TRPG General Chat

somori

03:02

I must be misremembering something from older versions.

Novian

Id get screwed if I wore anything heavier than light armor.

somori

@Novian How so?

Novian

Nonproficiency

it does stuff....

I forget what,

somori

Force screen is the one you probably want - that gives you a shield bonus.

Novian

right because like bonuses dont stack.

I could see if mithral armor is within my starting wealth.

somori

03:06

@Novian yeah

Novian

probably is.

might help me gain a slightly better armor rating, then use sheild bonuses.

somori

@Novian Or you could just buy a better shield

Novian

indeed.

somori

It's not like you need to buya weapon, after all.

Novian

hmm. your right,

I always buy one just in case.

or I could do the nuts thing and do something crazy like wearing Dwarven mountain plate.

I care not for your armor non proficiency

as long as I dont get close I shouldent get screwed by Dex and str skill checks.

lol but that isnt smart

somori

03:13

@Novian No. Especially since there will be streams or canals nearby.

BESW

I know a lot of players who claim to have good or bad luck with dice, or particular dice, or what-have-you. I've only met one I believed.

Novian

hmm, Armor would go a long way twoard protecting me though. something lighter would be in order.

BESW

@Novian I believe there are modifications like quick-release straps, or summoned armor that you can dismiss with a small action.

Novian

yes probably

I cannot remember about summoned armor.

however if there is such an armor enhancement i could use any armor

Holy crap

its cheap

+2000gp

BESW

Which did you find?

Novian

03:19

not even a +1 or 2 just flat 2000

Called

BESW

That maaaaay not work for you.

It's for instant-on, not instant-off.

Novian

ah yes

there was another I think

BESW

I'm quite sure there's a non-magical armor modification called something like quickstraps.

Novian

yes

BESW

Takes longer to put the armor on, but one tug and it falls off.

(Enemies need to make Sleight of Hand to do it to you.)

Novian

03:21

Called is instant so straps = quick off.

BESW

I just can't remember where it was published.

somori

@BESW And falls to the bottom of the ocean...

Novian

Races of Stone

@somori Called

I call it to me as long as its on the same plane

I thought there was an armor that could be walked into and out of.

somori

Yeah, but only if you've thought about that. Anybody just using quickstraps is in for a world of D'oh.

BESW

@Novian Where in RoS?

Novian

03:23

@BESW Equipment section for quick straps

BESW

@Novian I've found quick-donning straps.

Novian

158

ah not what you are looking for eh. my bad wrong thing

BESW

Ahah.

Arms & Equipment Guide, which I think is technically 3.0.

Novian

eh?

works in 3.5

BESW

Page 16, Quick-Escape.

Novian

03:29

usually

BESW

+300g modification to any masterwork or better armor.

Novian

Sooo +1 Called Mountain Plate with Quick Escape modification = Tower of armor.

BESW

Takes twice the time to put on, but you can make it fall away cleanly as a standard action. DC 30 Disable Device to have someone do it to you during combat, DC 15 if you're sleeping in it or something.

somori

@Novian Technically, a walking pillbox.

Novian

hmm. Still dont think Mountain plate is neccesary but it does give me an idea for a separate character.

@BESW holy crap.

@somori oh yeah I am the Psionic Artillery

why do I think Im understanding why Dan does what he does.

BESW

03:32

@Novian [blink]

Novian

Im getting the urge to blast things uncontrollably

somori

@Novian More machine gun emplacement. Really good at holding a spot, not so good at fast response.

Novian

no.

not at all. But I MAKE THINGS GO BOOM

and as far as I can tell I make no rolls for powers that relate to STR or DEX

not with blast powers.

Evil Grin

BESW

@somori Sounds like the kind of build that's just asking to be abused a little more with Unearthed Arcana flaws.

somori

@BESW Oh? What kind of abuse are you thinking of?

BESW

03:35

@somori "Yes, my speed is 2.5' in this armor. But have you seen how many feats I have?"

somori

Well, considering Psionic Body and Extra Power Points, that could be very dangerous.

Novian

Psionic Body?

somori

+2hp per Psionic Feat you take.

it's a middling option

BESW

cheeeeeese

Novian

DO I or DONT I

hmm

Cheese or plain.

somori

03:37

@Novian Probably not.

Novian

lesse level 7 3 feats.

BESW

"Are you a dwarven defender?"
"No, I'm a wilder."
"but...."

Novian

@BESW BUT NOTHING I AM ARE DA BEST

BESW

According to the flaw suggestions in UA, the most your DM should grant is 3. Which doubles your feats.

somori

@BESW Is that one feat per flaw?

BESW

03:39

(2 at first level and 1 every five levels after that.)

Novian

yes

BESW

@somori yes

Novian

@BESW 2 what?

somori

Not quite as silly as I thought then.

BESW

@Novian flaws

And thus feats

Unearthed Arcana 91.

Novian

03:41

hmm I know the flaws. its just what to take in order to not kill myself if any

BESW

I... had a tendency to make characters who were crippled, half-blind, and squishy as tissue paper.

Novian

Frail, Murky eyed, and ?

BESW

Slow: Your base land speed is halved (round down to nearest multiple of 5).

Novian

so 15/2 is 5

if in the mountain plate

lol

BESW

Base land speed, not land speed after armor penalties.

What's your unarmored speed?

Novian

03:42

oh yes,

30

somori

@BESW It's fine. We'll load you into the mountain plate and mount you on a cart.

BESW

Then it's 15, and what's the mountain plate's penalty?

Novian

if base is 30 its 15

20 ft its 10

BESW

From the table it looks like it halves your speed (30 -> 15, 20 -> 10)

Novian

half of 15 from that flaw would make it 7.5

BESW

03:44

So welcome to walking. [whistles Blind Guardian's Welcome to Dying]

You have a speed of 5.

Novian

I.E 5

Armor Enhancements needed.

BESW

Well, it's only in combat.

somori

@Novian Who cares? Just get some horse to pull you around.

Novian

oh yes I can get out.

MWAHAHAHAHAH

BESW

You give the armor to the strongest PC to lug around.

Novian

03:45

@somori You know your cheesing it up now right?

BESW

Combat: eeeeek! [chunkthunkthunk] Okay, I'm good.

Novian

mwahahaha.

BESW

After combat: So... heavy.... [*reeeek*clatterslamthud] Here, carry these.

Novian

hmm might want to use a mount in combat or make the armor out of mithral to lighten it.

BESW

What poor belabored mount do you expect to deal with a sudden +227-lbs weight gain during an ambush?

somori

03:48

@Novian Why? It's a great tactic. In fact, the Brotherhood of the Golden Skull would happily help you work it into a usable doctrine.

BESW

Also, you may be air-droppable.

Novian

@somori the who or what now?

@BESW what why?

somori

@BESW I was amused to see that it was actually a neophant that got that treatment (sooooo many comics....)

Novian

@somori Explain

somori

@Novian The BotGS is a group of PCs from a 4thed campaign. They were designed to be easy for a very new DM to run adventures for. Basic thought pattern is "THere's some plot. Let's do it."

BESW

03:50

@Novian Sorry, it's reflex. My first D&D group conditioned me to evaluate the air-droppability of EVERYTHING. My second group then regularly air-dropped a level 30 dwarven defender in lieu of digging, because digging is hard but flying three miles up and dropping a guy isn't.

Novian

@BESW he didnt die?

BESW

@Novian He was a level 30 dwarven defender and 3.5 has a hard cap on falling damage.

somori

The group can really be summed in one exchange. NPC: "Surrender or I'll kill the hostage" Me: "So, what are you going to do after you kill him?"

Novian

lesse 225 lbs + body weight + other equiment = missle

BESW

We had to drop him twice to get to the mysterious labyrinth of mechanical dragonwyrms below the streets of the devil's New York.

somori

03:53

@BESW And now you're reminding me of the rocket-dwarf powered moosile that ended the Age of Sorrows and started the second age in one of my Fair Folk games.

BESW

@somori Please tell me a moosile is what I hope it is.

@somori You've been Schlocking?

somori

Well, when you have full and total control of reality - you can make a missle out of a moose and power it with hundreds of rocket-powered dwarves.

@BESW Yep. Pretty much all I've been doing since Sunday. Been hard to resist dropping quotes in here!

Novian

Ill be back later

BESW

@somori Sounds like the time a gnome tinkerer from a more advanced dimension took a clan of soviet dwarves (all dwarves in my campaigns are Russian; it makes more sense) and grafted them with lightning-powered magipunk wings. Get enough of them together and they could do the shocker lizard trick, but with a different decimal location on the dice count.

@Novian ttfn

@somori One of the oldest continuous webcomics in existence.

somori

@BESW I've noticed.

BESW

03:57

...the evil elven empire's armada of airships never stood a chance.

mxyzplk

@BESW treating any RPG ruleset as a NP-complete legal document. It's pointless and IMO actively harmful to the hobby. It's valueless pedantry. 3.5e/Pathfinder got suckered into it by listening to people crying "we need more rules coverage for X! Now for Y!" and now it gives the impression that if there's not rules for taking a dump, you can't do it.

Obsessing over RAW past the level where common sense kicks in has never and will never add a single iota of enjoyment to real play sessions.

BESW

@mxyzplk Pretty sure I'm not talking about that.

@mxyzplk Well that's just not reading the books; the manuals are quite clear about the improvisational nature of the game and the need for a DM who can adjudicate.

mxyzplk

The only value to realizing monks aren't explicitly listed as proficient with punches, for example, is at the Zen level of "oh maybe I shouldn't be expecting the rules to describe the blazingly obvious".

KRyan

or of realizing that the companies producing the rules are fallable

or because it's amusing

BESW

@KRyan Which is not trivial for people who start RPing in video games, or with tabletop rulesets that try to be complete.

mxyzplk

04:06

The thing is, they don't try to be complete. They've just given people too much of what they've asked for over time. Now people foolishly assume they should be complete.

BESW

@mxyzplk I disagree. Realizing monks aren't explicitly listed as proficient with punches should immediately create the need for a non-trivial decision about what to do: abandon the system? houserule it? try to play within the RAW? these may seem like intuitive ideas to many of us, but it's not a universal truth.

KRyan

@mxyzplk or maybe, the lack of Monk's proficiency is a valid criticism of a game system that has claimed to cover this stuff.

it never claimed to cover combat

everything*

it did claim to cover combat, and the Monk class

and it failed to do so

Paizo failed to do so spectacularly

mxyzplk

I contend that if it's a nontrivial decision for you... You may need larger scale help.

KRyan

and when you consider that this problem was brought up repeatedly during Paizo's publicity stunt, it might make you realize something about the company you're dealing with

Novian

hmm how would you decide the price of Mountain Plate for purposes of making it mithral

mxyzplk

04:09

and @KRyan that's only true if one expects a game company to define a successful game as one that does everything including wipe your little lips clean of gruel.

KRyan

because I'll be blunt: Paizo is staffed with ignorant, narrow-minded, unprofessional idiots, who are utterly incapable of accepting or responding to criticism, and are utterly convinced their every utterance is not just the law of the game, but obviously and clearly the only sensible way things could be

mxyzplk

Expecting 100% completion in a game is folly.

KRyan

to be more blunt, @mxyzplk, you are exceedingly quick to judge people based on your perception of their relationship with RAW. No one plays 100% strict RAW; it's literally impossible, but you're pretty quick to assume that people A. are doing so, and B. are having badwrongfun that is "actively harmful to the hobby." You are extremely antagonistic towards those you have so judged. I don't know about the hobby as a whole, but that's certainly "actively harmful" to this web site.

mxyzplk

We are all apparently entitled to our own ridiculously unfounded and arrogant opinions in chat.

KRyan

because, surprise surprise, we start discussing the RAW and you start with the insults yet again

BESW

04:11

@KRyan Although points for 'shmoo.' Sincerely.

Novian

is this one of those things we shouldnt talk about like alignment?

mxyzplk

BESW called me over to chat to continue discussion about it. I told him what I think, you had to jump in to sharpen whatever paizo-hatchet you have.

KRyan

just as you have every other time the subject has come up to my knowledge

BESW

@KRyan Yeah, I thought 'shmoo' was an indicator that if this conversation had any potential, it sure wasn't in the comments of some poor guy's simple question.

mxyzplk

Ah, someone with strong opinions set in their ways, I can see how you might find that alien and unfriendly <rolls eyes>

BESW

04:14

If there's going to be a conversation, rather than a flamewar, I'd love to discuss why trying to understand a game's foundation might be harmful to fun.

If there's going to be insults rather than discussion of theory or experience, I'm out.

KRyan

don't worry, I'm already done

mxyzplk

Anyway, @BESW, the fact that the decision of what to do about the monk not being listed as knowing how to punch might cause a nontrival crisis of rules-faith is a problem that has to be solved not by patching the rules, but by patching the approach to the rules.

KRyan

there's no real point in arguing with a mod

Novian

Ill take my leave until this has cooled down.

mxyzplk

@KRyan mods are participants on the site too. If you think we are some paid cadre of people that should just sit back and do nothing but impartial busywork, you misunderstand the SE format. We don't let personal opinion influence our mod decisions, but we also participate fully in the site with our own playstyles and opinions and questions and answers.

BESW

04:17

@KRyan I trust @mxyzplk not to abuse his mod hat unless and until I see him do otherwise.

mxyzplk

@BESW which is what drives my point. The sheer fact that we try to treat RAW as complete or important is what causes people to actually have issues at that point instead of just ruling common sense and moving on, which is what makes real games run.

BESW

@mxyzplk Okay, so I'm interested in examining the RAW and seeing where it can be fixed but leaving it alone where it's not broke. That's my current approach to the rules (not one I've always had), based on what I perceive as the need of my current group to have a reliable standard letting them know what to expect.

mxyzplk

@BESW which is fine within limits. But it's a neverending chase to a false goal when it goes down every single exception path and every combination of stuff. "What if I'm underwater on the elemental plane of fire, what then, I need rules to tell me..."

BESW

@mxyzplk I do not try to treat the RAW as complete, never said I did. I think that if it weren't important, however, we'd be running free-form games with rules of our own choosing.

*of our own invention

mxyzplk

The real world isn't deterministic. Therefore your actions in a game shouldn't be deterministic. It's a computer-game expectation to have complete foreknowledge of all the rules at hand. As long as your character isn't more unsure about what will work than a player is in the real world, it's all good.

BESW

04:21

By specifying a [dnd-3.5] or [dresden-files] tag in a question, the participant is giving a framework for the answer he wants. His group said "we want a game that uses these rules," which set forth an attitude, philosophy, and context for their structured play.

mxyzplk

The reductio ad absurdum of that is needing rules to take a dump, however. I feel that there's another option to fixing RAW which is pruning it. The only thing wrong with Pathfinder is that 1/3 to 1/2 of its rules page count should be deleted. (same with 3.5, but there more like 3/4 should be deleted).

somori

@mxyzplk Deleted and reorganised. If you can build the useful specific rules from general principles, then those general principles should be the rules instead.

BESW

@mxyzplk I can see it would be a lot of fun to play in one of your campaigns, but I don't think my group would like the uncertainty. Computer games aren't the only games with rules. I wouldn't go onto a basketball court if I thought someone else could shoot me without penalty, and I wouldn't play cards if I didn't know how many of each suit were in the deck.

mxyzplk

There's a broad space between "no rules" and "infinite rules." The contention you seem to make is that if there's not loads of explicit rules for everything it might as well be freeform. There's 1000 games on the market and 998 of them have less rules than D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.

BESW

@mxyzplk But my group chose D&D 4e, and the guy whose question this started in chose 3.5. That indicates a choice about the kind of game they want to play.

If we were playing a game with fewer rules, we'd be more comfortable with ad-hoc rulings because that's the philosophy we chose to play under.

mxyzplk

04:25

And that's the problem. If we treated poker like D&Ders treat rules, then the Board & Card Games SE would be full of "well the rules don't say I can't have another deck of cards on the table" or "these rules don't say whether I have to put my cards down close edge first or far edge first I CAN'T PLAY THIS SHIT"

BESW

@mxyzplk Actually I'm pretty sure Hoyle has some strong words on stray decks of cards, but that's neither here nor there.

Please don't read the extremism you've encountered in the past into my statements.

It's easy to reduce everything to extreme positions and I'm doing my best not to.

mxyzplk

Sure. I'm just saying that in my experience, whether you're playing low rules or high rules, expecting 100% complete rules coverage is a vain hope, and that in fact striving for it ends up taking a lot of effort that has zero to do with players enjoying the game.

BESW

Even Calvinball has one rule, and you have to understand it intimately if you want to play the game. For RPGs I feel like I have to study the RAW to know where my chosen game system is trying to go, so I can help it get there by --if I may use your very apt metaphor-- pruning it.

@mxyzplk I got over that expectation after a thorough reading of the DMG before my first session, and I'm doing my best not to be insulted that you assume someone interested in RAW must be unable to make that leap. I'm sure you've had some very trying experiences with that attitude in the past.

mxyzplk

Sure, read and understand the RAW. But don't take it too seriously. It's like any other field of knowledge. There are many inconsistencies and dilemmas that don't exist for some deep wise reason, they just are.

Heh, yeah some of those experiences were about 15 minutes ago :-)

BESW

The RAW is the only communication I have with the developers of the game I want to play, and in that sense it is very important. That statement should have no implications that it is gospel; we frequently joke in my group that Wizards' development team is on crack.

But we sift through the RAW because it is the guidebook for our chosen medium of play, and we want to play D&D, not BESW&D.

(At least as much as we can without it not being fun; RAW can get very unfun if you let it.)

@mxyzplk If I may offer some input based on very recent personal experience, I admire your ability to separate your mod duties from your personal participation on this site. But the mod tag is still there and this colors peoples' responses to your actions regardless of which hat you may feel you're wearing at the time.

mxyzplk

04:34

Well, but what is your point then? This came up in the context of the monk not begin explicitly listed with unarmed proficiency. In that case, following RAW is clearly dumb. And in the larger context of the other questions on unarmed attacks/natural attacks, people are using that section of rules which clearly doesn't value completeness as justification for all kinds of bizarre "oh all animals should get to attack their natural attacks and then unarmed too!" constructions.

BESW

(No advice to offer, just an observation I thought might be useful)

mxyzplk

I think perhaps there's a difference between "understanding RAW,as much as it can be", which you're advocating, and "playing strict RAW," which I contend is impossible and undesirable.

BESW

@mxyzplk I don't have any opinions on how people should or should not approach the RAW, except that it should be good for their group. On this site, people quickly learn to specify "please cite RAW when possible" or "speculation is all I expect to get" or whatever when they ask questions.

@mxyzplk That is, indeed, my point in a nutshell.

mxyzplk

well, that's the value of the site though. It's not all about the questioner. Often questioners put qualifiers on their questions that may or may not be prudent, and answers can challenge those - and community votes work independently of answer acceptance.

BESW

@mxyzplk Yeah, I admire this site's structure and the way the rules are built to very specifically reward desired behavior and limit inappropriate actions.

But part of that is not getting upset if someone tells me that my answer just didn't address their question.

mxyzplk

04:42

sure

BESW

RPG players are not, inherently, a community with a common bond. It's like expecting people who like beans to all get along just because they like beans. I can say that I prefer to use salt when I cook them, but I really shouldn't call someone names because they think salt ruins the beans.

And if they ask for non-salt recipes and I give them a salt one, that's my right and theirs is to say "Gee, no thanks."

Now I gotta go pick up my car and salt some beans. Metaphorically speaking.

mxyzplk

OK, peace out

BESW

I'm glad we were able to talk about RAW analysis so constructively. Thank you, I am increasingly impressed with SE's ability to remain civil.

mxyzplk

Hugs

Novian

05:07

....ever want to cause bodily harm to a DM?

...Mines making me want to.

somori

Did he say you couldn't build a mobile artillery platform?

Novian

In our campaign We are Pirates (Generic I know.) and as captain apparently he ruled I GOTTA PAY HALF MY STARTING GOLD FOR the ship

I dont wanna be captain anymore.

to make my mobile artillery armor I need 7550. out of my 8500 that leaves me with 950gp.

somori

@Novian Yeah, that sounds a bit dodgy.

mxyzplk

To be fair, that's a problem solved by the end of the first session by some good old fashioned murder and plunder

Novian

...yeah I suppose

mxyzplk

05:11

I'm running a pirate campaign right now

They're up to two ships and about 40 crew

Novian

Im Artillery. I doubt Im suitable for captains duty anyway.

somori

@mxyzplk Yep. If the first adventure is steal a boat, it's all good.

Novian

@mxyzplk Wonder if I could match that with thralls.

somori

@Novian Captaincy is a leadership position, not based on other skills.

Novian

hmm.

mxyzplk

05:12

Well, money is just the nearest coastal village away...

somori

@mxyzplk Actually, this is Eberron. So it's the nearest sky-port away.

Novian

@somori Airships can raid ground targets. Especially with warforged monks and cannons

mxyzplk

Oh if it's airships even better. You don't prey on other sky-people, that would be too fair. Just go crap on some random hamlet and sell all their stuff

somori

@Novian First, you have to steal your sky-ship. More fun if you've taken it instead of buy.

Novian

@somori probably without the armor on....

Sneak in Mountain Plate is bad idea

somori

05:17

If you've taken Time Hop, then you can drop people out of time and then move the sky ship out from under them...

Novian

ah

hmm

havnt selected powers yet

Ive got 2 1st one of which is energy ray or whatever its called.

1 2nd and 1 3rd

somori

Time Hop is 3rd Level and looks pretty reasonable as a save-or-lose.

Novian

hmm and energy ray is decent enough to not need a better blasting power of 3rd level yet.

Especially if I understand Wild Surge right,

somori

Energy Wall is the better energy power at 3rd anyway

Novian

Time Hop Takes my third level
Energy ray takes one of my first

Any suggestions on a second level power?

Death urge is an expensive and mean Power.

Used on the right enemy and youve got a dead enemy

Combine with Deja Vu for funny.

somori

05:31

Mental Disruption - mass dazing effect with an expandable range

and expandable DC

Novian

in EPH the same power is listed twice

Deja Vu has two entries.

1 page apart

same text.

EPH is quirky

has range and area values. one of which is useless or contradictory.

somori

@Novian Yeah. it's nto a funny joke, but it's worth a smirk.

Novian

@somori Mental Disruption is good. Selective stun with expandable radius

I have a question about metaPsionics. are they an apply on the fly adjustment to a power or a before hand thing?

somori

They're like augments you can apply to every power you know. Some of them do need you to expend your psionic focus though.

Novian

so an on the fly type thing as long as you focused

you can but dont have to.

somori

05:42

yeah

Novian

the only thing left that I have to do.....is name the ship.

and somehow obtain a character sheet. My printer is broken.

somori

@Novian Meh, lined paper works well enough.

Novian

gotta sleep now gnight.

BESW

06:56

@Novian If this is Treasure Island We Are Pirates, I can see it; that's a gritty realistic setting where being a pirate is, ultimately, a pretty rotten deal. If it's Pirates of the Caribbean We Are Pirates, then it's a different kind of story altogether.

As an amusing quirk of RAW, in 3.5 it doesn't matter how much gravel you drop from how high; each stone weighs under a pound and thus falling gravel cannot deal damage.

(In my floating-islands campaign, of course, we devastated entire cities with gravel.)

somori

@BESW Sounds about right - ever watched the Mythbusters episode about a falling penny?

BESW

@somori No cable.

The looting was poor, so we considered a protection racket. "Gee, it'd sure be a shame if someone mass drivered a beach onto your lovely city."

....Then someone blew up our island.

I wonder why.

somori

That's no excuse when you have the internet :P youtube.com/watch?v=PHxvMLoKRWg

BESW

@somori And again, the monster Lack of Interest strikes.

(Not having cable changes what I'm interested in.)

somori

But explosions!

BESW

07:03

@somori I have some trouble with scripted reality.

It's a personal preference, but there it is.

somori

You do know they don't read off a script, right?

BESW

@somori [shrug]

[has bizarre and twisted predilections]

somori

Apparently so :P

BESW

It's not that I don't like them or have my nose in the air about their approach to the Holy Grail of Science (I think they're doing a good job educating people about the scientific method, in a rough kind of way). I just... eh.

Speaking of airships....

Dear space: never stop being awesome. apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap121204.html

BESW

07:56

In honor of sky pirates in the chat, today's word is a name:

Jean Lafitte

Jean Lafitte ( – ) was a French pirate and privateer in the Gulf of Mexico in the early 19th century. He and his elder brother, Pierre, spelled their last name Laffite, but English-language documents of the time used "Lafitte." The latter has become the commonly seen spelling in the United States, including for places named for him. Lafitte is believed to have been born either in France or the French colony of Saint-Domingue. By 1805, he operated a warehouse in New Orleans to help disperse the goods smuggled by his brother Pierre Lafitte. After the United States government passed the...

C. Ross

13:08

So, it's really cool when you're at the table and a rules question comes up, and someone does some research and starts showing me answers on RPG.SE. Gives me a great warm and fuzzy.

@BESW yeah, 3x is definitely not a rules only game

BESW

@C.Ross Even games with very strict unbendable rules are really about how you work within them, but RPGs (even the most rule-heavy ones) are definitely toward the other end of the spectrum.

C. Ross

@BESW depends on the game and the players, but ... D&D started as a game with a lot of room for "creative interpretation" to put it mildly, and 3.X only changed that so much

BESW

@C.Ross I'm passingly familiar with the older versions, but I started with 3.5 and only have extensive experience with 3.5 and 4e.

C. Ross

@BESW I haven't really played them myself, but if you read the works of those times, and talk to the grognards you can clearly tell from the culture that it wasn't that way

BESW

My groups like the feeling that there are rules to fall back on for most situations, and that for situations the RAW doesn't cover (or covers poorly), it still provides a strong sense of how things should be ruled, philosophically (realistically, or for the best game balance, or what have you).

C. Ross

13:16

@BESW The rules are a common framework for us. Usually if we pull away from them it's for speed or simplicity.

BESW

We've tried some more freeform games, and while some members of the group like them the overall trend is toward strong balance with lots of fiddly bits, and we accept that fiddly bits mean the balance and consistency will suffer and need to be compensated for at the table.

C. Ross

Though I'm really looking forward to my Diaspora game though. The rules are nice and open, but still firm enough to adjudicate fairly.

@BESW what do you consider more freeform?

BESW

I expect my group membership to change drastically in the next few months--people leaving island--and my group's needs (and thus my questions on this site) will change with it.

@C.Ross Freeform may not be the right word, but.... um.

Games where the mechanics are less fiddly and more generalized so the party has to fill in the action with more creative narration. Dogs in the Vineyard and My Life With Master have both been tried.

This group, right now, prefers to have more granular mechanics so they can fall back on them when the narrative flags.

Less granular mechanics usually require much more intense narrative improv, and sometimes you just want to kick an orc in the face. Our favorite sessions are the ones with nothing but RP, but we can't maintain that energy all the time.

@C.Ross I've got one particular player who loves rules. He approaches PC creation like making a Magic: the Gathering deck.

C. Ross

@BESW yeah, those happen

meeting time, later

BESW

Which is great, and a lot of fun actually, but sometimes I have to remind him that if I adjudicate a rule in the middle of a game I'll do it in favor of fun --but if I'm pressed to make a general ruling outside of the session, I'll rule in favor of balance.

I guess I feel very strongly that there is no wrong way to play an RPG provided you and your group are safe and happy doing it. There can be not as intended and not in accordance with theory and not traditional and all kinds of other criticisms that all boil down to not the way I want to play. But if I'm not in the group I've got no right to say it's a wrong way to play.

This makes sites like this very challenging to run, and I'm constantly impressed by it.

Martin Sojka

13:31

@BESW Oh, but there are wrong ways to play. Anything which has a good chance to (psychologically or physically) harm participants or bystanders is wrong, and possibly illegal.

BESW

@MartinSojka Then I will amend my above statement to "provided you and your group and the people around you are safe and happy."

Martin Sojka

That's why LARP organisers take weapon checks very seriously. :)

BESW

I think any discussion of how to play a game should contain a tacit understanding that physical and psychological damage (and probably property damage) should be avoided.

If the context (like LARPing) requires it be explicit, I'll whole-heartedly endorse that and simply be slightly sad it was necessary.

Martin Sojka

I organised one LARP ... you'd be surprised how many people don't get it ... or just have not enough imagination. :)

BESW

When I was trained to work with kids and youth, the first question was always "are they safe?"

It applies to other situations too. As a DM, if they're safe, then I try to make them happy, and then we worry about rules and theory and balance and so forth.

Because it all boils down to having a safe and happy group. That is the ultimate goal and duty of everyone at the table, though the DM shoulders more of that responsibility than is strictly fair.

@MartinSojka I cannot imagine running a LARP. My hat off to you, good sir or unusually-monikered madam, for shouldering that responsibility.

Martin Sojka

13:39

@BESW It was fun, but also so much work I only did it once. People who manage to run big LARPs for decades - those are the heroes (and quite possibly insane).

BESW

@MartinSojka My current group does its best to make fun of LARPers because it's cool, and I don't point out that they're regularly jumping up from the table to enact a cool scene, complete with voices and wild gesticulation.

Someday they will realize.

Meanwhile I shall chuckle into my coffee and encourage their RP.

(They don't actually hold any vitriol for LARP. It's just a knee-jerk reaction from too much exposure to the Naughty Parts of the Internet, sad to say.)

Hi, @waxeagle !

wax eagle

@BESW howdy.

wax eagle

14:02

good grief, I'm not even going to think about reading the backscroll today, too much conversation :)

BESW

@waxeagle Yeah, there was some good Eberron talk, and a close call with a RAW flamewar that managed to be a discussion instead.

wax eagle

@BESW :) RAW vs RAI vs Make them up as you go :)

it's the WWE smackdown of RPG GMs

BESW

@waxeagle Like alignment discussions, there are so many unspoken assumptions about what's actually being talked about that it's very easy to actually have everyone doing one side of a conversation that no one else is having.

wax eagle

@BESW yes, and you just end up talking past each other

BESW

One of the greatest assets to human civilization is our empathy, the ability to feel what another person is feeling. Unfortunately it sometimes leads us to assume that we are thinking the same thing when it's just phantom empathy.

....Sorry, it's midnight and I'm all philosophical.

wax eagle

14:09

@BESW best time to be philosophical IMO

some of the best discussions I ever had with my college roommate were quite late at night

BESW

Many writers have identified what some call the inner critic, that little voice that tells you not to say that, because it's probably stupid.

I've found that mine tends to go to bed before I do.

Can lead to great discussions. Can also... not

[yawn]

Goodnight, all. I'm off to check my eyelids for holes.

Martin Sojka

Good night. :)

Rob

15:42

Beep

Novian

16:23

Evening all.

\err morning

wax eagle

@Novian evening

Novian

just found the easiest way to waste some feats that ive ever seen,

combine Martial Study at 6th level with Psionic Meditation and Psychic Renewal to Bonecrusher every round or every other round without being a Warblade

bit unessecary if you want to do damage

just copypasted so I didnt write this

its only +4d6 damage and a save and for 3 feats I can probably do better

C. Ross

1

Q: Are there speed limits on thrown objects in D&D?

There was an interesting question about the maximum speed of a character, with an even more interesting answer that a properly optimized character can break the speed of light. (So, isn't general relativity present in D&D, and is there no time dilation, etc.?) If someone can reach such ludic...

dungeons-and-dragons

Thoughts? Close votes?

wax eagle

@C.Ross adding mine

Novian

Silly logic questions D&D no care for physics

wax eagle

16:28

@C.Ross with a specific edition it might be answerable along the lines of other op questions. It's not practical, but it probably works if we know what edition.

C. Ross

@waxeagle something like that, combined with maximum damage for falling ... but yes, as it sits it's unanswerable for sure

Novian

I must leave for a short time. gotta leave campus eventually

wax eagle

@C.Ross now it has the 3.5 tag... still probably needs more constraints

also Okeefe having the top answer with one of his trade mark 2 line answers is annoying.

none of the answers there are helpful.

Rob

16:57

allo

wax eagle

@Rob afternoon

Rob

Brief flyby. Have a good un' @waxeagle

Novian

17:36

ello

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