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9:00 PM
no it won't but I want to flag it
Like, I only speak for myself and no one else when I say this, but getting someone to that point where they're just straight-out admitting that they're being bigoted is kind of a rush.
Like, you spend almost half an hour trying to needle in on their arguments, and they keep falling back on their deflections and obfuscations, but then something cracks and they just can't stop themselves from outright admitting their actual position.
it's been flagged. It's somewhat subtle but it's there
FYI: don't be like me. What I did was transparently bad for my mental health, and bad for the mental health of a lot of other people.
I just don't understand
9:04 PM
I had problems with that user a couple days ago.
Like I get that it actually isn't always easy to get pronouns right , I mess up myself at that
@trogdor what do you understand
But why not try?
What is so bad about trying?
@Gwideon Why people refuse to try
9:06 PM
i don't know
I do not expect you to
@trogdor And as I've said before: if a person is trying to get it right, I'm prepared to forgive them for the little mistakes along the way getting to that point.
Especially speaking as someone who has made those mistakes a bunch of times, when I was a much more ignorant teenager.
they don't want to change. they feel like we're not worth changing for.
I mean
I spent around half my life not even knowing there were actually more than 2 genders as it were
I have literal first hand experience being steeped in the unnoticed propaganda that there is a gender binary and no one exists outside of it
But like
That doesn't mean don't try to crawl out of that pit you know?
Because that's what it is, you lie inside a pit misgendering people, and when people say "hey crawl out of that pit" your response is "heck no you can't tell me what to do"?
That's the way I see it anyway
@trogdor Yep, yep yep.
And the thing is: I totally get it. That's the natural state of a lot of our taught upbringing, and it takes effort to undo that kind of cultural programming.
And I don't want to put in the effort.
I want to be lazy.
9:13 PM
But if I'm trying to engage with other people, be respectful, and understand the perspectives of other people, I have to be willing to put in that effort.
Like, I'm not saying it isn't work
But I was brought up to accommodate people
(also I think I had a natural inclination to as well)
So when I finally learned what was going on I climbed out of the pit
I probably fell down several times (or possibly more)
And I probably will fall in there occasionally still
But I climb out again because I don't want to be in that pit
Or drag other people in there
That last thing especially is what scares me
Because lying in the pit and yelling at people is like dragging them in there with you
@trogdor Speaking as someone who was raised in a semi-religious environment (my parents weren't super religious, but a lot of neighbors/friends' parents were), I'm kind of used to people being really mean while acting like and arguing like they're actually being really nice.
Yeah I got a taste of that from highschool
I went to a super religious high school because it was small
My parents were not religious and had some misgivings about me going there
There's a kind of affectation you learn, where "politeness" is treated as proxy for "kindness", so you can tell someone that you oppose literally everything about how they identify or who they are, but because you're using a gentle tone and framing it around trying to "help" them they create the aesthetic that they're the saint trying to save a sinner.
9:19 PM
But they sent me Because I wanted a small place close to where I lived
But yeah the long and short of it is,I think I get to some degree what exactly you are talking about
It's all pretty sinister, but also really fascinating once you have enough distance that you can think about it in a more abstract manner.
It's definitely different but I mean the whole "act like you are being nice while actually being mean" thing
@Xirema Yep, basically I experienced pretty much that exact behavior in that school XD
I did have my home to go back to at the end of the day though
I imagine it's quite a thing to be literally raised in that kind of environment
@trogdor I mean, you get good at recognizing it. And I had my home to retreat to as well. My mom is.... profoundly ignorant, but she tries really hard not to be, and she's getting better.
Fair enough
My parents taught me to respect people in,... Ways they don't always manage themselves
It's a little weird XD
@trogdor I think that's one of the indications of a truly successful parent.
9:29 PM
@BESW I think I even remember a conversation or two with you about that
@Xirema And this, I think, is connected to the unsettlingly common "I would have helped/supported/respected you if you didn't keep insisting on being helped/supported/respected."
I’m sad
That mentality’s like this are common
Why is it alright to tell a trans or non-binary person to deal with the equivalent of racism
@Gwideon It isn't
Just to be clear
Just because some people act like it is doesn't make it true in the least
@Gwideon Because a lot of people aren't personally affected by it, and when you're not personally affected by something, it's easy to be dismissive about it.
Or, I guess I should technically rephrase that.
They are affected by it, but not in a negative sense.
@Xirema I mean, I wouldn't quite say that
They aren't negatively effected by it in a way that they can easily notice themselves
They are teaching and reinforcing themselves to treat people without respect
And personally I believe that is bad for them
9:37 PM
@Xirema Do you recall the 80's and the D&D satanism scare? Some people were very serious about that.
It just isn't as noticeably bad for them as it is for the people they refused to respect
I’m really scared
@trogdor I mean, it is, but bigotry often is beneficial to the person being bigoted: it allows them to maintain their in-group status and privilege, or the social or political power they might have, especially if those things are unjustly earned. The only clear-cut way it's bad for them is in a kind of "bad for their soul" sense, which... I mean yeah, but it's not always helpful to place primacy on that observation.
@Xirema It is way too early in the morning for my brain; I just read "bigoted" as a transitive verb in your first sentence there.
Um that only pro person is um really getting to me
9:46 PM
@Gwideon Maybe don't engage them?
@Gwideon Yeah, like I said, don't try to engage like I do. I get a visceral thrill out of messing with these people; but it seems like it's actually hurtful for you.
@Gwideon I can't say "don't be scared," but I can say "you're not alone and here's an adorable picture."
Don't do things that cause harm to yourself, and there's no shame in acknowledging that something is harming you.
You don't have to do the discourse. (CW: understandably intense language)
@Gwideon That guy is seriously a toxic person, trying to engage with them is a waste of your time, which is valuable and much better spent for yourself.
9:52 PM
Help please. Sorry
I’m n-not sure what to do
@Gwideon Go play that game I just linked. It is an infinitely more valuable use of your time than trying to engage these *******s.
God I shouldn’t have posted I shouldn’t have posted
(Also, it's actually just kind of a good game. It starts out like a mindless clicker but eventually transcends its own genre. It's good, go play it)
9:54 PM
Um i’m Sorry i’m Kinda having an anxiety attack
Disengage from the bad internet people. They won't follow you. Go do something that you find enjoyable or calming.
@Gwideon Breathe in to a count of four, hold it for a count of four, breathe out to a count of four. List little things that you know are real and true.
Count things around you, if nothing else comes to mind: the counting is true.
@Gwideon I'm going to link this, because frankly, it's fascinating.
Seriously, Math and History made fun.
(with a little bit of mythologizing, because honestly, it's very difficult to verify whether the story told in that video is completely, 100% true)
9:59 PM
have a relaxeding duck ;) i.imgur.com/woL1nNn.gif
Thank you
Um um I need to take a complete break from meta. This isn’t good
yeah, it's not very healthy
Yeah, I've sworn off meta for the foreseeable future. There are people who can do that, I'm not one of them.
10:18 PM
I’m sorry
@Gwideon You're done literally the least wrong of anyone here.
@Gwideon Frankly, I should be apologizing: me wading into the muck like that indirectly caused you to get hurt.
And I'm sorry about that.
It’s um okay
@Gwideon I'm not sure, but would closing your question be something that would help? If so, I might be able to ask the MSE mods and see if they will do that.
Yes it would probably be best if it was to be closed
What needed to be said has been said
Ok. I'll make inquiries.
10:21 PM
@Xirema Don't blame yourself either. Based on the comments it seems that a particularly nasty user decided to show up and initiate some personal attacks.
It's not my area so I can't promise anything, but it seems fairly reasonable.
@MikeQ Yeah, but I don't need to directly engage like that. I wasn't the one who stung anyone, but kicking down that hornets nest was probably less responsible than just calling Animal Control, you know?
@Xirema There is no Animal Control. Not when users can create puppet accounts to bully others.
@MikeQ \shrug
I'm trying to adopt a personal policy of "don't try to persuade individuals in public."
10:30 PM
I’m not sure what to do. I shouldn’t have posted
@Gwideon Disengage from it basically
No amount of persuasion is going to work on that person
So just leave them in thier little pit
It isn't your job to drag them out of it and hurt yourself In the process
Especially when they just want to wallow in the mud and drag you in with them
@Gwideon how about a person dissociation? No more engagement or pings about this and your name is stripped from the post. I think it will work even better than closing the post from the perspective of your involvement.
Does that sound good to you?
That will work
10:47 PM
That actually sounds like a good idea
@Gwideon It should be done. :)
It's something that needed to be said but you don't need to be attacked for it
Yes, I'm glad the things you said got said. Thank you for that. And I'm glad there's a way you can get distance from it, too.
I personally, think that the things you said were wonderful and needed. It also took a ton of bravery to post it. I respect you immensely for it and I think everyone is better for it having been posted.
10:50 PM
Thanks um i’m Sorry if I caused drama or anything
@Gwideon You didn't and you have no reason to apologize at all.
it's cool, don't worry
Take a well-earned mental break. And take care of yourself. Let us know if we can do anything else to help.
here is Clint Eastwood holding an armadillo.
10:54 PM
That’s actually kinda cute
I really wanna know what it feels like to hold an armadillo.
I think they're kind of leathery?
Yeah, like a firm basketball with some fuzz on it
Oh, that's not really what I thought it would be like at all.
11:01 PM
@MikeQ I found this picture of an armadillo on Flickr.
@BESW Hmm. That armadillo may need to see a vet.
@BESW settle down diogenes
I’m really tired
That's very valid.
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