TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:13

"Busting a move", mini-reviews of PbtA games by Sophie Lagacé.

BESW

03:07

> reveals should happen any time it makes sense, and it shouldn’t be too hard to get them. It is not walls the rest of the group needs to break through – it’s servings at a multicourse dinner. You WANT everyone to get into the story and follow it it to the end, and they should want it too.
https://bankuei.wordpress.com/2021/05/05/puzzlebox-backstories/

BESW

03:41

Misery: A virtual tabletop for Mörk Borg by Augur Studios. A virtual desktop compatible with MÖRK BORG, based on its doom metal aesthetics and lights-light mechanics. Conceived for solo players and game masters, it has all the tools needed to create awesome worlds and generate intricate stories. All with a system that handles the rules and lets you concentrate on the adventure, the world, and your characters!

bobble

04:25

rainbow SHIELD logo update! :D

BESW

Woo!

Bardic Wizard

05:49

@bobble you’re welcome! I use it all the time (except when my weapon of choice is a piece of graph paper and a pen, or stitch fiddle, or an excel spreadsheet... so really only for converting stuff) and I’m quite fond of it

A. B.

06:43

T_T

(Not about Bobble's logo, just for clarification.)

kviiri

07:35

@bobble Wow, it's even neater now that the eagle's colored too (I don't know what SHIELD is but still cool)

I find the tiiiiny blue blot on the eagle's beak a bit distracting though, but that's likely just me :D

@A.B. What's up?

BESW

@kviiri Marvel comics/movies organization: Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division; formerly Strategic Hazard Intervention Espionage Logistics Directorate; originally Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage and Law-Enforcement Division; now replaced in the MCU by the Sentient ~~World~~ Weapon Observation and Response Department.

Not to be confused with other Marvel organizations including but not limited to A.R.M.O.R., H.A.M.M.E.R., S.P.E.A.R., S.T.R.I.K.E., EuroM.I.N.D., S.H.A.P.E., S.T.A.K.E., and W.A.N.D.

kviiri

@BESW Is this a joke :D

@BESW ooh actually yeah, now that rings a bell

vaguely

BESW

@kviiri Only inasmuch as Marvel Comics is a joke.

Trish

@BESW you forget SWORD, but then again, nobody remembers the guys protecting space.

BESW

@Trish Last phrase in the first message.

kviiri

07:49

@BESW zing

kviiri

08:00

American-style Superhero comics are a very foreign thing to me, though other media of the same characters has been big here (eg. Batman and Spider-man films and series)

BESW

Sale: An Altogether Different River Release Sale hosted by Aaron Lim. In conjunction with the full release of An Altogether Different River, I've adjusted the prices of all the related games to reflect the work that's gone into updating their design and layout. However, I'm having this "sale" for the next 2 weeks to celebrate the release, so you can still get those games at roughly their old prices.

kviiri

Comics-wise the Franco-Belgian strain ("BD") is much more popular here, but frankly, many of them are superheroes too, just in a different genre

"A tribal warrior gets temporary super strength from a magic brew and uses it to protect the independence of his village from a scheming imperial aggressor" is something I could well see there being an American-style superhero comic of

Besides, Asterix kinda looks like Thor doesn't he? (almost wondering if it is intentional --- my understanding is that the Franco-Belgian scene was well aware of the American scene so an intentional homage is well within question)

actually drop the "almost", I'm curious now

BESW

08:15

Asterix pre-dates Thor by about three years.

(There's a previous version of Thor in the Marvel comics but it's a minor appearance and unrelated except that the artist was the same.)

Trish

@kviiri I like Tardi and his work. But Spiegelmann, for an American, wasn't bad either.

BESW

I assume both characters were drawing on similar source materials; Hermes' helmet is an obvious shared touchstone.

kviiri

@Trish Heh, "wasn't bad either" is an understatement I'd say :)

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri well, we have a stack where that Q is on-topic

Trish

@kviiri Depends on what you use them for. Both are great for history comics.

kviiri

08:24

@AncientSwordRage Hah, true. Though I generally shy away from non-RPG stacks

I'm too used to our culture

I've recently started hanging around in computer science stack though, because formal grammars are awesome

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri I don't blame you

BESW

Some of my favorite writers for the Big Two supers properties don't get mentioned much. Priest, Okorafor, Sturges, Rogers...

doppelgreener

09:56

@bobble beautiful :D

Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

10:16

@bobble Wow, noice

AncientSwordRage

@bobble oooh shiny

A. B.

11:08

I can't really remember the names of any comics writers hardly :-D

A. B.

11:50

Haven't really read many comics recently.

kviiri

I mostly read web comics, but sadly I haven't had the energy to pick up new ones recently and many of the ones I like are slower than before with their updates

Lackadaisy in particular has had absolutely stunning art and an engaging story, very charismatic characters... and about a year of hiatus due to the author working on an animated short film based on the comic

BESW

@kviiri [coughs in the years-long hiatuses to which Paradigm Shift is prone]

doppelgreener

@kviiri i just learned about that recently! i'm looking forward to it

kviiri

@BESW I also follow Goblins (though I should say, I find it more interesting than I find it good) and while its author has picked up the pace recently, it also feels super slow due to her devoting dozens upon dozens of pages to fight scenes

...which feels really appropriate. The comic is set in DnD.

BESW

Hah.

Some webcomics I'll wait six months to a year for a backlog and then read them all in one go.

kviiri

12:03

(as in, not just Forgotten Realms or anything, but actually DnD in the sense that character sheets, stats, death saves, hit points, character levels are all in-universe concepts in Goblins)

BESW

....that reminds me, I should check out LeveL again soon.

A. B.

Oh, I do that. I've just caught up with a few weeks' worth of Drugs and Wires.

kviiri

@BESW I did that with Stand Still, Stay Silent... or tried to. The idea was that I'd read it from the top once and then catch up

A. B.

kviiri: sounds funny.

kviiri

Which I did, the problem is it took only a few weeks

SSSS is a brilliant comic in many ways, though I'd say it works much better binged than as day-to-day reading. (It updates four times a week which is quite impressive)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

12:05

@A.B. I was about to comment that reading comics at all (and not just 'recently') is something unfamiliar to me, but that's not quite accurate. More precisely, reading mainstream comics is alien to me (and probably to a large chunk of [former] second-worlders). So when I watch the ecranisations of the winged rodent, I am doing so completely ignorant of the actual source.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica "mainstream" being DC and Marvel?

kviiri

@A.B. Yeah, I recently learned that there's an actual genre that does that, it's called LitRPGs. Basically taking concepts that generally apply to game incarnations of fiction, and back-porting these concepts from "utilitarian" level to "in-universe level"

Goblins isn't exactly the genre-defining work, though it's from... early 2000's I think? So before eg. MMORPGs (where many LitRPGs are based on) broke big.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener Well those certainly are the two most mainstream across the world. But not even Tintin either. I noticed that any sorts of comics I read are largely limited to niche-of-a-niche-of-a-niche DIY web stuff, like xkcd or Sandra on the Rocks.

A. B.

Wow, and it's still running? That's a long time for a comic!

kviiri

I've also adapted some ideas from there to my own TRPG campaigns by creating worlds where "levels", "classes" etc are recognized in-universe phenomena.

BESW

12:08

@kviiri I did that with both Narbonic and Skin Horse multiple times during their runs.

kviiri

@A.B. Yes and yes, though the update frequency has varied a lot

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

The closest thing to mainstream I did read was (a) some actual dead-tree second-world comics like Barvinok (which is basically nothing like the mainstream comics of the world) and (b) one digital issue (or was it part of an issue) of Spawn (which apparently was a sequel to some prior events, so that was a wrong place to try starting).

kviiri

The author has had some intensively productive periods (or so I hear, they were before I started reading) and the relatively simplistic art style she used way back probably helped maintain speed (eg. while her line work was fairly detailed, she used only flat colorings)

At one point Ellipsis had a helper who colored the comics for her, I think she returned to doing it herself because it felt like something she wanted to do herself after all

Anyway nowadays it has a much, much more professional look, though progress is still really, really slow.

doppelgreener

There's a comic shop I kinda miss that I used to live near that had one wall of single issues (safely could be ignored), but a wall and several stalls in the middle chock full of small press, dark horse, and other stuff not from the Big Two. It's where I found Saga, mangas like Lone Wolf & Cub, Fables, and a bunch of other stuff I didn't know existed.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I didn't get on with Saga :/

I tried reading Schlock Mercenary, but I got put off early on

doppelgreener

12:13

@AncientSwordRage i liked some of it, but fell off around volume six

kviiri

Erm, I sound a bit too critical there... while I have my misgivings about the comic I try to bear in mind she's really poured a lot of effort into it for over a decade, and especially during the pandemic it's harder to be consistently creative for many of us

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I didn't make it to issue six

kviiri

Still if you're of the type who absolutely needs to have the story progress within timeframes of months, maybe it's best to not try to day-to-day read Goblins and instead read bigger chunks at a time or not at all :)

doppelgreener

it had queer overtones i liked, but there was a bunch of other stuff i did not.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener that's about right for me as well, from what I recall

also this was all part of the free comics on sci-fi stackexchange from way back

BESW

12:17

Oh gosh I should check and see if Midas Monkee is publishing more Pack and Yohancé comics or if those plans to make 'em into films or TV shows are progressing.

doppelgreener

FABLES though, I like a lot. All the characters in our fairytales live in other Realms which are being taken over by The Antagonist, so the ones that can get out flee, and wind up living in our world because The Antagonist hasn't found it.

A. B.

Anyone know Gunnerkrigg Court?

doppelgreener

Telltale Games's The Wolf Among Us is set in that world, and focused largely on Bigby Wolf like the comics do.

@A.B. Me! o/

What a gorgeous comic, and it's so impressive to see how the creator's grown as an artist over time.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I saw a play through of TWAU and I liked it, and now you say there's a comic too?

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage There's a comic! TWAU is a video game spinoff.

kviiri

12:19

@A.B. Heard the name, haven't read it

I recently tried to start reading Scurry and I kinda liked it but for some reason lacked the energy to actually invest into it

BESW

Hrm, nope, it's been a year since Midas Monkee updated their blog with a "we're postponing the Yohancé trailer" announcement. [sad] Yohancé's aesthetic was awesome.

doppelgreener

@BESW I still gotta check that one out

BESW

It's so pretty!

doppelgreener

it IS

BESW

And the same imprint did Egyptian werewolves too.

Sale: The Web Based TTRPGs Are Cool Actually Sale hosted by Dee Pennyway. I want people to know there's more out there than just PDFs and paper, so I'm dropping the price of Beyond the Rift until the end of May. Grab a copy, read it, leave a rating and a comment to let people know that we have other options and those options are good.

AncientSwordRage

12:27

@doppelgreener cool!

doppelgreener

(this is the deluxe edition cover, which are relatively thick compilation volumes but they're ideal for me)

(also the covers are all super pretty)

NautArch

12:39

That distance scaling question is very disappointing so far :(. The logarithmic answer comes closest to having support, but it looks just shy (or may be close enough?)

AncientSwordRage

13:20

@NautArch support as in votes or as in experience

NautArch

@AncientSwordRage Support as in a supported answer.

Anyone watch Bad Batch on disney?

RevanantBacon

@Someone_Evil You can take that banner off of my answer now

@NautArch I don't dislike the answer, but I feel like most of the other people who answered are missing the fact that once you get past close range, distances tend to be arbitrary.

NautArch

@RevanantBacon I still am not sure that's supported. You've referenced the Ars Magica, but your system doesn't really match that, and you don't have evidence of your system working as a whole.

It still reads like an idea that generates off a good seed nugget, but without further support.

RevanantBacon

Like I said, I took inspiration from Ars

I'm obviously not going to copy-paste it as my answer

And how do I "not have evidence of it working"? Like, what exactly are you looking for as evidence?

NautArch

I am looking for having seen this system in use or that you've used.

Those are our citation guidelines.

Please remain friendly in this discussion. If we can't, then let's move on.

→ 2 messages moved to Trash

RevanantBacon

13:37

Face palming is unfriendly now?

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch Maybe my brain is fried, but what would it be supported with besides experience?

NautArch

@AncientSwordRage That's about it, unless you are utilizing a system from another common game maybe?

But really supporting with experience of using that system is what we're looking for

RevanantBacon

So, just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, in a question that's asking for help designing a system for an RPG, you want all answers to have already used that system before it has been designed

Someone_Evil

@RevanantBacon Uhm, do feel like talking me through what you intended it to convey? Because I'm hoping it just didn't come across well

RevanantBacon

@Someone_Evil Nah, don't feel like it.

G. Moylan

13:41

@RevanantBacon That's a bit pedantic. What we want is evidence of a particular part working the way one claims it to

"You could do X or Y" isn't helpful, but "I've done X or tried Y and here's what happened" is

We could do anything. It doesn't mean it will work that way

KorvinStarmast

"here is what I saw in another system that will help, and here's why" used to be a common element in some decent answers here. I hope we can still do that.

2

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I think that should work when you've used that system and can talk to it. But that means being able to talk about the use in the ranges covered by the current system, explain how and why it extrapolates, and then talk about the issues/concerns/pros/cons of that extrapolation from your experience.

KorvinStarmast

In encounter design news, our DM (my brother) sent after us a pair of cloud giants who used a pair of wyverns as their hunting dogs/hunting hawks. Made for a heck of a battle up in the mountains. It seems that the abandoned 'castle' was actually a cloud giant hunting lodge, used seasonally, and our gnome stole a magic ring from it while the giants were not home ... crazy fun last night

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast ooooooh, super cool!

Did you battle the wyverns only?

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast giant sized ring?

KorvinStarmast

13:45

@NautArch heh, we had to fight them all

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast what level are y'all at?

KorvinStarmast

8th

G. Moylan

@AncientSwordRage or a gnome-sized tiara?

NautArch

two cloud giants and two wyverns?

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage When the gnome attuned to it, the thing shrank down.

NautArch

13:46

@KorvinStarmast I prefer the tiara image, thankyouverymuch.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch 7 PCs. The giants arrived during round two

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast I always find the order in which that happens weird

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast ah, that makes more sense.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch thankfully it didn't shrink on their head

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch It was our fourth encounter of the day ...

NautArch

13:47

@AncientSwordRage gnome head goes pop

@KorvinStarmast let's get ready to rruuuumbbbleeee

G. Moylan

@NautArch something something "pop goes the weasel"

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast fourth?!

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage yeah. We had a run in with a gorgon (which wasn't that tough but the risk of turning to stone was present) a platoon of worg mounted hobgoblins (13 mouted troops) led by a hippogriff mounted leader, and four hungery Cave Bears that wanted to eat the oxen on our mule train. Above and beyond this, we are under cover, trying to pretend to NOT be a party of adventurers. Pulled our punches in the other encounters. No fireball! It's our wizard's signature move.

Last night, i'll just say that our cover was blown, and my warlock was out of the fight in round 1. Her web versus the two wyverns failed: both made their save, and she missed one of her poison saves. At end of round 1, 13 HP, and she DD'd away; she was the rear guard and was engaged by the wyverns first

G. Moylan

@KorvinStarmast Isn't the D&D "gorgon" a mechanical bull?

KorvinStarmast

@G.Moylan That can breath on you and turn you to stone, yes

G. Moylan

13:53

While they just took "Medusa" and slapped that on what we traditionally call gorgons

@KorvinStarmast ah I didn't remember that part. I knew they had poisonous breath

KorvinStarmast

@G.Moylan we have a Q&A about that on this stack, in terms of "wft?" about the gorgons in D&D

here it is

NautArch

We almost lost...my paladin(?)...to a gorgon.

I had a question about it...

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch was it "Why me?!"

NautArch

11

Q: Is a Gorgon's Petrifying Breath a poison attack?

The Gorgon has an action for "Petrifying Breath" that causes petrification if recipient fails two con saves. My question is whether or not this weapon is a "poison" so that the Paladin Lay On Hands could end the petrification or if only Greater Restoration or Wish can do it. The Monster Manual ...

I think it actually got a party mate and I was hoping to save him by removing the poison.

I believe that may have been when he petrified and had to roll a new character. Much later in the campaign, we found his statue and now that we had greater restoration, brought him back.

player was given the choice to continue with new character (slightly higher level) or go back to his old one (with some really nice magic items that he had, includingd a manual of conditioning)

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch we lost our life cleric for three sessions while he was a gorgon made statue, so he played one of the PCs whose player was not able to make it. (Our mission was to root out a young blue dragon from an old dwarven mine; the dwarves, and some humans, were now enslaved by orcs and humans who were working for the blue dragon ... took a scroll and an ability check to bring him back (yay for a good die roll!)

NautArch

13:59

Nice! Yeah, the player's second character had a staff of power that the DM thought was too powerful and took away from him (but didn't replace it) in in-game railroading.

G. Moylan

@KorvinStarmast that's actually pretty fascinating

NautArch

When the choice came to keep that or go back a few levels and get the barb with the 22 CON, +3 shield, he couldn't say no.

KorvinStarmast

@G.Moylan Yeah, nice answer like that were available back in the day ....

@NautArch heh, choices, choices

Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

Usually in my campaigns, we have this homebrew rule where the higher your stats are, the higher your max health is, and one player took advantage of the rule and used a magic object that upgraded his stats everytime he used it. And boy oh boy, did he use it every day.

Does anyone think that this rule needs to be nerfed?\

NautArch

@Anonymus25-ReinstateMonica are people not having fun?

Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

14:07

I mean, it makes the campaign too easy, and the other players are like "Hey, we want a challenge!" But the rogue keeps using the item and the others are not feeling the challenge

Rogues are always so greedy

NautArch

@Anonymus25-ReinstateMonica I'd suggest a talk at the table.

About how things are going and if the rogue player is willing to retcon a bit and get back in alignment with the group.

I'd also be more careful about the items you hand out :)

@Anonymus25-ReinstateMonica What system is this?

AncientSwordRage

I've also never heard of such an item, so maybe a non-D&D system?

Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

No, a homebrew D&D item

Homebrew is very common at my table

@NautArch I mean, the party defeated a big general of the BBEG that owned the item, so I had no choice but to give it t them, the party initially agreed to give it to the rogue who saved them from a crumbling cave, but I bet now they regret it

Thomas Markov

Sounds like you know its broken, but we cant tell you if you should play with broken mechanics.

Thats up to you.

NautArch

Something that powerful must be known and have others who want it.

Holding onto it may not be a healthy decision.

Thomas Markov

14:17

Here's some questions that might help you make a decision:

38

Q: I gave a too powerful magic item at too low level for a bad reason, what to do?

When a paladin in the game I run went into the local store ran by an ex adventurer, he went to the back to see the fancy swords, and asked if any looked like his holy symbol. The god he follows is illegal in that world, so I thought it would be cool if the shopkeep had one, so I narrated an old p...

dnd-5e magic-items gm-techniques

41

Q: How do I explain to an AD&D player that items that increase Armor Class in D&D 5e are overpowered?

Context: I have recently started a campaign with a new player that comes from an AD&D background. He wishes to convert and import his character to the campaign. We did this once, and I helped him with the conversion and checked his stuff; he got 2 magical items at 3rd level. A bit much, but I did...

dnd-5e magic-items gm-techniques adnd-2e armor-class

Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

I just followed the advice of this D&D Beyond article: dndbeyond.com/posts/947-how-to-multiclass-in-d-d-for-beginners

Wait, wrong one

Here is the right one: dndbeyond.com/posts/…

doppelgreener

"I followed this advice and got a completely unworkable result" means either the advice-following went way off the rails, or the advice is not good advice

2

"Give low-level players OP items" does not mean, for example, hand them an antimatter cannon

bobble

@kviiri just for you, I'll change it. (Consequence of making all the lines move directly upwards)

doppelgreener

.... I don't know if the advice in and of itself is even sound, so much as trying to patch over some issues in D&D 5e where low-level characters just have very little to work with.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener You're no fun anymore (Using Eric Idle's voice) 😁

doppelgreener

14:22

@KorvinStarmast hehehehehehe

What's important is you have wound up with an unworkable gameplay scenario and you can point to the exact crux of the problem. Whatever the advice you followed to get there, it's clear the result you have right now is unworkable. It's time to remove that problem and repair the damage.

Acknowledge that the item was a mistake and is compromising the fun of the players at the table, remove it from the game, and remove the stat growth it caused. (Your choice of hand-waving a diegetic explanation or just pretending it never happened to begin with.)

kviiri

@bobble Aww <3

@Anonymus25-ReinstateMonica Which system is this? What was the motivation for the rule?

AncientSwordRage

19 mins ago, by Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

No, a homebrew D&D item

Thomas Markov

Unsupported answer needs one downvote before we can delete vote.

doppelgreener

I'm downvoting it, but not specifically to enable deletion

kviiri

@AncientSwordRage ah right

GcL

14:41

@doppelgreener I've grown to appreciate that issue with D&D and Ars Magica. Characters are vulnerable when just starting out. What would be a trivial encounter for characters with even a year of experience might very well be the end of those just beginning.

NautArch

@GcL A big reason why i prefer to start at least level 3.

GcL

@NautArch Which is a fine way to do it. Very few characters or people strike out on their own with essentially no experience and few resources.

Go work for one of those big fancy guilds for a while before striking out on your own.

Sure, you get shit missions like mucking out the dire rat dens from the sewers, but there's plenty of healing and a sergeant to pull you up by your britches when you get in too deep.

doppelgreener

@GcL I don't particularly enjoy that region because it's ... not actually exciting? It's not just that you're vulnerable, you just don't have any meaningful tools to work with. There's no reason for playing that. I want players to start with a fun variety of tools they can engage with, and then I can still provide a sense of growth and a sense of vulnerability.

This is something I value in D&D 4e. It gives you all your most exciting features right at the start, and then gives you new ways to mess around with them as you progress, but you still have all those foundational features.

GcL

@doppelgreener Not having combat abilities nor high skill bonuses is far from being bereft of meaningful tools. There's no stat for ingenuity, and that's always a players best bet for their characters and the story.

doppelgreener

I mean ... it is. You know all the stuff D&D 5e gives you at level 3 and 4, before which level 1-2 is considered the beginner levels? That stuff is the meaningful tools.

NautArch

14:48

I see what both @GcL and @doppelgreener are saying. You can do a lot with just your imagination and workarounds at level 1-2, but you can also die much more randomly by simple die rolls and not bad decisions.

I think that's why @doppelgreener and myself like starting off a bit higher. You get more actual mechanical tools for your character and the odds of random death are much lower.

doppelgreener

Both are significant, yeah

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch that's a feature, not a bug. 😊

GcL

If combat is meaningful, then the 3rd level abilities probably qualify as the meaningful skills.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast hahaha, not a feature for me :P

doppelgreener

The ways I want to play, it is not a good feature

RevanantBacon

14:50

@GcL The issue with low levels isn't being bereft of tools entirely, it's being bereft of the tools you most often need. Sure, you can use a hammer for a lot of problems, but when a situation calls for an allen wrench, your hammer isn't going to be much help.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I agree, starting at level 3 is a good idea since their whole design idea is that the first level or two is the tutorial.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast And I'd ather run my own tutorial with a new player at level 3.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Of course, table preferences vary, but they wanted new players to grow into their characters. Us veterans can pick up a level 2 or a level 9 and step right in.

Best 'tutorial' I have seen for this edition is The Masters' Vault. (I got it free on roll20) very well structured to introduce players to the game and its features one bit at a time.

doppelgreener

This is what has me namedrop D&D 4e: it still gave you a low level of complexity. You only had a handful of things to worry about. But those handful of things included a couple of super exciting class features, like the ability to freakin' teleport a short distance.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener it was awesome

doppelgreener

14:53

The Warlock's ability to do that is foundational to a lot of the rest of their class features they'll gain over time, and it's foundational to their unique way of interacting with the battlefield. You're not overloading the player with complexity letting them start out with that.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener yeah; the mismatch between front loading at level 1 (cleric) and features come on line at level 3(Monk) is kind of weird.

Rogue is one of the few 'organic' progression classes, to me ... I like how Rogue Thief is build in this edition, except that UMD comes on line to late, for my tastes.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast I agree on UMD

KorvinStarmast

Hmm, I think an arcane trickster can take hold person. Makes for some serious damage spikes in my Highwayman concept ... adv on hit and auto crit on a hit with sneak attack damage on top ... not much use against non humanoids, but some serious nova damage here and thre

Goes from "stand and deliver!" to "stand there and die!"

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast and potential disadvantage on the save, too.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Is that the level 9 feature? I think so, PHB not to hand at the moment

RevanantBacon

15:00

Hold Person is an Enchantment spell and on the Wizard spell list, so Arcane Tricksters shouldn't have any issues picking it up at level 6 when they get level 2 spells

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch @ThomasMarkov @RevanantBacon If you were going to make a High Elf Rogue thief (Not arcane Trickster) starting at level 1, which cantrip would you take? I am a bit town between Mind Slive and Mage Hand. I may be able to join into catofdoom's game, and it's something I've wanted to try out for a long time.

RevanantBacon

@KorvinStarmast Yes, l9 feature. When you cast a spell on a creature you are hidden from, they have disad on the save.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast mind sliver is sweet, very few INT-save things out there.

If someone else has mage hand, that's workable

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch And, it helps anyone else in the party who is a spell caster

NautArch

Mind Sliver and toll the dead seem like the "you really hsould take these over anything else)

KorvinStarmast

15:03

I swore I was not going to ever play a rogue/thief again, having played so many in previous editions, but I think I feel the calling; that Highwayman is the thin end of the wedge ....

RevanantBacon

While Mind Sliver is nice, if you're a rogue, you can't apply Sneak Attack with it, which is a huge downside

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon There's more to my play style than DPR.

RevanantBacon

Honestly, I would b tempted to take Minor Illusion because it's just so tricksy

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon It's a fine cantrip, but illusions are very DM dependent; I have usually had decent success with it, though

Thomas Markov

I enjoy mage hand.

I have it on my sorcerer

NautArch

15:05

@ThomasMarkov What happens inside Tiny Hut stays inside Tiny Hut.

y'know, because it's a magical effect.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch snigger

RevanantBacon

@KorvinStarmast That's true, Illusion spells rely heavily on both how creative the user is, and how permissive the DM is.

Cat of doom2

gimme a spell that is uselsee in combat but is amazing for utility!

useless

Thomas Markov

@Catofdoom2 Anything with a long casting time.

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, thaumaturgy

RevanantBacon

15:06

@Catofdoom2 Mending

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 And of course, Unseen Servant and Tenser's Floating Disc 😎 Sources of fun cheese for five editions ...

Anonymus 25- Reinstate Monica

Speak with The Dead

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon Bladesingers can cast mending in combat

RevanantBacon

@KorvinStarmast excuse you, what do you mean Tensers Magical Surfboard is useless in combat? :p

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon Not channeling Legolas at the moment, but I do agree that you can get your gnome archer up a bit to shoot at enemies he'd otherwise not see ...

RevanantBacon

15:08

@ThomasMarkov Just because they can cast it doesn't mean that it's useful :p

NautArch

And mage hand can be useful...disarm followed by that.

KorvinStarmast

Question posed by our group last night: How much does a Cloud Giant's Morning Star Weigh, and should we load them onto already overloaded ore carts?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast don't know and yes?

RevanantBacon

Technically, Minor Illusion can be useful if you're an Illusionist Wizard, since you can make it be real. Cast spell to make a box, hide in box. Box soaks a minimum of one hit for you

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Our barbarian tried to harvest the poison glands from the wyverns, but failed the DC20 Nature Checks checks.

Cat of doom2

15:10

@KorvinStarmast minor illusion could be useful in combat

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 yes, in some situations, it can. So scratch that from the list.

NautArch

There are many spells that have very niche uses in combat where they could come up.

But a lot of those niches need DM to go along with the.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast actually, one thing i also liked about this was the way it inverted how D&D classes often functioned in other editions (or especially in Pathfinder 1e): your class can do this really, really cool amazing thing! It's, like, so awesome! It's the most exciting thing your class ever does! You can get this at the low, low level of ... 17, which is ages away, mired in complexity, and the campaign is about to be over.

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 for your campaign, is character creation 'roll the dice' or is it Point Buy?

doppelgreener

D&D 4e takes that most exciting awesome defining feature and says "here, it's yours now" at the beginning, then finds ways to make it more exciting over time by giving you ways to modify it or new things to combine it with.

KorvinStarmast

15:12

@doppelgreener Oh, man, 5e has a bit of that, which is a disappointment. So +1 to 4e for getting around that

@doppelgreener I would like to see that basic structure tried again if 6e ever happens ... but that's next decade, as far as I can tell.

doppelgreener

I would as well.

KorvinStarmast

IIRC, 13th age does that somewhat ... but as we didn't get to play ... I didn't get to see that work out

NautArch

@doppelgreener This is also why I have difficulty in helping people with builds that are just generic and not aimed for either a level range or knowledge of going to 20.

doppelgreener

I value games like Cortex and Fate that let you just ... do that for yourself. Start yourself out with the Cool Defining Features.

RevanantBacon

@NautArch [insert "no one ever makes it to level 20" meme here]

Thomas Markov

15:15

New bounty is up. 100 points did not attract any ambitious answers, maybe 500 points will do the trick.

KorvinStarmast

???

Carcer

see also: chargen in points systems which reward hilarious overspecialisation at character creation

s/reward/incentivise/, maybe

NautArch

@RevanantBacon lies! My paladin went to 20 and my bard got to 17, bu tthe other players got their characters to 20 (I didnt play as much)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I came from GURPS and my complaint is that the points system encourages overgeneralisation . . .

doppelgreener

@Carcer this one trime i made a GURPS character who was blinded and instead had more or less Daredevil's capacity to see via sonar, around and through walls, and to be able to feel fine movement at touch. We crunched all the features together and somehow wound up with me having net gained character points to work with.

I'm still sure we did something wrong there.

Carcer

15:18

heh

yeah I mostly had WoD in mind when I said it

KorvinStarmast

If cheesing turns out fun, I don't wanna be right ....

AncientSwordRage

@Carcer Flaws in VtM...

yup, and sacrificing humanity

Carcer

@AncientSwordRage it's more the way that the cost of skills/attributes is linear at chargen but exponential in experience

Thomas Markov

@Trish The answer appears to be in much better shape with the additional context you added.

Carcer

a character who specialises really narrowly at chargen and then spends experience on broadening their skillset requires less experience to get to the same place as someone who chargens a jack-of-all-trades and then tries to specialise them with spent experience

Trish

15:20

@ThomasMarkov adding even more: looking up military engagemnet distances.

AncientSwordRage

@Carcer ooh I had forgotten that

NautArch

@Trish Honestly, I don't know if real life is what backs this up. Actual gaming use is the support that is needed.

doppelgreener

> Our last bounty of 100 points went unclaimed, so Markov's Internet Redistribution Initiative has allocated 500 asbestos-free internet points [...]

@ThomasMarkov i appreciate the qualifier

NautArch

Because not everything that works in real life works at tables.

doppelgreener

....... wait, did the initial 100 have asbestos!?

Trish

15:23

@NautArch Then GURPS is all you need, and a little point out that combat takes place at worst in the 7 step?

NautArch

@Trish If GURPS uses the distances with regard to casting, then that would work well (i think), but I"d like to see you cover that in your answer.

RevanantBacon

@Carcer Yeah, lemme just spend the minimum number of points needed to get the base skill that I like, then dump every last point into STR DEX and STAM for my werewolf.

GcL

@Trish I know people in the military that got engaged from halfway around the world. The benefits and pay bump were a motivating factor.

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov I'm confused as to why the top answer isn't considered acceptable. Swarms are listed at their own unique stat blocks in the MM

NautArch

@G.Moylan it has zero support

Trish

15:33

@GcL drone pilots. Common combat distance: 50 in CQC and 100 in forests. 500 is RARE

planes go in the 5-50 kilometer range against one another

G. Moylan

@NautArch In this case it seems the missing support would just be that they're listed as their own stat block, no?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Glancing at the Scanning Sense (Sonar) in 4e, what you describe seems to make sense: base 20-point ability can be enhanced a lot, while Blindness is [-50], so it's possible to make a combat-good sensor (at least at short ranges) from that while still saving some points. Whether that's a fair trade for the downside of not distinguishing *visual* stuff will of course be a matter of some debate.

Vibration Sense can probably be enhanced even more efficiently, but requires some non-obvious choices, and is worse for noncombat resolution.

NautArch

@G.Moylan Honestly, I haven't looked to make my own answer, but that answer has no support.

G. Moylan

@NautArch Ok, I'm working on an answer

NautArch

@G.Moylan ok, but you realize the internet points are flammable, right? Asbestos has been removed.

G. Moylan

15:37

@NautArch they're technically inflammable

@NautArch I don't plan on grinding them up into dust and then rolling in them, though

NautArch

@G.Moylan are they, I haven't tried burning them. BUt you can burn them easily with downvotes and bounties.

G. Moylan

@NautArch google.com/search?q=inflammabe

NautArch

@G.Moylan They're the same!

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan the highest scoring answer claims to put forward the rules as written answer, but it cites exactly zero rules.

NautArch

TiL about flammable

RevanantBacon

15:40

@NautArch This is what happens when you put three separate languages in a trenchcoat and pretend that they're the same

G. Moylan

@NautArch It seems like a major failing that two words that seem to imply opposite meanings in fact do mean the same thing, particularly when the undesired result could be very harmful

bobble

@RevanantBacon whisks off trenchcoat

NautArch

@RevanantBacon y tu, lardon?

RevanantBacon

@NautArch Exactly!

AncientSwordRage

@bobble which three languages though?

And why are you whisking it? Making a souffle?

bobble

15:43

@AncientSwordRage that's what I'm trying to find out!

AncientSwordRage

@bobble French German and Latin?

GcL

@AncientSwordRage Latin, German, and Span-fra-ital-indi-ese

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@G.Moylan Opposite? One means going [up?] in flames, the other means becoming flaming?

Cat of doom2

@KorvinStarmast i think I'll have it point buy unless the players can prove dice roll is better.

RevanantBacon

@GcL And Greek, don't forget the Greek

GcL

15:49

@RevanantBacon Remember the Alamo and don't forget the Greek. Got it.

G. Moylan

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica "seem to imply" being the key phrase here. I would posit that most people (at least where I'm from) hear "inflammable" and think "can't be set on fire"

RevanantBacon

(Also, saying spanish, french , and Italian is almost the same as saying latin, since latin is the primary root language of all three)

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica less opposite, more parallel I think

GcL

@G.Moylan That's the trick! flammable and inflammable are the same! I blame the Latins and their "inflammare"

ACuriousMind

the confusion traces back to latin, where 'in' was both a preposition of place and a privative in, it's nothing special to English at all

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 Unless players can prove dice roll is better? That makes no sense to me. Point buy is simpler, that's for sure, suggest you go with that.

GcL

15:53

That in- prefix isn't always a negation.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener apparently, Noreen from OSHA gave Thomas a phone call ...

@G.Moylan concur, the question is IMO a bad one ... I am staying away from it

RevanantBacon

@GcL It's not always, but it usually is, hence the confusion most people get from it. I suppose that this is another case of "this is how the language works, except for when it doesn't". It's like I before E except after C, where it works sometimes, except in words like ancient or beige, which are the opposite

KorvinStarmast

I never did paint the ceiling beige ...

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@RevanantBacon I read that statistically, it works fewer times than it doesn't.

RevanantBacon

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Yup

But it holds true for words that are used more commonly

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

15:57

Englishmen seem disdainful of rules, and love exceptions. ^_^

RevanantBacon

XD

@AncientSwordRage You're in England, can you confirm or deny? :p

ACuriousMind

It's not English, the prefix in- had the triple meaning of negating/adding a sense of location/intensifying the verb it's attached to already in Latin

all the romance languages just inherited that, and English via the large amount of Latin words it borrowed via French, too

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica that was it! there was also some kind of tactile/vibration sense ability which might have been worth [+15] or [+20]

tbh, not being able to see the colors and shapes on peoples' uniforms and not being able to read would be a big disadvantage

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Yeah, that and the similar downsides are the big drawback.

G. Moylan

I gave the stat block question a whack, feedback appreciated. I am ready to make edits. rpg.stackexchange.com/a/184814/50702

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

16:04

Also, it's actually [10] as a base (in 4e at least), which makes it really great for enhancing.

KorvinStarmast

random twitter quote that got a grin out of me today: Amber, Queen of Dragons @Farore_RPG Being a Dungeon Master means having a productive 30-minute writing session followed by two months of writer’s block

Cat of doom2

is anyone else intrested in joining my campaign?

GcL

@RevanantBacon I have been done asserting that English has rules for a long time. I would consider the statement it has guidelines.

Mithical

(no one-box) 4.bp.blogspot.com/-e0CDYAnpMbI/U4T9X9m93qI/AAAAAAAAA_4/…

KorvinStarmast

16:19

@GcL My high school English teacher will be by your flat today, with both a torch and pitchfork

GcL

That'll add a bit of colour to my day. I'll summarise the talking points. and get right to the centre of it so as not to waste their time. Then onto the pilsner.

KorvinStarmast

@GcL Absolutely: Onto the Pilsner! (The name of my next album)

AncientSwordRage

@Catofdoom2 unfortunately not :(

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov I've given it a shot. I guess I see this one as obvious, though it clearly is not. Please let me know if I can improve my answer or if I've left anything out

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 I am, but I am still a little hazy as to the 'when' since I have no availability on Saturdays, at all.

GcL

16:29

You could add a cat to the bottom if it's a long answer.
 |\---/|
 | o_o |
  \_^_/

G. Moylan

Whoa, a morphing cat!

GcL

Trying to sort out the monospaced block in chat took a while.

G. Moylan

Is there a rep level that allows us to see deleted comments or is that moderator-specific?

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan Mod only.

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov ah, ok. thanks

Akixkisu

16:35

Has anybody tried out Nathair's Mischief, and what is your impression of it?

Thomas Markov

16:45

@G.Moylan Thank you, your submission has been forwarded to our review board for examination. If any further information is required you will be notified via comment. Thank you for doing business with Markov's Magical Internet Point Consortium.

Trish

@NautArch @ThomasMarkov I hope I meet your standards now

Thomas Markov

@Trish It's not our standards per se, rather standard guidance that the community has voted on and approved of.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov your interpretation of the standard. I had answered objectively, not subjectively.

Thomas Markov

What do you mean by that? The question itself is subjective.

Trish

Math scaling is objective. Combat engagement ranges are objective. Typical engagement ranges that RPGs focus on are objective data.

Thomas Markov

16:57

Right, that's not at all what "objective" means in the context of the citation guidance.

G. Moylan

@Trish Just because math is part of the answer the math can't explain why your answer is correct. Only rules citations and valid context can do that.

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