The Hangar

Bret Copeland

00:08

@ymb1 yeah, this week's been a bit of a fire drill. I haven't gotten to anything I planned. Honestly, you might consider bringing it up on meta.SE. Someone from Q&A will see it there, and I won't have to be an unreliable middleman. Be really specific about the steps that you know (or think) happened. Be clear that you're aware of the intended behavior documented in that meta post I linked to.

ymb1

@BretCopeland rogah :)

Brenda Seitz

01:23

party ark, what year and what's the name of that plane canopy above....it looks just like the one in the creek.

Shalvenay

03:03

@BrendaSeitz -- that'd be off a B-47 Stratojet but late 40s (47 onward) into the 50s

Shalvenay

03:26

@KorvinStarmast -- you about? got some FLIP questions for ya

ymb1

04:17

@Shalvenay for you youtube.com/user/gulgenalp/videos

Shalvenay

@ymb1 interesting stuff

ymb1

@Shalvenay i skimmed thru the elec failure video, doesn't seem it was total failure, i.e., RAT was operative I believe

personally I don't think they're thoroughly trained for that scenario

XL Airways Germany Flight 888T

XL Airways Germany Flight 888T (GXL888T) was an Airbus A320 which crashed into the Mediterranean Sea, 7 km off Canet-en-Roussillon on the French coast, close to the Spanish border, on 27 November 2008. The aircraft was on a flight test (or "acceptance flight") for which it had taken off from Perpignan - Rivesaltes Airport, made an overflight of Gaillac and was flying back to Perpignan Airport, doing an approach over the sea. The flight took place immediately following light maintenance and repainting to Air New Zealand livery on the aircraft; done in preparation for its transfer from XL Airways...

notable example

Shalvenay

@ymb1 yeah, RAT and batteries -- the main hazard with total electrical failure actually is spatial-D in IMC though -- standby gyro internal power is quite limited.

ymb1

not noticing that direct-law requires manual trim via the trim wheels

Shalvenay

yeah

ymb1

04:23

@Shalvenay i don't think one can fault the plane's reliance on FBW though

she's very well built and designed

Shalvenay

indeed -- both the Airbus and Boeing core FBW designs have shown to be extremely good performers in-service

ymb1

some even point-out the non-moving throttle, but in boeings that didn't help in that asiana 777 in KSFO and that turkish 737 in EHAM

i have 737 pilot friend who changed airlines and was to train on the A330, he hated it and moved back to the 737, I don't find it sound judgment, but their operation and training is vastly different indeed

despite being a solid question, I think it'll be too broad

as training varies from airline to airline

@Shalvenay i'll ask around for you though

Shalvenay

@ymb1 thx

ymb1

@Shalvenay airline pilots do have horror stories of how things are run

@Shalvenay i do believe automation and multi-crew helps greatly

there's a NASA study for a future single pilot airliner

that would be scary

aviationweek.com/technology/…

ground pilot's station :D

i want one of those =D

@Shalvenay probably they'll recruit through VATSIM in the future :D

on a related subject, I also think one can't blame automation, older generation pilots, even those with mil background, got themselves in nasty situations when there was nothing wrong with the plane, not to mention the old school military style CRM--or lack thereof

Shalvenay

04:40

@ymb1 yeah, I wonder how CRM is employed by modern military flight training

ymb1

@Shalvenay one of my all time favorite movies--the right stuff--sums it up pretty nicely

only test pilots are the true aviators :D

@Shalvenay monkeys flew to space right? :D

I'm exaggerating a bit i know, know what I mean?

Shalvenay

xD

I should throw another question up btw about how to find the SMGCS plan/charting for any given airport that has one in FAA-land

ymb1

do you know an example that has it?

wouldn't that be special software for ATC? and not plans per say

per se*

@Shalvenay add flight-training tag to your question, and if I may suggest this title: How are Airbus pilots trained for using the mechanical backup control systems?

i think it's more of how than how much

Shalvenay

Yes -- good point, edited

ymb1

04:55

@Shalvenay this way it won't be too broad ;)

@Shalvenay i'll let you know if i hear back about the training question, see ya later :)

Party Ark

08:53

@BrendaSeitz like @Shalvenay says it's from a Boeing B-47 Stratojet. You can read about it on Wikipedia.

Your canopy (if that's what it is, though I'm pretty confident it is) has clearly been there some time. It's not a crash site - a Stratojet didn't crash in your creek. It may have been left there - but looking at the way the mud and soil have covered part of it it looks more likely it's washed downstream. It's possible it's from an incident - any emergency exit from a Stratojet first involved jettisoning the canopy - but more likely to be something less exciting - like being dumped into…

mins

12:41

@uhoh: Hi, I was looking at this, with optical reflection on clouds!

uhoh

@mins ya please feel free to clean it up. I'm usually not much of a chatter,

@mins oh that is really great! I'm going to enjoy reading that. Thank you for locating it.

mins

I'm a ham but I haven"t used a transmitter for many years now, but in this community there is a lot of experiments (well that's in principle the reason for being allocated frequencies) with bouncing on everything, well know is meteor showers and the Moon, to create trans-horizon links on high frequencies. But cloud, I never heard of that!

uhoh

12:56

@mins about 10 years ago (in the US) I bought a nice new modern transceiver, relearned everything, got my copy speed up to 10 WPM and got an extra class license, then my job sent me to Taiwan which (at that time) had extremely strict laws about transmitters (for historical reasons). So these days I just read about the stuff on the internet :)

mins

@uhoh: ah 73... the most modern I had in HF was that

uhoh

@mins that's what they should look like! I bought a tiny Yaesu with all kinds of computer stuff inside that I never used or wanted, but it had up to 440 MHz and even then I was interested in satellites. I think I might have heard Oscar-40 once.

@mins Have you seen the FUnCube dongle?

@mins funcubedongle.com/?page_id=1073

Brenda Seitz

party ark but this loving cup from 1906 dedicated to miss grace walling was found in same creek as well...coincidence? you think? do you know of a lloyde christian? a artical I can't find...but someone else said he was a pilot flying from new York to tinker air force base with this cup and 40 other pieces and crashed.....the plane and body never found...I think in 1944.

mins

@uhoh: That's incredible! and now you can use "Six layer PCB"

@uhoh: Interesting use of the dongle: [Stealing Keys from PCs using a Radio:
Cheap Electromagnetic Attacks](http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/170.pdf)

uhoh

13:16

@mins oh - I see, there it is! Amazing.

mins

Software-defined radio is now everywhere, really a new era in communication. I remember a small patch for PC sound card to use them as VHF (?) receiver, it's somewhere online.

uhoh

@mins ok I need to 'sign off'. Did you want to add anything here? I left you a comment about it when I posted it a little earlier: space.stackexchange.com/q/18611/12102

mins

@uhoh: That's ok, thanks a lot, see U.

uhoh

@mins 73

Party Ark

14:46

@BrendaSeitz - "The plane and body never found" sounds like this whole thing is going to be some halloween story that I'm falling for.... your story about a crash in 1944 is just that, a story. It has no credibility until you get some facts. You'll need to do proper research at your local library, where they'll have newspapers, hopefully indexed, where you might find something.

It's a creek, and all the flotsam that ends up in it is not likely to be connected. Famously one well-known creek is actually named after the stuff that ends up in it.

ymb1

@PartyArk "You may like to know you're not the first person to find a Stratojet canopy," that doesn't put the B-47 in good light :D :D

makes a good premise for world building... a land strewn with canopies...

Brenda Seitz

15:39

it's not a story...it's all the truth...the uss alliance did give the loving cup to miss grace walling...documented in 1906.... and it was on a plane headed to okc....it's not a coincidence both items in same creek...or a halloween story...

and facts are what I am seeking on here, I thought someone could help me gather facts..not fiction...

Party Ark

16:06

@BrendaSeitz It's great that you want to find out more, but there's nothing to give credence to your story that there was a plane that crashed near your creek, nor what it was carrying. It might be true, but right now it's just what someone has told you. Stories tend to get confused and exaggerated over time. As I say, local libraries will be your best bet. Right now, all you really know is you found a cup in a creek, not how it got there.

It's extremely unlikely your cup has anything to do with the canopy you found. Both are good and interesting discoveries! It would be great if you could…

ymb1

17:27

@BrendaSeitz this might interest you: On 13 March 1958, a B-47 Stratojet exploded over southeast Tulsa, Oklahoma, killing one crewman and raining debris over at least 8 square miles. Two of the three men on the six-engine bomber on a training mission from McConnell Air Force Base in Wichita, Kansas, parachuted to safety. The third was trapped in the nose of the plane and died. Thousands of people on the ground heard the explosion and witnessed the plane's disintegration and fall

from here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-47_Stratojet

@BrendaSeitz my earlier comment replying to @PartyArk was a side joke, it was not about your particular find

@BrendaSeitz if you type @ you'll be able to tag (multi-tag) anyone in the chat

@voretaq7 ident

:D

voretaq7

@ymb1 <hurls transponder out the window in a fit of pique>

ymb1

lol

@voretaq7 transponder spotted, proceed as filed

Jay Carr

Man...this question feels like it ought to be an interesting one, but I think the author is really struggling to get his point across in English.

aviation.stackexchange.com/review/close/18391

ymb1

@JayCarr say intentions

Jay Carr

I did

ymb1

17:35

:D

Jay Carr

I'm not talking in your fancy ATC talk!

I still can only barely follow ATC when I listen to it...

ymb1

@JayCarr rogah

voretaq7

@JayCarr I cannot make sense of that particular word salad

Perhaps after I have a stroke?

@ymb1 My engine is running a teeeensy bit rough, I'm going to set down on Rockaway Beach…

ymb1

@JayCarr just read the question, had to end-task my reading.exe

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 Yeah....it's really pretty bad.

I was kind of hoping to get him in here so we can chat about what he's trying to say.

We'll see if he takes us up on that.

ymb1

17:40

@JayCarr very nice of you to link to here, we'll see, but it seems a question up Simon's alley, he doesn't visit here

@JayCarr plus rep 1 can't visit chat

i think...

Jay Carr

@ymb1 Oh, well, now I just look like a jerk.

ymb1

:D

Jay Carr

I suppose @voretaq7 could pull him into a chat if he was feeling super charitable.

But yeah, I think I know helicopters well enough to help him compose a question (even if I can't answer it.)

ymb1

@JayCarr we lost contact with @voretaq7 over some beach, situation unknown

Jay Carr

@KorvinStarmast Also knows helicopters pretty well, maybe he could straighten him out.

@ymb1 Reclining?

2

I guess that makes more sense as a response to "position unknown"

ymb1

17:43

@JayCarr there was a recent q/a about that blackhawk stabilizer, it was really good

i'll see if I can find it

maybe post it as related

Jay Carr

@ymb1 Might be a good way to go about it.

voretaq7

Crazy Pilot Lands on New York City Beach

►

The facepalming over that never gets old.

Brenda Seitz

@ymb1 thank you...am looking into that over tulsa..thank you

ymb1

@BrendaSeitz anytime, if you gather serial numbers etc, you might wanna contact the public relations of the USAF, they are most likely will be able to respond

@JayCarr this is it i think: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/27457/…

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 Ahhh...can't youtube at work :(

Maybe when I get home.

ymb1

17:49

@voretaq7 those "rogah's" lol

Jay Carr

@ymb1 Huh, TIL

ymb1

@BrendaSeitz wetumka is south of tulsa, explosion was South East of tulsa, but there are water ways that might have driven the canopy South West to that creek

Jay Carr

@ymb1 What's this?

ymb1

@JayCarr chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32900614#32900614

Jay Carr

@ymb1 Huh, interesting. Though I'm still not sure that would be a B-47 canopy. It looks similar, I agree. But it looked like one end was completely covered in metal? Which made me think it must have been resting against the fuselage (assuming it was on a jet to begin with.) And that would make it so the canopy would be backwards from the B-47s...

ymb1

17:59

@JayCarr my earlier guess was deformation due to canopy ejection rockets or something

@voretaq7 lovely recording, any idea how the FAA investigation went?

@JayCarr the crooked bit is the front edge

Jay Carr

@ymb1 What do you mean? (He asked as he headed off to a meeting...be back!)

ymb1

@JayCarr I'm replying to the video @voretaq7 sent

KorvinStarmast

@JayCarr I see the question, and while I think I know what he's getting at, I am asking him to clarify a few things. I have a couple of old manuals but can't find my systems notebook at the moment. Seahawk and Blackhawk are mostly the same, but there is a Collective inner loop actuator in the SAS in Seahawk that is not in black hawk. I don't think that materially influences his question.

@JayCarr actually, the CILA is in the AFCS, not in the SAS.

ymb1

@JayCarr that's the deformed front edge i meant, which normally would be flush with the windshield

@KorvinStarmast hello

Brenda Seitz

18:18

@ymb1and @JayCarr. @cirvinStamast thank u all...am in process of getting some numbers off of it..water to hi in creek now

Jay Carr

18:55

@KorvinStarmast Okay hopefully he clarifies it then. I can't even pretend to know exactly what you mean so...

@BrendaSeitz We could also use some clearer pictures of what @ymb1 has circle in the picture above. Heck, detailed pictures of the metal structure all around would be helpful, but that circled bit from a few different angles would really help.

voretaq7

@ymb1 I don't recall offhand, but I believe there was a certificate suspension or revocation involved.

TomMcW

@ymb1 The part you circled doesn't look deformed to me. It shapes an awful lot like the front edge of the B-47 canopy in this picture

Jay Carr

19:10

@TomMcW Right, but what would the giant metal bit under the arch be? That's not in the picture of the B-47 canopy you provide.

Plus your picture has a strip of metal down the center line.

Which the canopy in the woods does not have.

TomMcW

The part I can't reconcile with B-47 is this part:

Jay Carr

@TomMcW Which is what I just mentioned. Though you also can't reconcile the centerline metal strip from the B-47 photo with the image from the woods either, I would assume.

TomMcW

@JayCarr I think the thing underneath is a rock. The center strip is not in all B-47's.

Jay Carr

@TomMcW Oh?

I can't seem to find one that doesn't have it.

Huh, I had not realized we had another question just like this a few months ago:

12

Q: Can you identify this old cockpit canopy?

I stumbled across a cockpit canopy in the woods. What type of markings should I be looking for to identify this? And where exactly should I be looking for markings to identify this piece? Here is a photo of what I found.

The pictures in that question are of an actual B-47 canopy.

I would still contest they are different.

Though, to be honest, I think we could probably figure out a lot more with a better set of pictures.

TomMcW

@JayCarr If you look through Google images there are some B-47's with the center strip and some without. I found a site somewhere where these guys were reconstructing a 1:1 scale replica of a B-47 and they discussed that some had it and some didn't.

Jay Carr

19:23

@TomMcW I've been searching all over the place, I'm just not seeing it. It's not the I don't believe you... I assume it would have coincided with some model letter change. Just trying to find it.

@TomMcW Perhaps you are referencing this? wattflyer.com/forums/…

TomMcW

@JayCarr I think it was a different site, but maybe the same guy. There are lots of photos of the plane but hardly any that show it up close. Prob a cold war security thing.

Jay Carr

@TomMcW Yeah, kinda wondering the same thing.

@TomMcW @ymb1 Any chance it's a t-33 canopy? google.com/…

The folks on the model thread listed above are saying that the T-33 and the B-47 had the same canopy (and it looks like the T-33 never had that centerline strut).

Maybe there was a T-33 accident near Tulsa at some point>

@BrendaSeitz Are you anywhere in the vacinity of McConnell AFB? Sorry if you've been asked this already.

@BrendaSeitz Ignore that last question... McConnel is in Kansas. Got a little confused for a second.

@TomMcW Apparently B-47s crashed a lot...aviation-safety.net/wikibase/…

As has the T-33 aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=T33

And now I seriously need to just drop this for now (jeez, sometimes the way I get sucked into things is kinda scary)

TomMcW

19:58

@JayCarr Yeah. It's interesting and fun trying to solve stuff like this until you realize you've wasted hours messing with it

Jay Carr

@BrendaSeitz This may be of interest: tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=15640.160;wap2

@TomMcW This is basically where I'm headed at this point.

@BrendaSeitz Also this: tulsatvmemories.com/gb041809.html

If you search for B-47 on that page you get a lot of hits.

I think the real thing I'm trying to figure out is if any of this is close to where you found that suppose canopy.

Because if you are close to all of that...well, I think that may tell us something.

And one more for luck: tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/…

@TomMcW That's just an interesting read right above ^^

Jay Carr

20:18

And here's a high resolution shot of a B-47 that you can zoom right in on if you want to see the canopy.

That clearly shows it to not have the center strip of metal on it @TomMcW, so there's proof.

And it looks a heck of a lot like the canopy in the images @BrendaSeitz posted. Provided you consider that the metal would have rusted and that the white sealant around the metal may have turned black from exposure.

Anyway @BrendaSeitz @TomMcW, I'm willing to bet money at this point that that canopy is from TB-47 c/n 50-013 (the one referenced in the articles above.) Which would make it a pretty interesting part of local history, to be sure.

You might see if the B-47 association would be willing to come out and confirm that though. b-47.com

If you do get it confirmed, please come back and tell me so I can feel like my prowling around the internet for 3 hours was worth it...

TomMcW

@JayCarr It was a B-47 that jettisoned the Tybee Island nuke after a mid-air with an F-86. That bomb is still out there somewhere.

@JayCarr BTW that canopy was found 60 miles from Tulsa

ymb1

20:41

@TomMcW howdy

Party Ark

Good work - however @JayCarr the B-47 crash you cited came down right in the centre of Tulsa. That's about 60 miles from where the canopy was found. So possible, but I wouldn't put it in the 'likely' category.

ymb1

@TomMcW skimmed thru what you said, I still think it's B-47, check this chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32900614#32900614

Party Ark

ymb1

@TomMcW there are water ways SE of Tulsa that could have taken it to that creek

Party Ark

canopies without centre-bars for the sceptical!

ymb1

20:42

@PartyArk (Y)

Brenda Seitz

@TomMcW @PartyArk @TomMcW @JayCarr...thank you so much..think we are getting closer as well...please...I am not wasting anyone's time....I will come back daily and post what I have found out...don't stop...we could all be tuning up a bit of histoy.....I am so appreciative of all of you.

TomMcW

The other candidate is a T-33. Unfortunately it was apparently raining B-47's back then. And they apparently had a bit of a T-33 storm at the time too

ymb1

@TomMcW chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32896295#32896295 ;)

Party Ark

@TomMcW Although I think early T33s did have a centre-hoop (most didn't), I'm pretty sure none had the third glazed segment right at the back.

Jay Carr

@PartyArk Yes, but how long was the canopy blown before it crashed? That flight had problems at 22,000 ft, remember.

The real question is what direction was the B-47 flying in.

If it was coming from the direction of the location the canopy was found in, this would still likely make sense.

Party Ark

20:51

@JayCarr sure it's totally plausible that's the accident. Unlike you I wouldn't put money on it though :)

Jay Carr

@PartyArk Well, I'm still keeping the bet low until I can somehow get more information on where the flight was coming from when it crashed...

Brenda Seitz

@PartyArk..this creek is located 45 miles sw of tulsa....it's very likely, I am checking to see how far it goes north now....what is the earliest year this plane flew?

Jay Carr

One of the articles had a bit of a description of the placement of the debree...I wonder if I can learn anything by trying to create a debri field out of that.

@BrendaSeitz The one we are talking about? 1951 it looks like: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-47_Stratojet

The crash I referenced happened in 1958.

Brenda Seitz

ok....thank you @JayCarr

Jay Carr

@BrendaSeitz Here is the article again if you are curious" tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/…

Party Ark

20:55

@BrendaSeitz you said it was in Wetumka? Direct to the middle of Tulsa is 68 miles. If it's not there perhaps you can be more precise.

Jay Carr

@PartyArk I don't think the plane crashed in downtown Tulsa.

It's a fairly large city...

If it's on the outskirts that could be the difference of a few miles.

@PartyArk This quote is a bit more specific though: What scared Sewell and many others on March 13, 1958, was the explosion and crash of an Air Force B-47 jet bomber, killing one crew member, injuring two others, and scattering debris over a 6-square-mile area southeast of 21st Street and Yale Avenue.

Party Ark

"Debris was reported from 21st to 51st streets between Yale Avenue and Memorial Drive. The largest chunk – a portion of the rear fuselage and landing gear – landed in a pasture about 200 yards from a home in the 2200 block of Memorial." It's pretty central Tulsa.

Jay Carr

lol, yes, yes it is.

I've been on 21st, you'd think I'd have remember that.

Brenda Seitz

we were told of a artical I have not been able to find yet on my phone...that is was a crash in 1944 loyde christian pilot name...with 40 pics of silver....that loving cup to miss grace walling from the uss alliance in 1906 was one of the pieces on it....and the plane crashes going from new york to tinker airforce okc. now we may have two separate finds.....the canopy....and cup together......or separate instances???? I just think it's the same....to big of a coincident

Jay Carr

Granted, it does say "6 square mile area SE of 21st & Yale"

@BrendaSeitz The B-47 wasn't around in 1944...in fact we had no jets in service at that time.

I think only Germany did at that time.

I honestly don't think they are related, but I may be wrong.

I really struggled to find anything pre-jet age with a canopy that looked anything like that though.

Brenda Seitz

21:00

yes. 60 miles away north of me.

Jay Carr

@BrendaSeitz Any chance you can drop a pin on Google maps and just share the coordinates of where this thing is?

Brenda Seitz

one..I don't know how to do that....and two I don't want to do that till I get out of the creek....may be more silver in the creek...was suppose to be 40 pcs....only one has been found....the silver living cup.

@JayCarr

Jay Carr

@PartyArk @BrendaSeitz Hmm, the more I read the article, the more it sounds like that particular B-47 accident was almost all visible from Tulsa... The Canopy probably was pretty far south of town, but I'm not really sure how it would have gotten all the way out to Wetumka... If the wind was strong enough and it got washed down the stream a bit maybe.

@BrendaSeitz Not sure what you're referencing... At any rate, I think a few more close up pictures of both ends of the canopy would be good, if you're near it.

@PartyArk Plus it sounds like the debris field trailed to the South East (from the article) and Watumka is to the South West.....

@PartyArk Okay, I'm not putting money on it anymore. But I will still say "you never know, it could have wondered over there, especially if it was in a stream."

Brenda Seitz

21:21

@PartyArk. research a James southerland spore. and a grace walling spore....gov.of quam and more....it's all navy...and I am thinking it could have been a German plane or something..he was a powerful man....everywhere.....it's his daughter miss walling spore that the cup was dedicated to in 1906 ....or his wife?? not sure yet....I can find how to post a pic on this chat thing..or I would show you...lol.

@JayCarr

Party Ark

@BrendaSeitz you can use the upload button to the right of where you type. Once you start typing you can't upload though!

I will say again though - it's very, very unlikely the cup you found has any connection with the canopy you found.

@BrendaSeitz - also, I would urge you to get in touch with these guys, they're aviation archaeologiests based in Oklahoma City and they will know what to do with your canopy, which is substantial - okwreckchasing.org

Brenda Seitz

21:48

all of you...please don't get frustrated...lol..like me..it consumes me when I get spare time...it's good folks like yall than uncover alot of answers that were hidden and or forgotten....I will keep you all posted.....I think the James Sutherland Spore has something to do with this.

I don't have a upload button...just a arrow pointing right for sending message..@PartyArk

Shalvenay

23:19

@voretaq7 should I start building you a new one?

@KorvinStarmast hey again

KorvinStarmast

23:38

@Shalvenay hey to you. :)

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast -- how're things going? I'm fine over here, just dealing with a bit of recall fun and games

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