TRPG General Chat

@BESW BUt as I was going to type at one point. It's best as a horror game - and horrifying your players is a very different proposition to giving them a cool story.

BESW

1:46 AM

@somori Yeah, I'm a little on the fence about that.

somori

@Novian It's a PRNG... you'd have to hunt hard to find bias in it.

BESW

They liked the idea of MLWM but the execution made them kinda squirmy.

somori

@BESW My Life With Master? Never played it, only heard bits about it.

BESW

@somori It's very much a 'feels' game, about creating an atmosphere of dread and groveling submission in the PCs, who slowly develop enough spine to challenge their Master face-to-face.

On reflection I think they tried to make a Master they could laugh at (the players get to invent the Master at the start of the game), and the way I played him they couldn't laugh.

somori

@BESW Always a risk.

@BESW One of the avatars in the Dawn of Worlds game over the weekend was Gobble-Gobble Motherf**ker. A turkey with an eye-patch who has to be voiced by Samuel L Jackson.

BESW

1:51 AM

@somori With that name, I would also accept Bruce Willis impressions.

Novian

@somori English Mother!@#$er Do you Speak it?

only thing I can remember that actor ever saying

somori

Don't forget the fact that he was running an organisation of covert operatives built up from elves who can breathe lava and have mastered the magics of stealth and pyromancy.

BESW

@somori They designed a midget who couldn't achieve excellence in the one thing he desired (metalwork) so stole the work of other people in a pathetic attempt to get the local metal guild to accept him.

@somori "elves who can breathe lava" ... "stealth" ...

somori

@BESW "can" not "have to"... it did all get a bit strange.

@BESW hmmm, that could get messy

BESW

@Novian I believe he once said something pithy about airborne ophidians.

somori

1:58 AM

@BESW Repe-pithy? Nah.... there's no way to make that pun work. Dammit.

Novian

Ah IM TIRED OF THESE MOTHERFUCKING SNAKES ON THIS GODDAMN PLANE?

something like that

BESW

@somori They didn't seem to realize that for a man with that kind of profile to rule a town with nothing but fear, he had to be even more cruel and capricious than a Master with more skill or self-worth.

@Novian He can certainly lend a kind of rhythmic poetry to his phrases.

Novian

he wasnt bad in the avengers either

perfect for nick fury

BESW

@Novian Yes, but I'm not sure what I think about the comics changing him to reflect the film casting.

Novian

i dont know either

BESW

2:04 AM

Casting SLJ as Fury was a brilliant example of casting for talent rather than for appearance: if he can fill the role, it doesn't matter if he looks like the source material.

somori

@BESW There's another loop there, isn't there? As I remember, they made the Ultimates Nick Fury look like Jackson and paid him with the casting choice.

BESW

Changing Fury to look like SLJ could be in honor of his skill in inhabiting the role... or it could be a cynical merchandising choice.... or it could be an inability to separate talent from appareance in the way the original casting did.

@somori And there's another reason I don't have an opinion so much as a malaise.

Novian

indeed

BESW

On an entirely unrelated note, someday I shall use this in a campaign, either as flavor or as part of a plot:

Mari Lwyd

The Mari Lwyd (Grey Mare or "Gray Mary" in English), also Y Fari Lwyd, is a Welsh midwinter tradition, possibly to celebrate New Year (see Calennig), although it formerly took place over a period stretching from Christmas to late January. It is a form of visiting wassail, a luck-bringing ritual in which a the participants accompany a person disguised as a horse from house to house (including pubs) and sing at each door in the hope of gaining admittance and being rewarded with food and drink. Background Perhaps deriving from an ancient rite for the Celtic goddess Rhiannon, the Mari Lwyd wa...

Novian

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/1001_and_more_Things_that_the_worst_party_in_Eberron_is_forbidden_from_doing

Rule 928....

BESW

2:13 AM

It's a ghost horse costume.

Novian

Is incorrect because Im the DM

BESW

@Novian If anyone does something like 929 to me, I immediately make the discrepancy part of the plot.

Novian

lol

i dont get the rules ferverent restating that jaela is off limits.

it should be common sense

despite 929.

928 is incorrect because I say so however. any dissagreement is mutiny

BESW

@Novian You've read nearly a thousand items on that list, and you're arguing common sense should keep an item off it?

Novian

Ive read nearly all of them and a good 500 are about jaela

Merrix dCanith is obviously lex luther who got transported to Eberron and is plotting an assault on superman from there.

BESW

2:19 AM

1030+1031: I register approval.

Novian

so rule 67 is incorrect

@BESW Only during the Mabar Festival

BESW

I would totally allow 1084.

(I have Indiana Jones and Mission: Impossible at hand during sessions already.)

Novian

2119 true

2159 is lol

BESW

All these "the X is not named Y" things...

We named our adopted goblin sidekick 'Splat.'

Novian

2167...why not

BESW

2:26 AM

He actually lived to found (and sire) a new clan of goblins dedicated to Bahamut, whose joie de vivre was making friends... with the civilian citizens of enemy powers, to establish secret rebel groups deep in enemy territory.

The actual PCs, on the other hand, were known to history only as Splat's friends.

Novian

2251 I have broken. and it didnt end well.

poor zombie civilisation

they didnt stand a chance....

2471....Yes it is, dont listen to him.

Novian

2:50 AM

is it wrng to graft warforged parts onto shifters to make manual transmissions?

wait that joke didnt come out right

BESW

@Novian Two humans walk into a bar, but the halfling ducks.

Novian

does he need to?

BESW

@Novian No; that's why it's funny.

somori

@Novian I assumed it was at halfling eye-level...

BESW

@somori In that case, it would be a groin joke. Which is also funny.

Novian

2:52 AM

i need to read up on all the ebberon stuff. its politics intruige me.

and merrix dCanith is lex luthor.

if that is true who is superman?

the half orc Psion?

BESW

@Novian Superman IS a touch telekinetic.

Novian

Superman at one point or another possessed whatever super power was neccesary for the situation.

especially the really old ones.

he has had every known super power short of stretching

and a billion different kinds of kryptonite.

BESW

@Novian At one point they ruled that the reason he can hold an entire plane by its nosecone without just snapping the nose off (and rescue falling ladies without just getting a handful of midsection) was that he has unconscious touch telekinesis that lets him enfold them in force fields to hold them together.

Novian

he also can read minds

somori

@BESW It would also explain flight that went beyond the "Jump really fast" model.

BESW

2:57 AM

@somori I liked that version better.

Novian

and it may explain his x ray vision.

or hes a wizard.

he has rays and divinations.....

and cone of cold

BESW

I'm more of a Batman, Jaime Reyes comics guy, but I like a well-written Superman (not dumb as a bag of rocks, but not godlike).

Novian

my favorite super hero was always Gambit for some reason

they need a bag of rats fighter

for a super hero

it would be rather odd.

especially the rats part

BESW

I'm pretty sure there's somebody like that in the Sandman series, but it's not coming to me right now.

Novian

hmm If your party is dead and your near death. is it acceptable to snap a wand of fireball in half to kill the badguy?

or is that just cheating.

hmm.

BESW

3:03 AM

@Novian Ask the players first, at the very least.

Novian

hmm Well I could do worse.

BESW

(and I'm reasonably sure that only works for certain staves.)

Novian

Usually works for any arcane item storing charges I though.

thought

releasing a huge blast of energy,

BESW

I'll check.

Novian

and they wonder why I keep one.

BESW

3:05 AM

...Yeah, no. 3.5 DMG only has the Staff of Power and similar specific items that have explicit abilities along those lines.

Novian

hmm. so no last minute sacrificial heroics.

BESW

Necklace of Fireballs, Staff of Power....

Only some things blow up spectacularly when they're trashed.

Novian

ah yes I could do the 96D6 fireball.

SoP is too expensive to trash.

BESW

Suddenly I'm tempted to run a joke campaign where wizards blow up when they die based on the spells they had left to cast that day.

Novian

even in last minute sacrificial heroics

somori

3:07 AM

@BESW hopefully, that's just a joke "session"!

Novian

@BESW Sounds like the Rune of Unmaking series. exept it wasnt really and explosion in the physical sense. just a shockwave that is generated when a powerful wizard dies that only those with magical talent can feel.

BESW

@Novian Staff of Power is 211,000g. Portable Hole + Bag of Holding is 22,500g.

Novian

....doesnt that just astral plane transport?

@BESW Suddenly I want to write up a serious campaign for this.

BESW

@Novian True. But in the right situation...

Novian

1d6 per spell level.

@BESW what if you did it on the astral plane?

BESW

3:12 AM

@Novian I'd probably rule that it fizzled, created a feedback loop, or randomly teleported you to another part of the Astral Plane. Depending on my mood or a roll of the die.

Evil Overlord List #85: I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button."

Villains NEVER follow that rule. Sudden Astral banishment can be very effective if timed properly.

Novian

whats complicated about making go boom?

BESW

(And with the appropriate summon or telekinesis spells, you can do it at range!)

Novian

@BESW isnt it a move action to do that sort of thing too?

@BESW Mage hand?

BESW

@Novian If Making Go Boom requires careful timing and positioning to achieve the ingestion of a power source larger than your head, then banishment at the right time can be all the heroes need.

@Novian Mage hand may be too slow at 5'/rnd.

Novian

ahh.

A mechanical trap perhapse?

an evil mechanical trap

simple 2 arm trigger mechanism each arm holding one of the ingredient.

BESW

3:16 AM

@somori I dunno, I once ran a summer campaign with a wizard who could only cast spells through arrows ("Hold still while I stab you with this arrow of bull strength."), a dwarven bard with intelligent bagpipes that refused to play unless drunk ("Ah'm jusht a leetle damp, eet'll shound faine!"), and a raised-by-wolves ranger who knew a number of words equal to his Int score.

Novian

in one an open boh the other a portabble hole

BESW

@Novian Eh, summon monster I

"Celestial Blink Dog, I have a task for you."

Novian

Summon monster 2 for 1 for each.

....

somori

@Novian Time to call Grant Imohara. I'm sure the mythbuster crew would love to build something so dangerous.

Novian

tory is the test dummy not grant I like grant he is......Usefull.

I also need adam and .....the other guy.

BESW

3:19 AM

@somori Fantastic Myth-Busters is a campaign concept I could definitely get behind.

Novian

TO TAKE OVER DA WORLD

BESW

Heck, D&D television in general could be awesome.

Novian

....what do you call a scrying mirrior

BESW

"Now, this tarrasque's a bit ornery so I have to be careful to move slow and talk quietly."

somori

@Novian He's the one who could build the robot.

@BESW Oh god.

BESW

3:22 AM

@somori The mind, it boggles.

somori

@BESW Worth a blog post though :)

BESW

@Novian Scrying mirrors don't have performance and scripting.

"You've probably heard that if you put a bag of holding into a portable hole, it'll create a rift in the planes! To test this theory, we've summoned this troll and used flash cards to tell him what to do."

"Let's stand back behind the wall of force and watch, shall we?"

Novian

indeed.

one of our members via a private facebook group we use just told us to bring cans of soup to our next session because he wants to try something....

i dont know what.

BESW

@Novian Charity work, or re-creating the Once Upon a Table Sprite Battle?

Novian

???

BESW

3:37 AM

@Novian Start here: uponatable.com/comic/2003/02/10/the-new-flavor-of-gaming

KRyan

@Novian there are a lot of those rules in those lists that are hallmarks of bad DMing. Mr. Welch makes them funny but a lot of them are sarcastic commentary on bad DMs

Novian

he did mention something about a mr welch in another post.

BESW

@KRyan Very true. There are also some jokes in very poor taste.

KRyan

@Novian that's an excellent metaphor

@BESW truth!

Novian

@BESW hehe. sad thing is I did once sit on a minican of sprite.

didnt notice.

very strange couch we have.

very plush cushions.

Novian

4:45 AM

Kalashtar have the ability to become thrallheards rather easily.

BESW

5:29 AM

@Novian Mr. Welch is considered the originator of the "Things I Am No Longer Allowed to Do in <context>" lists.

...although the title is hotly contested. My headcanon says it's Skippy.

somori

@BESW Things Skippy Is No Longer Allowed To Do In The Military sounds about right,

BESW

@somori Ditto.

Reference for others: skippyslist.com/list

[#83: "Dear Princess Celestia..."]

Luke Burgin

7:26 AM

It's almost Christmas :)

LitheOhm

9:32 AM

@LukeBurgin less than three weeks. Damn.

Undreren

10:03 AM

@Rob damnit! You beat me by 5 sec :)

Rob

10:58 AM

:)

BESW

12:27 PM

In case you can't tell from my questions, one of my players wants to run a pixie with Mounted Combat using a Medium sized PC as its mount.

Are there any questions related to PC-on-PC mount mechanics? I haven't found any yet.

I'm trying to do more research before I put up a big "HAO I MOUNT PC" question.

Martin Sojka

@BESW Try Performance(Courtesan). ;)

BESW

@MartinSojka Stay classy.

Martin Sojka

More seriously, are there no mounts which technically have an INT score in the "sentient" area anyway?

BESW

@MartinSojka Yes, and the DMG has three paragraphs on page 46 about it.

...and then proceeds to give detailed rules about everything except that.

Basically it just says "probably should give any mount of at least party level -2 its own turns, especially if it's a thinky thing."

The specific issue I'm running into is that the generic mount rules say that you can spend your move action to use the mount's move speed; the high-level/intelligent mount rules say that the mount gets its own move actions and the rider goes along for the ride.

Does this mean that a paladin can charge into battle, and then the pixie on his shoulder makes him move again on the pixie's turn? Because that's the RAW I'm reading.

Martin Sojka

12:42 PM

I don't see it. Specific rules for movement for intelligent mounts override general rules for movement for generic mounts.

BESW

@MartinSojka But the specific rules don't conflict with the general rules, and in an exception-based system you always assume the general rule applies unless explicitly told to forget it.

I'm not attached to a ruling in either direction, I just want to be able to give my player an answer with some kind of citation or justification if at all possible.

Martin Sojka

Oh, now I see why I didn't see the questions you were referring to. They're tagged with dnd-4e, which means I have no idea what the actual rules are and no intention of learning them either. :D

BESW

@MartinSojka The Fairy Nuff shrugs in acknowledgement.

wax eagle

1:38 PM

@BESW exploring the lift question

BESW

@waxeagle Cool, thanks.

I'm inclined to just give the player a dirty look and the pixie a dislocated shoulder.

wax eagle

@BESW tbh the answer is likely "yes" problem being 4e is terribly gamist about size

BESW

...and if anyone takes that out of context I shall seem a cruel, sadistic person.

@waxeagle I'm fine with that, really. I admire 4e for sticking to its guns about balance over simulation. Granted, the balance isn't great, but they don't waver about the goal even if the execution sometimes lacks.

I just want to be sure I'm not missing something before I decide if I want to houserule it.

wax eagle

let's see, a pixie's max str at L1 is 18 (no racial bonus). So they by default get 180lbs of carrying capacity. Factor in armor, weapons, miscelaneous other things you've got 150lbs left

if your PC friend weighs 150lbs then they can't pick them up if they are wearing any clothing.

BESW

If we're talking particulars I'm looking down the barrel of a level 24 Str-based pixie.

I just said "20" for a nice round number to spitball with.

wax eagle

1:43 PM

@BESW ah, so we're looking a str what? um 22ish?

what kind of armor is friend pixie wearing?

BESW

25, and leather.

wax eagle

so 250lbs? and the PC it wants to pick up? how loaded down is it?

BESW

And he's going to want to know if he can carry his plate-wearing kalashtar paladin friend.

wax eagle

@BESW even a small kalashtar goes 130lbs so we're looking at 120 lbs of room for equipment

leather is 15, plate is 50, so that leaves 55lbs for other equipment, a mark they are rather likely exceed.

BESW

One reason I'm so interested is that the guy's got great RP going for this combo; the paladin is actually an artificially-created soulmeld of diplomats and couriers and bodyguards (kalashtar is just the closest base we could get to represent him) whose owners hire him out as the perfect negotiator, and the pixie is his supervisor.

I can't say no to a setup like that.

wax eagle

1:48 PM

@BESW sounds legit. is the Kalashtar's PC ok with that?

oh gosh, you've got mount rules to contend with. They aren't going to like the action economy on that

BESW

@waxeagle This campaign's history is weird enough that it's actually the same player running both of them.

wax eagle

@BESW gotcha

BESW

(We keep losing people, and they don't want me to scale down the encounters.)

wax eagle

@BESW gotcha, we've been there

BESW

@waxeagle I do NOT look forward to the action economy rulings. I'm running my due diligence research before I make a question though.

The way I'm reading it, both pixie and paladin get their own turns, and both can spend their move actions to use the paladin's move speed.

wax eagle

1:51 PM

@BESW that's the monster rule, not the PC one

BESW

@waxeagle IS there a PC rule? There's a "high level or intelligent mount" rule, which I don't think explicitly overrides or replaces the regular rules, just adds the mount's turn.

wax eagle

@BESW yeah, its in ummm RC 252

or if you've got DDI its under "Mounted Combat"

basically you get a shared set of actions if mounted. If you dismount you share them for that turn but the next turn you both get your full compliment

(this is includes shared opportunity/turn and immediate/round)

BESW

Okay, but DMG 46 has three paragraphs of "Encounters with PC Mounts" that gives alternative rulings for intelligent mounts and/or mounts at least party level -2.

wax eagle

@BESW ah, haven't seen that

BESW

"You can allow the PCs and the creatures they ride to get their own sets of actions, especially if a character rides a powerful, intelligent monster such as a dragon."

I think a PC counts as powerful if not always intelligent. [grin]

wax eagle

1:56 PM

@BESW interesting.

@BESW yes, on both counts.

finally broke 15k took me long enough

BESW

So the interaction between mount rules and PC rules... sigh.

@waxeagle Grats!

....15k what?

@BESW XP

Shiny. What system?

@BESW repz

[grin]

1:59 PM

@BESW yes

@MartinSojka nah, I'm over twice that in XP :P

BESW

@waxeagle I'm trying not to look at my numbers. It'll just lead to saying stupid things to get points instead of only asking/answering when I have something to say.

I babble enough here.

Thanks for the pixie weight comment. I love 4e and its blithe disregard for reality.

(squares are circles, but only squares larger than 5 feet to a side.)

wax eagle

@BESW I do too.

BESW

Man, you're just whizzing through my questions.

wax eagle

tbh not letting reality get in the way of gaming leads to fewer arguments

BESW

I let reality dictate actions and motives, not rules.

wax eagle

2:04 PM

@BESW well, 4e is kind of my thing.

I'm not Brian, but he's taught me a lot

BESW

Re: repel charge question:

I'm inclined to rule that Repel Charge's "charge attack" phrasing means it the OA MBA specifically interrupts the attack part of the charge, not the movement part. So the guy moves up to you, you get to hit him, and then he gets to hit you.

I'm partly basing this on the way the Compendium lays out charging as a three-part process, the first being move and the second being attack.

The third part being don't do anything else does blunt the argument though.

Thoughts?

wax eagle

@BESW it interrupts the attack. not the movement

so he moves, you attack, he attacks

BESW

So the weapon's reach keyword is only useful to this scenario if the charging monster also has reach?

wax eagle

@BESW yes

BESW

Ching! I has answer. [cheer]

wax eagle

2:08 PM

updating answer :)

btw using an MBA power with a slide against an enemy with no reach is a great idea here :)

BESW

I think that may be his plan.

wax eagle

or MOS shenanigans :)

BESW

Side question: Can a creature with a reach weapon charge to a square adjacent to his target if he wants to?

@waxeagle MOS?

(The DMG's discussion of charge says you have to move to the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy, but the Compendium's glossary leaves that bit out. Is that a deliberate errata?)

(This came up with a glaive fighter who lost most of his mark punishment when charging because of the DMG's extra caveat.)

@waxeagle Excellent clarification, thanks again.

wax eagle

@BESW mark of storm

BESW

@waxeagle Ah. Yeah, I keep a tight lid on marks in my campaign; without the intended social context I consider them difficult to balance.

wax eagle

2:20 PM

@BESW boots of adept charging are the answer

@BESW I'd have to look

BESW

(If a player wants one, we work together to give it a similar social context to Eberron's intent.)

wax eagle

@BESW they can be very powerful in the right hands

BESW

@waxeagle That's actually why the kalashtar paladin wound up with his backstory; he took a Mark that's usually associated with the diplomacy House (Sivis, I think?).

@waxeagle He might have actually been willing to wear those... maybe.

(The fighter was going for a maximized push build and his feet slot gave another +1.)

wax eagle

the closest square you can attack from stipulation is not in the online compendium, I would consider it eratta'd

@BESW gotcha

@BESW i see

BESW

@waxeagle Thanks, I wonder when that happened. We had an even bigger errata goof on a kobold earlier this year.

Between designing the kobold PC and his second level of play, kobold movement got nerfed to the floor.

The player was ticked because he'd chosen kobold for minor-action shifting at-will, and suddenly it didn't exist.

wax eagle

2:24 PM

@BESW ah, end up with a speed of 4?

@BESW ah

BESW

Now they have a move action encounter racial that lets them and close burst 2 allies shift 1. Compared to before it was very underwhelming.

wax eagle

oh gosh, that replacement is garbage too

(comparitively)

BESW

They also switched +2 Stealth for +2 Dungeoneering, and tried to compensate for the pants racial by upgrading them from low-light to darkvision.

wax eagle

then again, shift, move away, charge is kind of overpowered without some class or item support consuming resources

BESW

@waxeagle He was a bola ranger who did no damage, but slowed, proned, immobilized, and prevented teleportation.

wax eagle

2:28 PM

@BESW interesting. specialized in live capture?

BESW

And he could do it in a 3x3 burst at-will.

(Which mean invisibility didn't help much.)

@waxeagle Yup. He grew up as an alley urchin in the streets of the city ruled by Bahamut's dragon-pope, and as a result was surprisingly civilized for a kobold.

(We use the idea that kobolds worship fear, or more accurately whatever inspires the most fear in them, and that they supernaturally acquire minor aspects of whatever they worship. That's why they're around dragons so much, and why you often find them with minor breath weapons of the type their dragon uses.)

wax eagle

@BESW i c

BESW

Thanks very much for your help!

It's nearly 1am, so bed for me.

I'm going to leave the carrying capacity question unanswered for a little while, see if I can attract anything else, but I don't think there'll be anything better than what we've got.

wax eagle

@BESW lol, only 9am here :) you must be an aussie :)

even better, a Guamite! I went to college with a girl who grew up in Guam

BESW

@waxeagle Guam. Aussie time zone, but USA.

@waxeagle Shiny! yeah, Guamanian born and raised.

wax eagle

2:41 PM

@BESW spiffy

BESW

[yawn] We shall speak of this later.

ttfn

wax eagle

@BESW indeed, sleep well

wax eagle

3:00 PM

woah 16 upvotes from gold tag badge for dnd-4e

and one upvote from the cap...

C. Ross

3:18 PM

If y'all are interested, there's a Kickstarter for Fate Core

3

Rob

4:01 PM

Ey up

wax eagle

5:33 PM

@LukeBurgin note my edit on your question

Luke Burgin

6:25 PM

Ok:)

somori

7:34 PM

@C.Ross Every time I look at that, they've blasted through another set of stretch goals! I'm so glad I got in on the Fred's Stash option when I did.

C. Ross

7:54 PM

@somori I know, I've got to get in it soon

somori

@C.Ross There's no reason not to sign up now, they won't take the money until January after all.

C. Ross

@somori when I get home

somori

@C.Ross Ah, that's a good enough reason.

BESW

10:42 PM

@mxyzplk +1 for Shmoo, +5 if it's not a Lucky Number Slevin reference. But I think it's important to recognize that many people see (and enact) the difference between RAW and Rules As Workable, while still feeling like the more complete our understanding of RAW is, the more effectively we can fiddle under the hood without breaking the engine.

Especially in systems that try to be complete, like D&D and Paizo. In systems that are explicit about their you-fill-in-the-holes mentality the metagame is different.

Transcript for