Like, I only speak for myself and no one else when I say this, but getting someone to that point where they're just straight-out admitting that they're being bigoted is kind of a rush.
Like, you spend almost half an hour trying to needle in on their arguments, and they keep falling back on their deflections and obfuscations, but then something cracks and they just can't stop themselves from outright admitting their actual position.
@trogdor And as I've said before: if a person is trying to get it right, I'm prepared to forgive them for the little mistakes along the way getting to that point.
Especially speaking as someone who has made those mistakes a bunch of times, when I was a much more ignorant teenager.
I spent around half my life not even knowing there were actually more than 2 genders as it were
I have literal first hand experience being steeped in the unnoticed propaganda that there is a gender binary and no one exists outside of it
But like
That doesn't mean don't try to crawl out of that pit you know?
Because that's what it is, you lie inside a pit misgendering people, and when people say "hey crawl out of that pit" your response is "heck no you can't tell me what to do"?
And the thing is: I totally get it. That's the natural state of a lot of our taught upbringing, and it takes effort to undo that kind of cultural programming.
But if I'm trying to engage with other people, be respectful, and understand the perspectives of other people, I have to be willing to put in that effort.
@trogdor Speaking as someone who was raised in a semi-religious environment (my parents weren't super religious, but a lot of neighbors/friends' parents were), I'm kind of used to people being really mean while acting like and arguing like they're actually being really nice.
There's a kind of affectation you learn, where "politeness" is treated as proxy for "kindness", so you can tell someone that you oppose literally everything about how they identify or who they are, but because you're using a gentle tone and framing it around trying to "help" them they create the aesthetic that they're the saint trying to save a sinner.
@trogdor I mean, you get good at recognizing it. And I had my home to retreat to as well. My mom is.... profoundly ignorant, but she tries really hard not to be, and she's getting better.
@Xirema And this, I think, is connected to the unsettlingly common "I would have helped/supported/respected you if you didn't keep insisting on being helped/supported/respected."
@Gwideon Because a lot of people aren't personally affected by it, and when you're not personally affected by something, it's easy to be dismissive about it.
Or, I guess I should technically rephrase that.
They are affected by it, but not in a negative sense.
@trogdor I mean, it is, but bigotry often is beneficial to the person being bigoted: it allows them to maintain their in-group status and privilege, or the social or political power they might have, especially if those things are unjustly earned. The only clear-cut way it's bad for them is in a kind of "bad for their soul" sense, which... I mean yeah, but it's not always helpful to place primacy on that observation.
@Gwideon Yeah, like I said, don't try to engage like I do. I get a visceral thrill out of messing with these people; but it seems like it's actually hurtful for you.
@Gwideon That guy is seriously a toxic person, trying to engage with them is a waste of your time, which is valuable and much better spent for yourself.
@Gwideon Breathe in to a count of four, hold it for a count of four, breathe out to a count of four. List little things that you know are real and true.
@Gwideon I'm not sure, but would closing your question be something that would help? If so, I might be able to ask the MSE mods and see if they will do that.
@Xirema Don't blame yourself either. Based on the comments it seems that a particularly nasty user decided to show up and initiate some personal attacks.
@MikeQ Yeah, but I don't need to directly engage like that. I wasn't the one who stung anyone, but kicking down that hornets nest was probably less responsible than just calling Animal Control, you know?
@Gwideon how about a person dissociation? No more engagement or pings about this and your name is stripped from the post. I think it will work even better than closing the post from the perspective of your involvement.
I personally, think that the things you said were wonderful and needed. It also took a ton of bravery to post it. I respect you immensely for it and I think everyone is better for it having been posted.
