TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:00

There are games which take that pressure off, where in the devs have studied, distilled, and mechanized the salient elements of the media to be replicated so that the system does that work for the GM. D&D and other "you can do anything you want" systems like GURPS? They don't do that.

They may create the physical setpieces but they aren't designed to support pacing, character development, themes and motifs, they just tell the GMs it's our privilege and honor to do all that work ourselves.

HellSaint

@BESW btw, 5e has the background features that were supposed to give the players more agency on the world building. I haven't had any table using them. Ever. This makes me feel sad. haha

Thomas Markov

Seems this question is no longer a dupe.

MikeQ

To be fair, I suspect that not all my players were passive and entitled like that. Some were probably baffled by the idea they (as players) could affect the game world, outside of building their character and rolling dice.

Someone_Evil

00:16

@ThomasMarkov That was a quick answer :)

kviiri

The players don't come from a vacuum, though. Their idea of playing is shaped by the prevailing hobby culture, or often its "skin" and "shell", the first things new players know about the hobby and the first learnings they have when concretely starting

Eg. back when my group started playing, our exposure to the hobby was largely through greentext & similar after action reports of funny happenings in peoples' tables

BESW

@kviiri That's one reason I think it's so important to have games like Wanderhome and Balikbayan which smash those assumptions very quickly.

kviiri

Plus some ah-so-witty-quips like "roleplay, not rollplay"

BESW

It's harder to hold onto our "skin" and "shell" ideas if we're using a system which just doesn't let those ideas in.

kviiri

Dive in deep

BESW

00:22

If all you know about video games is from pop culture about Mario Bros, and then you pick up Tangled Tower or Subnautica, your preconceptions aren't going to be much of a problem because there's nothing for them to latch onto.

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil I may or may not have already written it in notepad.

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov I may or may not have guessed that because I may or may not have done exactly the same thing a couple of times

kviiri

@BESW But yeah, what I'm trying to say is, I think we shouldn't offload the responsibility to play games in the ways that work the best to them to the players themselves, at least in all cases. In other words, I don't buy the "if my players want narrative freedom, why are they so passive" and similar arguments

HellSaint

Holy macaroni there is someone playing a D&D campaign with 9 players at the same time

I wonder how that is going to work

(this dude right here)

Thomas Markov

@HellSaint that doesn’t sound fun to me.

HellSaint

00:25

That sounds like the hellish hell to me.

Thomas Markov

I hope party composition is pretty diverse.

Someone_Evil

@HellSaint Basically started there (as a player) and don't really want to back

HellSaint

How actually diverse can it be though? I don't think there are 9 mutually exclusive roles.

MikeQ

All monks. But with different hats.

Thomas Markov

Or alternatively, three sets of three kobolds in trench coats.

NautArch

00:26

@HellSaint I've got 8 right now.

BESW

@kviiri I'm talking about sharing and mutual support, not abdication.

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov That actually happened in a one-shot I ran

HellSaint

I recently joined a table with 5 players on it (I'm the sixth) and I already feel like it was impossible to make a character that was not going to compete in some meaningful role there

Thomas Markov

My best friend and I have made a pact that if our characters die in the same session we’re both making kobold artificers.

BESW

@HellSaint I had nine people for a 4e campaign, briefly.

HellSaint

00:27

@NautArch How?

kviiri

@BESW yeah, I see. I just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from

HellSaint

Do you split the party? Or do you actually get 8 players at the same time?

6 is by far my limit. Anything larger I can't handle :(

Someone_Evil

@HellSaint That's actually kinda solvable. The bigger problem is in spotlight and similar dynamics (at least to me)

NautArch

@HellSaint slowly :) But it's also a very flexible game. You can come and go whenever you want. Usually there is a stable core of 4 and the other 4 are touch and go. But some nights there are all 8.

HellSaint

Yeah the reason I like 6 is that the game day doesn't die because that one person went MIA

Bardic Wizard

00:29

I’m running a game through the library and I’ve got 7 players most of the time plus the librarian, and in a game I play in (almost the same group), there’s 8 players. The wizard is two rock gnomes in a trench coat (seriously).

HellSaint

@Someone_Evil Yeah, but for me the best way to get a spotlight is giving some particular task or something that is specific for a role which is played by specifically one character

With too many players I feel like the roles will overlap and it will be harder to actually give the spotlight to any specific person

Also as Naut mentioned I guess it runs too slowly haha

kviiri

For a group of eight players, I might try codifying spotlight to the point that there are one to three main characters of the "episode" and the rest will be supporting their drama

Thomas Markov

Is anyone aware of homberewed mechanics for kobolds in a trench coat?

kviiri

I've been toying around with the main/extra spotlight thing for a while but my group never really bought into it, or anything else I proposed :---)

Thomas Markov

Check this out

Someone_Evil

00:35

I guess related to previous discussion: giving up on trying to coordinate with vague "No I can't that day" is how I discovered playing with just 3 players is actually kinda great

Thomas Markov

I really feel for that guy.

BESW

I kinda want to explore adding the Watcher role to more "traditional" gameplay as a way to expand player rosters.

kviiri

Now to sleep

It's many o'clock

BESW

(Watcher is a L*vecraftesque role for players who don't have primary GM responsibilities or a player character, but instead jump in to add setting details to flesh out the world, and play NPCs as needed.)

HellSaint

@Someone_Evil but then you need a group of 4-5 people so you actually get 3 after one or two can't that day, right? :P

Thomas Markov

00:49

"My DM insists on the combat being 10 seconds per turn and the round time to be the sum of all turn times (so a minute for 6 participants, for example). I am aware that this is not how turn/round time normally works." I wouldnt touch this game with a ten foot poll.

Bardic Wizard

^^

Thomas Markov

01:01

@HellSaint I like how both our answers used increasingly strong language in edits as we realized how terrible the idea really was

HellSaint

Yeah.............

I mean, it's not that I realized how terrible the idea is

It's that I realized how terrible the reason is.

Thomas Markov

Id be too worried about what other bright ideas that dm might come up with to even think about playing with them.

HellSaint

I knew it was on my top 5 worst house-rules ever from the moment I read it.

Thomas Markov

@HellSaint terrible enough it almost makes you angry, right?

HellSaint

But I was not expecting it to be in the top 5 worst REASONS for a top 5 worst idea.

Like, hey, I don't know how to balance my monsters, so I will f*** up the entire game in order to make that one monster "balanced"

Oh, all the other 3000 encounters you will have using this dumb rule in the meantime? Eh, don't care.

Thomas Markov

01:05

@HellSaint Im not smart enough to be dumb enough to figure out what that reasoning could possibly mean

BESW

Can I switch the subject away from bashing a GM we don't know?

Is there a way to set up a Windows computer's color profiles so you can swap between profiles fast and easy?

HellSaint

@BESW Sorry but that was too much for my self-control. I controlled myself when writing the answer, had to vent on chat

Thomas Markov

lol you could cast Tiny Hut mid combat

HellSaint

@BESW I believe there are programs to do that

@ThomasMarkov yeap that was my first thought, but since OP is a Warlock, I didn't mention it because I don't think they can cast it

Thomas Markov

@HellSaint Magic circle would be totally busted.

HellSaint

01:08

@BESW But I don't think there is any inherent way to do that in Windows itself

Not one that is fast and easy at least

BESW

If anybody can point me to a program to help, especially a free/cheap one, that'd be really awesome.

I've got a friend who needs it for accessibility reasons but I'm so far out of the Windows experience I don't even know what I'm looking at.

Thomas Markov

@BESW have they checked the accessbility features of windows, there are some options for color and contrast that may help

BESW

Yeah, but from what I can tell those are buried in the systems preferences and not designed to be easily switched out on the fly.

But like, if you're playing a video game where some levels are only visible with one color profile and other levels require another color profile...

The accessibility features assume you're gonna settle on one color profile that works for everything and that's just not how my friend's eyeballs work.

HellSaint

01:24

@BESW I see. That's usually designed in the game itself tbh :(

BESW

It's not just games, it happens when they're watching films too. So, yanno. A global monitor calibration tool is the one-size-fits-all solution.

Shalvenay

01:46

@BESW that's really ugly -- I don't know of any sort of offtheshelf solution. were I in there shoes, I'd probably write something in Python that used the same APIs/interfaces as the existing color profile control panel, but was set up for on-the-fly switching?

also: I wonder if the Hitchcockian approach to horror could be adapted to the tabletop context? (I'm trying to think of "what'd be good alternatives to L*vecraft as a baseline to build on?")

BESW

I'm gonna look at Trophy, it seems to be a good engine from everything I've heard.

But also, like. Cthulhu Dark despite the name, is actually better at Jaws-type horror.

Hot RPG Questions

02:07

7

Q: How do you determine what action belongs to who in a modernist GM-based game?

Lets say we have a game. The group playing the game accepts the following modernist1 conventions: GMs control the in-game world, except the PCs. They have final say over what happens (and has happened!) in the game world. Players should accept and respect this as a part of agreeing to play at t...

Shalvenay

@BESW huh, interesting

@BESW yeah, that's probably a better use of the system

BESW

Though I still think the tension mechanic in CD should be called Fear.

Shalvenay

@BESW sounds like a simple enough hack :)

hey there @linksassin, how're things going?

linksassin

@Shalvenay G'day. Alright, yourself?

BESW

VERIFIED LARP by Riley Rethal is a game about being a verified twitter account on 15 July 2020. (twitter link)

Axoren

02:12

5e Hobgoblin Wizard (Proficiency in Greatsword), Great Weapon Master, Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade

Shalvenay

@linksassin fine here, maybe we can talk a bit more about your bladesinger experience this weekend? I'm kinda curious as to your char's background and how they've turned out so far in RP

linksassin

@HellSaint I'm not sure that long casting time for spells wouldn't be reduced with that terrible house rule. Turns occur consecutively, does casting a 1 minute spell take 1 minute total or 1 minute of your turns? So still 6 turns.

HellSaint

@linksassin Well, depends on how the DM chooses to rule, I guess

But it's not like you spend your turn doing stuff and then the remaining 54 seconds doing nothing

linksassin

@Shalvenay Haven't actually got to play her yet. I've just finished building her to replace my druid at the end of his arch. But happy to chat through the motivations.

Shalvenay

@linksassin ah

linksassin

02:14

@HellSaint I think that might be exactly what this DM is saying. Why else would turn durations add up?

Axoren

GWM Greatsword averages 20 at level 1 (40 if the first hit kills an enemy).

In the hands of a Wizard, they can also use SCAG cantrips to increase damage progression

In the hands of a Sorcerer, they can guarantee two attacks without having to kill something.

HellSaint

02:28

@Axoren assuming it hits... which may be a little hard with +0 to hit

@Axoren assuming it hits, which may be a little hard with -2 to hit

Adeptus

@HellSaint Why +0? Why -2?

HellSaint

GWM is -5 to hit, at 1st level, you have +2 proficiency and +3 at any attribute, at most (especially playing as a variant human, which is the only way to get GWM at 1st level), so +0

playing as a wizard or a sorcerer, you don't have proficiency with the Greatsword, so you don't get the proficiency bonus, so -2

Axoren

@HellSaint Use a Familiar for Advantage.

Find Familiar (Owl), Bonus Action Help Action (flies there and back safely because flyby), SCAG Cantrip action

HellSaint

Help action gives advantage for the next attack being made against the enemy. Unless all your allies don't attack, or your familiar is just above you in the initiative order, that's not consistent at all.

Axoren

You can bonus action before your main action.

HellSaint

02:36

In Combat, it rolls its own Initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't Attack, but it can take other Actions as normal.

Axoren

Oh weird, Familiar is on it's own initiative now?

HellSaint

and with 1 HP, that familiar may not survive long against most enemies...

and with 1d6 hit dice, that wizard may not survive long either in melee range

Axoren

You're right, this is not an optimal build

You're better off focusing on being an Evocation wizard casting 25 damage Magic Missiles each turn

But the fact that Greatsword Wizard isn't too far from feasible is pretty great

HellSaint

I mean... with -2 to hit, it kinda is. Even with advantage that seems just... harsh

Playing that build seems like feeling frustrated a lot

Axoren

Hobgoblins are Proficient in your choice of two weapons

And get a bonus to INT* and CON

HellSaint

02:40

sure but then how are you getting GWM at level 1? :P

Axoren

You'd get it at Level 4 if you're gonna be a Wizard.

Human gets 20 at Level 1

At Level 5, a Wizard would have 2d6+1d8+2+10 which is about 23.5?

At a +5 or +0 to hit

They'd do an extra 4.5 damage if the target moves, and if they kill their target, they get a bonus action attack at 2d6+2 for about 9.

If they choose that bonus action attack to also be GWM, then it's 19

When the stars align, Flex Tape reference

HellSaint

I mean... Yeah... But I'm not sure why you would do that as a Wizard instead of basically anything else?

Axoren

Think of it like a Utility Spork. You could always have a Spoon and a Fork, but this one is special and it's yours.

Arcane Clerics with Magic Initiate for Shillelagh are better SCAGers than Wizards without spending resources. Sorcerers are better SCAGers because Quicken (BB and GFB) and Twin (BB) metamagics by spending resources.

Eldritch Knights are somehow worse with SCAG cantrips even though that should have been their jam.

At Level 8, Arcane Clerics w/ Shillelagh can have 20 WIS and deal 2d8+10 damage to two targets (Green-Flame Blade), 1d8+10 damage + 2d8+5 (on move) to one target (Booming Blade) or 2d6+5 to up to 8 targets (or up to 26 while flying) (Word of Radiance)

Yuuki

@HellSaint Because invisible Wobbuffet pre-evolutions.

HellSaint

@Yuuki I am more confused now. What does Wynaut have to do with something here? haha

Yuuki

02:55

@HellSaint "I don't see Wynaut".

Axoren

Badumtsss

HellSaint

geezz

I ran right into that one

deserved

Axoren

Man, if it weren't for how good Arcane Cleric was past 8 and how unlikely it is for a random group to go past 10, I'd join a random group just to play Arcane Cleric 8/Sorcerer X to see how much mileage just getting Quicken and Distant would get me as a Cantrip user

Quicken Green-Flame Blade would essentially be a Fighter with a Rapier hitting two people. Distant Word of Radiance would be like making a Greatsword attack against everyone within 10 ft.

And going Sorcerer could get you Draconic Toughness, +1 HP per level. Snagging the Tough feat would get you another +2 per

You could invest in Spells that are fairly stat independent on Sorcerer so that your CHA just needs to be high enough to multiclass.

Hot RPG Questions

03:44

3

Q: Can unseen servant trigger sneak attack with a rogue

Say a rogue is fighting an enemy, and either they or someone else has unseen servant and they sent it to engage that enemy. Can the rogue now use a sneak attack? Unseen servant is very clearly described as an entity that shouldn't be used or useful in combat, this seems to go against that idea. I...

dnd-5e rogue

Hot RPG Questions

07:24

2

Q: Can Unseen Servant be used for cover if carrying a large shield?

Does an Unseen Servant holding a shield (or other object within its weight allowance) and ordered to walk in front of you offer cover? If so, is it 1/2 cover or 3/4 cover?

dnd-5e spells cover

BESW

08:04

Wizards of the Coast is seeking applications for a Senior Manager of Diversity Equity & Inclusion.

Given their history, I think hiring an outside firm would be much more responsible and likelier to produce real lasting change instead of just turning the position into a revolving door of scapegoats.

The Quest Creator Resource (PDF link) is now released under an Open Creators License. Which is often just an optics thing, but check out the pink boxes--they're developer comments!

Shauntelle Benjamin wrote a twitter thread about what Wizards' DE&I senior manager will face and why there should be two senior managers instead of one.

AncientSwordRage

08:25

@BESW agreed

Hot RPG Questions

08:37

10

Q: Do 10 second turns/60 second rounds make spellcasters horrible?

My DM insists on the combat being 10 seconds per turn and the round time to be the sum of all turn times (so a minute for 6 participants, for example). I am aware that this is not how turn/round time normally works. This makes many spells with 1 minute durations like Hold Monster last at most a r...

dnd-5e combat balance homebrew spellcasting

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted username, blacklisted website in answer, potentially bad ip for hostname in answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer (185): Are there any melee alternatives to Power Word Kill? by Yogesh Sambare on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

AncientSwordRage

@BESW did you see my feedback on Lady Blackbird?

BESW

Yeah. It's your feelings rather than anything specific about the system or presentation, so there's not much I can say about it? Feelings are valid.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I should probably provide some derailed feedback then

BESW

Only if you want to. I was just suggesting it as a thing to look into based on what you were saying you like about other systems.

AncientSwordRage

08:53

@BESW I do want to, I think it would help me refine my motivation/initial ask (which I appreciate you responding to). Which in turn my help me know what I'm after more.

BESW

I really like Lady Blackbird's keys, the GM advice, and the way it uses character stats to do evocative worldbuilding which makes space for players to shape the world by filling in the details.

Keys are a mechanic I fully intend to yoink for my own games.

BESW

09:10

My big problem with LB is that it's got that same traditional power creep problem which limits its ability to sustain interest.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW Keys stood out to me as very good

they remind me of conditions from nWoD and there's something similar from MouseGuard as well I think

Conditions are more of a negative though, whereas keys can be positive

Initially I didn't like them as they didn't do anything explicitly mechanical in the entry, but they feed into the dice pool (right?)

BESW

They feed all progress. You get XP when you hit your key, which you can spend to refill your dice pool OR add more phrases to your lists, OR buy keys or secrets.

And you get massively more XP for denying your key and removing it, which is how character progress happens.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW its good

I probably need to re-read it a few times to keep it in my head all at once

BESW

09:42

FAST: The Sequel to BOLT by Ajey Pandey. This is a submission to The Sonic 2006 of RPGs Game Jam. It’s a joke game, not a real sequel. I do not recommend playing it.

What's So Cool About Cute Mythical Girls Dating Each Other? by Litza for the What's So Cool About Jam. This is a game about cute mythical girls dating each other and probably having sex, wings and tentacles and all. If you like monster girls and awkward flirting and adventure and magic with a very simple 2d6 dice mechanic, this game is for you!

AncientSwordRage

10:15

@BESW Ever since in nominae I've not gotten on with 2d6 systems

BESW

I have a want-to-love-but-hate relationship with most of them, myself.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW mmhmm

I forget what the clever thing about that dice system was, something about 1 being angelic and 6 being demonic?

But I find with fists full of dice, adding up the numbers ends up pooling too closely to the middle value

BESW

I really like dice curves that make outliers unusual, it's one of the big draws for Fate.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I like them to be uncommon, but not too rare

2d6 is too linear for me...

@BESW how does that work in fate?

BESW

AncientSwordRage

10:25

ooh yeah the ± thingy

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Doesn't In Nomine use three dice? I never played it, but I recall people mentioning '666 results'.

BESW

It makes even a +1 skill matter, and reinforces the idea that PCs are reasonably competent even outside their expertise.

Failures tend to be compelled more than rolled, which puts control in the players' hands.

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica There is a third die, but you don't combine it with the other two dice... I forget why/how

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage IIRC adding more dice still tends to increase the quadratic deviation.

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica but counting success is different to adding all dice up

@BESW I've not groked how that's more the case with ± dice than otherwise...?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

10:28

@AncientSwordRage Ah, actual pools with target-numbers-on-the-die. Those tend to have some complex functions of probability.

BESW

+1 on a 1d20 roll against a difficulty of 12. How often does the +1 change the outcome from failure to success?

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica yup thats why I say "Fist full of dice, yes. Adding up all the dice, no"

BESW

+1 on a 4dF roll against a difficulty of 1. How often does the +1 change the outcome from failure to success?

AncientSwordRage

@BESW intuitively I don't know, but maybe the fact that the 4dF pools nearer the average makes the +1 more impactful?

BESW

Yeah. You're gonna roll 0 about 23% of the time, compared to rolling 11 only 5% of the time on a d20.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

10:31

@AncientSwordRage You can use any dice-summing curve to produce a different level of impact from the PC skill range, by adjusting the skill and modifier ranges. The difference is that on a curve of {-4;+4}, the granularity is 1/9, so a +1 is more significant than on a granularity of 1/20 or 1/100.

BESW

AND if you get a higher result on Fate dice, you can get success with style, so your +1 can be useful even if you rolled success with the dice alone.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that sounds good

BESW

D&D doesn't give a fig about your modifiers if the dice gave you the win by chance alone.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I think this is why D&D lends itself to combat being "Just roll lots" not "Roll once to get something good with style"

BESW

Yes, but that only works in capped environments which D&D didn't have until 4e.

And brings its own set of problems, primarily boredom.

AncientSwordRage

10:35

@BESW plenty of people are happy with it

@BESW capped?

BESW

@AncientSwordRage I was happy with it until I realized what my alternatives were.

@AncientSwordRage Yeah. If there aren't ceilings and floors on both dice modifiers and difficulties, the d20's flat range overwhelms small numbers and is drowned by high numbers.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW true

I know they try and pitch it at 60% success

Thomas Markov

11:00

Pretty sure the accepted answer here is wrong.

17

A: What is the maximum number of Simulacra I can have?

This problem is easily circumvented once you have access to wish: Cast Simulacrum to create an exact copy of yourself (minus one 7th level spell slot). Tell Simulacrum-1 (Sim-1) to cast wish to make a simulacrum of you (does not require materials). Sim-2 has been created. Tell Sim-2 to cast wis...

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov go on

Someone_Evil

Wrong in the sense of staring much at the rules, or in the sense of being accepted at the table?

AncientSwordRage

11:17

@ThomasMarkov good answer on my cover Q

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil How do the sims have 9th level slots?

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov Because the caster has them? And hasn't used it?

Thomas Markov

Sim-1 casts wish using a 9th level slot.

Sim-2 doesn’t have a 9th level slot.

Someone_Evil

To cast simulacrum on the original caster (it's not a self spell)

Thomas Markov

Don’t mind me, I’m just doin the big dumb.

AncientSwordRage

11:24

@ThomasMarkov it's easy to dumb

its why we need to be kind :)

Someone_Evil

No worries. My guess is these spells are mostly used for theory-crafting purposes anyway, so being unfamiliar with some of their details are a-ok

Shing

11:54

hey guys

BESW

[wave]

Shing

I am thinking about how to rise the abilities cap with my DM

I feel it is unbalanced for a wizard, since it has only and solely one important ability - int

while paladin has str, cha, and even con as a frontline figther

MikeQ

Is this D&D 5e?

Shing

yes

so I think it is a bit unbalanced for a wizard.

Rubiksmoose

What exactly do you mean by ability cap here?

Shing

11:56

20

no more than 20

Rubiksmoose

OK just checking

MikeQ

What's your concern? Are you playing the wizard and want more than 20 Int?

Shing

yeah, kind of.

Rubiksmoose

Well there are ways to do that actually.

Shing

having checked with a few magical items, I think solely rising cap by 2 ~ effective some "rare" magical item

So I think having this before lvl 10 is not fair

Rubiksmoose

11:57

But they all rely on magic items or boons IIRC.

Shing

my background story is a devil physically living in my heart

Rubiksmoose

@Shing Sidenote: investing in CON is really never a bad idea. Helps your concentration and HP.

Shing

so I think maybe I and DM can come to agreement that around lvl 10, if I play the card right, int rising cap by 2 as some sort of reward

BESW

D&D, despite appearances, isn't very balanceable. It's got too many moving parts written by too many different people with too little editorial oversight and no playtest budget. And just looking at stat spreads leaves out the fact that the wizard is one of the classes with the most flexible feature access in the game--which is a major advantage but not really reducible to numerical values.

Shing

@Rubiksmoose already 14, I think that's enough?

Rubiksmoose

11:59

Isn't being SAD considered an advantage already though?

AncientSwordRage

@Shing the higher the better

MikeQ

Yeah, being single attribute dependent actually biases the balance in favor of the wizard. They only need one really good stat, and you get to use it for most of their features. Whereas, say, the paladin needs to divide their resources among multiple stats.

AncientSwordRage

the same with dex for AC and some other skills

Rubiksmoose

I think a major downside to being a paladin is that you really can't get any of your abilities that high that early because you have to spread that investment around. The fact that you can already have 20 as a wizard at level 10 is actually an advantage of you choosing a wizard.

BESW

The basic premise of the wizard is to use their ability to ignore other stats, to get access to spells which compensate for their lower stats in exactly whatever way they happen to need at the time.

Shing

12:03

@Rubiksmoose I do not disagree with you, but many feats are physical ones.... only few of them related to magic.

MikeQ

In previous editions, without the (attempted) balance via ability score caps, wizards could just boost their Int to 20-30 range. Each boost to Int would then translate to a boost to everything they do.

Rubiksmoose

@Shing I think what you are hitting here is not a balance issue. It is an issue where you feel like your character peaks early and you don't have much interest in increasing the rest of your stats going forward. Does this sound right?

BESW

@MikeQ Balance in D&D ultimately boils down to flexible access to options, and wizards tend to be the masters of that game.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Indeed. Especially at higher levels.

Shing

@Rubiksmoose kind of, say, str is totally useless to a wizard. Con (I think) is okay, but a wizard should never be even touched in the first place

BESW

12:05

@Shing What problem in your experience at the table are you trying to solve with a boost to Int?

Rubiksmoose

@Shing Should and won't be are two different things though ;-)

BESW

Can you describe the thing that's happening when you play which you want to fix?

What thing happened in your game that set you to thinking a solution is needed, and then you decided this is the solution?

Shing

@BESW my wizard has int 18 now, and many time I targeted enemies' weakest ability to "disable" them, and they all made successful save in just one or two turns.

so I think rising its int above 20 will make my controlling mage more successful

BESW

So you're feeling ineffective, that your spells aren't as influential on the outcome of combat as the actions of your fellow PCs?

Rubiksmoose

@Shing (to be clear we are just trying to narrow in on the issue to solve here, we aren't trying to push you in any particular direction. A lot of times when people ask how they can do something, the best advice we can give them is to tell them that doing that thing may not solve their issue)

Shing

12:14

not exactly

when I use the spell " Maximilian's earthen grasp" on a boss with str 8 (or even 6) , he made successful savings, in one turn, for twice. I was really expecting the spell could at least disable the boss for at least three turns. (since I got lucky to prepare this spell, and the boss is a tiny mage)

so I want this problem will never occur again by rising my int above 20.

or at least the odd for me to see it again be as low as possible

MikeQ

Theoretically that won't stop the problem from occurring again, since outcomes are decided by a d20.

2

BESW

Excellent, thank you, I think that’ll help the 5e experts provide actionable solutions.

MikeQ

Overall though it doesn't sound like there's a specific problem, it's just that you want your character to have bigger numbers, which I think most players would also want

AncientSwordRage

20

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10

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MikeQ

Still, there's nothing wrong with asking the DM to raise the ability score cap. You're the player and you're allowed to ask for things that make the game more enjoyable for you. The DM might say no. They might say yes, and raise the cap for everyone.

Shing

12:18

I have also concern about my character build. my character has int 18 with level 4 only.

MikeQ

18 in a primary casting stat is pretty good.

AncientSwordRage

@Shing does your GM allow you to take feats?

In theory you could get two feats over the next 8 levels, to get the maximum of 20, while still getting to 20 int

Shing

@AncientSwordRage yes. but I think most of the feats are physical. only few are helpful for a controlling mage.

Thomas Markov

I can look through the list and make some recs if you like

Shing

@ThomasMarkov sure! thanks

Thomas Markov

12:23

Keen Mind is a fun ferat

feat

Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You always know which way is north.
You always know the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset.
You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.

Wont make you better at combat though

For your next two ASIs, I would either take warcaster and +2 INT or take Keen Mind and Observant.

MikeQ

Observant's good. There are also some Int-boosting feats in Xanathar's guide. Of course the 2-feat route would mean waiting more time with < 20 Int (+4 modifier instead of +5).

Thomas Markov

Keen Mind + Observant would be fun to roleplay.

Keen Mind and Observant both give +1 INT

Carcer

I'm just going to pop in and recommend Resilient (Constitution) for wizard builds, constitution save ability is very valuable both for avoiding harmful effects and specifically for maintaining concentration

honestly better than warcaster for that purpose, since wizards are unlikely to want to be in positions where they have many opportunities to make opportunity attacks

MikeQ

"I cast Punch"

AncientSwordRage

@Shing some of the Feats that boost int have racial pre-requisites

BESW

12:30

Carcer

@MikeQ I believe the meme is "I CAST FIST"

Rubiksmoose

@Shing Don't forget War Caster as a general feat that is often good for a Wizard to take

BESW

@Carcer I'm not gonna play jeff with that one.

MikeQ

@Carcer I only have access to discount off-brand memes.

Carcer

Rubiksmoose

12:32

@MikeQ I dunno. there's nothing wrong with asking, but as a DM I'd be pretty wary about granting such a request. Bounded accuracy and all that jazz. Everyone wants higher numbers, that's just the way the game works.

Shing

@ThomasMarkov arcane eye spying others' spell books, and copy them? lol

Someone_Evil

5e doesn't generally want ab mods to go too high. At higher levels your proficiency bonus becomes significant, and a spell save DC ~18 can start trivializing encounters because a big scare monster may still have a +0 in some of its saving throws

kviiri

@Shing Hi, I don't play DnD 5e anymore but my experience would suggest that if your problem is with spells requiring saves wearing out quicker than you'd like, with a homebrew solution I'd try to tackle that directly rather than increasing your cap

NautArch

o/

howdy howdy

Someone_Evil

You don't need a very high DC for hold person to do a lot, and I think if you're looking to do controll-y stuff you need to consider the spells, max's earthen grasp also does a chuck of damage, so only a couple turns of restrained seems fair

NautArch

12:40

@Shing While control/save spells are a lot of fun, it does put the power of their effectiveness in someone else's hands (they get to make the save). THe modifiers you can stack to make that 'harder' are more limiting than your ability to add modifiers to an attack roll.

You're basically trading more power (in many instances) for less chance of something going well.

Thomas Markov

A single turn of hold person is HUGE

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov If someone is in range and able to do something with it.

And if they miss...

Thomas Markov

@NautArch even if no one is around to hit the held person, a single turn lost can swing things in your favor based on action economy alone.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov Very true!

Someone_Evil

Hold person also upcasts quite well. Take out 4 enemy combatants for a few turns with a 5th level slot? Thank you very much. It is conditional on them being humanoids though, but that's gonna happen often enough

Thomas Markov

12:50

We had a situation where we were setting up for a fight against a powerful warforged boss, but my DM had given us an achilles heel for the boss - a disk of sorts we could insert into a slot on the bosses head that would shut him down. DM expected us to have a hard time pinning him down and succeeding on the strength checks to get the disk in his head.

NautArch

For me, I always have to make a call depending on where I am in initiative order. I get that it can remove an action, but for the cost I really want some damage, too.

AncientSwordRage

@Shing Is it possible the GM deliberately passed the save, so that the boss would be more of a challenge?

Thomas Markov

And then I rolled high initiaitve and succeeded on hold person my first turn.

Our paladin walked up to the boss and shut him down. Poor dude never had a chance.

@NautArch Situationally, auto crits by allies will often make up for the damage you didnt deal

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov Yes, but the spell could easily drop before that happens.

But that's with any of the Save or Suck options, too.

They're powerful, but balanced by generally shorter lifetimes.

Thomas Markov

Bane is such a good spell for this.

Rubiksmoose

12:54

@AncientSwordRage I admit I was wondering that as well. Was going to ask if they do open rolls but didn't want to derail the current direction we were taking in the conversation at the moment.

Thomas Markov

If youve got a buddy that can bane them for you./

NautArch

Yup, that'll help. But then they have to have failed that save, too. :)

BUtyes, the more things you can do to ensure failure, the better. Having a divination wizard around can really boost those spells.

But in general, it's a risk.

And I've generlly found DC-based actions to be riskier than attack-based actions.

AncientSwordRage

@Rubiksmoose Probably fine to ask now

Thomas Markov

@NautArch and also rewardier.

If riskier is a word, I want rewardier to be one too.

NautArch

That's the point and the frustration from @shing. THey're disappointed when it doesn't work out. But that's because they're going with something that has that type of response.

Rubiksmoose

12:56

@AncientSwordRage oh for sure.

NautArch

You want the big stuff? Cool, but be prepared for it not to work as well.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch Maybe the advice is to pick up spells that have damage on a save?

NautArch

@AncientSwordRage Then you're not swinging hard for the big stuff.

Thomas Markov

@Shing My advice would be to not worry about your stuff not working out once. There will be times where your enemies roll poorly and you shutdown everything.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch true shrug

NautArch

12:58

But yes, if they want less risk, then they need to focus on other types of spells.

Or accept the risk.

Thomas Markov

The first combat after I took the sharpshooter feat, I rolled like I had loaded dice.

DM decided sharpshooter was totally busted.

I said "give it time, it will balance itself".

NautArch

You can balance out Sharpshooter with magic weapons and bless :)

That's what I did with GWM.

My paladin usually had bless going to help remove the -5 and later tiers I had a +3 weapon.

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