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2:00 AM
Basically that trad games are more alike than different. Even Fate strikes me as more similar than different on most points.
 
Well, I'm very interested in theory and experience.
 
The key difference being that thing about fictional reality versus objective reality.
I like how it embraces that attempting to simulate objective reality can create a lot more noise than light.
 
Most of the RPGs I've spent time in claim to work with at least a modicum of simulationist agenda, and from what I've seen traditional games generally did the same.
In that sense, Fate feels very different to me.
 
It's "just" simulating something different
but yes
 
I'm also very attracted to the sense of the GM as first among equals.
 
2:03 AM
Yeah, although that's another thing I've been doing for a long time.
 
It's the first system I've worked in that didn't have a strong player/GM split, often encouraging a relationship of animosity that I'd have to fight tooth and claw.
 
I'm not sure how exactly I got into the practice of running games by consensus rather than fiat.
 
(Any system where knowledge checks are the default method of passing information to players as well as to characters smells of an inherent us vs them hostility to me.)
 
I don't think it's something I ran across in a rulebook.
 
@BESW I very much encourage you to check out most if not all of the games I've mentioned in this discussion :P
 
2:05 AM
@BESW My groups have always had that more as an avoiding spoilers thing, rather than antagonism.
Most people are very sensitive about spoiler. I personally don't mind them much.
 
@BraddSzonye I actually reached the point in one 3.5 campaign where a player felt free to tell me that I wasn't Doing It Right because they knew the monsters and setting better than I did.
 
I've seen some research that suggests that most people actually like stories better when they've been spoiled. But people react to spoilers badly anyway.
 
@BraddSzonye I think I might mostly agree there, at least scoped to social conflict... but yea, you made some huge generalised statements that raised my hackles. I do apologise.
 
My next campaign had all the same monsters, but an entirely reskinned world so nobody could recognize what mechanic corresponded with what manual entry.
 
@Sohum It's cool, the context probably wasn't clear to somebody coming in from outside. Might not even have been clear to BESW.
 
2:07 AM
@BraddSzonye Fate's big on minimal secrets to maximize working together to tell the story.
 
@BraddSzonye It's an attitude thing. "Spoilers" only matter when there is something to be spoiled; i.e., the GM/player split is still there and the players figure their role is to wander about GMland
 
@Problematic We are back to actually talking about Fate instead of babbling on and talking past each other. ;)
Thanks for objecting.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:32 AM
Changed my accepted answer on the Iron Man question. Sorry, @waxeagle, word of god wins.
 
@Magician fine by me :). That's why accept isn't permanent :)
 
@ObliviousSage Hopefully this new guy edits his question so I can upvote it and answer
 
 
1 hour later…
4:58 AM
599 messages moved from FATE game room
 
@BrianBallsun-Stanton that's... quite a lopping
 
@Problematic long, long in the future, far, far away, Luke almost detects a disturbance in the force
 
@JonathanHobbs as if 599 voices cried out in terror and were suddenly moved from the dining room to the parlor?
 
@Problematic haha yes
 
5:15 AM
@Problematic yes, it is.
oh, and in the future, when you get to that, that's what flag for mod is for, cause... it's a lot easier to do when it's the last 600 messages, instead of 600 messages in the middle of... 1200 messages
 
shrug I got chased out. That's on them.
 
@Problematic yep.
::muttermuttermuttermuttermuttermuttermutter::
 
@BrianBallsun-Stanton I'll remember that for next time
 
also, what the hell happened to the dragon?
why is there a wolf?
argh?>
 
Kirby hid, the dragon failed miserably to find him, and then Kirby had a vision of urgent business to attend to
 
5:23 AM
... right
and thus sang has, for next game, the dragon to deal with, good.
status quo ante.
 
a dragon who... I think... either forgot about the monk out of paying attention to the wizard then couldn't see him, or figured the monk got roasted at the same time.
but if it's the latter, Sanguine may be confronted by a dragon who thinks he's gone and roasted the monk
I can't remember what happened around that part
 
Ask not where the dragon is, for you are always within its reach. Ask not what the dragon is, for to know the dragon is to be the dragon. Ask not who the dragon is, for it may be you.
I'm... not entirely sure what brought that on :P
 
@Magician and then john was a dragon
(if you haven't read/experienced Doom: Repercussions Of Evil I suggest you do. It is... a phenomenon)
Also hi @BESW!
 
@JonathanHobbs what monk?
 
er. The Oracle. Kirby.
 
5:33 AM
(I'm still catching up with the transcript before I hop into the game chat proper)
 
I keep thinking of him as a monk.
 
@Magician For some reason, I got an immediate and strong vision of The Narrator saying "I am Jack's barbaric yawp."
2
 
lol
monk
people all think he is a monk, or an old man
 
5:49 AM
yes, this is true
only slightly better than grabby vines
 
@trogdor You should say something about what he looks like in his character page!
 
lol
it doesn't matter very much to me
or to him
 
I dunno, I'd kind of like to know what he looks like, but playing a character with sight, I'm a bit biased ;P
 
Ooh, I think I have a picture of Og.
Like this, but scruffier.
 
@BESW I like the illustration.
 
6:05 AM
@BraddSzonye I've used it before.
Had a Captain America clone dwarf with that face once.
 
@JonathanHobbs My working hypothesis was that the dragon had more pressing things to deal with than the Kirby, so if Kirby managed to stay well out of sight, the dragon would deal with the other things.
Also, the dragon failed miserably
 
Yeah, success with style will do that.
And it's a young dragon. An older dragon, having been insulted and then dared to eat the insulter, wouldn't have stopped for anything until it was sure the insult had been avenged and the Forest made a less rude place.
 
If Kirby had been the one to fail miserably, or made a point of showing himself, I would've had some improv to do :)
@BESW Yeah, I also presumed a bit of insult ADD being transfered from Kirby to the wizard lackey.
 
As it is... well, Kirby should hope that the dragon doesn't see him again.
 
So that he'd have at least a chance to escape.
 
6:12 AM
...and that no one reminds the dragon of him.
 
@Bradd Alright. :) I suppose maybe Kirby hid so well he even hid himself from the dragon's short-term memory, haha
(An Oracle who knows and makes others un-know.... hmmmm!)
(that's a neat concept.)
 
It is!
 
I'm off for a few hours. @BESW I can't decide whether Stellata should know how to speak Sindaria's language, but in order to prevent things being too difficult I think she should?
or at least should have some decent way of communicating
it would be an interesting complication if communication was difficult though.
/away!
 
7:17 AM
@JonathanHobbs the communication difficulties thing sounds like a character to be defeated to me...
 
@JonathanHobbs I've generally assumed a common language, but Brian's idea has interesting potential.
 
If important things are characters, according to the fate fractal, let's test it!
 
That is the point of this game.
 
7:33 AM
mmm
I might have to run that after dinner
if people are around who are um thingy
ping me in 3 hours to evaluate this, please, players who play stellata and sin
... who... aren't on..
 
 
2 hours later…
10:02 AM
Morning all!
is my new question http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/26113/what-should-a-new-gm-know-when-starting-their-first-paranoia-game a full-on duplicate of http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/7653/what-is-some-good-advice-for-starting-paranoia-with-a-new-group

There's a lot of overlap, but it's more slanted to a new gm trying their first new system, rather than an experienced gm trying another system. Would that keep it different enough.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:19 AM
@StuperUser :
To my eyes, it's a full duplicate. The answers to the older question don't seem to assume any particular diversity in a GM's experience, and cover the subject well.

Put it like this: Reading through the answers there, do they seem helpful to you? Is there anything there that makes you go "I can't do _that_, that'd take a much more experienced GM?" If so, what?

If you have a _particular_ problem approaching _Paranoia_, something about the system that you just can't grok - that'd be another matter. But there's no point in taking a question _"How can I do [foo] in [bar]?"_, and
 
@StuperUser wait, your first gming system is Paranoia?
Fear and uncertainty. These are your watchwords. Your players are out to get you.
 
11:46 AM
@BrianBallsun-Stanton it's my second system after PF. It's my first time trying a new system.
 
@StuperUser I'm so sorry. But it should be fun.
 
@Standback That makes sense, do we want this closed and visible or shall I delete it?
 
@StuperUser I can mark as dupe if oyu want
 
@BrianBallsun-Stanton Yeah, I've heard such good things about it. I'll fully absorb all of the advice and the rules to understand how to run it as fun as possible. Gives me an excuse to finally watch Brazil as well.
@BrianBallsun-Stanton Please do.
 
@StuperUser you must also watch The Prisoner, citizen. both the original and remake.
 
12:22 PM
@BrianBallsun-Stanton I've just seen your userId number on here; Do you know who number 1 is? You are number 9.
 
@StuperUser I am not a number! I am a free man!
(But if I was a number, I'd be 760)
#2 is a stack employee
And #6 is someone with a very low rep, as is... appropriate.
 
1:06 PM
@StuperUser I believe #1 is reserved across the board, but I'm not sure
ah no. It's Marc Gravell, quite naturally
on chat.
on RPG the lowest active user is rpg.stackexchange.com/users/8/yhw42
@BrianBallsun-Stanton oh wow, you only joined the month before I did...
 
 
1 hour later…
2:33 PM
Protected account, can't see the tweet.
 
Durp.
> It's not that I want the next doctor to be played by Idris Elba, really. It's that I want everyone to be played by Idris Elba.
 
Fair enough. I'd prefer Hugh Laurie, myself.
 
I'm not sure how much he could be the Doctor.
 
It's worth it for just the Dr House association. Have you seen A Bit of Fry and Laurie?
 
Little clips.
 
2:41 PM
That's basically what it was, anyway.
 
@BESW good morning (or time zone appropriate equivalent (OTZAE))
 
@C.Ross Morning by 42 minutes.
 
hello all
@BESW FATE question for your thoughts
 
Gnoooooooooomes, mah thuts.
 
@C.Ross 'ello
 
2:44 PM
what do you think of context heavy aspects?
 
Example?
 
for example you might have a race aspect like dwarf that implies " A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry."
with the right context/setting that one word can imply a lot of things
 
Ah, an aspect in which a single word carries a multiplicity of meaning which is not readily apparent --or even possible to understand-- without game/setting/group-specific foreknowledge?
I see no problem with it provided the meanings are clear to the group.
 
@BESW not necessarily single word, but yes, that has many meanings that are not readily apparently without the context/setting
yeah, shared context is important
 
There are plenty of existing words/phrases which already do this, and we don't limit them.
 
2:48 PM
@BESW what examples come to mind?
 
One moment and I'll find a link to Brian's PC creation.
in FATE game room, May 18 at 8:12, by Brian Ballsun-Stanton
High Concept: Assassin-Monk seeking her first blood.
Context: a tweens-age girl trained as an assassin, sent out to make her first kill, but with a Red Riding Hood narrative loaded with implicit themes of physical/mental/emotional maturation.
 
yes
and that is very context dependent
 
Although it was very interesting, I put the kibosh on any aspect that would require me to make references to menstruation mid-play in order to invoke part of its meaning.
 
"Monk" has radically different meanings based on context and setting
 
In this case, she was trained as an assassin by a religious order.
 
2:51 PM
ah
 
So yeah, I have no problem with such words/phrases. So long as the group is clear on them, what does it matter that anyone else might be confused?
 
true
Thinking about running a FATE game set in DF
it has great dramatic context, but there are many setting assumptions
 
(If anyone ever makes a Michelangelo Fate PC, one aspect really must be Cowabunga or Booyakasha.)
 
:-D
anyway, off to mow some grass
 
ttfn
 
3:02 PM
@C.Ross Which DF is that? Dresden Files? Dwarf Fortress?
 
@JonathanHobbs @someguy is hopeful for Dwarf Fortress: Fate, but Ross probably means Dresden Files.
 
imgur.com/gallery/tgIDufB I need to share this somewhere
 
@BESW I actually...don't know. He is a Dwarf Fortress player
 
Or he could be considering a political game set within a right-wing Danish party..
 
So @BESW, I found an old post of mine that I'm going to use to explain to people about The Spellcasting, Bro in 3.5
 
3:12 PM
@Lord_Gareth Oh dear.
 
giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14655787&postcount=300 <-Oh it's nothing too horrible. It's just...look at all the utility I just got out of one Cleric level
One measly Cleric level
 
3:40 PM
@BESW That warm feeling of helping a new person with an easy question.
 
@JonathanHobbs no, I mean Dwarf Fortress
 
@C.Ross I know a guy who'd love to see your notes.
 
I'll share them once I have them
currently just rolling around my head
thinking that the fortress/expedition will have it's own character sheet ...
 
with special stress tracks for food, booze, and wealth
 
3:46 PM
@BESW Is it just me or should that rules interpretation have been really, really easy?
 
A) No. B) Don't boast. C) Maybe the guy lobbed an easy one over the plate to build up rep on his first day.
 
If I'm going to boast it'll be about answering something difficult. This isn't the first item question I've seen (the other recent one is Pathfinder) that is glaringly obvious
 
> A paladin uses her level as her effective cleric level when channeling positive energy.
That's pretty general.
You're used to navigating the quirks of poorly-worded exception-based systems.
That's a skill.
 
I suppose, it's just...I mean, it called out a specific class feature in the item >.<
 
 
1 hour later…
5:10 PM
@Magician MWG seems to have a habit of dropping licenses after short periods with them...
 
5:31 PM
@Lord_Gareth having taught a lot of people to play D20, reading comprehending those rules is a special skill. Most people who are new to it struggle to get through character creation.
 
5:51 PM
Hello @Archwillow
uhm I believed he was new and wanted to welcome him, he has some reputation instead
 
 
1 hour later…
6:57 PM
Hey @C.Ross, would you mind checking rpg.stackexchange.com/a/26132/6172 <-My answer over?
 
@Lord_Gareth for content or snark?
it looks fine to me ...
I'm not 100% certain I agree, or perhaps that the answer is comprehensive
 
That's as best as I understand the topic myself
 
fair enough then
 
Some of the groups he talked about do maintain a ban list on even first-party material, which is a sad statement indeed.
Pathfinder Society banned a ton of Pathfinder content while Paizo continues to stick its fingers in its ears and shriek that its game is perfect.
 
I'd argue that within D&D there are several levels; at the very least, most 3.5 games I was in did not allow 3.0 material at all.
 
7:08 PM
The technical rule from WotC is that any 3.0 content that didn't get a 3.5 update is still legal and RAW.
 
ponders
WotC says that, but I don't think that's usually the stance of the community
> The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any material components or focus item, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target’s spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell. At every odd numbered level after 1st, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional use of this ability per day.
Wow.
I'd never come across that class before, that's silly
 
Yeah, kill that thing with fire
 
Does it consume XP if that's required?
 
@C.Ross XP is a material component.
 
@BraddSzonye Incorrect.
XP is its own component and is called out as such in spell descriptions.
 
7:14 PM
@BraddSzonye ummm, no
 
Oh right, it's a component, not a material component. My bad.
Been a few years since I played D&D3.
 
@C.Ross It doesn't get rid of XP components (note how the ability doesn't mention them), nor does it get rid of the special requirements behind Sanctified or Corrupt spells
 
OK, that's slightly less broken than I thought.
 
Skipping spell resistance alone is very broken.
 
@BraddSzonye Casting all your stuff as (Su) is PRECISELY as broken as you think. Spells that can't be dispelled? Yes please.
 
7:17 PM
Permanent self-buffs with no XP component would be even more broken. :)
 
Yeah but we can get that already without Dweomerkeeper
It's not even terribly hard.
Additionally, spells subjected to Permanency can be dispelled
If you want effectively-permanent self-buffing just save yourself the pain and go DMM Persist for it.
 
ah 3.x
a game that requires DM's to say no to the RAW for their sanity
 
@Lord_Gareth When I played D&D regularly, we often divided first-party and third-party stuff into subcategories.
For example, we treated Dragon practically the same as second-party even before they spun it off to Paizo.
 
Dragon is second-party
It's always been second-party
And it's never really been what I'd call trustworthy either. Some (okay, almost all) of its content was hideously poor in quality, horribly worded and generally underpowered to the point of being personally insulting
 
How was it second-party when TSR still owned it?
 
7:22 PM
The same way Metroid Prime is second party.
 
I don't know Metroid to make the comparison.
Dragon was a house organ, originally.
Not a licensed property.
 
But it wasn't incorporated into canon or supported by TSR - not really. It featured lots of out-of-house writers and opinion pieces, etc.
 
I don't see how that's different from TSR using freelancers for supplements.
 
In practical terms, it's not. But 'support' is essentially the difference between first and second party anyway, so...
 
7:27 PM
Also, I think features like Sage Advice were intended to be canon.
Sage Advice has always been unreliable – but so is Customer Service. :)
 
CustServ and the Sage are both kinda...interesting to deal with.
 
Yeah.
 
Since they never know what the unholy hell they're talking about
And are constantly categorically wrong
 
It's basically the same as getting one DM's opinion – an insider DM, but still a very human one.
 
Except you're certified to be asking a knuckle-dragging droolmonkey
Instead of anyone whose opinion is worth listening to
 
7:29 PM
Heh, Wizards trusted Skip Williams to go on to be a core author. ;)
 
Don't remind me >.<
Though admittedly that's nowhere near as horrible as Sean K. Reynolds exisitng.
Let alone being in charge of a community over which he has significant influence.
 
I suppose you could justify Dragon and Dungeon as being a second party to the core development team, although it's a bit tough to distinguish between that and freelancers on core products.
Third party you could divvy up further between licensed and unofficial products. Although in practice we did it more by publisher than by licensing status.
And that's really separate from the issue of “official” products.
(Unless you're talking about e.g. the canon of Freeport.)
 
Third-party stuff is out-of-house and not licensed, y'know. There's an actual definition.
 
Licensed as in OGL, not as in Star Wars
The two kinds of license don't have the same nature.
I would expect a second-party license to still exert some creative control or approval.
OGL licensees have the nature of a third-party developer as described here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer
(Which might make for a good reference for your answer.)
By that description, I would call TSR Dragon first-party, Paizo Dragon second-party, and Green Ronin third-party.
 
8:09 PM
@C.Ross have y'all picked the winners for the contest yet?
 
@waxeagle not yet
 
 
2 hours later…
10:03 PM
@waxeagle we're waiting on the stack admins to [muttermuttermutter]
 
 
1 hour later…
11:19 PM
I stumbled across the old “insomniac monkeys” question. Funny situation, kinda bizarre, although I think a lesser version of it is common in a lot of games. Offered some new advice based on my own experiences with it.
 
11:30 PM
@BraddSzonye Interesting...
I really like the first three paragraphs, and the rest of the essay, but they seem almost entirely unrelated.
 
My players never went nuts like that – for me it was enough just to say that doing stuff takes a half-day or whatever.
 
You start out talking about table-level motives and table-level responses, but all of your concrete suggestions are world-level implementations.
 
Yeah, I generally prefer table-level responses. But he said that those didn't work. :)
World-level implementations can work though, if you tie them to the table-level motives and make the rationale clear.
And don't go overboard with the stick.
Especially the passive-aggressive stick. That trick never works.
 
Yeah, carrot/stick balances are very important.
 
So the point of the first two sections is to reinforce why you do this, and the second half is for picking out the bits which address it.
And I've used some of them in practice, so I know that they (can) have the desired effect.
 
11:35 PM
I... guess I'd want an answer to spend more time on techniques for understanding why the players are doing it, so that I could use strategies that actually fit the problem?
 
The most effective pacing “rule” I found was the one adventure per season rule.
 
Very Mouseguardy.
 
At the time, I was dissatisfied with the fact that so many RPG campaigns rush from 1st level to epic in the course of a couple of game months.
I wasn't sure that taking urgency off the table would work, but it did.
 
My favorite campaigns were the ones without target endlevels and no explicit campaign plot to start. We'd spend the first few levels basically wandering around my world and I'd take notes on what they thought was cool (which became important and recurring) and what was lackluster to them (which faded away, never to be seen again).
Then I'd mix the things they found compelling with the noses they'd put out of joint in the process, and from that tension and plot would slowly curdle.
By the end of the campaign (these were usually based on school semesters, so it was a real-life deadline instead of a level-based one) things would be hopping, but it happened organically.
And I'd try to orchestrate downtime even then; stories have small ups and downs in tension within the larger structure.
And often the players just hand you something brilliant on a silver platter.
Start here for a short anecdote In Which The Players Increase The Tension For Me.
 
11:54 PM
I have had some awesome groups.
 
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