@BESW He Litterally had to Hightail it or die.

Thinking about dropping Evocation too. Conjuration Has a Few Low level Blast spells like Kelgores fire bolt.

@Magician "Goblin Dice" nicely sums up why D&D is a combat system despite all good-faith efforts to twist it otherwise.

@BESW glad you liked it :)

I'm thinking about FATE in that context.

hello BESW and Magician.

@Novian Hi!

It's still gobliny, but provided a story-based mechanic for mitigation.

@Novian Yopp!

@BESW Yeah. It has a bell curve, and a way to influence it. You have to be really unlucky to die due to a single roll there

Basically FATE rewards you with anti-goblin-dice resources for doing story stuff.

@BESW Which is how you'd want it, I think.

I think its funny that for the most part the Entire Bo9S can be nulified by a 3rd level spell until much later Levels in the classes in that book.

because for the most part those classes dont use ranged attacks.

I think it's why I hope I never get a group that likes 3.5 ever again.

Because I will run the system if it's the group's desire, at least until I can sell them on something else. Because that's what a GM does.

Damnit.

Im just a Nostalgist I suppose. Cant get used to 4e and our selection of other RPG's is limited.

is Nostalgist even a word?

It is now.

I suppose so.

...Gamist, Simulationist, Narrativist and Nostalgist. We found out what DnDN is!

Ive been itching to play L5R again.

This week however has 3.5 Scheduled and possibly a Session of a Bleach RPG that one of our group members designed.

I'm afraid Nostalgism is very hard to really satisfy. The trappings of the Good Old Days do not bring back the Good Old Days.

That's why I always face/palm when Whedon talks about never giving up on Firefly.

this is true because once you stop and look around you see the crap that has replaced it.

@BESW That's because the Good Old Days weren't that good.

Like Video Games and the Progression twoard quantity vs quality.

@BESW Also, I'm fairly certain he has no intention of reviving the TV series. And I don't mind the occasional comics.

@Novian It doesn't matter what has come after; things have changed, regardless of how. The context is different, the people are different, and the ineffable combination of circumstances will never return.

The best thing to do is to lumber forward and seek new ineffable combinations of circumstances.

I still to this day cannot understand how madden makes so much money when it is pretty much the same year after year. with minor overhauls and shiny new comercials.

and how justin beiber was ever popular.

those two things have confounded me for some time.

Now you're just waving a shotgun at the damn kids on your lawn.

Why should they be allowed on my lawn?

I just finished weeding

'and mowing.

The thing is, you were a kid on someone else's lawn too. Beiber and Madden are not new problems (if you consider them problems at all); they are new symptoms of very old cultural practices.

True true. Still confounds me.

3.5 is the new kid on AD&D's lawn.

The only experience with AD&D I have is the terrible Supernintendo games made for it.

Although I was tempted to buy the reprints of the books I didnt have the money.

RPG books are expensive.

I know several people who might overreact and die of exitement if any new firefly related works are produced.

@BESW If he has more things to say, why not. But it's been mentioned several times that everyone's gone their own way, has their own careers, etc. And Whedon is going to be extremely busy showrunning SHIELD, directing next Avengers, and perhaps being courted for new Star Wars

Agreed.

theres gonna be another avengers movie?

New Star Wars?

...what rock have you been living under? :D

I think I am a bit out of the loop.

I dont hear about these things.

@Novian Disney bought Star Wars and is planning to do three more films.

...Crap...

There'll be more Avengers because first one was hugely popular. They have extensive plans for 2 more movies, with other universe movies (like Iron Man 3, Captain America 2, Doctor Strange, etc) in between

I still havnt seen Iron Man 1

Cant get access to it.

Sigh. I just want old Jaime Reyes back in some form.

If its not on netflix or what few tv channels I get I dont hear about it.

@Novian Honestly, Disney has a fairly decent not-ruining-things-they-buy track record, and what can they do that Lucas hasn't already?

Not saying it's gonna be great, though it could be. But if Star Wars hasn't hit bottom yet, it's already far enough down we won't hear the splat when it lands.

True True. but I have my reasons for my aprehensiveness. Not that they make sense to anyone or are they neccesarily the truth.

I will wait and see what they do.

People are rightfully suspicious of Disney as an Unfeeling Conglomerate Overlord of Entertainment-like Products, but they're good at recognizing their overhead relies on people liking their stuff.

Those Arent My reasons but what you say is true.

They do own quite a bit dont they.

That I have noticed over the years.

...heh. Last year there were rumors about Disney buying Hasbro.

This makes me want to see Lauren Faust's Star Wars.

I heard about that.

Lauren Faust?

Extremely talented animator involved with some of the more successful cartoon shows of the last two generations.

Like?

Powerpuff Girls, Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, The Iron Giant, Friendship is Magic...

She has a strong focus on character-driven stories.

ah. Forgive me if I do not remember her name but her work I am indeed familiar with. Fosters home and PPG I grew up with.

ALthough CN's lineup is less than stellar nowadays.

She got an Emmy for Foster's.

I wouldnt doubt. Fosters was good.

More recently she did Friendship is Magic for Hasbro, the DC Nation Shorts Super Best Friends are Forever for CN, and an upcoming Disney cartoon show Wander Over Yonder.

FiM I have heard of but do not care to watch and the other two I havent heard of.

Frankie from Foster's is supposedly an homage to her.

I like FiM very much. [grin]

Hmm. So an Overworked teenager in a chaotic house full of Childish Thoughts?

Sounds like the mind of a talented Individual to me.

Hmm That reminds me I need to find my copy of The Girl Who leapt through Time.

Dont ask me how it reminds me. I dont understand myself

Free association is one of the great gifts of the human mind.

it is in fact a rather distracting image.

Back to a previous topic. If the Star wars franchise has already covered all its books what will said new Star Wars be about.

Almost certainly ignoring all previous canon post VI.

hmm.

Only films are canon in pop culture.

I wonder if the disney influence will make stormtroopers aim better.

they certainly cant be made to shoot any worse.

There is one and only one film franchise I will not support the continuing of. the Eragon Franchise Should never be allowed to make another movie.

I was dissapointed that the Series of Unfortunate Events Series never produced any more movies.

Well Ive annoyed you folks long enough with my rambling I must be off. I have things that need doing that Ive been putting off all day.

@BESW I need a pithy name for the system from yesterday's post

Ermmm.

Which version?

The one that still has a GM

Cute, descriptive, acronym?

Pithy!

Hmmm.

Director, question, proposition, story point, add-on, agency

I'm moving toward something like "Story Direction."

Mmm. I like. 'Director' is the key word here, I think

Using "diegesis" would be snobby.

musical director's chairs.

Out of Character Experience

Heh.

That could work.

I'm thinking about director-related concepts.

megaphone, chair, etc.

Pass the Megaphone?

... it's hard not to @reply you, @Magician

The Pink Pages?

@BrianBallsun-Stanton ?

@Magician ::points at gtalk::

Call a Writers Meeting?

Some things are not for publically indexed venue :)

I just see you here and go Ah hah! you're on.

I'm silly.

Confusion!

very

I like "Pass the Megaphone" and "Out of Character Experience."

@BESW I do, too. I think the first option would require referencing a megaphone in the text.

cool, i'll think about it some more, thanks for input. and now, lunch time!

Was somebody here after maps for post-apocalyptic cities? There's a stupendous painting of on that's just been finished - blog.microdungeons.com/2012/09/the-year-of-apocalypse.html

So, um, I just spent a couple minutes having chat redirect me to area 15.

@BESW Weird... I've not had any problems here.

Bah.

My internet provider has been known to route attempts to check its local competitor's email around the world five times, and occasionally will lose track of any website based in California.

Were these the same issues you had yesterday?

@BESW Bizarre...

No, yesterday the chat was fine but the rpg site itself was failing to ping.

@SimonGill Oh, I have stories.

Like the two years they spent ignoring their own techs' analysis that there was a faulty ground line, and instead kept accusing us of breaking things.

@BESW I bet.

Monopoly, right?

Ish.

Used to be a monopoly: government telephone authority.

Then a law got passed that they had to sell use of the lines at cost to any third party company, and panties got twisted in a big way.

Now there's Guam Telephone Authority, and one private competitor. Their services are approximately the same quality, but GTA is cheaper if you don't want cable TV in the bargain.

@BESW heh, these kinds of companies are arguments that infrastructure provision should be either non-profit companies or government.

GTA has lousier CS, but only because MCV bugs out more so the CS gets more practice and attention.

SomeGuy can regale you with tales from his days as a code monkey intern at GTA.

I'll ask, when he comes back.

I discovered they had no idea whether or not they were, or should be, distributing entirely insecure factory-default hardware to their clients.

I'm pretty sure we're on a black list somewhere by now.

"It's the guy who knows we're just reading off dialogue trees.... and has the dialogue trees!"

@BESW Given the incompetence of statement A, I'm sure statement B is effectively meaningless.

Yes.

I actually managed to get copies of all of their Internet-related CS documentation printouts when we first got the Internet account.

I'm just imagining you phoning someone up and saying "ACDADAFGGA and now we're at the box you can type my problem into - here's the details:"

I wish they could follow that.

@BESW It's possible someone was being clever and helpful by giving you enough info to actually deal with a corporate monstrosity that refused to improve.

"Umm. Tony isn't here right now?"

Unfortunately, the world is broken and there are very few Tonys in the world.

We have a list of them.

Most of them move to work for the competition within a year.

@BESW Not surprising, really.

So, my two DFRPG players right now are looking at being a trickster changeling who starts out with a ton of Refresh and buys powers as he goes, and.... a pure mortal neighborhood handyman.

Back, and back to my own topic, how selfish. How about... Directed? Or even "Directed ...". Directed D&D, Directed FATE?

(The trickster's probably going to be go the potions route, for maximum "I can do whatever the heck I want.")

@Magician ding

Or generically, "Directed Addendum"?

@BESW Sounds good. What's the handyman's concept and trouble?

@SimonGill Don't know yet.

@Magician Since it's an overlay, that's a good idea. More useful for traditional games without a plot meta-currency though.

The player's reading the books and wants to take inspiration from the never-seen Mike the Mechanic. Speculating on a mortal handyman who specializes in Not Asking Questions of the local talent.

@BESW The books are still on my list (after the Jordan epic ends).

@SimonGill It is. Will test it next week on DRYH/Portal crossover I've been working on. Cause what else to test it on but on another test...

@Magician Who needs fair and scientific testing? :P

@SimonGill Aperture Science sure doesn't!

@BESW would a mortal handyman be able to, er, participate in the game?

@Magician Yes! DFRPG actually makes that very a balanced option.

By being a Pure Mortal (being able to take Stunts but no Powers) you get an extra two Refresh to spend.

@Magician Definitely. Pure Mortals get vast numbers of FATE Points to start with, where a wizard only gets 1 or 2.

So you either get more cool little stuff, or more FATE points, than a wizard, at the cost of not having the magicky goodness.

Interesting

There's a bit in the GM part of the book about how to make enemies balanced for mortal, supernatural, or mixed teams.

Pelor's Sun Blessing says "If you deal damage to a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to your Wisdom or Constitution modifier, whichever is higher." and Cleave says "and an enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes damage equal to your Strength modifier." If the secondary target of cleave has radiant vulnerability, does it take extra damage from Pelor's Sun Blessing?

sounds right

Pelor's Sun Blessing is at the heart of several very cheesy builds.

4e distinguishes between "deal damage" and "roll damage"

Well, my concern here is between "deals damage" and "takes damage"

I don't think that's a mechanical distinction in 4e.

Cleave doesn't say "you deal damage equal to your Strength modifier to an enemy adjacent to you other than the target"

They're more concerned with "rolls" or not.

x deals damage to y and y takes damage from x are equivalent statements.

I know I've seen the trick used in various builds that should have had due diligence.

So in the case of Shackles of Justice, which says "Whenever the target deals damage, it takes 2d6 radiant damage (save ends)." If you hit yourself with it, then hit yourself again, do you take infinite damage?

I believe there's an explicit rule that no ability can trigger itself.

But that's irrelephant here.

Well if two Paladins hit each other with Shackles of Justice, does it cascade?

That's 2d6 (save ends).

Which means it's an effect that doesn't deal damage until the start of your next turn, AND it's an effect which cannot be applied more than once from a source of the same name.

@Soulrift Good question.

Hmm. I may have misread. I'd need to see the whole power in context.

Oh, that's an interesting distinction. Is the whole effect (you take 2d6 damage when you deal damage) save ends, or do you take ongoing damage when you deal damage?

@BESW Isn't the (save ends) for the whole effect?

wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/power.aspx?id=7263

I shall read!

I think it's for the whole effect, because it doesn't say "you take 2d6 ongoing damage"

yesssss. Disregard my above rambling. I shall craft a new and improved ramble!

@BESW Ramble ignored.

Okay, so whenever Rooster deals damage, he takes 2d6 damage. Whenever Ista deals damage, she takes 2d6 damage.

I also can't find the rule about powers triggering themselves. Hmm... shall research onwards.

Rooster hits Ista for damage. Rooster takes 2d6 damage from Ista's effect. Did Ista deal Rooster damage?

An effect that Ista created dealt Rooster damage. Thus, I think, Ista dealt Rooster damage. Must research!

Oh god... an edge case.

Also, would the various warlock powers that allow you to take damage in order to reroll an attack count as dealing damage to yourself for triggering something like Scales of Justice?

AUGH.

@BESW I'm inclined to agree that "any effect you create" is the qualifier for "dealing damage" it disagrees with current responses

@waxeagle I think you're missing a word there.

@Soulrift Okay. I have an awful sideways approach to this.

I tremble with anticipation.

Should we treat this effect as a triggered action?

Because if so this becomes really simple but probably underpowered: a triggered effect behaves like an immediate reaction unless otherwise stated, or if its effect makes no sense except as an interrupt.

And then you can rule on it from there, possibly including the "once per round" issue.

I don't think that's valid though.

But behaving like an immediate reaction doesn't make it an immediate action.

Like Warlock pact boons behave like immediate reactions but don't use up your immediate action.

Right. So I'm pretty sure it's not valid. But it's a place to start.

I'm of the mind that the power must explicitly state "immediate action/reaction/interrupt" for it to count as the once-per-round action.

I'm inclined to agree.

@BESW I'd limit it to 1/turn

I think the behavior is meant to differentiate between interrupt and reaction: if Shackles of Justice were an interrupt, you could kill a creature and prevent the damage from being delt.

So the default here is "treat it like a reaction" as in "the damage happens after the trigger condition" which helps us put a sequence on things but leaves us with the infinite regression cycle thingie.

@waxeagle As a GM in the heat of battle I'd say if a daily is a save ends effect which deals damage when the target does, it's probably intended for a multi-attack solo.

@BESW that's a good point

and we are talking about L16 or so

(And against a solo, it's not going to last long...)

L9

@Soulrift so we're not even dealing with a potential morninglord situation here...

You have to assume that against a solo it's probably only going to last 1 round, so presumably you want more than 2d6 damage out of it.

@waxeagle Yet

Well, you could conceivably still have the power at 16? :)

@Soulrift true

even so that's what, 17ish damage/attack?

@wa

err yeah

Ongoing damage for solos, ugh... I'd say about 7+ 7*(1/4), further turns can be ignored as average goes to zero very quickly. so about 8.

So it really comes down to "if you create an effect that deals damage, do YOU deal that damage"

That seems reasonable.

But @waxeagle said something that made it sound like many it's not in line with current CS thought?

Perhaps rules for zones can help? Creating damaging zones is a fairly common power effect.

Wall of Thorns states " If a creature enters the wall’s space or starts its turn there, that creature takes 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier damage" so there's "takes damage" and "your modifier" and if there's a "you" then "you" have to be dealing it, right?

Suuuure, in a system that wasn't as uptight and rules-lawyery as 4e.

lol

Not strictly speaking, but I'd say that in general yes, if your effect deals damage, you've dealt damage.

As a GM at the table in a battle I'd rule "yes," but then I'd hit the books afterward.

4e could really use a rules revision with standardized language.

I'm astonished they managed as well as they have.

It is rather good, actually.

I mean, yes. There are plenty of times when I wish they'd standardize a bit more, especially going back to the early powers and re-writing them to reflect modern language.

@BESW just current thought on the question, I have no knowledge of wizards CS stands

I think I've got an answer in the site about that, actually....

I think it's rather good until you get down to quirky niggly language like whether or not "dealing" and "taking" is basically the same thing. On the surface, it seems like they should be but then there's issues like Shackles.

[grumble grumble]

haha yeah

I thought Essentials was supposed to make mechanics easier.

And the ambiguity of "move"... is it a "move" action or a "walk" action

magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/directed wooo

executive summary please? :)

@Soulrift System-neutral snap-on rules module for a collaborative version of FATE's "invoke for effect" mechanic.

First paragraph or two (if you're asking me) ;)

@BESW thanks! I was confused by big words!

Oh, sorry, I was frightened off by scary words before the sentence "Don’t worry, all these scary words will be explained."

Hahahah, it's there for a reason :)

I wonder if the Shackles of Justice 2d6 would trigger Pelor's Sun Blessing: "If you deal damage to a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to your Wisdom or Constitution modifier, whichever is higher."

Oh, wait, I asked that already.

Yes, we think it would.

I'll take that answer to bed with me then, because my brain is clearly well on its way to shutting down for the night. Thanks all :)

ta ta for now.

G'night

Heh. One player already has four DFRPG PCs he wants to try.

Changeling, Red Court Infected, sorcerer, and Pure Mortal "luckiest man on earth" with Fate points out his ears.

I've just realised that I've been conflating Big Model and GNS concepts for years...

doesn't one just build on the concepts of another?

Sorta - but thinking that the stances are somewhere in GNS aren't helpful for actually understanding things.

@SimonGill Heheh.

My understanding is that TBM was designed on the realization that GNS was woefully insufficient, but GNS survives in forums and debates because it's easier and simpler to talk about.

Also, GNS labels people and things. Anything which invokes tribalism tends to survive longer in mainstream thinking.

How anthropological of you.

I'm not sure invokes is the right word there. Encourages, maybe?

"smacks of"

That fits too.

@Magician "Creativity leads to the Dark Side" and creativity makes for the best cookies too :)

Dear client: Rusty fire escapes do not make for exciting 1930s poster motifs.

@SimonGill you have to sprinkle chocolate chips in a pleasing pattern

@Magician If by "pleasing" you mean "abstruse."

[chants] "C" is for "Cultist," worships Things in the sea!

rassa-frassing gravatar login, grrr.

I'd leave a good comment, but blah at dodgy accounts.

Hmmm. You don't need to log in, just put down some email address and name.

@SimonGill Dodgy Accounts [-1]: Can use Deceit for physical defense rolls, and Accountancy for mental defense rolls.

@Magician My usual e-mail address is bound to gravatar and that's demanidng a login :/ I guess I can use a seperate one and not bind my image to it.

=/. Didn't know it did that.

Don't worry about it - I think the problem is a conflict between my wordpress and gravatar accounts.

Guess who is drunk?

@SimonGill Approved, replied. Thank you for commenting over there, it makes it seem less like I'm talking to myself in a dark room :)

I got something of a reputation as an aggressively proactive player in college.

Talking down the angry elves so we could go look at their library, grabbing the MacGuffin from the monologuing villain (even I was surprised that one worked).

Your bit at the end about the GM phrasing Questions so as to nudge the story could support its own post, I think.

@BESW Probably. I'd like to actually run a few games with it first, though, to see in practice how things work out.

And now, to whore it out to the interwebs in all the places I can find

@Magician Well, it's in my Buffer to go out to Facebook and Twitter later. Shame that there's not many people listening there.

I'll drop the link into my RPG Skype chat, like I did with Goblin Dice a bit ago.

Hehe, thank you both :)

You're welcome. It's cool stuff.

Let me know if you get significant feedback, if you don't mind. Since people are much more likely to comment in a skype channel or on facebook than in the actual post.

Mmm. My main provider of such commentary is offline right now.

Will do.

The Goblin Dice article just got disgusted agreement on the ridiculousness of a campaign hinging on a single roll.

It explains why Let It Ride isn't popular in Goblin Dice systems.

@SimonGill You mean in the systems themselves or among players of the systems?

Well, it's a player/GM thing really. More about the level of detail brought up during a scene. Systems that use Let It Ride suggest that "Steal The Sword From The Goblin King" is one roll - whereas systems with Goblin Dice mechanics will give you many chances to get closer to your final goal without really letting you fail.

Worse, they will have you fail, as failing a stealth check is not the same as failing to hit a goblin. You don't exactly get to roll again next round.

Hmm.

That's almost exactly the opposite way I would've said it.

I mean, we wound up in the same place.

But then you can use running away checks/combat to get closer to achieving the scene-long goal.

I would say that systems which use Let It Ride use narrative as a measure of granularity, while Goblin Dice systems use action description as a measure of granularity.

That is, a Goblin Dice system will call for a single roll if you describe "Steal the Sword from the Goblin King" as a singular action, but will call for a near-infinite number of rolls if you describe the process of doing so.

But a Let It Ride system will use rolls proportionally to the importance of the action's success or failure to the story.

My point was, Goblin Dice systems can use Let it Ride but the swingy nature of the dice makes it less satisfying.

Am I totally misunderstanding Let It Ride?

Hmmm. So in a Goblin Dice system, the amount of rolls is determined by GM and player deciding on the granularity of their approach. And because basic rules of such systems describe a single check as a single action, there will be lots of checks

Systems that encourage Let It Ride tend to be a bit more predicatable.

@SimonGill Agreed. It doesn't feel earned either way.

@Magician I think so.

I've used this to my advantage on many occasions, as a player and GM, by describing an action to achieve the number and kind of rolls I wanted to apply to it.

It's the kind of thing that would drive Zachiel to distraction.

Hmm.

Compare the same two-part action in FATE and D&D 3.5 or 4e: Bluff to gain advantage, then use that advantage to slice the target with your sword.

Both systems call for two rolls on the part of the attacker, and provide a bonus to the second roll based on the success of the first.

@BESW One is part of the core system - the other is a subsystem for one particular skill.

Or have I missed something?

@SimonGill Very true.

You can narrate them identically.

"I shout, 'Look, it's Abraham Lincoln!' and stab at him while he's distracted."

Hmmm. There is something here. Rambling ahead. A goblin die determines the next few seconds. A scene die determines the whole scene, and can therefore crop up in the middle of it, replacing a goblin die at any point. Killing a goblin is a goblin die, but killing a goblin that's about to blow up the cave with the party in it is a scene die. This can be further extended to what determines outcome of an adventure or a story arc, but that probably shouldn't be dice.

An argument can be made that that's where fate points come in, but in reality they'd probably be used for tactical advantage, not reserved for resolving the scene

@Magician True, but in DFRPG at least the system is designed so that the party will have more Fate points in an important scene.

@Magician What determines the outcome should be choices. What choice does a character make and what are the consequences of that?

@Magician FATEs game is about who controls the narrative - not necessarily about how good a character is.

@SimonGill Yup. Which is where bargaining and consequences and "yes, but" comes in - all mechanics for scene dice

A well-crafted FATE scene die will allow more tactical advantage because more Aspects will relate to it.

A scene die should have more potential for control.

@Magician Good plan. Multiple dice (ie. Normal distribution of probabilities) + tweaking mechanics should create a useful mechanic for determining how scenes progress.

@BESW I really really really need to play FATE, is what you're saying, to avoid reinventing it.

@Magician Wise.

I'm still considering when's a good time to offer a play-by-chat game of FATE Core.

@SimonGill I'm in!

I was actually going to ask you if we could do a sample fight some time before the end of the month.

@BESW Sounds like fun.

Yes! But not before the middle of the month.

This poster is due on the 14th, and I'm really scratching the walls on it.

It went from 1930s walkup to Kristallnacht after the client's latest changes.

It sounds like you have plenty of stories for Clients From Hell.

Honestly not.

clientsfromhell.net

They aren't malicious or vindictive, just... clueless and overeager?

When your graphic designer makes a memebase face at your suggestion, please reconsider it.

Whereas RPG players quickly learn to recognize a GM's "Are you sure?" clients do not.

@BESW That's what most of the CFH stories are - people who just don't have the knowledge or don't think to apply it before they open their mouths.

yeah, well.

I try not to have that kind of antagonistic relationship with my clients.

It's frustrating, but we're both trying to achieve the same goal.

And [paraphrasing badly] it is only through the clash of opinions that the truth can be revealed.

Still, rusty black metal + broken glass.

And the woman behind the glass is going to have dark features.

Please don't make me go there, director.

hehe

Hey, my player who's leaving at the end of the month is hoping to find a group and run a game himself in Cali.

I told him, "Ask your players what happens next sometimes." He looked shocked, then grinned widely.

@Magician Make of that what you will.

Okay, popping off to meet a client. Ta!

@BESW I am shocked! grin

See you later :)

Oh my goodnes

Clients from hell is just too good