Programming Language Design and Implementation

RO request?

3:29 PM

I was worried we wouldn't have enough material but it looks like we definitely will

this is going much better than I anticipated :p

Radvylf Programs has added Ginger to the list of this room's owners.

If anyone else wants to be an RO lmk

we've gotten 7 new followers since I left

Anyone here on Hacker News? Have we posted this on r/programmers yet?

3:30 PM

reddit yes

hackernews idk

Should the topic of the site be just programing languages or all formal languages? Like HTML-like markup languages or languages like regex that are not turing complete.

Regex should definitely be on-topic

TCness isn't a requirement, otherwise C would be off-topic :p

@RadvylfPrograms what kind of qs tho

@RadvylfPrograms me

I'd lean toward yes for HTML, but I could see that being something that needs discussion

make all The Five™ ROs

3:32 PM

Radvylf Programs has added Seggan to the list of this room's owners.

@Ginger I don't think so

@Seggan so that's radvylf, lyxal, me, you, and mousetail?

ok make that six

emanresu too

@RadvylfPrograms that thing is ded

newest post was 3 years ago

Hacker news or r/programmers?

Oh wait it's r/programming isn't it

3:37 PM

@mousetail reddit

I just posted over on r/programminglanguages, which seems to have the exact same scope as our proposed site: reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/yymyt5/…

I think lyxal already posted there

Oh wait really

reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/yykkef/…

Oops, frick

3:39 PM

i agree with one of the comments, we do need to narrow the questions focus a bit

although against the commenters, software engineering.se frequently has those types of broad questions

can someone with a reddit acc reply that ^

Early in the site questions can be broader, as a site ages people get tired of them and require more specific questions

Went ahead and deleted mine

@Seggan Already did, independently :p

> Stack Overflow is the problem child of the family. If you look at sites like Software Engineering, Code Review, 3D Printing, and most of the small ones, questions don't require nearly as much exact precision as SO does. Currently there are a lot of sample questions proposed that are pretty bad, but it won't be hard to rework those a bit into something more objective.

reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/yykkef/comment/…

@RadvylfPrograms ty

i dont see it?

nvm

3:47 PM

name suggestion for the main chatroom: "The Garbage Collector"

7

~~which may end up being quite accurate, depending on who's in it~~

the problem is that although we have a bunch of sample questions we don't have enough votes on them

the requirement is 40 questions with at least 10 score

which means that we need at least 80 people(!) to use their full allotment of votes

We now have 40 total questions

so only voting no new questions

~~good luck enforcing that~~

some of the qs are bad

True

We may need a few more but still the focus should be on voting existing ones

if they're really bad you can always VTC them

3:52 PM

Bad questions are good

We want to be able to figure out where the line is

and 2 + 2 = 5

@RadvylfPrograms true

The stage we're in is, after all, called "definition"

fair enough

what on earth is an "enumerated union"

3:53 PM

Sounds like a C union sort of?

Oh wait, I think that's what you call a Rust-style enum-with-associated-data

I think it's a union with one field that stores what variant the union is?

That's what I was going to guess then I realized it's basically a weaker form of Rust enums

Yea union structs in C are basically weak rust enums

argh i wish i had more upvotes

Don't we all :p

3:58 PM

We have overtaken cryptocurrency

lets goo

Coding > Crypto(currency)

2

Always has been

@Ginger Hey, better clarify which crypto you mean

all

4:02 PM

Crypto will never mean cryptocurrency and I will fight anyone who disagrees

that was a close one :p

so ~~once~~ if we get into private beta we need to stay active or else SE will 11 the site

I shall single handedly keep the site alive

Since I'm using the other hand for CGCC

I was about to ask d:

~~well if you happen to be Zaphod Beeblebrox you can use two hands for Langdev and still have one left for CGCC~~

If I had 3 hands I'd use them to type faster rather than type in multiple places at the same time

> If a site reaches critical mass, it moves into the public beta period

> critical mass

is the site going to become a black hole or smth

4:09 PM

That's the idea right? People enter but can never leave until spagetified at the end of the universe

then get emited as hawking radiation

there is no escape, only ~~golf~~ language design

@mousetail Did you mean: "spaghettified"?

i cend splle

> Who did the artwork?
> All illustrations on Area 51 are the work of Terry Colon. Site layout and visual design is by Jin Yang.

so that's whose fault it is

we're almost halfway to the follower requirement!

The design isn't the problem. They could fix everything and still keep the beautiful illustations

lmao there's a Moderators.SE

so that's where the Discord mods come from!

4:12 PM

@Ginger Most active: Monica :(

F

if we make it to "commit" I hereby swear to make a logo for the site q:

Doesn't se supply a logo?

maybe?

I'm not sure

~~also maybe we can lobby for a chat easter egg~~

None of the logos seem " hand drawn"

They seem professionally designed

but a bunch of the small sites don't actually have logos

and I do not want Langdev.SE to be one of them

4:16 PM

Oh right, you don't even get a logo till you graduate

We're not like other sites!

Good luck with that

"To use this site, you must install this userscript to make the logo appear different, posts by people without this script will be automatically deleted"

I said evil not insane

@Ginger never knew?

@mousetail ive always wondered, does the time dilation mean you never actually enter a black hole and just hover at the event horizon until it evaporates? :P

A very good questions that I've wondered about a lot too. I don't know

Time stands still effectively past the event horizon, so you'll stay there forever, but the back hole itself evaporates, and will eventually disappear. So how tf does that work?

Will you forever stay trapped in a black hole that has since ceased to exist?

4:25 PM

i think thats called the information paradox

@mousetail not even past the event horizon, at the event horizon, since the escape velocity at the event horizon = c

would the black hole shrink you out of it?

VTC as off-topic: you may be able to find better info on ~~Google~~ Physics.SE

yeah i think i have an astrononmy acc

yea i do but i think thisd belong on space

nvm

Ginger has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

now we'll get notified of new question ideas

wait thats a feed

4:33 PM

apparently

should I add the rest of The Six™ as ROs?

not unless they ask

also, is it really 6? the follow list shows Radvylf, Lyxal, and me as the first 3 and then some random users

yeah but the ones in the original discussion

by that measure it's just 5: radvylf, lyxal, me, emanresu, and you

ik thats why i said 5 at first

but apparently mousetail?

4:38 PM

oh :p

it's 5, sorry mousetail

1 hour ago, by Ginger

@Seggan so that's radvylf, lyxal, me, you, and mousetail?

wide finger

also we've hit the 50% followers mark!

woo!

tbh i dont think well have a hard time keeping it afloat

just need an influx of questions

time will tell

i mean, were all relatively experienced in creating langs, so answering wont really be a problem

4:42 PM

~~maybe we should move LDW over once the site hits beta~~

Q: Does matter accumulate just outside the event horizon of a black hole?

lol

49

My understanding is that time slows and approaches stopping when approaching the event horizon of a black hole. I have seen this explained several places, including a brief explanation in the last paragraph under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#General_relativity, quoted below: Oppe...

14

Q: Would time go by infinitely fast when crossing the event horizon of a black hole?

If you were to fall into a black hole, my understanding is that from your reference point, time would speed up (looking out to the rest of the universe), approaching infinity when approaching the event horizon. If this is correct, would you see the whole universe's future "life" flash before you...

black-hole gravity space-time special-relativity horizon

I'd be happy to be RO if you think it's nececairy

@RadvylfPrograms I disagree

The overwhelming majority of people mean cryptocurrency when they say "crypto", so that's what crypto means, whether any of us like it or not (fwiw I would prefer if people meant cryptography too)

Also, just wanted to say this was a great idea, no idea why it wasn't made sooner

nobody bothered

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Why should I use bnf over a custom parser?

posted on November 18, 2022 by mousetail

Question by mousetail for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: How would you design a compiler upfront to be both a compiler and a …

posted on November 18, 2022 by gavinhoward

Question by gavinhoward for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Is an enumerated union a good language design choice?

posted on November 18, 2022 by fess

Question by fess for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Are macros as a language design choice worth it or do they complicat…

posted on November 18, 2022 by fess

Question by fess for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: What is a generational garbage collector and what are it's benefits?

posted on November 18, 2022 by mousetail

Question by mousetail for Programming Language Design

4:54 PM

...

@user LDW was kinda its predecessor

Programming Languages and Language Design

oh no

Guess what I just found?

in The Nineteenth Byte, Jan 20, 2017 at 14:48, by Business Cat

7

Proposed Q&A site for programmers interested in the design of practical, esoteric, and golfing programming language, as well as those who understand and use esolangs.

Closed before being launched.

^ This has been done before

wtf

and that site? got closed

Oh it's an old one

I thought this one got deleted

me too lol

@Ginger it was bc of insufficient activity

4:55 PM

alright

It seems like there's plenty of activity now

Especially with lyxal to do the marketing :P

i think its because it never hit the 5 follower mark

except:

in The Nineteenth Byte, Apr 29, 2017 at 17:14, by Phoenix

Well, the area 51 proposal for Language Design got closed as a dupe of an existing site.

...that's dumb

Which site?

4:56 PM

Software Engineering is not the best place for specific questions about language design

in The Nineteenth Byte, Apr 29, 2017 at 17:14, by Phoenix

And I'm reasonably certain it's software engineering

^^

I just want to answer the first question in a site

my only goal in life

and i wanna post that question :P

The ultimate first

I wanna be the first user

4

@Seggan Please post a question I actually know the answer to

4:58 PM

like?

How to hide from a cat

area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/…

If it's highly opinionated I can bullshit something, but if it's something like this area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/… no way

Aww, I want to upvote a bunch of these questions but I have only 5

ikr

someone followed 30 secs ago

well I was the 3rd to follow so if followers turn into accounts then I will be the 3rd user

hey we're at 32

nice round number :b

5:03 PM

Lots of unregistered users following, but they can't vote so it's going to make the vote target harder to reach

hey, we got a better follow time now: 33 mins 45 secs on average between followers

Some of these questions seem really opinionated

^ most

Could be better if framed as "advantages and disadvantages of ..." but that's still somewhat opinionated

yeah what should i do abt this

5:07 PM

This question is similar but asks about a specific feature: "How can I compile a register machine-based IR to WASM?"

Maybe you could do something similar and ask about something more specific

hmm ya think "how is jvm bytecode structured" is good

also according to my calculations we will reach the 60 followers needed in 16 hours

Timezones will probably reduce activity over time

there is a graph in the proposal page that shows that

here is mine:

desmos.com/calculator/jdo94fkkrw

5:41 PM

that estimate is now 13 hours

based off of the graph I have concluded that most of our followers are in the US

moderators.se has been in beta for 7 years

wow

whoah

Lyxal should seriously consider a marketing or business career

We just got a fourth +10 :D

Just 36 more to go

6:03 PM

Would it be in bad taste to only upvote questions that already have a lot of upvotes (and not upvote any questions with 10 upvotes) to get to the milestone quicker?

I've actively removed my votes from questions over 10, so if it's bad taste so am I

However, we may need to coordinate to get one of the more specific questions to the top

And maybe to get some of the not-so-great questions down

Might want to have a list of questions to upvote or something somewhere (Google Sheet? Github Gist?)

Good idea

Chat sidebar :) ?

Stars would be a bit hard to work with

Or do you mean linked in the room description?

I was thinking the room description yes

6:07 PM

Ah ok that's a good idea

Good specific questions so far include:
* https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/programming-language-design/127473#127473
* https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/programming-language-design/127483#127483
* https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/programming-language-design/127478#127478
* https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/programming-language-design/127496#127496
* https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/programming-language-design/127476#127476

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: How do you check whether an inferred type matches a type signature?

posted on November 18, 2022 by Jon Purdy

Question by Jon Purdy for Programming Language Design

Oh this one is really good too: https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/127456/programming-language-design/127487#127487

This would be a good candidate for the top question

@Feeds this ones nice

whats a ufc

@user nope :p

6:22 PM

@Seggan If you're asking about the extension methods vs UFCS question, UFCS = Uniform Function Call Syntax. It's a feature D and Nim have that basically makes foo.bar(baz) equivalent to bar(foo, baz)

ah like Rol

It makes overloading a little harder but it also feels less messy and brittle than extension methods

(not that I've used either extension methods or UFCS much)

tbh i could prob answer half of these right now :P

@Seggan How's that working out? Are you able to have methods with the same name on different types?

yep

6:24 PM

Nice

the compiler sees no difference, the method is transformed at parse time

I'm considering UFCS for a language of my own but I like classes being their own namespaces

tho when i add function types i will need to rework that

since you could be calling a function thats a field on a struct

Are there any conflicts if you're using generics?

Put good questions to vote on here!

6:28 PM

Need to make an account :(*

do you?

I don't have one and I'm editing just fine

Oh I can

Just need to switch to markdown mode

@user still havent implemented that yet, but i dont see why it would conflict

True, I can't see any reasons either, just wondering if that brought any problems because generics is typically somewhat problematic

You've convinced me to use UFCS for my language too (not that I'll ever finish it) :P

6:34 PM

Btw someone can remove a vote from python style indentation, it's got 11

I did

Now the top 2 both have 11

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Which resources are available for implementing a strong type system?

posted on November 18, 2022 by themisir

Question by themisir for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: What's different about designing a shell language (e.g., Bash, Power…

posted on November 18, 2022 by BoppreH

Question by BoppreH for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Is there any agreed upon syntax for dependent types (e.g., integer r…

posted on November 18, 2022 by BoppreH

Question by BoppreH for Programming Language Design

thanks feeds

Feeds MVP

6:37 PM

Does this feel a little vague to you guys?

I ninja'd you to that one

it's on the bad list

Oh ok

Yea I think it could be rephrased a bit to be interesting though

This doesn't look like mathematics chat.

uh, it's not???

6:40 PM

Right. Pardon my intrusion.

it's fine

But if you're looking for a cool Area 51 site to follow, you're in the right place!

:p

@user Follow our [[Affiliate Link]] in the [[Information]]!

@Goku Mwahaha, we won't release you unless you upvote some of our questions :P

@user would love to if I had joined the site, here's a little secret I have used some helpful answers from this site anonymously xD

6:43 PM

Helpful answers on Area 51? :o

Yes. Even found some aliens too.

@Goku What did they look like?

@mousetail nice try FBI, but I'm not snitching

Haha fooled you, I'm with the MI8

Isn't that Mi5? How many Mi(insert number) are there?

6:48 PM

MI8 is secret, you wouldn't know about it

There's a difference between people not hearing about something because it's a well-guarded secret and people not hearing about something because it's irrelevant and no one cares about it :P

@mousetail is it really a secret now that you've told me though?

Anyway, have fun hunting aliens, y'all o/

@Goku I can tell you don't believe me, so the secret isn't really leaked

Genius

6:51 PM

wow

almost at 40!

@user yeah

@user ure welcome :P

@mousetail done

now i have 2 more to waste

@mousetail I do now though

You leaked it. See you in court!

Maybe that was my plan all along

The 8th rule of MI8 is to follow the 8th rule of MI8

Hope you've got lots of life savinga because heh, you're going to need em

ya think the bytecode one can be improved?

how?

6:59 PM

eyyyy we broke 40!

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Why does Rust have different error types for libraries and applicati…

posted on November 18, 2022 by BoppreH

Question by BoppreH for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: Should my language have a type for single characters?

posted on November 18, 2022 by BoppreH

Question by BoppreH for Programming Language Design

can we please get back on topic?

@Seggan If you want on-topic discussion say something on-topic that's conversation startery :p

i did... twice

→ 9 messages moved to Off-Topic TNB

7:04 PM

How about the fact that we now have two pages of questions

kachow, get moved

@Feeds this ones good

Should this go to off topic area 51 instead?

maybe could be rephrased a bit

→ 2 messages moved to Off-Topic TNB

forgot a few :p

7:07 PM

42!

nice

on track to get 60 followers in 10 hours

it's alllll coming together

exactly 30 mins on average between follows

Follows gonna be easy but votes gonna be tricky

Still we're on track to set a record

7:10 PM

@mousetail yeah vfx still has 32 left

speaking of which, i should follow that one

We're already about equal with them in terms of questions

They have 4 6 pointers but after that it's all low numbers

if some random blockchain that i never heard of can get its own beta, then we will

(solana)

has anyone posted this on HN yet?

wait is that not how it works

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: What are the advantages of a visitor pattern when traversing my AST?

7:52 PM

posted on November 18, 2022 by bigyihsuan

Question by bigyihsuan for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: How can I parse this recursively-nestable expression into my AST?

8:17 PM

posted on November 18, 2022 by bigyihsuan

Question by bigyihsuan for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: How much can syntactic sugar in my language increase the difficulty …

posted on November 18, 2022 by bigyihsuan

Question by bigyihsuan for Programming Language Design

Programming Language Design - Area 51 - Stack E…: Programming Language Design: What are some possible characters for additional brackets beyond `()…

posted on November 18, 2022 by bigyihsuan

Question by bigyihsuan for Programming Language Design

One thing to consider is that our site's scope would include several sub-topics which are already on-topic on other sites, most notably, compiler design

you think we should rule compiler design out?

that is my vision for this site

Would we become the main site for compiler design, would those be moved to SE/CS, or would they be accepted on both?

Depends which part of compiler design, I guess

I think any of those would be acceptable outcomes. There's definitely overlapping sub-topics for many existing sites, like Gamedev

8:23 PM

The more theoretical type inference algorithm stuff would be CS

Specifics would be us

I think Game Development is actually one of our proposal's closest analogues

I don't think compiler design is that on-topic on Software Engineering

An equal mix of conceptual questions about the design of something, and the actual implementation in code

@user That's true, yeah

How does Game Dev work then?

I mention compiler design because it's actually explicitly referenced in a 12 year old blog post about deciding whether an Area 51 proposal should be merged: stackoverflow.blog/2010/09/17/merging-season

8:25 PM

Does it move some questions over to CS or CS to Game Dev?

Not sure, and I gotta go take a bio test so see y'all soon o/

Oh interesting, wonder what happened with that

o/

@RadvylfPrograms i think we would be "how to implement compilers", and CS is "how does this fancy type inference mathy stuff work"