TRPG General Chat

bobble

00:00

the notification is the sticking point here - I think they would be fine without a notification, but they're extra annoyed it was both in their inbox and email

Medix2

I can't imagine many of those at most 147 users will ever even open such a notification, and the ones who do would likely understand if they are still around today

Thomas Markov

@bobble context?

NautArch

Isn't it a good thing to be notified that something that was once on topic is now off topic? I'd like to know that for future site use.

bobble

1

A: What should we do with old [open-ended] puzzles?

Leave them be. As you say there are 147 of them, and while it would be optimal for them to be closed, closing them has the unfortunate side-effect of sending an irrelevant and unwelcoming message to someone who asked a perfectly on-topic question years ago. Edit: the notification was annoying eno...

1

Q: Policy on closing old questions

I posted a question back in 2016. As an open-ended challenge it was on topic at the time, and now it's not, which is fine. Now the question has been closed, which is also no problem for me. The question is, was closing it now really necessary? The question had no activity for years and I've barel...

discussion

Medix2

I didn't even know you could get emails about stack notifs

Thomas Markov

00:01

I can’t really speak to the landscape at puzzling.

bobble

well y'all have active chatters so I thought I could pick your brains for arguments

Medix2

Aren't there literally a bunch of MSE posts saying you should close old off topic qs?

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 yes.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 It's in your profile settings. I think the default is on (on some kind of roundup), but you've probably turned it off a long time ago

Thomas Markov

If your day is disturbed to any meaningful degree by a single “post closed” notification, that’s something you should talk to your doctor about. I imagine most people would see it and move on.

bobble

00:04

ah, but there were TWO notifications! sighs

Thomas Markov

If no one has handled those metas sufficiently by tomorrow, I’ll think about leaving an answer.

bobble

I probably shouldn't be responding to them anyways, since I was the person closing questions and they didn't like my wording.

Thomas Markov

I am a former puzzling.se participant, after all.

Akixkisu

@bobble sounds like a good idea.

Thomas Markov

00:20

@bobble I posted an answer.

bobble

thanks! might want to explicitly address their worries over notifications

Akixkisu

If we use the Simulacrum tag, then we probably don't need the illusion tag even though all of them are illusions.

Thomas Markov

Again, I really think we should hold off a bit on retagging old stuff with it.

Akixkisu

I think applying the tag to a reasonable number of them is just the right thing to do.

And we probably also don't need the construct tag - unless the question is specifically about that type. Since all Simulacrum are constructs.

Medix2

00:35

I only remove redundant tags when hitting the cap

Like if I have [spells] [cantrips], that's fine to me

Akixkisu

@Medix2 if you think they are helpful, then a few of the questions are already on the home page - might as well edit them.

Medix2

@Akixkisu Yeah idk, I gave up on tags being rigorous a little bit after I tried to think of them as being rigorous and it failed

Akixkisu

00:49

The answers of that one faq-proposal are drifting apart further. That is an 11 score difference now. I wonder if the trend continues.

Medix2

01:00

It won't really change anything, we'd need a rererevisit or a Meta about policy for when that happens

linksassin

@Akixkisu Which meta is this?

The Oracle

3

Q: What are the research expectations of questions on RPG Stack Exchange?

Over the years one thing has become very clear here on RPG.SE: we expect at least some amount of research done by the querent before they ask a question here; Our Help Centre page on "How do I ask a good question?" states that you should "search, and research", the up and down vote button tooltip...

discussion questions policy research

Akixkisu

40

Q: Re-revisiting the "don't guess the system" policy

Sometimes people ask us questions about game mechanics without explicitly telling us what game system or edition they’re playing. At the time of writing, our current policy is to never assume the RPG system or edition of a question, even in cases where there is no doubt what system the querent is...

discussion tags policy game-systems faq-proposal

Medix2

@linksassin The rerevisit to the guessing policy

@TheOracle I'm debating answering this with "it varies person to person question to question and guidelines won't really help or be followed"...

linksassin

@Medix2 I think that the point of that meta is to give guidance to users who are asking poorly researched questions. So a kind of checklist of basic things to check before asking.

Akixkisu

01:06

Even though it has a considerable amount of downvotes it is now a top 25 answer by score.

Medix2

@linksassin Ah that's interesting... but I still think any answer I write would be depending on the question being asked

If it's a social question: What has the table already done tried and discussed and looked for and why didn't it work? If it's a rules question: Have you read the rules, what part about them in particular is confusing or can you not find? If it's a history question: what have you already found, and hopefully you've found something. And if it's a list answered question, provide what you have already found so far to demonstrate that you actually tried

linksassin

@Akixkisu The problem is, users who disagree with the policy have more incentive to vote on it. Also many users have already used up their votes or no longer visit the question. This was the crux of the issue originally. We can't keep checking back on a policy. Personally I feel the following the 5e = D&D 5e meta the friction of the issue has mostly disappeared. There doesn't seem to be many use cases where it is causing arguments since then.

Medix2

Unfortunately, none of my advice feels required in the least, and i feel questions without such explanation or research are probably perfectly stackable, they are simply more likely to attract downvotes without said research and effort being demonstrated

Akixkisu

@linksassin the first part is a non-issue. As we can change/update faq we surely can check in back on that meta.

linksassin

@Medix2 I think the advise you listed is actually more useful to a new user than you think. It's not about closing questions that don't meet it, or saying "if you don't do this your question isn't stackable" its for new users that are struggling to help them learn how to research to improve their questions.

Trish

01:16

@Akixkisu hopefully not. Don't guess the system is GOOD.

Medix2

@Akixkisu Constantly? And then reopen and reclose various questions from those changes? And have what we should actually do be liable to change daily?

Akixkisu

Or we could cut it off now - 11 difference in score with 80/+ votes casts on each answer seems like a pretty decisive vote.

Medix2

@Trish What I'm about to say is very obvious: Depends who you ask

NautArch

@Trish I'm not familiar with L5R, but your monster question seems more like a question for your GM? I'm guessing that system is different with regard to metagaming and looking up monster info?

linksassin

@Akixkisu You may believe it is a 'non-issue' but that doesn't make it true for everyone. However this is ground we have trod before and this isn't the forum for it.

Medix2

01:19

@Akixkisu That's the other thing, the cutoff would be arbitrary yet again. Which I can't imagine going well

But yeah, this has all been discussed at length prior

Akixkisu

@Medix2 probably that.

linksassin

@Akixkisu How would cutting it off now be any less arbitrary than the cutoff we already have? Particularly when the previous cutoff was at a time when the question was active rather than months later.

Akixkisu

So we should keep it to looking at the vote instead of discussing it, seems good to me.

@linksassin it isn't.

Medix2

Which results in the issues I brought up

Akixkisu

@Akixkisu tbf, the more votes we have the fewer votes we can expect if no other circumstances change.

linksassin

01:23

@Akixkisu You have made it extremely clear that that is your opinion. However it is impractical for moderation activities to change day to day based on votes. We need consistency to avoid frustration on the main site. We have a decision, it is unlikely we will change it without a re-visit. And very few users are supportive of yet another re-visit.

Trish

@Medix2 Then ou can tell me to which game belongs: how is dual classing better than multiclassing?

Akixkisu

@linksassin can't wait for D&D 6e.

Medix2

@Trish I'm not gonna guess the system when there's absolutely no way of guessing it right. I'm going to educatedly and expertly know the system like this case

Gosh, why editing on mobile does that I have no idea...

And that case isn't even a good example of the especially obvious questions, which is where I would primarily "guess" the system

linksassin

@Akixkisu The potential existence of 6e would make it more likely we enforce the policy than revert it I would think. There would be a higher level of ambiguity among questions (assuming 6e carries over a reasonable amount from 5e)

Trish

@Medix2 oh, you absolutely can get that one right, because dual class vs. multiclass for humans is AD&D 2nd edition.

Akixkisu

01:28

@linksassin Yup, the stance on the issue would likely adjust to the need of the situation.

Which would reflect in community votes.

I think we agree on that.

Medix2

@Trish Those terms are unique to that one system, really? I wouldn't know that, but an expert would

Realize the community cannot change their vote

So if I want to remove DGtS but with the release of 6e I want to keep it. I cannot meaningfully show this fact

linksassin

@Akixkisu Indeed. However a historical meta is not the place to get the current impression of the community. older votes are locked, userbase changes and many other things. When the situation become appropriate for a re-visit, be it the arrival of 6e, some other rpg or the current policy becoming problematic, then we can create a new meta to get an accurate consensus from the current community. Not the community that did exist.

BESW

(I'd be absolutely shocked if no OSR systems use AD&D/2e terminology?)

Trish

@Medix2 they were different things back then, and have become the same after. that one is supposed to be better than the other makes clear that we look or an edition when the two were distinct, and that was in AD&D 2nd edition, when humans were the only ones allowed at all to dual class.

Medix2

Okay, I don't see your point though. So we'd add the AD&D2e tag or whatever. I would not, but somebody else could and could explain why

linksassin

01:33

@Trish The problem is, a AD&D 2e expert would believe they are unique to that system. But a (Other RPG) 12e expert thinks the same. Since neither is an expert in the other system they aren't aware that it doesn't uniquely identify the system. Hence making an incorrect assumption.

Trish

@linksassin exactly!

Akixkisu

After all we are optimising for 1% not 99%.

Medix2

I don't see the point in the argument here

But similar arguments have been made aplenty

Akixkisu

@Medix2 if we get it wrong once, then it is worse than getting it right 99 times, pearls and all that.

Medix2

If you believe that falsehood, then yes

BESW

01:35

I think an implicit question in a lot of these debates is "is rpg.se a D&D site that happens to sometimes cover other systems also?"

Trish

6

Q: How to deal with answers based on the wrong system/edition?

I had recently seen and answered a question about Silver Nitrate and werewolves/UV light and Vampires in Werewolf the Apocalypse/Vampire the Masquerade. I answered accordingly, but someone did answer using Werewolf the Forsaken/Vampire the Requiem. The rules difference couldn't be bigger unless y...

discussion answers

wong tags invite wrong answers.

Medix2

And those answers will be deleted

Trish

@BESW We are not a D&D 5E site!

Medix2

There are literally thousands of words about the upsides and downsides across Meta

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 quickly and with prejudice.

Medix2

01:39

For me, the question is whether the user whose question is somehow tagged incorrectly will become angry. Meanwhile, I have seen the user whose question is so obviously a certain system be closed by so called experts and the user becomes angry numerous times

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 you ever see a post from NathanS and hear “Baby Come Back” by Player in your head?

BESW

Let's hold off on loaded phrases like "so-called experts," please. It implies that there's somehow something ignorant about either knowing multiple systems copy D&D closely, or following a meta policy, or both.

Medix2

I'm using their words

BESW

We can acknowledge the legitimate anger of people who get their questions closed without co-opting their language without flagging it as such.

Medix2

I have been called a "so called expert" for closing a 5e dnd question. Because, to them, there was no way I could be an expert and not have recognized the system

Well, now I can't edit my message to fix it...

Thomas Markov

01:43

@Medix2 chuckles while counting pile of tag badges

Medix2

But I definitely think there's also the whole other issue of Meta consensus on questions about adding the tag to a question... which I've avoided touching at all costs

Mobile, why??

BESW

Yeah, absolutely. As I've said before:

Apr 6 '20 at 0:59, by BESW

@Medix2 The Stack Exchange devoted years to developing an interface and infrastructure to enforce an epistemology that values pithy independent responses to clear, precise problems. This interface and its accompanying infrastructure actively discourages discussion, ambiguity, and accompaniment.

Apr 6 '20 at 0:59, by BESW

....Then they applied that interface to their space for discussing policies, identifying ambiguities, and accompanying each other.

Thomas Markov

The last proper revisit predates me, so I’ve never even experienced the fun.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Wait what?

BESW

Part of the problem with this whole "guessing system" thing is... the Stack is hostile to being kind to newcomers, and rpg.se's soft policies are pushing against hard-coded infrastructure and corporate expectations.

Medix2

01:49

@ThomasMarkov Wow did my perception of time just stop working

Trish

@RevanantBacon Magic Initiate was in proto 5e, DND next. That is a separate edition to 5e.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov It is morass molasses, but I bet you'd enjoy the hunt of writing the winning rhetoric.

Medix2

@Trish For me, the likelihood of somebody asking about that is so vanishingly small... but I will vote to keep the question closed and there's really nothing else to discuss about it unless you want a Meta about that specific question

Trish

@Medix2 just a comment on the comment they left on "we know the edition, this is in that..." which I could dig up "eh, and that"

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Yes. The 1st anniversary of my first answer is in a couple weeks, the one where you commented and changed my life.

Medix2

01:53

@ThomasMarkov OH I need to go read that again and cry

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 the comments are gone lol

@Akixkisu I’ve thought about adapting my “is 5e good enough” answer for the general question, but I don’t know how I feel about the policy as a whole.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I mean the story post XD

Thomas Markov

Oh that one haha

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov There is still my deleted answer of a compilation of reasons not to change the policy from when I got so fed up with it all I went overboard with "if you can't beat them join them"

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov writing for the cause that succeeds the current policy is the more formidable hunt (I'd also dare say the vaster utility, but your mileage may vary).

Thomas Markov

02:03

If we really want to get squirrely, @Someone_Evil or @linksassin should give us a week’s lead time on a revisit so we can organize into camps and group think our proposals.

Medix2

The one thing I do know is that a big thing I feel is that we just don't have data on what happens if we do change any given policy. We could go and actually get data and see how things go instead of speculating and arguing. I can't imagine a change to something when a significant number of people want to see that change would have permanent and unfixable negative effects on the site.

Oh, I've suggested that before. The idea of posting a question and locking it for like a week while people write up answers that are unveiled simultaneously. I know some sites do that for challenges and whatnot

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov I mean, that kind of happened last time.

Thomas Markov

Alternatively, I could write answers for both sides and watch the world burn when I delete the highest scoring answer.

Medix2

True evil would be randomly swapping the text of the answers

Thomas Markov

The main thing that keeps me from fully supporting the repeal of the policy is that I appreciate the objectivity of it.

It is comfortable to me to be able to look at a clearly defined and easy to apply rule

Akixkisu

02:11

@Medix2 Senecio rowleyanus doesn't grow on Dune. Every expert knows it.

Medix2

@Akixkisu So that's how it feels to completely and utterly not get a reference in the least

Akixkisu

@Medix2 you are welcome :)

BESW

@ThomasMarkov That's probably my biggest problem with the policy. As I said above, it creates an environment which favors D&D, and specifically 5e.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 same tbh

BESW

Applying the same rule to all without considering context does not create equal states for all cases, and in a community that's already biased to assume everything is D&D 5e... well, "don't guess the system" is a clunky way of prying open space for non-D&D games to --exist.

(Speaking of which, I'm very tempted to actually go make a mainsite SAQ about Sun's Ransom.)

Shalvenay

02:23

what I don't understand is why people seem to have issues with specifying they're playing D&D

Akixkisu

I'd enjoy reading SAQs that do system introductions.

BESW

Oh gosh I wouldn't do a system introduction. I'd do a clickbait title with a question and answer that make no sense unless you read the game, and I'd link the game's purchase-page in the question.

Medix2

@Shalvenay Well, "D&D" isn't technically enough. But we also don't really have anything that makes them obviously needed and tags aren't obviously vital and people are probably not unlikely to assume that people can tell what they are asking about

BESW

Q: How many dice can fit on the sun?
A: Between 16 and 24 depending on how tightly you cram them together.

Akixkisu

@Shalvenay you mean 12e of game x that we can't identify?

Medix2

02:25

@BESW Beautiful

Akixkisu

@BESW that sounds fun.

Shalvenay

@Akixkisu because I'm with BESW on this one -- the "no guessing the system" policy created a space where you had to check all your presumptions about system at the door when the system wasn't specified

Akixkisu

@Shalvenay you close vote it, and move on.

Maybe the querent comes back, maybe they won't.

Medix2

Oh @ThomasMarkov does this sound good for an actual answer to you?

Shalvenay

@Akixkisu I'd at least go "what system are you asking about?" in the comments, but I'm not active on mainsite here any longer to speak of

BESW

02:31

"Don't guess the system" is far from perfect, but I think the problems it has are mostly stemming from the problems inherent in applying the Stack itself to this hobby, and even the best most good-making change to the policy is symptomatic treatment at best and probably just palliative care.

Shalvenay

(the problems I run into any more in this space aren't system problems any longer for the most part, but PW problems)

Medix2

@BESW TIL "pallitative"

BESW

Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed because it can't fix everything, just... I think discussions of changing the policy need to happen in the bigger context and without pinning hopes of a miracle cure on it.

@Medix2 I was one of my dad's primary caregivers for ten years, the term's in my head forever now.

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BESW

At any rate, at the end of the day I think rpg.se is a D&D site that sometimes mentions other games--not simply because D&D dominates the SEO that the Stack thrives on and reinforces, but because the Stack is designed for specific kinds of Q&A derived from coding culture, and the D&D style of game design is most compatible with generating Q&A of that type.

Shalvenay

02:37

@BESW yeah -- there really are no good answers to some of the "squishy" questions I've run across in my RP experience

BESW

We can use Good Subjective and Back It Up all day to pry open spaces for other kinds of Q&A to exist here, and we do, but that's not the natural state of Q&A in this infrastructure and it takes constant community action to keep that space from snapping shut again.

That's the role of "don't guess the system," and also why it's such a contentious thing.

Akixkisu

You may deter people who want D&D answers and don't have the presumed knowledge to climb the barrier to entry - those are likely. More often, I think they are also the people who can benefit most from answers tied to that common hobby. Maybe in the future, they will tire of D&D and seek a new game, or they might tire of the barrier to entry and the hobby tied to it altogether. In the end, we don't know.

BESW

Mar 10 '20 at 12:59, by BESW

The Stack Exchange was designed for independently verifiable actionable solutions to specific problems that the developers judged to be morally and emotionally neutral. And then we tried to use that structure for everything from parenting advice to religious discussion to... putting ourselves in the emotional shoes of imaginary people and getting personally invested in their fictional lives.

Anyway, it's time for my semi-regular block of links about indie and small-press gaming.

Medix2

@BESW Best show on Netflix

BESW

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Gar Atkins wrote a twitter thread collecting information about their in-progress game Exceptionals, "a narrative ttrpg inspired by x-men about and for the spaces marginalized peoples make for themselves."

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BESW

03:30

Lysa Penrose is collecting on twitter suggestions for "Discord groups or other communities [that] are the most welcoming, inclusive for D&D newbies these days who are LFG."

A. B.

04:28

Is it possible to move a question across to another Stack Exchange site? I don't remember.

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product-identification

bobble

If it's on-topic on the original site then migration probably won't be done

A. B.

I'm just curious to know what this actually was, and it's clearly a Sci-Fi and Fantasy job.

bobble

A question of that age can't be migrated without higher-ups' intervention

A. B.

Oh, is that on-topic here too?

Ah, I see.

bobble

195

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A. B.

04:30

(I'm going through some of the Unanswered Questions.)

bobble

Migration is meant for a high-quality question which has been posted to a site where it is off-topic. To rescue it, the question can be moved to a site where it is on-topic.

@A.B. ey, Lit's having a nice push to get some Unanswered questions down :) We've always had a pretty high Unanswered percent.

A. B.

I'll have a look.

There seem to be a lot of unanswered Shadowrun and Pathfinder questions on RPG.SE at the moment. Anyone here that knows anything about those?

BESW

04:46

"Powered by the Apocalypse, Part 6" by Vincent Baker. I’m using an Ursula K. LeGuin quote — you probably already know the one! — as an outline for alternative models to Apocalypse World’s model of conflict.

bobble

y'all have 182 Unanswered. Lit just recently managed to get under 1082 Unanswered. (now 1076)

Adeptus