mousetail

Maybe "Acidic Audio" for VB

Dannyu NDos

13:02

"Itch" for Scratch

mousetail

I love that one

Unrelated String

yes

Dannyu NDos

"Err..." for R?

mousetail

"Newton" for Pascal

Unrelated String

struggling to think of a good one for julia

Dannyu NDos

13:03

"Julius" for Julia?

Unrelated String

that's one option :P

mousetail

@UnrelatedString April? Another female name that is also a month

Dannyu NDos

If there was to be 6 month difference, "Januara"?

mousetail

Strangely I know nobody named that

Dannyu NDos

And "Subjective-C" for Obj-C

mousetail

13:05

Subjective Ocean

Dannyu NDos

"D:" for D

"Vecto" for Scala

"Gb" for F#?

mousetail

"Sloth" for swift

Dannyu NDos

"Grothendieck's Curse" for Scheme?

And "Gloomy" for Groovy

"Epilog" for Prolog

mousetail

"Poison" for Elixyr

Dannyu NDos

"Freddy" for Elm?

"Crack" for Hack

mousetail

13:10

"Antivirus" for Hack

Dannyu NDos

ManualColdKey for AutoHotKey

Bigshout for Smalltalk

mousetail

Just "Shout" would probably work better

Unrelated String

or "Dispense with Pleasantries"

mousetail

Even better

Dannyu NDos

Hi @Adám , wanna share ideas for names for chatrooms for PLDI?

mousetail

13:18

28 mins ago, by Dannyu NDos

Dunno, "No Coffee" for Java?

Adám

@DannyuNDos I didn't have anything in particular in mind.

The Factory Floor?

Are PLDI questions on-topic here?

Dannyu NDos

Yeah, of course.

Adám

So, will this become the main chat room, or is it just an A51 room for hashing out details?

mousetail

No, we'll get a proper chat room I think

Don't think it's possible to move a room to a different site

Adám

Right, hence my question if PLDI questions are on topic. Seemingly, only meta-PLDI questions would be.

mousetail

13:22

We don't really have strict rules about what is on or off topic, but what is definitive is that a good amount of people with knowledge of programing language design frequent here

Tomorrow we'll get a real room though

if your question can wait until then

Adám

@mousetail How do you know?

mousetail

Actually not 100% sure but I think you can make chatrooms under beta sites too. I have no reason to think not

Adám

"the week of May 16th" doesn't necessarily include the 16th.

I understood it as "sometime during that week".

mousetail

Oh right

@Adám They do usually launch on Tuesdays

Adám

But why did they use a Tuesday to indicate a week‽ Usually, people use Sundays or Mondays.

mousetail

13:26

Time travel

Adám

I suppose we'll have [praclang] and [esolang] tags.

mousetail

I'm basing the Tuesdays thing on this message: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/140719?m=63394446#63394446 Not sure what their source is

@Adám esolang for sure, I would assume most languages there are practlangs so the tag wouldn't be that useful.

Adám

But it isn't easy to filter for not-[esolang] is it?

mousetail

The concept of a pract lang is purely from the code golf world right? In any other context you'd assume the tools you want are at least intended to be useful

Seggan

I think so

Adám

13:29

Ah, -[esolang] works.

Which spaces should a praclang support? By experimentation, I've found the following:
Only tab and space: Bash, C, D, Dart, Go, Java, Lua, OCaml, Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby, Rust, Scala, Zig
Tab, space, nbsp: Common Lisp, Erlang, Wolfram Language
All Unicode whitespace: C#, Haskell, JavaScript, Julia, PowerShell, R, Raku

Dyalog APL currently falls in the first group, but some suggest being more inclusive.

Dannyu NDos

I think only ASCII 0x20 space.

mousetail

I think python supports any character that normalizes into a space or tab

Bbrk24

Pretty sure Swift falls into the “all unicode whitespace” category? But I might be misremembering

Dannyu NDos

Even tabs are hard to parse

Bbrk24

TSPL should have the answer

Seggan

13:31

@lyxal I actually prefer “The Garbage Collector”

mousetail

@Adám For indentation, if that's important, only tab and space. For just seperating tokens any unicode spacing character except 0-width spaces

Bbrk24

> The following characters are considered whitespace: space (U+0020), line feed (U+000A), carriage return (U+000D), horizontal tab (U+0009), vertical tab (U+000B), form feed (U+000C) and null (U+0000).

So Swift considers all ASCII whitespace but not all Unicode whitespace

Dannyu NDos

Null is a whitespace there!?

Bbrk24

@DannyuNDos …kinda. You can’t include it in a string literal or a block comment

mousetail

I guess that allows you to just concatenate C-style strings and they would be seperated properly

Seggan

13:33

@DannyuNDos Sol for Lua

Bbrk24

4

A: Find an Illegal String

Swift, 4 3 bytes There's control characters in here, so I'll just give their ASCII values: 0A 22 00. Most of the ways that other C-family languages do this don't work in Swift, because Swift allows nested block comments. The null character always generates at least a warning. However, if it's i...

Adám

@mousetail It bothers me that 2+ 3 would give 5.

Rydwolf Programs

Whoa holy frick that is a full user list

Unrelated String

lol

Bbrk24

@Adám Swift doesn’t let you put space on only one side of a binary operator. You have to do both or neither

Rydwolf Programs

13:36

@mousetail *The

Bbrk24

Also, the compiler could always issue warnings for things like that

Adám

@Bbrk24 OK, but ` 10+10` giving 20 is equally startling.

Heh, Markdown…

Rydwolf Programs

But yeah I think everyone who's seen "The Garbage Collector" has liked it lol

It's really a great name

mousetail

Doing a poll for the form is just good form

If everyone likes garbage collector it will win easily

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms the anticipation is growing

Henry WH Hack v3.0

13:37

@Adám For chat it's 3 backticks.

Bbrk24

Is it? this works fine with only one

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail ...all flowers die, tapped the last good vein don't know how to shut it off

Paramore - Figure 8 (Official Audio)

►

Adám

@HenryWHHackv3.0 Uh, no: ``` 10+10```

Henry WH Hack v3.0

testing testing 123 (It works for this.)

mousetail

I guess the unicode broke it

Dannyu NDos

13:38

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

Adám

You can't begin inline code with a space.

And   is a space, which I wouldn't want as a valid space in code.

Dannyu NDos

Minus sign: −

mousetail

 10+10

Unrelated String

@RydwolfPrograms this might be the most confusing-without-what-it's-replying-to chat message i've ever seen

Dannyu NDos

U+2212 works

Unrelated String

13:40

at least for long-distance replies

Rydwolf Programs

@UnrelatedString That song's literally the only time I've ever heard that expression :p

If we had a room with that name I'd have Paramore stuck in my head for hours every time I saw it in the rooms list :p

(Figure 8 is also such a good song, best song on This Is Why for sure)

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms I think it’s a variation on a verse from the bible

Unrelated String

i've definitely heard it plenty

not, like, often often

but definitely multiple times in multiple places

Henry WH Hack v3.0

@mousetail It's in a lot of meta post. (Although sometimes it maybe on Mondays or Wednesdays, but Tuesdays are just the most common.)

I have been in many private betas before. (Well only around 30.) You well get to learn some patterns after a while.

Unrelated String

~~and only one of those places was an anachronistic pig-themed yakuza maid cafe~~

mousetail

13:47

Judge[a] not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what [b]judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Rydwolf Programs

Interesting

mousetail

The sermon on the mount is just a really good speech, I highly recomend reading it even if you are not really into christinanity

Unrelated String

i haven't read the whole thing yet but yeah there's some really good stuff in there

~~blessed are the cheesemakers~~

Seggan

^^^

mousetail

> “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Rydwolf Programs

13:53

I like how the site doesn't even exist yet and we're already several tangents deep into off-topic territory. We've truly got CGCC's DNA :p

mousetail

86.3% of the people here are from there so

Unrelated String

that'll do it :P

Henry WH Hack v3.0

This room is now for Religious Design and Implementation?

4

Rydwolf Programs

Hey guys I've designed a new religion but having trouble implementing it

bigyihsuan

@HenryWHHackv3.0 this is now world-building

mousetail

13:54

Should we have tags for practical religions vs esoteric religions?

What would a esoteric religion even look like

Unrelated String

consider designing your polytheism to not require dynamic dispatch

Dannyu NDos

Dunno, the religion I'm making?

'Cause the gods I believe in form a proper class.

Dunno what the morphisms are tho.

mousetail

All gods are just instances of a single global god class

Rydwolf Programs

1. They worship copy paper
2. The thinner and cheaper the paper, the holier
3. All their religious texts keep falling apart because the paper is really cheap
4. Putting ink on paper is considered defiling it so they only write through watermarking
5. When you die, you are resurrected by being extruded from a copier as a thin sheet and slowly inflating back into three dimensions like a mail-order mattress

mousetail

Are you still made out of copper after being resurrected though?

Rydwolf Programs

13:58

Actually inventing esoteric religions is pretty fun we need a site for this

Unrelated String

that's just worldbuilding

Rydwolf Programs

oh right

Dannyu NDos

Oh, my dear Hausdorff...

mousetail

@UnrelatedString The implementation aspect would be off topic there though, we might need a new site for that

indoctrination.stackexchange.com

Unrelated String

ah ofc

Rydwolf Programs

14:00

I was thinking about it the other day and I could legit make a totally awesome religion

All the existing ones have all that historical stuff, mine would get straight to the point

Unrelated String

remember, turing complete omnipotence can't always be statically analyzed

that was such a bad joke

i need sleep

Dannyu NDos

Biblically accurate angels.

mousetail

I feel like all recent religions are just conspiracy theory cults

Rydwolf Programs

So how do pro-tem mods work right now. Are they still appointed or do we have voting now?

Unrelated String

and just normal cults

the conspiracy theory ones are just easier to see

Dannyu NDos

14:03

Q: I'm a new polytheist. What does it mean for me to believe in a god?

Please pardon me about that I'm concealing my religious background to prevent a flame-war. Though I've never lost my faith, the faith has been changing for recent times. For now, I seem to be believing in multiple gods. Infinitely many, in fact. An apeirotheist if I were to coin a term. Who are t...

theology philosophy-of-religion faith

Seriously.

Rydwolf Programs

If y'all would support me being a mod, I'm hoping it'd be possible to make some sort of arrangement where I'd be added in four months when I turn 18

Henry WH Hack v3.0

@RydwolfPrograms elections now

Rydwolf Programs

ah

lyxal

@HenryWHHackv3.0 how far into beta do they happen?

Henry WH Hack v3.0

@lyxal At the end of the private beta. Another one is held after site graduation.

Rydwolf Programs

14:09

Oh at the end? How long is private beta?

mousetail

2 weeks right?

Henry WH Hack v3.0

@RydwolfPrograms 3 weeks more or less

Rydwolf Programs

oh okay

Henry WH Hack v3.0

The election is very important.

mousetail

I'll vote for Smokey

Henry WH Hack v3.0

14:20

I have to make this more accurate:

11 mins ago, by Henry WH Hack v3.0

@lyxal At the end of the private beta. Another one is held after site graduation.

It's held sometime after the end of the private beta.

Someone said I was too pedantic I think it's because of things like that.^

Rydwolf Programs

Can it be approx. 3.5 months after the end of private beta? :p

Henry WH Hack v3.0

@RydwolfPrograms NOOO! It's too much for my pedantic mind!

Adám

14:45

Should I run for mod?

mousetail

Yes

Adám

PLD is literally in my title at work.

mousetail

Yea you are literally the most qualified for the job

I also appreciate getting a adult instead of a teenager

Adám

Im just a teenager that aged.

Ginger

aren't we all

Adám

14:47

Not the teens.

Ginger

darn, you got me there

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Well not necessarily most, over a third of our users are academics or professionals in the field

Adám

@mousetail Doing the site subject professionally doesn't make me a good community handler.

Rydwolf Programs

^

mousetail

Well your job for APL is in part community manager

Adám

14:48

true

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail FWIW teenagers proposed and advertised this site and turned it into a community

mousetail

That's the type of job teenagers are good at yes

Speaking as a slightly older teenager myself

Rydwolf Programs

And they're not good at modding chat rooms?

mousetail

Disagree with that one

Rydwolf Programs

Disagree as in they are good or aren't good at modding

mousetail

14:50

You'd be a good mod but having Adam on the team too would be better for sanity I think

Ginger

I leave for an hour and yall invent a new religion smh my head

lyxal

It'll be interesting to see how many people not from here nominate

mousetail

I think it would greatly benefit us to have one mod not from CGSE

Rydwolf Programs

Why's that?

lyxal

Because right now it looks like there'll be 2 mod noms from cg

mousetail

14:54

To make it it's own community

And not just a extension

Rydwolf Programs

I don't think who our mods are is really going to affect that :p

Adám

committers active in
44.7% Stack Overflow
20.8% Code Golf
19.5% Meta Stack Exchange
19.0% Mathematics
13.3% Super User
12.4% Code Review

Rydwolf Programs

Whether it's a CGCC user or not who handles comment flags doesn't really make much of a difference

lyxal

^

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms Mods have a great deal of influence especially when the community is new

Ginger

14:55

^^

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Only coincidentally

Since they also tend to be the most influential users already

Ginger

@mousetail what's your source for this?

also ^^

mousetail

Just seeing mods. When they participate in meta it's viewed with a lot more weight

Ginger

ah

Rydwolf Programs

Well, for moderation-specific things they get more weight yeah, but that's not really what defines a community right :p

lyxal

14:56

@mousetail it shouldn't be like that

Rydwolf Programs

Ooh nice my AP test is two days later than I thought

mousetail

@lyxal It is though unfortunatly

Rydwolf Programs

So I get extra PLDI time :p

lyxal

@mousetail people are still free to rebel against the mods

mousetail

People only generally do that for gross misconduct, not because they mildly disagree

Rydwolf Programs

14:57

No

People downvote mods' answers and upvote non-mods' answers all the time :p

lyxal

@mousetail I mildly disagreed with not letting code golf meta allow pldi ads despite the mods saying no

Rydwolf Programs

Mods might be more likely for their meta answers to be upvoted, but that doesn't mean they don't get their propositions struck down from time to time

lyxal

^

mousetail

For sure

lyxal

The most influence from a mod is community guidelines, not culture

mousetail

14:59

But often there are many answers on meta saying mostly the same thing and the mod one gets to choose all the specifics

Rydwolf Programs

A non-mod can still post an answer with specifics

lyxal

^

mousetail

They won't get as many votes

Transcript for

Programming Language Design and Imple…