TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

the notification is the sticking point here - I think they would be fine without a notification, but they're extra annoyed it was both in their inbox and email

Medix2

I can't imagine many of those at most 147 users will ever even open such a notification, and the ones who do would likely understand if they are still around today

Thomas Markov

@bobble context?

NautArch

Isn't it a good thing to be notified that something that was once on topic is now off topic? I'd like to know that for future site use.

bobble

1

A: What should we do with old [open-ended] puzzles?

Leave them be. As you say there are 147 of them, and while it would be optimal for them to be closed, closing them has the unfortunate side-effect of sending an irrelevant and unwelcoming message to someone who asked a perfectly on-topic question years ago. Edit: the notification was annoying eno...

1

Q: Policy on closing old questions

I posted a question back in 2016. As an open-ended challenge it was on topic at the time, and now it's not, which is fine. Now the question has been closed, which is also no problem for me. The question is, was closing it now really necessary? The question had no activity for years and I've barel...

discussion

Medix2

I didn't even know you could get emails about stack notifs

Thomas Markov

12:01 AM

I can’t really speak to the landscape at puzzling.

bobble

well y'all have active chatters so I thought I could pick your brains for arguments

Medix2

Aren't there literally a bunch of MSE posts saying you should close old off topic qs?

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 yes.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 It's in your profile settings. I think the default is on (on some kind of roundup), but you've probably turned it off a long time ago

Thomas Markov

If your day is disturbed to any meaningful degree by a single “post closed” notification, that’s something you should talk to your doctor about. I imagine most people would see it and move on.

bobble

12:04 AM

ah, but there were TWO notifications! sighs

Thomas Markov

If no one has handled those metas sufficiently by tomorrow, I’ll think about leaving an answer.

bobble

I probably shouldn't be responding to them anyways, since I was the person closing questions and they didn't like my wording.

Thomas Markov

I am a former puzzling.se participant, after all.

Akixkisu

@bobble sounds like a good idea.

Thomas Markov

12:20 AM

@bobble I posted an answer.

bobble

thanks! might want to explicitly address their worries over notifications

Akixkisu

If we use the Simulacrum tag, then we probably don't need the illusion tag even though all of them are illusions.

Thomas Markov

Again, I really think we should hold off a bit on retagging old stuff with it.

Akixkisu

I think applying the tag to a reasonable number of them is just the right thing to do.

And we probably also don't need the construct tag - unless the question is specifically about that type. Since all Simulacrum are constructs.

Medix2

12:35 AM

I only remove redundant tags when hitting the cap

Like if I have [spells] [cantrips], that's fine to me

Akixkisu

@Medix2 if you think they are helpful, then a few of the questions are already on the home page - might as well edit them.

Medix2

@Akixkisu Yeah idk, I gave up on tags being rigorous a little bit after I tried to think of them as being rigorous and it failed

Akixkisu

12:49 AM

The answers of that one faq-proposal are drifting apart further. That is an 11 score difference now. I wonder if the trend continues.

Medix2

1:00 AM

It won't really change anything, we'd need a rererevisit or a Meta about policy for when that happens

linksassin

@Akixkisu Which meta is this?

The Oracle

3

Q: What are the research expectations of questions on RPG Stack Exchange?

Over the years one thing has become very clear here on RPG.SE: we expect at least some amount of research done by the querent before they ask a question here; Our Help Centre page on "How do I ask a good question?" states that you should "search, and research", the up and down vote button tooltip...

discussion questions policy research

Akixkisu

40

Q: Re-revisiting the "don't guess the system" policy

Sometimes people ask us questions about game mechanics without explicitly telling us what game system or edition they’re playing. At the time of writing, our current policy is to never assume the RPG system or edition of a question, even in cases where there is no doubt what system the querent is...

discussion tags policy game-systems faq-proposal

Medix2

@linksassin The rerevisit to the guessing policy

@TheOracle I'm debating answering this with "it varies person to person question to question and guidelines won't really help or be followed"...

linksassin

@Medix2 I think that the point of that meta is to give guidance to users who are asking poorly researched questions. So a kind of checklist of basic things to check before asking.

Akixkisu

1:06 AM

Even though it has a considerable amount of downvotes it is now a top 25 answer by score.

Medix2

@linksassin Ah that's interesting... but I still think any answer I write would be depending on the question being asked

If it's a social question: What has the table already done tried and discussed and looked for and why didn't it work? If it's a rules question: Have you read the rules, what part about them in particular is confusing or can you not find? If it's a history question: what have you already found, and hopefully you've found something. And if it's a list answered question, provide what you have already found so far to demonstrate that you actually tried

linksassin

@Akixkisu The problem is, users who disagree with the policy have more incentive to vote on it. Also many users have already used up their votes or no longer visit the question. This was the crux of the issue originally. We can't keep checking back on a policy. Personally I feel the following the 5e = D&D 5e meta the friction of the issue has mostly disappeared. There doesn't seem to be many use cases where it is causing arguments since then.

Medix2

Unfortunately, none of my advice feels required in the least, and i feel questions without such explanation or research are probably perfectly stackable, they are simply more likely to attract downvotes without said research and effort being demonstrated

Akixkisu

@linksassin the first part is a non-issue. As we can change/update faq we surely can check in back on that meta.

linksassin

@Medix2 I think the advise you listed is actually more useful to a new user than you think. It's not about closing questions that don't meet it, or saying "if you don't do this your question isn't stackable" its for new users that are struggling to help them learn how to research to improve their questions.

Trish

1:16 AM

@Akixkisu hopefully not. Don't guess the system is GOOD.

Medix2

@Akixkisu Constantly? And then reopen and reclose various questions from those changes? And have what we should actually do be liable to change daily?

Akixkisu

Or we could cut it off now - 11 difference in score with 80/+ votes casts on each answer seems like a pretty decisive vote.

Medix2

@Trish What I'm about to say is very obvious: Depends who you ask

NautArch

@Trish I'm not familiar with L5R, but your monster question seems more like a question for your GM? I'm guessing that system is different with regard to metagaming and looking up monster info?

linksassin

@Akixkisu You may believe it is a 'non-issue' but that doesn't make it true for everyone. However this is ground we have trod before and this isn't the forum for it.

Medix2

1:19 AM

@Akixkisu That's the other thing, the cutoff would be arbitrary yet again. Which I can't imagine going well

But yeah, this has all been discussed at length prior

Akixkisu

@Medix2 probably that.

linksassin

@Akixkisu How would cutting it off now be any less arbitrary than the cutoff we already have? Particularly when the previous cutoff was at a time when the question was active rather than months later.

Akixkisu

So we should keep it to looking at the vote instead of discussing it, seems good to me.

@linksassin it isn't.

Medix2

Which results in the issues I brought up

Akixkisu

@Akixkisu tbf, the more votes we have the fewer votes we can expect if no other circumstances change.

linksassin

1:23 AM

@Akixkisu You have made it extremely clear that that is your opinion. However it is impractical for moderation activities to change day to day based on votes. We need consistency to avoid frustration on the main site. We have a decision, it is unlikely we will change it without a re-visit. And very few users are supportive of yet another re-visit.

Trish

@Medix2 Then ou can tell me to which game belongs: how is dual classing better than multiclassing?

Akixkisu

@linksassin can't wait for D&D 6e.

Medix2

@Trish I'm not gonna guess the system when there's absolutely no way of guessing it right. I'm going to educatedly and expertly know the system like this case

Gosh, why editing on mobile does that I have no idea...

And that case isn't even a good example of the especially obvious questions, which is where I would primarily "guess" the system

linksassin

@Akixkisu The potential existence of 6e would make it more likely we enforce the policy than revert it I would think. There would be a higher level of ambiguity among questions (assuming 6e carries over a reasonable amount from 5e)

Trish

@Medix2 oh, you absolutely can get that one right, because dual class vs. multiclass for humans is AD&D 2nd edition.

Akixkisu

1:28 AM

@linksassin Yup, the stance on the issue would likely adjust to the need of the situation.

Which would reflect in community votes.

I think we agree on that.

Medix2

@Trish Those terms are unique to that one system, really? I wouldn't know that, but an expert would

Realize the community cannot change their vote

So if I want to remove DGtS but with the release of 6e I want to keep it. I cannot meaningfully show this fact

linksassin

@Akixkisu Indeed. However a historical meta is not the place to get the current impression of the community. older votes are locked, userbase changes and many other things. When the situation become appropriate for a re-visit, be it the arrival of 6e, some other rpg or the current policy becoming problematic, then we can create a new meta to get an accurate consensus from the current community. Not the community that did exist.

BESW

(I'd be absolutely shocked if no OSR systems use AD&D/2e terminology?)

Trish

@Medix2 they were different things back then, and have become the same after. that one is supposed to be better than the other makes clear that we look or an edition when the two were distinct, and that was in AD&D 2nd edition, when humans were the only ones allowed at all to dual class.

Medix2

Okay, I don't see your point though. So we'd add the AD&D2e tag or whatever. I would not, but somebody else could and could explain why

linksassin

1:33 AM

@Trish The problem is, a AD&D 2e expert would believe they are unique to that system. But a (Other RPG) 12e expert thinks the same. Since neither is an expert in the other system they aren't aware that it doesn't uniquely identify the system. Hence making an incorrect assumption.

Trish

@linksassin exactly!

Akixkisu

After all we are optimising for 1% not 99%.

Medix2

I don't see the point in the argument here

But similar arguments have been made aplenty

Akixkisu

@Medix2 if we get it wrong once, then it is worse than getting it right 99 times, pearls and all that.

Medix2

If you believe that falsehood, then yes

BESW

1:35 AM

I think an implicit question in a lot of these debates is "is rpg.se a D&D site that happens to sometimes cover other systems also?"

Trish

6

Q: How to deal with answers based on the wrong system/edition?

I had recently seen and answered a question about Silver Nitrate and werewolves/UV light and Vampires in Werewolf the Apocalypse/Vampire the Masquerade. I answered accordingly, but someone did answer using Werewolf the Forsaken/Vampire the Requiem. The rules difference couldn't be bigger unless y...

discussion answers

wong tags invite wrong answers.

Medix2

And those answers will be deleted

Trish

@BESW We are not a D&D 5E site!

Medix2

There are literally thousands of words about the upsides and downsides across Meta

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 quickly and with prejudice.

Medix2

1:39 AM

For me, the question is whether the user whose question is somehow tagged incorrectly will become angry. Meanwhile, I have seen the user whose question is so obviously a certain system be closed by so called experts and the user becomes angry numerous times

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 you ever see a post from NathanS and hear “Baby Come Back” by Player in your head?

BESW

Let's hold off on loaded phrases like "so-called experts," please. It implies that there's somehow something ignorant about either knowing multiple systems copy D&D closely, or following a meta policy, or both.

Medix2

I'm using their words

BESW

We can acknowledge the legitimate anger of people who get their questions closed without co-opting their language without flagging it as such.

Medix2

I have been called a "so called expert" for closing a 5e dnd question. Because, to them, there was no way I could be an expert and not have recognized the system

Well, now I can't edit my message to fix it...

Thomas Markov

1:43 AM

@Medix2 chuckles while counting pile of tag badges

Medix2

But I definitely think there's also the whole other issue of Meta consensus on questions about adding the tag to a question... which I've avoided touching at all costs

Mobile, why??

BESW

Yeah, absolutely. As I've said before:

Apr 6 '20 at 0:59, by BESW

@Medix2 The Stack Exchange devoted years to developing an interface and infrastructure to enforce an epistemology that values pithy independent responses to clear, precise problems. This interface and its accompanying infrastructure actively discourages discussion, ambiguity, and accompaniment.

Apr 6 '20 at 0:59, by BESW

....Then they applied that interface to their space for discussing policies, identifying ambiguities, and accompanying each other.

Thomas Markov

The last proper revisit predates me, so I’ve never even experienced the fun.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Wait what?

BESW

Part of the problem with this whole "guessing system" thing is... the Stack is hostile to being kind to newcomers, and rpg.se's soft policies are pushing against hard-coded infrastructure and corporate expectations.

Medix2

1:49 AM

@ThomasMarkov Wow did my perception of time just stop working

Trish

@RevanantBacon Magic Initiate was in proto 5e, DND next. That is a separate edition to 5e.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov It is morass molasses, but I bet you'd enjoy the hunt of writing the winning rhetoric.

Medix2

@Trish For me, the likelihood of somebody asking about that is so vanishingly small... but I will vote to keep the question closed and there's really nothing else to discuss about it unless you want a Meta about that specific question

Trish

@Medix2 just a comment on the comment they left on "we know the edition, this is in that..." which I could dig up "eh, and that"

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Yes. The 1st anniversary of my first answer is in a couple weeks, the one where you commented and changed my life.

Medix2

1:53 AM

@ThomasMarkov OH I need to go read that again and cry

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 the comments are gone lol

@Akixkisu I’ve thought about adapting my “is 5e good enough” answer for the general question, but I don’t know how I feel about the policy as a whole.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I mean the story post XD

Thomas Markov

Oh that one haha

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov There is still my deleted answer of a compilation of reasons not to change the policy from when I got so fed up with it all I went overboard with "if you can't beat them join them"

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov writing for the cause that succeeds the current policy is the more formidable hunt (I'd also dare say the vaster utility, but your mileage may vary).

Thomas Markov

2:03 AM

If we really want to get squirrely, @Someone_Evil or @linksassin should give us a week’s lead time on a revisit so we can organize into camps and group think our proposals.

Medix2

The one thing I do know is that a big thing I feel is that we just don't have data on what happens if we do change any given policy. We could go and actually get data and see how things go instead of speculating and arguing. I can't imagine a change to something when a significant number of people want to see that change would have permanent and unfixable negative effects on the site.

Oh, I've suggested that before. The idea of posting a question and locking it for like a week while people write up answers that are unveiled simultaneously. I know some sites do that for challenges and whatnot

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov I mean, that kind of happened last time.

Thomas Markov

Alternatively, I could write answers for both sides and watch the world burn when I delete the highest scoring answer.

Medix2

True evil would be randomly swapping the text of the answers

Thomas Markov

The main thing that keeps me from fully supporting the repeal of the policy is that I appreciate the objectivity of it.

It is comfortable to me to be able to look at a clearly defined and easy to apply rule

Akixkisu

2:11 AM

@Medix2 Senecio rowleyanus doesn't grow on Dune. Every expert knows it.

Medix2

@Akixkisu So that's how it feels to completely and utterly not get a reference in the least

Akixkisu

@Medix2 you are welcome :)

BESW

@ThomasMarkov That's probably my biggest problem with the policy. As I said above, it creates an environment which favors D&D, and specifically 5e.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 same tbh

BESW

Applying the same rule to all without considering context does not create equal states for all cases, and in a community that's already biased to assume everything is D&D 5e... well, "don't guess the system" is a clunky way of prying open space for non-D&D games to --exist.

(Speaking of which, I'm very tempted to actually go make a mainsite SAQ about Sun's Ransom.)

Shalvenay

2:23 AM

what I don't understand is why people seem to have issues with specifying they're playing D&D

Akixkisu

I'd enjoy reading SAQs that do system introductions.

BESW

Oh gosh I wouldn't do a system introduction. I'd do a clickbait title with a question and answer that make no sense unless you read the game, and I'd link the game's purchase-page in the question.

Medix2

@Shalvenay Well, "D&D" isn't technically enough. But we also don't really have anything that makes them obviously needed and tags aren't obviously vital and people are probably not unlikely to assume that people can tell what they are asking about

BESW

Q: How many dice can fit on the sun?
A: Between 16 and 24 depending on how tightly you cram them together.

Akixkisu

@Shalvenay you mean 12e of game x that we can't identify?

Medix2

2:25 AM

@BESW Beautiful

Akixkisu

@BESW that sounds fun.

Shalvenay

@Akixkisu because I'm with BESW on this one -- the "no guessing the system" policy created a space where you had to check all your presumptions about system at the door when the system wasn't specified

Akixkisu

@Shalvenay you close vote it, and move on.

Maybe the querent comes back, maybe they won't.

Medix2

Oh @ThomasMarkov does this sound good for an actual answer to you?

Shalvenay

@Akixkisu I'd at least go "what system are you asking about?" in the comments, but I'm not active on mainsite here any longer to speak of

BESW

2:31 AM

"Don't guess the system" is far from perfect, but I think the problems it has are mostly stemming from the problems inherent in applying the Stack itself to this hobby, and even the best most good-making change to the policy is symptomatic treatment at best and probably just palliative care.

Shalvenay

(the problems I run into any more in this space aren't system problems any longer for the most part, but PW problems)

Medix2

@BESW TIL "pallitative"

BESW

Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed because it can't fix everything, just... I think discussions of changing the policy need to happen in the bigger context and without pinning hopes of a miracle cure on it.

@Medix2 I was one of my dad's primary caregivers for ten years, the term's in my head forever now.

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BESW

At any rate, at the end of the day I think rpg.se is a D&D site that sometimes mentions other games--not simply because D&D dominates the SEO that the Stack thrives on and reinforces, but because the Stack is designed for specific kinds of Q&A derived from coding culture, and the D&D style of game design is most compatible with generating Q&A of that type.

Shalvenay

2:37 AM

@BESW yeah -- there really are no good answers to some of the "squishy" questions I've run across in my RP experience

BESW

We can use Good Subjective and Back It Up all day to pry open spaces for other kinds of Q&A to exist here, and we do, but that's not the natural state of Q&A in this infrastructure and it takes constant community action to keep that space from snapping shut again.

That's the role of "don't guess the system," and also why it's such a contentious thing.

Akixkisu

You may deter people who want D&D answers and don't have the presumed knowledge to climb the barrier to entry - those are likely. More often, I think they are also the people who can benefit most from answers tied to that common hobby. Maybe in the future, they will tire of D&D and seek a new game, or they might tire of the barrier to entry and the hobby tied to it altogether. In the end, we don't know.

BESW

Mar 10 '20 at 12:59, by BESW

The Stack Exchange was designed for independently verifiable actionable solutions to specific problems that the developers judged to be morally and emotionally neutral. And then we tried to use that structure for everything from parenting advice to religious discussion to... putting ourselves in the emotional shoes of imaginary people and getting personally invested in their fictional lives.

Anyway, it's time for my semi-regular block of links about indie and small-press gaming.

Medix2

@BESW Best show on Netflix

BESW

"Announcing the first itch.io Creator Day!" From Midnight to 11:59pm PT we won’t be taking our usual cut of sales on the site and developers, musicians, and artists will receive 100% of sales after taxes and payment processor fees. We hope to make this a regular event to give developers an excuse to share and promote their works.

Gar Atkins wrote a twitter thread collecting information about their in-progress game Exceptionals, "a narrative ttrpg inspired by x-men about and for the spaces marginalized peoples make for themselves."

Lotus wrote a twitter thread on "how best to support indie developers as a consumer - a thread by me, noted indie game fan."

Games of #RPGSEA a collection by Role Over Play Dead. Showcasing just a few of the diverse and original RPGs and larps created by the vibrant Southeast Asian scene!

Burst0fHope wrote a twitter thread (also collected in this Google document) about "Appropriately Valuing Your Freelance Work."

The early access version of Nick Butler's Tide Breaker (upcoming Kickstarter) is available on the Tidebreaker website. A cinematic tabletop RPG focused on collaborative worldbuilding and quick to pick up tactical fights.

BESW

3:30 AM

Lysa Penrose is collecting on twitter suggestions for "Discord groups or other communities [that] are the most welcoming, inclusive for D&D newbies these days who are LFG."

A. B.

4:28 AM

Is it possible to move a question across to another Stack Exchange site? I don't remember.

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product-identification

bobble

If it's on-topic on the original site then migration probably won't be done

A. B.

I'm just curious to know what this actually was, and it's clearly a Sci-Fi and Fantasy job.

bobble

A question of that age can't be migrated without higher-ups' intervention

A. B.

Oh, is that on-topic here too?

Ah, I see.

bobble

195

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I posted a question which was closed as off-topic and it seems like it could fit on another site in the network. How can I go about moving it there? What is migration? When can a question be migrated, and who can migrate it? When should I consider migration, and when is it inappropriate? What c...

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A. B.

4:30 AM

(I'm going through some of the Unanswered Questions.)

bobble

Migration is meant for a high-quality question which has been posted to a site where it is off-topic. To rescue it, the question can be moved to a site where it is on-topic.

@A.B. ey, Lit's having a nice push to get some Unanswered questions down :) We've always had a pretty high Unanswered percent.

A. B.

I'll have a look.

There seem to be a lot of unanswered Shadowrun and Pathfinder questions on RPG.SE at the moment. Anyone here that knows anything about those?

BESW

4:46 AM

"Powered by the Apocalypse, Part 6" by Vincent Baker. I’m using an Ursula K. LeGuin quote — you probably already know the one! — as an outline for alternative models to Apocalypse World’s model of conflict.

bobble

y'all have 182 Unanswered. Lit just recently managed to get under 1082 Unanswered. (now 1076)

Adeptus

5:21 AM

@A.B. I've answered a few Pathfinder Q's in the past, just by reading the SRD... and I know a bit about Shadowrun 1e-2e, nothing newer...

A. B.

5:56 AM

Literature seems to have a lot of plain impossible questions, of the "what did the author mean by this?" type, for instance.

Which is answerable if the author did happen to say something about it in an interview, so you can't close it as unanswerable, but if the author never did say anything then I don't see how it can be answered. Just an unavoidable consequence of what the site's about, I suppose.

linksassin

6:09 AM

@A.B. The reason is likely that those systems have a lot of content and require a lot of expertise to be able to answer. Some of the questions are quite niche too.

A. B.

6:37 AM

Fair enough.

Trish

7:16 AM

@A.B. and some questions constrain themselves with the SR5 tag:the seattle flora one Seattle I can point to 3 sourcebook and the very very early novel.. the one with Harlequin and that Renraku guy-turned-runner... Never Deal with a Dragon by Robert N. Charrette.

BESW

7:48 AM

BabblegumSam Road-To-Art-Therapy Sale hosted by Babblegum Sam. A new chapter in BabblegumSam has arrived as I am confirmed to be migrating to a different country where I will undergo a Master's of Art Therapy. Most of the games included in this sale were included in the portfolio which gave me entry into the program and were specifically designed to be therapeutic/emotionally cathartic one way or another.

Akixkisu

9:29 AM

Can we assume that this is an AL question if an AL answer is exactly what the querent wants? rpg.stackexchange.com/q/163861/44723

Akixkisu

9:45 AM

@ThomasMarkov is there any reason to think that this question is about wizards and not sorcerers? rpg.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/74648

The accepted answer deals with the sorc part, why did you approve that edit?

Thomas Markov

9:59 AM

The question body also says wizard.

Akixkisu

10:51 AM

@ThomasMarkov "a simulacrum of the wizard Xanar" so yes, but how does that relate?

Be Xanar, a 17th sorcerer. Is what the body said.

As the accepted answer is specifically about sorcerers, and the querent said that it is exactly what they were looking for, it seems like the intention of the querent - unless you have reason to believe other wise.

NautArch

11:13 AM

@Akixkisu I don't think so. The answer uses AL rules as support in their answer, but tbe querent never mentions it. Accepting the answer as helpful doesn't mean it's an Al question.

Akixkisu

@NautArch yeah that is also where I'm at, I asked for the querent to specify.

NautArch

Also, maybe slow down on the tags? Front page is a lot of simulacrum stop casting! :P

NautArch

11:43 AM

So...does L5R treat metagaming differently?

BESW

Upcoming Kickstarter: ARC: Doom Tabletop RPG by momatoes. A cataclysmic tabletop RPG where heroes embark on heart-racing adventures to slay the apocalypse. Free quickstart and play resources here.

Don't sleep on this one, it looks snappy!

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KorvinStarmast

12:12 PM

@Medix2 If I may harken back to Atwood era Stack philosophy, it isn't the user who matters, what matters is good answers to good questions. The intention is to build and curate an excellent library with high signal to noise ration 😉 Don't have the link to the related blog post on 'users become the problem at most internet sites' ...

NautArch

I'm going to move this to Dragons @ThomasMarkov and @Akixkisu

→ 17 messages moved to Here There Be Dragons

KorvinStarmast

@Trish IIRC those tags got fused, didn't they? Or did they? Memory foggy

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast we have a dnd-next-playtest

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast Yes, and I think we created the tag for the playtest specific content much later for the few questions that are specific to that stage

Thomas Markov

> For questions specific to the playtesting packet materials for the D&D Next Playtest” (packets dated from May 24, 2012 to September 20, 2013, plus the “final playtest packet” from October 2013). Use [dnd-5e] for questions about D&D 5e not related to the original playtest packets.

The tag dnd-next is a synonym of dnd-5e

Someone_Evil

12:21 PM

Here the meta I was thinking of: Can we rename [dnd-next] to [dnd-next-playtest] before it's released?, thought it was much later, but must be mixing that up with a minor retagging effort or maybe just some discussion in chat

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil Ding, now I remember. thanks

Medix2

@KorvinStarmast Yeah I just... can't vibe with such an ideology because when seeing new users angered by current policies I simply cannot help but to empathize and wish to fix things

Or at least, I'm now firmly against the idea of "closing questions causes no harm" as I've now watched it cause harm multiple times and, for me, avoiding causing harm is a BIG priority

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 If what one cares about is the quality of the stack, closing a question (for a valid reason) prevents harm. If one is most focused on the feelings of a random user, who may or may not put forth the effort required for a minimally acceptable in put, then your position makes perfect sense. (Hence a variety of posts on Meta where any number of us discuss engagement and mentoring with new users)

SSD got all up in my grill in a comment stream about asking the RPGSE stack to remember that we need to remember that behind the question is a person. It was bizarre

BESW

Jul 19 '19 at 1:23, by BESW

The Stack's built on an unfriendly premise: that users are fungible creators of content whose value lies only in their accumulated and quantifiable contributions rather than any quality of their individuality.
All its coding and infrastructure, the value judgements that informed their choices at every level, are rooted in that disregard for the individual and that preference for the "wisdom of crowds" and the production of content which means individuals can be discarded when they are no longer useful to the machine.

Medix2

"The quality of the stack" is a subjective metric at best. And for me, happier users increases the stack's quality

I know there are ways to word what BESW quoted as being a good and positive thing for the stack and elsewhere, but for me, it is not a good and positive thing

Thomas Markov

12:41 PM

@Medix2 "The stack" is not "the users", but rather, "the body of content", from SE's perspective.

Medix2

But yeah, I'm one person, and I have no disillusion about the immobility of aspects of the site that I dislike

@ThomasMarkov Yeah, and for me those are fundamentally inseparable

BESW

Sep 24 '18 at 21:44, by BESW

Does it provide an artificially high bar for new user entry? Yes, and the Stack Exchange knows it and is okay with it: our Stack Overlords' position on the matter is that they are picky about the users they want to court: users who are already primed to learn the SE systems and rules; they're willing to lose users who need hand-holding to get to that point, and to sacrifice a small number of questions along the way.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast I meant, it was in the playtest afaict. Or some version of it.

BESW

Sep 6 '18 at 21:04, by BESW

Also, check out how the official response to "it's really hard to learn how to use the site" is "well if you're not going to put in the effort then you're not the kind of person we want using the site."

KorvinStarmast

@Trish yeah, memory is coming back on that

Medix2

12:45 PM

Me: says things about the Stack

BESW: I've been saying this for years XD

BESW

Nov 13 '19 at 22:56, by BESW

I've been on a journey understanding this, myself. When I first joined the Stack I was very excited about seeing what seemed to be a successfully curated community using mostly soft gamification techniques. So I threw myself into it and became and expert, which really changed my understanding of what was going on.

Nov 13 '19 at 22:56, by BESW

And the more I talked with people who've been "in the trenches," like elected moderators and users who the system just isn't interested in, the more I saw the human impact of these philosophies.

in Not a bar, but plays one on TV, May 14 '19 at 20:23, by BESW

Yeah, it's not like this is a unique Stack problem. The idea of treating users as fungible content creators is baked into the modern Internet-based business model, and is a distillation of the wider "profitability is the primary good" paradigm of our economy.

Jul 19 '19 at 1:29, by BESW

I don't think the Stack Exchange is going to fix these problems. I think that whoever makes the next Q&A sites will have learned from the Stack Exchange and have an opportunity to do better.

One lens to look at the guessing-system question is, does rpg.se only want to be a good Stack Exchange site, or do we have goals other than generating SEO-optimized content for the site's owners?

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 I think the new user experience can be improved somewhat, but the constraints BESW mentions in terms of structure (not to mention coder cultural attitudes) don't change overnight. SO/SE has been grappling with that for the last couple of years.

BESW

I'd like to think there's a better frame for the issue at hand than an either/or dichotomy between upsetting people who treat D&D as the default normal (which the Stack's SEO focus ensures will be the case for the foreseeable future), versus alienating people who don't keep D&D at the center of their hobby experience.

Because let's be real, when we say "don't guess the system," we mean "don't assume D&D." Nobody's running around assuming a 5e question is a Fate question, or a CthulhuTech question is a Lovecraftesque question.

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 I've been checking in on MSE now and again since the infamous toxic tweet got SO/SE leadership (corporate, not volunteers) to begin to believe that they had a problem to solve

Medix2

@BESW And yet. And yet, I see people argue that loosening the current policy will inevitably cause such assumptions . That any question could now be any system

BESW

12:59 PM

H*ck, has anybody ever seen someone assume a question was 4e, since 5e was released?

Medix2

And I'm just like... but I trust the users to actually use their expertise in good faith?

KorvinStarmast

I'll go back to my point to Thomas a few days ago about 'might be best to stop picking at the scab' and leave it at that

BESW

Oh, hm. [gears turning]

...well, that's probably completely unhelpful to this conversation but you just slotted in an extra piece into an ongoing think about the problem with western notions of expertise, so thank you.

I'll just say, the Stack Exchange is structured to present the notion that there's such a thing as an TRPG expert, but that doesn't exist. We have people with specialized experiences in specific TRPG areas. But since we're all told to think of ourselves as "experts," we're set up to make uninformed decisions outside our bailiwicks and then get huffy about having our "expertise" called into question.

Medix2

Then, to rephrase, I trust people to only "guess" the system when they really are very sure. There's, of course, subjective confusing bits where one person will be confident and another would not be and I simply don't know how often things like that would happen

G. Moylan

What's the real harm in just commenting and askign what system is being used?

Thomas Markov

1:06 PM

@Medix2 That's one of my worries. We will likely have users debating in comments about how sure they are.

G. Moylan

when it's 'unclear'?

Medix2

And that's where I do like the objectivity the current policy provides. It makes things easier in execution.

G. Moylan

"Hey, cool question. Can I ask what system and edition you're using?"

I don't find that difficult

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan That's what we do already, just we close the question till we get an answer.

Medix2

When the system is actually unclear? I hope asking results in minimal harm. When the system is utterly painfully clear and the new user is now angry that we didn't recognize the system they asked about... there's some harm there

G. Moylan

1:09 PM

I mean, I think that's catering to ignorance. Just because one person posts a question they think is obvious it doesn't necessarily mean that the community of people versed in lots of different games immediately know which one you're talking about. If they get upset about that I think that's on them

Because someone asking the system is clearly interested in helping already, they just want to make sure they give you the right help

If someone asked me the system I'd just be glad to know that people saw my question and I might get an answer soon

we can't please everyone

Medix2

I mean... when you quote entire passages or reference seventeen phrases relatively unique to a system or link to other questions from the same system or post an entire homebrew subclass whose feature names and levels match a given system and are told "there are thousand of RPGs and we can't possibly know which one you're talking about"... I can understand being angry

G. Moylan

Again, I think catering to people being angry isn't fruitful and it encourages that behavior to a degree. If people want help I think they can manage to play by the rules for 5 minutes

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 yes, which is where I find the policy to create hate and discontent

NautArch

Honestly the issue really comes up or not when a querent is asked what system, but when existing users argue about whether or not asking is necessary.

G. Moylan

Yeah I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone get angry when they were asked for a tag

the most heated I've seen it is in this chat

Medix2

1:14 PM

We haven't had a "is this one obvious" Meta in a while, but that's probably because of how the last one went...

NautArch

And it's the same thing with the questions too. It's always between existing stack users.

MikeQ

There have been a few questions about table dynamics and stuff that isn't necessarily grounded in any particular rules system, and the user argued that specifying the system wasn't necessary because rules expertise wouldn't solve the issue.

Medix2

@G.Moylan I've seen it. I was taking screenshots and evidence collecting but realized that the comments are always deleted and so I felt like I shouldn't keep them

G. Moylan

@Medix2 but that's also a rare occurrence. I don't think we can please everyone, nor should we try to do so. It's not possible.

NautArch

@MikeQ that's that's kind of an outlier though. And even when the user doesn't think it's necessary, sometimes it is. And our experts realize that.

Thomas Markov

1:16 PM

@MikeQ That's a totally different problem, methinks.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Which indicates to me their lack of expertise (the asker) - system matters in a variety of ways

BESW

I think it muddies the waters to equate "please tag your system" with "we don't know what system you're using."

G. Moylan

We just need the info, I don't think it matters how we get it.

Whether they add the tag or we add the tag, one way or another it's getting added

BESW

Back when I left "please tag system" comments, I'd say something like "It looks like you're using [system], please add its tag to your question. This post may be put on hold until then so that we can be sure answerers will give useful solutions based on the system you're using."

Medix2

@BESW It cuts into the arguments people make in support or against the policy. Since "Users should learn to tag their systems" and "We just can't be sure" are very different arguments

BESW

1:19 PM

Explaining the how and why tends to get people on board a lot more, even with the most esoteric practices.

G. Moylan

@Medix2 I mean, ideally? yes, people should learn how to use the site if they plan on sticking around. Does that always happen? no

BESW

That is: in addition to all the other problems with this whole scenario, there's often an element of presentation failure which exacerbates the issue.

G. Moylan

Yeah, I don't think it's a huge deal to ask for a tiny bit more info. I think people can deal with that, and if they can't it's not our responsibility to baby their ego

BESW

Which I guess just brings me full circle to the reason I keep talking about the Stack instead of this specific problem:

11 hours ago, by BESW

"Don't guess the system" is far from perfect, but I think the problems it has are mostly stemming from the problems inherent in applying the Stack itself to this hobby, and even the best most good-making change to the policy is symptomatic treatment at best and probably just palliative care.

And it's time for bed. ttfn

Medix2

Yeah I've certainly seen the "People who leave in anger because of the policy are precisely the kind of people we don't want here" argument. It goes directly against my fundamentals

G. Moylan

1:24 PM

You can't please everyone. It's not possible and it isn't healthy (for either party) to try

Medix2

I'll just be along for the ride another while longer and see where it all goes

NautArch

I still think the majority of the issue is the stackizens who don't like it making it an issue on mainsite under questions.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Big agree.

NautArch

I'll even go so far as to say any issues with question tagging should be brought up on Meta and not under the question.

If our goal is really new user improvement, thats an easy improvement to make.

Thomas Markov

I will always be in favor of increasing activity on meta

Medix2

1:39 PM

@ThomasMarkov Never could've guessed that XD

BESW

Mar 4 '14 at 11:54, by BESW

I hereby declare that the first chat user to rightfully suggest a policy or use discussion be turned into a meta post will receive One Free Re-Roll, redeemable in any rpg.se chat game run by myself or other participating GMs.

NautArch

@BESW Imma start collecting rerolls.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Our answers might not apply anymore

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov yes they do (Roll back!)

Thomas Markov

@NautArch invited them to chat

Medix2

1:56 PM

I don't think the edit changed much, since the answer is no

There's no balance issue with +2 Max HP given that the Tough feat exists

NautArch

@Medix2 There is an issue with not getting back to full HP with dice, isn't htere?

Medix2

But that's an issue always, since you can roll low? Or take the Tough feat?

Thomas Markov

Hit Dice are never guaranteed to get you to full if youre below half.

NautArch

yeah, that's true.

I was going to debate...but its true.

oooh, a good question by a new user!! Happy Nautarch.

Someone_Evil

Why would you need to get back up to full? Or, how would being at 12/14 be worse than being at 12/12?

NautArch

2:03 PM

It's not, that's why i'm not debating :P

And I guess the long rest rules get you back to full.

Medix2

It very technically impacts the features that activate only at half HP, but I'm pretty sure all of those heal you so... it's actually a benefit

Someone_Evil

Toll the dead I suppose, but don't know how often you'll run into that

Actually, I think there a few monster abilities with the same clause, but that shouldn't be something to worry about

RevanantBacon

I'm still wondering what the reasoning behind it is. Like, what is the extra 2HP supposed to accomplish? It's not exactly OP, and it it's supposed to be part of a classes level 1 power set, then what else are they getting? If that's it, the whole feature, then it's actually super underpowered

Someone_Evil

Perhaps a more reasonable complaint about doing it the proposed way, it that it's a very subtle way to make an exception to a pattern. That'll make it look like a mistake. It'd then probably be better to include it as a feature, but then it's tiny

Medix2

I thought that was what my answer said XD

Someone_Evil

2:12 PM

So it does. I should have read that more closely then :)

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Might be helpful to mention that 10ks have access to inline tag editing, which is designed to let you edit tags withuot even opening the body edit dialogue.

The Oracle

2

Q: Should we refrain from tag-only edits to recent questions that also need substantial body edits?

Suppose we have a new question that needs substantial body edits and some tags. If I do not intend to do the substantial body edits immediately, should I refrain from adding the needed tags?

discussion tags editing

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I thought I did XD "The tag edit function exists solely to make such edits easier to perform" but I'll add "in-line"

Cat of doom2

2:34 PM

is @KorvinStarmast here?

Someone_Evil

Doesn't seem to be in at the moment. Would you like to leave a message?

MikeQ

Again, you already pinged him in the other chat room. You didn't schedule a time for your game, so he probably doesn't know you want to play right now.

G. Moylan

2:46 PM

@Catofdoom2 You guys should setup a discord to use

Cat of doom2

why?

MikeQ

They are currently playing by text in one of the site rooms. I think play by text was preferred by some of the players.

G. Moylan

ah I see. hmm.

Isn't the whole point of play by text/post that it happens at the pace the players can be online?

Man I'm not finding anything on that RPG book/novel question

MikeQ

@G.Moylan Yes. Other platforms were suggested.

G. Moylan

I see.

NautArch

2:57 PM

@Catofdoom2 maybe y'all should use another service whether it's texting, discord, whatsapp, signal, etc. So that you don't have to try and find people here in chat.

Cat of doom2

@NautArch no thank you

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I'm 2/2 on main meta feature requests, does that count?

GcL

@Devils_Spawn did you ever sort out which book you were looking at?

NautArch

@Catofdoom2 Well, let me rephrase. I think it is a bit disturbing for you to come in and just start asking where everyone is. Another solution would be much better.

Cat of doom2

@NautArch we figured it out

NautArch

3:11 PM

@Catofdoom2 Ok, cool - so no more pinging for them here?

Cat of doom2

for now

and for a couple months

NautArch

ok, please try and find a long-term solution as well.

^^

k

Thank you!

3:15 PM

@GcL, I never did, brother went to California to teach some one how to play. Won't have it back til Monday, maybe

NautArch

@Devils_Spawn have your brother just take a pic

Devils _Spawn

Okay. I can try. He doesn't answer his texts or phone much.... :(

GcL

Probably be more effective to read the edition/copyright notice page.

Devils _Spawn

Yeah.

RevanantBacon

3:45 PM

Watching the color of your water change as your bag of tea steeps is absolutely ~mesmerizing~

NautArch

@RevanantBacon Waiting til it's dark as the devil's blood?

RevanantBacon

@NautArch Nah, it was an herbal tea, so it was redder than an apples skin by the time it was done.

NautArch

hahaha

G. Moylan

4:11 PM

anyone interested in an old Timex Sinclair TS-1000 kit? I'm looking to get rid of it but it looks like it might be a slow sell

and I'm unsure how long I'm willing to keep it in my house

doppelgreener

4:24 PM

@BESW (please do)

GcL

5:31 PM

@G.Moylan Check the SO chat?

G. Moylan

@GcL I think I might, good point

GcL

There's likely to be some sucker there interested in old electronics. I say as I'm sitting above a room with shelves of old electronics.

AncientSwordRage

6:06 PM

@G.Moylan tried retrocomputing SE?

G. Moylan

@AncientSwordRage not yet

GcL

6:22 PM

I imagine half the folks there would be like, "do I want another one of those?"

AncientSwordRage

@GcL or, they'd be ready to haggle form an informed position

G. Moylan

well, that chat seems to be pretty dead, so idk if it'll be helpful

@GcL I'll just rebrand it as the American ZX-81 and it'll fly off the shelf :P

it even comes with the little printer

GcL

Say it in a British accent?

G. Moylan

zed ex aighty wun

GcL

6:38 PM

spot on

Hot RPG Questions

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dnd-5e optimization

G. Moylan

if a question has gone unanswered but I'm not sure if it could best be answered by our own resources, is it OK to put non-SE links in a comment on the Q? or is that discouraged

AncientSwordRage

@G.Moylan 👀

That reads more Australian to me... Where's Ben when you need him?

GcL

@AncientSwordRage Probably in Australia. Hanging out like a bat.

AncientSwordRage

7:18 PM

@GcL 🙃

Feeds

7:43 PM

Needles & Nilbogs: Birthday dice bag - free pattern

posted on May 13, 2021 by Bardic Wizard

Just a buffer post today because I had side effects of my second COVID vaccine shot until yesterday, so I had to catch up on two days of work and didn’t have a chance to write. I’ll stick this on Ravelry when I have a chance. I’ve made a few of these bags as birthday gifts, hence the name. It’s a fairly simple pattern, made with two colors of Aunt Lydia’s Crochet Thread (or any other size 10 …

Upper_Case

Has anyone here had any experience selling something through WotC's DM's Guild?

Thomas Markov

I think KRyan has a writer credit on something being sold there, but I dont know if that means anything

Upper_Case

I'll take any information I can get. For how open it is, and how much fan-generated content there is for D&D, I've had a difficult time finding anyone who has participated. Though I could certainly look more widely than I have

RevanantBacon

He doesn't participate in general chat though, so maybe send him a private room invite to ask him directly?

Upper_Case

That's a good idea

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