TRPG General Chat - 2022-03-22

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1:37 AM

That pace of play question does not need the down votes. Pace of Play is a non trivial satisfier / dissatisfier in D&D.

2

Experience with that is something I believe that the experts can help with.

2 hours later…

Hot RPG Questions

3:24 AM

4

Q: Will uneven speed be rounded up or down?

When using the sneak action you can move up to half your speed. If I play a goblin with 25 base speed what would be half the speed? Will 12.5 be rounded up to 15 or down to 10? Since 2.5 is difficult to use in a grid map.

movement pathfinder-2e battle-map

4 hours later…

7:00 AM

@HotRPGQuestions A friend's homebrew system did something like this. It featured HP per body area, armour per body area, and armour either absorbing points of damage entirely or converting from piercing to bludgeoning (the only 2 types in that system).

2 hours later…

Hot RPG Questions

9:18 AM

8

Q: D&D Group Goes Too Slowly

So I'm DMing a group that was supposed to run a small campaign, maybe 4 sessions long. But it's taken us over 10 sessions, and we aren't even halfway done. I run a party of 5 2nd level players. The party takes a long time to do the most basic of tasks, and when I try to drop in random encounters,...

dnd-5e gm-techniques party pacing

2 hours later…

Hot RPG Questions

10:59 AM

3

Q: Can a level 6 draconic sorcerer add their Charisma modifier to Chaos Bolt?

In D&D 5e, Draconic Sorcerers, at level 6, gain the ability to add their Charisma modifier to one damage roll of any spell they cast that deals the damage type associated with their Dragon Ancestor. Suppose a sorcerer has a Blue Dragon ancestor, associated with lightning damage. Can they add thei...

dnd-5e spells sorcerer

1 hour later…

12:19 PM

@KorvinStarmast unfortunately, only one answer is currently supported. May need to close the question.

AncientSwordRage

12:37 PM

@NautArch Mine isn't supported, but I think it stands on its own ok?

@AncientSwordRage honestly, no. I downvoted it because you don't go into the details of a situation that you've had like that AND how you resolved it. But that's my opinion and I know I look at things under a strict lens.

I think there's a difference between being an expert and providing expert guidance. Many times we think that just being the expert is enough, but I'm a believer that we need to be the expert AND provide expert guidance.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch I'll be honest, most of my expertise is from reading other answers on RPG.SE. I couldn't point to a single question/answer as 'support' for my answer though - should I not have posted my answer then?

@AncientSwordRage In my opinion? No. Others I'm pretty sure will disagree with that :)

But supported answers has been my on/off crusade here for awhile.

On because I believe in it, off because many others don't and I give up.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch I completely agree with you in principle - but I don't think 'talk to the group' is a wild enough statement to need that much support

@AncientSwordRage "Talk to the group" doesn't, but "how to talk to the group about this particular situation" does.

AncientSwordRage

12:53 PM

@NautArch I can't argue there

OR can I? I don't see how you need to speak them differently than you would normally...

@AncientSwordRage Because this situation has it's own unique issues. Understanding and addressing those issues is where good answers should lie

Generic answers like that aren't "wrong", but they aren't directly answering the question either.

I want to sanity check something quickly:

40

Q: What are the citation expectations of answers on RPG Stack Exchange?

As a Stack Exchange site, answers on RPG.SE are expected to be cited and backed up, but what the expectations are exactly can be hard to find. What are the citation expectations of answers on here? What are the expectations for Objective answers? What are the expectations for Subjective answer...

support faq answers citations

@doppelgreener Something, or me?

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch I mean, my understanding was that the needs of the group should be met as a whole so to address that the GM should speak to them. How they /do/ that is down ti the GM - they haven't led me to think there is a particular way that's required. I've even covered both possibilities.

This hasn't been updated much recently. I'm considering reaching out to double check if there's anything missing we need to revise about it, specifically by opening a new meta basically just checking in to see if there's anything majorly missing that's come up as needing to belong to our citation meta.

Does that sound like an OK move?

1:07 PM

@doppelgreener Do you think your guidance is too much? Or application is too much?

@AncientSwordRage Absolutely, but I still think that being able to address the specific situation with your own experience is what makes an answer supported. Again, I'm pretty strict on this and maybe too much (but I personally disagree with that ;P)

@NautArch I don't have any specific concerns about how it's being used or applied. I just want to check in with folks to make sure they're aware it's still a post that's collaboratively revised and see if there's any updates that are needed. It's the whole thing where like, community wikis still only really get maintained by the person that created them. I created it to ensure we had a single point to summarise citation issues, just want to make sure it's still doing that job.

@doppelgreener Ah. I like it. Never bad to get that discussion in front of people again as a gentle reminder.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener good move 👍

fantastic

Did the "just for fun" tag on meta always have the requirement of mod approval?

Should the Thomas appreciation meta get that? And who the hell downvotes a congratulations post?!

1:23 PM

@NautArch it has always had that in its description, but that was 8 years ago and I don't think we've rigidly followed that. Or loosely followed that. Or followed that at all in any sense.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch it's well supported even 🤷‍♂️

@doppelgreener hahaha :) Should that meta have the tag?

I jokingly thought about downvoting and telling @ThomasMarkov, but just to downvote seems....mean.

@NautArch I'd assume it's a "not a question" or similar sentiment

@Someone_Evil Would the "just for fun" tag help?

@NautArch it's srota justified, otherwise people are like "WHY are you having FUN in our VERY SERIOUS SITE for VERY SERIOUS PEOPLE about VERY SERIOUS GAMES that are NOT for FUN this is SERIOUS"

1:34 PM

@doppelgreener exactly! I just wasn't sure...tags really do evade me.

i'm making fun of it a little bit but there's some truth to it—meta is basically a serious time workspace by default

@NautArch honestly strictly speaking it's not needed, just that being there historically i can tell you it is justified

@doppelgreener i added it, figured it can't hurt.

unless it does. In which case, sorry.

@NautArch It seems more to me like landing in the same category as Thank you posts. It operates in the same not-a-question space

We don't have a tag for that/those, but maybe we should?

I think it's just a meta thing? Meta Qs can be not-a-question posts sometimes.

It's just ... it's just a thing they can do.

Because meta is special.

Because that's one of the functions meta does for Community, yes

1:40 PM

@doppelgreener I've still got some questions about it. I've voiced them before, but I dont think they were taken seriously at the time because I was being an ass at the time.

@ThomasMarkov Now might be a good time to raise them again.

lol now that I'm thinking about it I've got several questions.

But one of them has me hesitant.

How do you ask about the appropriateness of one user's approach on meta without singling them out?

1:59 PM

@ThomasMarkov You don't. Maybe invite them to a private chat for a convo? (That's my suggestion anyway)

@ThomasMarkov you discuss the actions, not the person. If the actions are a problem, the actions are a problem and need to be discussed. If a one-on-one conversation needs to happen, and flag something and have a moderator do it.

1 hour later…

3:23 PM

Does anyone know if this is correct so we can update the wiki answer?

@NautArch Did it last night.

@ThomasMarkov Yes, yes you did.

voting to delete

@NautArch Notably, most of the sourcebooks mentioned there dont actually have backgrounds.

Isn't the new rule that it varies by campaign or playworld or somesuch?

Only the PHB and SCAG have backgrounds. The others are included in the permitted sourcebook list because they have other player options like races and subclasses.

@Someone_Evil Possibly, like I said, still got a few things to check on. I'm very busy today though, might be able to give it another good look tomorrow.

3:34 PM

@doppelgreener I think there is a difficult to grasp related issue that we need to discuss and then we can contextualise — the issue that we really need to talk about is deleting answers.

@Akixkisu Yeah, that was one of my things too.

@ThomasMarkov Thanks for that raven queen tag - I knew it needed more tags, just wasn't sure what to use.

Hot RPG Questions

5

Q: Is this Ursine player race balanced?

I'm mostly concerned about the balance of Frenzy and Shaman's Sense. Using detect balance though, the race seems balanced. Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Wisdom score increases by 1. Age. Ursine mature at around the age of 15 and can live up to 60 years Si...

dnd-5e homebrew-review homebrew races

And on that note perhaps also how to mediate between the major factions related to that approach....there is a single user whose comments I flagged more than 15 times within the last 12 months related to that issue, because they broke our code of conduct.

@NautArch added spells since greater restoration is discussed.

AncientSwordRage

3:37 PM

@ThomasMarkov I still think thats a dumb tag grumble

@AncientSwordRage better than individual spell tags across every game.

@AncientSwordRage Really? I've a list of tags I think are dumb, and that one isn't on it. But I could be convinced to add it.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch we don't need a tag per spell either

@AncientSwordRage What's your thought on how to handle?

AncientSwordRage

0

A: Should we be tagging individual spells?

Spell tags make more sense than the generic terms If you look at the list of top users for spells and ask them to answer a question like How does ‘Pocket Dimension’ work? or even ask if they want it appearing in a watched feed, then the response would likely be "of course! Oh wait, what?" Because...

it's all there ^

in short, only add the tag if it's needed and only edit/split if there's conflict

how do you tell if it's needed? You just sort of do.... I don't think we want a hard policy about it

3:46 PM

@AncientSwordRage Sure, but then we DO have individual tags for spells across games. The concept is spells, and I thought tags were more about concepts (until they're not?)

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch tags are how you find and show expertise in a topic

@AncientSwordRage Ergo, since NautArch doesnt understand tags, he doesnt understand anything.

@NautArch Check mate.

AncientSwordRage

> If you look at the list of top users for spells and ask them to answer a question like How does ‘Pocket Dimension’ work? or even ask if they want it appearing in a watched feed, then the response would likely be "of course! Oh wait, what?"

spells is too wide a net. It's like Stack Overflow having variables

@AncientSwordRage I feel like we've talked somewhere about system tags causing an issue for that argument.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov maybe, but go on

3:52 PM

@ThomasMarkov Check mate, mate.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch Cheque mate!

As in, while I am obviously not an expert in spells in the broad sense, I am definitely an expert in dnd-5e spells.

@AncientSwordRage For me? Thanks!

Whereas someone else might have some domain-specific knowledge within the context of D&D 5e without being an expert in D&D 5e spells.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov yeah, but you shouldn't be able to dupe-hammer rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/194732/… on that basis

I'll concede dnd-5e-spells is not an absolute abomination, but I don't like it

3:54 PM

@AncientSwordRage Sure, but are you concerned about me and the other nine users with the gold spells badge irresponsibly duping questions outside of the systems we also have gold badges for?

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov also the system doesn't recognise tags combining in anyway that makes sense for expertise

@AncientSwordRage That's where self-control comes in. Just because you have the ability, doesn't mean you should use it when you're not an expert in that question specificallyl.

@AncientSwordRage I'll concede that it is an abomination.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov no, but I feel like it's a symptom of us tagging at the wrong level

@AncientSwordRage The wrong level, or a different level from how stack was originally built?

3:56 PM

@AncientSwordRage Which goes back to my problem. I think tags are not understood, or are understood differently by different people.

Which makes them less useful as everyone uses them with their personal direction in mind.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch I'll agree on that

As an example I'd like to follow the glyph-of-warding tag but not the spells tag

12

Q: How are new users expected to learn about the "tag philosophy" of each SE site, and how to tag properly on that site?

Prologue: I am going to be using the Theoretical Computer Science as an example. I posted my question here because I believe my question is of a general nature. I am not picking on TCS in any way. Tag taxonomy consumes a great deal of time on Meta.StackOverflow, particularly when dealing with...

discussion tags new-users

So, each site has it's own philosophy.

Do we have one on meta?

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch @bobble I see you 👀

I did some searching and haven't found yet.

AncientSwordRage

yeah but this is bobble :D

4:02 PM

church.

@Trish I'm not sure how to handle your answer. It's a well written and experience filled, but the experiene is for an unrelated game system. I don't know enough of those games to know if they are on par with D&D as systems where the issue crosses over or not.

But I think I should step away from that question. Pretty sure the community wants it open even if it we get mostly unsupported answers.

I'll just let it be now.

@AncientSwordRage rpg.stackexchange.com/help/tagging

That's kind of it?

Which leads with "sorting questions into specific, well-defined categories. "

I typically don't see categories as so narrow as to only be for one spell.

AncientSwordRage

There needs to be a nice way to flag things for a 'needs citations' post notice

THat's not a category, but a specific item.

@AncientSwordRage I've given up on it. I think the way to do it is to flag for moderator and explain what's missing, but I also think there's a wide view of what's support and what isn't.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch I don't see them as so wide that they fit the entire concept of spells either

Now I just speak with my votes.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch that reasonable

4:09 PM

@AncientSwordRage So is there a little bear here?

Not too wide, not too narrow?

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch if possible

Or is that the abomination dnd-5e-spells

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch ( you mean mommy bear )

> Tags can also be used to help you identify questions that are interesting or relevant to you.

But also, a single spell is a well defined category

I mean Aeron Chairs is a pretty well defined category, but I'd prefer lumping discussions into chairs.

@AncientSwordRage I flag mods and say “good candidate for post notice”

AncientSwordRage

4:11 PM

@ThomasMarkov is that really 'nice' though?

@AncientSwordRage I guess I could try saying please :P

@AncientSwordRage THe problem is that if you ask for those details, you often get in arguments with either OP or someone defending OP.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch meh, once the post notice is on I'm happy

@AncientSwordRage Then just flag and say you don't think this is supported and could a post notice be added to help the stackizen update their answer?

I would really think a comment explaining what the answer is missing is an important first step. The post notices are a fairly clunky tool for encouraging answer improvement

4:16 PM

2 mins ago, by NautArch

@AncientSwordRage THe problem is that if you ask for those details, you often get in arguments with either OP or someone defending OP.

Notices from moderators are much more impactful, and less issues with arguments, then comments by other users.

I don't really remember from who, but a fair chunk of comments in this vein has been short demands for sources with no specificity. (These may well have drawn more flags than others tbf) Actually commenting with what claims need support does in my experience come across much better (admittedly much of that experience has had a diamond attached)

@Someone_Evil Absolutely - I agree with flagging with comments is much better. But when I've asked for support, I think I've been clear - but maybe not. Either way, the vocal responses I've gotten from some users have changed my approach for my own mental health.

AncientSwordRage

My experience is with people flagging unsourced answers as 'NAA'

I want to mark as unhelpful, to train people out of using NAA as a superdownvote, and at the same time I want to make it as helpful as it led me somewhere that I need to add a post notice 🤷‍♂️

@AncientSwordRage definitely not NAA

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch this is on SFF, but I'd still agree with you

it can be tricky as sometimes they do look like they were meant to be comments

4:29 PM

12

Q: What are tags for?

I think we've been kind of dancing around this question a lot, lately, and I'm not seeing a definitive answer in the FAQ. If I click on Tags at the top, I get "A tag is a keyword or label that categorizes your question with other, similar questions. Using the right tags makes it easier for others...

discussion tags

very old, closest I found so far

marginally more recent rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1114

ooh, much more recent

3

Q: What tags should questions get?

In the comments on this question I noticed a discussion, and on visiting chat I saw someone already talking about it. Here are the relevant comments from the question's comment section: One more thing, the dnd-4e tag may be misleading unless you think that 4e, in particular, may provide some ...

discussion tags

Here is one (older) specifically about implicit information via tags: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/q/5148

@Someone_Evil Sure, and this probably covers most situations. But what about answers that are more of a “knowledge dump” for lack of a better term, where large amounts of information are reproduced from memory? There is no one claim that needs support, it’s just that all of it needs to be grounded in something other than the poster’s guarantee that it is right.

@Someone_Evil this is why i generally try to stop asking for clarifications in comments

5:00 PM

@Akixkisu That's a conversation I think might be out of scope for what our citation expectations are — the citation expectations we describe are one thing, what to do to enforce them is another.

AncientSwordRage

@bobble thanks!

Doesn't this imply that every tag should be something you can be an expert in? I don't think that one can really be an expert in damage or attack especially when they could be about any system. Though maybe you're just saying the combination of tags should help an expert find the question? — Exempt-Medic Feb 7, 2020 at 17:58

I agree with the implication (even if RM disagrees in their reply) that every tag should be something you can be an expert in

15

Q: Is the Only-Tag Test for meta-tag-ness broken here?

We've talked about meta tags a lot here. One thing that the last round highlighted is that we have a lot of tags that are impossible to use without a system tag. It's been said that tags like spells or rules-as-written maybe shouldn't exist because they can't be the only tag on a question. Perhap...

discussion tags

Tags are considered valid if combined with a system tag they make sense, where they otherwise might not pass. The extension of this is you can be an expert on it within the domain of a system that would be combined with that tag.

@doppelgreener I feel like there is something about enforcement baked into using the word "expectations". I'm pretty sure we aren't using "expectation" in the probability sense, e.g. "My expectation is that it will rain today."

@doppelgreener This was what I was trying to express a little bit ago.

@ThomasMarkov "I expect you to dress appropriately" is the expectation, the "or else" is not part of that.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I still feel there is an issue

5:09 PM

@doppelgreener I'm saying that "I expect you to dress appropriately" is closer to "You should dress appropriately" than it is to "It is probable that you will dress appropriately".

AncientSwordRage

It's the overlap that jars with me, and the fact it's being used to say more specific (and IMO better) tags aren't needed

@doppelgreener but the implications...

@AncientSwordRage (I'm probably not caught up on whatever conversation this is part of, I just saw that assertion above my message being mentioned and opted to respond to just that.)

@doppelgreener But yes, I see what you're saying. What our expectations are and what to do when they aren't met are separate conversations.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener ( no worries, it started with me calling the spells tag dumb if you're interested )

5:39 PM

@Someone_Evil Can you take a look at the close votes on that slow pace question? It says 3..., but my close vote is missing and it still gives me an option to retract.

What do you mean yours is missing? It seems to be there to me

@Someone_Evil Do you see 3 or 4 close votes?

3

There were 3 when I VTC'd. 3 for needs details, and then I VTC'd for opinion-based.

I see the 3 for details, but my opinion-base isn't there.

Unless someone else retracted and it took mine off?

You voted for needs detail, and yes there are retracted votes

5:44 PM

Weird, I'm pretty sure I voted for opinion-based.

I wouldn't have selected needs detail, unless i did it by mistake.

Force of habit to vote the same as preexisting reasons?

Definitely not. But I guess maybe.

Because if that's what it says...but i'm really confident i picked opinion-based because of the answers.

On RPG.SE Meta: Checking in: do we need any updates to our Citation Expectations meta Q&A?

4

@doppelgreener Standing ovation for that last bit :)

2

Q: Checking in: do we need any updates to our Citation Expectations meta Q&A?

This meta is a check-in on: What are the citation expectations of answers on RPG Stack Exchange? I created this meta a few years ago so people could point to it while leaving a comment addressing an answer that has insufficient citation for something. It's supposed to explain the basics for the a...

discussion citations meta

6:00 PM

@NautArch Honestly that took a bit of work and revision to figure out how to say!

@doppelgreener I agree - I don't think there is a solution there.

Too many disparate and reasonable viewpoints.

honestly I'm basically fine with it being fairly subjective, it's something that's useful to create guidance for, but right now the well is a little poisoned & people are averse to creating guidance because they don't want it to be used as strict rules

Personally I blame our DGTS policy for teaching people wrong how to use our guidance, and seeing its affects on other things was a substantial part of my motivation to push for dismantling DGTS in its current form to replace it with anything more in compliance with how our site's supposed to work.

It was the biggest reference point and it gave a lot of people the impression that meta is a bunch of sticks to hit people with, when in reality it's a bunch of people just trying to figure out what tends to work best in most cases and preserve that guidance for future reference.

@doppelgreener I like the part where dismantling it has turned out to be entirely uncontroversial.

Me too!

I really appreciate your leading the conversation around that on our last revisit.

@doppelgreener I really appreciate your suggestions for improvement on my first draft.

Hmmmm I think I might have a response for your meta.

AncientSwordRage

6:13 PM

> The Citation Expectations Q&A is just there to help users succeed and to help you provide feedback for them.

Heck to the Yes

6:24 PM

@doppelgreener May i suggest bolding this: focus your energy on describing the specific thing they need to do with their answer

@Someone_Evil Laziness? That other user probably picked the right one.

@NautArch I wouldn't. It's in the very first paragraph rendering bolding it less necessary, and it's right above something else bold which is gonna mess with it being emphasis at all.

@doppelgreener Well, I just think it's neat.

:D

@NautArch Bold of you to assume we, the readers, do as well.

6:30 PM

@GcL It's a strong assumption, I know.

@NautArch Really underscores the issue.

6:54 PM

@doppelgreener I posted an answer!

AncientSwordRage

> it's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off Cotton

7:11 PM

@ThomasMarkov That's some very good feedback, thank you.

TheDragonOfFlame

7:26 PM

Okay so I am playing an armorer artificer in a sort of wild game where we all have cool special abilities / objects and whatnot. My cool object is my armor. I am supposed to think of a bunch of bob fett / iron man type gadgets to be integrated in it.

Suggestions and ideas?

@TheDragonOfFlame Need to be based off of existing items/spells?

And tell us more about your game and what you're doing/encountering!

TheDragonOfFlame

@NautArch Nope. My creativity is to go wild.

Are you looking to optimize something? Or is making something more character-focused better?

TheDragonOfFlame

@NautArch its a sort of West Marches game on PbP with two DMs (including me, I am the sub GM). We are all in charge of a small faction (there are about 9 players), and have banded together to become powerful merchants / guilds.

@NautArch honestly just cool gadgets, not really looking for optimization. My character is a sort of mad scientist type.

NGL, just watch Inspector Gadget and convert of few of those into 5e mechanics, within reason.

7:30 PM

@TheDragonOfFlame Ah - what kind of mad science?

TheDragonOfFlame

@ThomasMarkov XD

@NautArch machines. He is an eccentric nobleman who built machines in his basement until it blew up (long story) and he became a head that is attached to, and kept alive by, his magic / mechanical armor

@ThomasMarkov combine that with the fail state question

"As a bonus action, you can speak the command words "go go gadget extendo arms" to increase your reach by 15 feet until the beginning of your next turn".

@ThomasMarkov Roll a d10. On a 1, roll for what modification engages.

"As a bonus action, you can speak the command words "go go gadget extendo legs". If you do, moving 3 feet only costs one foot of your available movement. However, once you begin moving, you can only move in that direction during this turn."

7:36 PM

List of gadgets

Fun fact, Matthew Broderick was approximately 1,000% better as Inspector Gadget than French Stewart.

3 hours later…

10:26 PM

@NautArch The campaign running in the city was D&Desque and in many regards what I have explained there is actually more general GMming advice stemming from one motto: Be a fan of the PCs.

-1

Q: How can I ask a good designer intent question?

We currently discuss whether designer intent questions are on-topic. There is a decent chance that they might become on-topic again — I wonder how one would ask a good designer intent question. I believe this question lays out exceptionally well how that works for homebrew review questions: How c...

support questions

TheDragonOfFlame

10:47 PM

@ThomasMarkov is this a reference to the live action or did he voice gadget?

the live action was surprisingly good

hey there @TheDragonOfFlame

11:02 PM

@TheDragonOfFlame live action.

TheDragonOfFlame

11:16 PM

@Shalvenay hey :)

11:27 PM

@TheDragonOfFlame the first one was. The second was…not.

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