TRPG General Chat

Hot RPG Questions

00:34

5

Q: Can the Clockwork Amulet be used for all actions that require an attack? (melee, ranged, spells, etc)

Can the Clockwork Amulet be used for all actions that require an attack? Can it be used for melee, ranged attacks, spells that cause damage, any monster attack? Because for me it is not obvious, for example, (from the lore side) that the Mechanus will affect attacking spells that cause damage.

Shalvenay

hey there @linksassin, how're things going?

linksassin

@Shalvenay Alright. Back at work after a long weekend.

Shalvenay

00:50

@linksassin ah. doing OK here.

linksassin

@Shalvenay Good to hear.

nitsua60

01:06

@Shalvenay hey-ooh!

@V2Blast tyvm

KorvinStarmast

@GcL Hang on, I think we went with a minor one.

At level 13: Necrotic damage heals the wearer. While attuned to the artifact, you can’t smell but we were looking at one of the madness effects, but we were thinking that it needs to be sort of like "can't be removed so long as one stays attuned* (They are short term)

Shalvenay

hey there @KorvinStarmast and @nitsua60, how're you both doing?

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay hullo shal

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast mind if I ping you on Discord actually? got a link I want to drop there for you

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay ok, cool - I am on discord

NautArch

01:15

@KorvinStarmast I'm kind of a sucker for this, but what about a wild magic surge.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch oh, neat idea, I'll run it past my bro

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast and that ad&d one is a lot of fun.

Glazius

03:03

Is there a way to rename existing tags? I'd like to rename this one to include more of the game system so it doesn't sound like a game term. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/masks

Ah, only moderators.

Okay!

gszavae

@Glazius Out of interest, is it a big problem? Have there been many questions tagged as masks when they are just talking about face accessories?

Glazius

@gszavae No, but we did have someone who had no idea it referred to a game system at all.

BESW

→ 1 message moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Sensitive subjects are shifted out of the main room so that people can choose to opt into them rather than be ambushed with the discussion as soon as they arrive here.

gszavae

03:20

@Glazius Ah I see. I wouldn't sweat it too much if it's not a problem, but it's good to be proactive :thumbsup:

linksassin

@Glazius I share your concern about system tags that don't look like systems. I think your suggestion is reasonable. I'll leave you meta open for a day or two in case someone has an objection (I doubt it). Then one of the mods can action it.

Hot RPG Questions

03:39

3

Q: Can a mule benefit from a Phantom Steed?

The Phantom Steed spell creates a "Large quasi-real, horselike creature" that can be ridden by "you or a creature you choose". "You decide the creature’s appearance" and it "uses the statistics for a riding horse." The rules for mounted combat state that "A willing creature that is at least one...

dnd-5e spells mount

The Oracle

2

Q: Rename the [masks] tag to [masks-a-new-generation]

Since we can't make a system tag look different, when possible we should probably expand system tags so they don't look like common game terms. "Masks: A New Generation" is the complete text used in the trade dress of all books I could find for the RPG called "Masks" for short in its own text. R...

feature-request tags rename-request

Xirema

So I decided to try out my Procedural Weapon Generator for tonight's session, since the party reached level 7 and they all wanted a shopping session.

I normally make them pay a tooth and a nail for magic items above Uncommon quality, but the Fighter and Barbarian decided to go for weapons of effective "Rare" quality purchased from a Doug Dimmadome expy.

Fighter ended up with a Hand Crossbow with these stats

And Barbarian ended up with a Greataxe with these stats

gszavae

04:00

Interesting, unusual to see a d15 and reach 10 on a greataxe, what kinds of rules do you use for your procedural generation?

Xirema

@gszavae ^Those, although there's a little more to it.

Each weapon is given an initial score using this table, by subtracting whatever value it has and then rounding up (I created that table last year when pondering this system): chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/51457642#51457642

(So weapons with negative scores have higher pools to work with)

Then, I add to the pool based on the target rarity of the item: 1 for Common, 2 for Uncommon, 4 for Rare, 6 for Very Rare, 8 for Legendary.

Then, until the pool is empty, I roll a d12, and then based on what I rolled, I roll a die large enough to encompass all the options for that category, and apply it, subtracting points from the pool based on what was rolled.

gszavae

So we have a sharpened enhanced elemental lashed heavy hand crossbow, and an accurate enhanced cleaving reach great axe? Very neat.

Xirema

04:22

@gszavae Technically, the Hand Crossbow is a Sharpened Enhanced Elemental Elemental-Lashed Heavy Hand Crossbow. =P

gszavae

Oh true ^^

I started making something similar before using the diablo prefix/suffix system. It didn't really fit the campaign at the time, but I think it's a fairly neat way to have understandable items :P

BESW

05:30

The Bundle for Racial Justice and Equality now has a search-by-title feature on the download list page.

3

Adeptus

06:49

I bought the bundle. I found one item I wanted, and the bundle cost less than just that one item! I've skimmed through the list and found a few more that sound interesting, and I'm sure I'll find more on a thorough look through. Plus it's for a good cause.

BESW

Creators are giving up billions of dollars for themselves in order to raise millions for the cause.

Adeptus

07:05

@BESW It's obviously something they're passionate about

(with good reason)

BESW

Yeah, I'm not saying they shouldn't or anything.

Just, I think it's important for us who are buying the bundle, to keep that in mind.

Adeptus

Agreed

BESW

And if we ever have the money to buy the games we're playing again, at full price, that's a thing to seriously consider.

gszavae

@BESW While that's an excellent sentiment, and there's no denying that the donations from creators are what drives donations from consumers, and this is just a side note, but keep in mind itch.io probably isn't pulling in billions of dollars...

Nzall

09:28

I'm trying to find information about Point Buy for D&D 5e on D&D Beyond, but I can't find it

Reason I'm asking is because I'm reading the article on rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/monk, and I might simply be counting poorly, but I get the impression that you get less points than in 3.5e

I think

kviiri

dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/…

Nzall

Didn't you get 32 points in 3.5e with all stats starting at 8?

oh wait, so 15 is simply the highest you can go using Point Buy

kviiri

Yep

Before racial modifiers, though, so a high stat at 17 is quite common

Nzall

I see

Pretty much the only D&D I played so far 3.5e in certain videogame settings, like Neverwinter Nights, where you got 32 points for point buy and thus could get 16X2 before racials

kviiri

I have no idea how closely their chargen matches that of 5e or of 3.5e for that matter

Nzall

09:37

I understand. However, did point buy in 3.0 and 3.5 vanilla also use 32 points?

or did it use less?

kviiri

No idea, I never played those two

Nzall

Hang on, 5e level up ability improvements are +2?

kviiri

@Nzall Yeah. +1 to two ability scores or +2 to one score, up to a maximum of 20 in one score.

An optional rule allows taking a feat instead. Many feats are +1 to a given ability score plus some added benefit.

Pierre Cathé

THE POWER !!!

I just cast the deciding vote to reopen a question

UNLIMITED POWER

So that's what the dark side feels like

Hi everyone

kviiri

@PierreCathé Salut! o/

Pierre Cathé

09:46

Salut kviiri

Ça fait longtemps

kviiri

@Nzall 5e and, by what I know of 3.5e and 3e, also follow a markedly different philosophy on how the numbers should increase. 5e follows a principle called "bounded accuracy" which means that ability checks and attack rolls are expected to scale much less in terms of level than in earlier editions

@PierreCathé Vraiment!

Nzall

@kviiri Okay. 1 final question that I'm not entirely sure how to deal with: the guide I just linked says CHA is a Monk dump stat. Does that mean that if I want to play someone who who can both punch really well, but also talk his way out of most situations, a monk isn't the best option?

kviiri

This is pretty much the extent of my French, lol... except I can sing lengthy segments of Le Sire de Fisch-ton-kan thanks to it being on the Kaiserreich soundtrack

Nzall

Would that be something I could ask on the main site?

Pierre Cathé

@kviiri Hey that's sufficient for our short internet interactions

kviiri

09:49

@PierreCathé True x)

@Nzall I guess you could ask if charisma is, from a charop perspective, the least important stat for a monk

Pierre Cathé

@Nzall Depending on your group playstyle, your ability to talk your way out of situations may not be too closely related to your CHA stat

kviiri

In 5e, I'd consider Intelligence to be less important but it depends a bit on what you're doing.

Nzall

@PierreCathé I see

Pierre Cathé

As a GM I also look at the quality of the arguments and call for CHA rolls when diplomacy/body language/ poker face are important

Well my RPG-appointed time has run out for today, lurk you later !

BESW

Ending soon: MIGIZI Support Bundle hosted by Speak the Sky. This is a charity co-op bundle raising money for MIGIZI, a Minneapolis org for Native American youth whose building was damaged in the spreading fires last week.

13 hours left on that bundle!

AncientSwordRage

10:04

rpg.stackexchange.com/q/116043/2788 has no warlock spells on it at all, which sucks (except for one archfey). Would it be worthwhile asking about the same/similar but focused on warlocks or is that potentially too niche?

BESW

No such thing as too niche.

LizWeir

@Nzall Re Charisma and monks: the way I'd interpret "CHA is a Monk dump stat" is that Monks have no particular need for Cha in their class features; putting some points into it isn't necessarily a disaster.

it's "you can safely dump this" more than "you shouldn't put points in this."

and monk is by far the best option for unarmed fighting, so it may well be the best for what you want to play even though you'll end up putting some points somewhere that the character optimisation folks wouldn't!

that said, I'd have a look at the Swashbuckler archetype for the Rogue if you're willing to consider an armed fighting style - you could play a knife-fighter for a somewhat similar feel, and Swashbuckler gives you access to excellent social skills (via the base rogue's good skill picks and Expertise) and uses Charisma for a couple of combat-relevant purposes.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I was thinking to niche to get attention, but it's a dnd-5e question so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

BESW

Ah. Heh.

I've asked much narrower questions on much less ubiquitous systems and gotten at least a look-in.

AncientSwordRage

10:30

@BESW I just noticed the op of that question is asking about warlock spells, but then says "I'm open to spells from another class"

BESW

Oof.

AncientSwordRage

> To clarify, I am a Warlock who wants to cast powerful disabling spells only when they have a high chance of success (so typically Wisdom has to be the weakened modifier). However, I am open to answers outside of that class,

Maybe bountying that question is smarter?

BESW

Sounds good to me.

Someone_Evil

I think the restriction of it being castable by a Warlock (without multiclassing presumably) is good enough for its own question

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil but that restriction (albeit loosely) exists on the original

Someone_Evil

10:35

@AncientSwordRage Except it explicitly says "I am open to answers outside of that class"

AncientSwordRage

True

BESW

I don't think a warlock-only question would be a dupe.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW posted

Nzall

@LizWeir ah, like that

BESW

10:51

In their last day/days: Kurt Potts' Birthday Bundles. Solo; Little; Fantasy.

AncientSwordRage

@LizWeir I find theres a huge disconnect between character optimisation folks and the non-optimisation folks

may just be my interpretation but little advice seems to compromise, I guess because there's not really a good compromise metric (e.g. you can't scientifically measure fun)

like RPGBOT and Dungeon Dudes giving the most optimised options, or other people saying "I made <unoptimized character choice>, and had a blast", so there's never conversation about "Here's how to make the most of 'bad' character choices"

kviiri

@AncientSwordRage I wouldn't say it's a huge disconnect, being a bit of both.

BESW

In my experience, the disconnect tends to be in rhetoric more than in practice.

AncientSwordRage

11:08

@BESW I think that hits the nail right between the eyes

@kviiri Doing a bit of both is not too hard, but I think the rhetoric around it ends up feeling polarised, even if it's not really the case

BESW

I've never met a self-proclaimed optimizer who claimed to be "measuring fun." Optimization is about players using system mastery to get control of their experience at the table, despite system options which are complex, unintuitive, and at the mercy of swingy randomization.
...and in my experience, avid "non-optimizers," if you will, have the exact same system-mastery-as-mitigator experience... but they put it in the hands of their GM.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW interesting perspective

BESW

And crucially, optimization as "breaking the system" by finding loopholes and generating ridiculous spotlight-stealing character combos, is much more of an armchair thought experiment thing. All the system-mastery experts I've played with, used their mastery to optimize for the table they were playing at: which means making sure you don't hog the spotlight by outperforming players with less mastery, as much as it means you make sure you can get the spotlight at least part of the time.

LizWeir

yeah, I'm not as in it as some because I don't play aaaall that much D&D, and I... often find the way more optimisation-focused communities talk very off-putting, but I'm very much into deciding what I want out of a character or game and building towards that

BESW

System mastery and optimization is a tool for managing expectations in a system where expectations can be hard to manage and "loss" can be very punishing.

LizWeir

11:16

often the things that I find offputting are about things that can be read as relating to that "what I want" part

kviiri

I have an innate tendency to try to play games well. Applies to tabletop RPGs too, especially when said games clearly tie one's agency into the optimized quantities.

BESW

Yeah, I'm much happier now in systems where "optimization" of that sort is not a thing which makes sense to talk about.

kviiri

But I don't think it's a fun way to play, so I prefer games that don't make me feel like I need to optimize.

2

So pretty much what BESW is describing, heh!

BESW

@kviiri I had a friend like that during the transition from D&D to Fate.

LizWeir

same, BESW, though I do like a tactical crunchfest on occasion. Still got a major soft spot for D&D4 as long as everyone at the table wants to play the thing that D&D 4 does!

BESW

11:18

He was the "I made a spreadsheet for damage under different combat conditions" kind of guy.

LizWeir

these days I'm more in the direction of turning that kind of thinking - "what behaviour does this support and not, what behaviour does it encourage and discourage?" into things like Masks - am starting to apply some of that to writing mechanics and games, too

kviiri

eg. one reasons I can't stand Elder Scrolls: Morrowind (which is a CRPG but the same principle applies there) is that it has a leveling system that tempts me to optimize, while making said optimization laborous and unfun.

LizWeir

oof, yeah - I've played a little morrowind and looked at that system and

all kinds of horrible incentives

BESW

@LizWeir 4e was definitely the D&D edition I had the best experience with. I'm mildly curious about 6.4e for that reason, but I'd have to find a palatable setting and adventure premise too.

kviiri

Savage Worlds does something like the same on tabletop. Different skill pick orders to reach the same outcome cost a different amount of points, which bugs me to no end before we've even started playing because I feel like I need to optimize even when I know it's just not worth it. And SW is, of the TRPGs I've played, the one that most intimiately couples a character's agency with stats.

LizWeir

11:20

"pick the skills you're specialised in, and then avoid using them so you can grind a bunch of other stuff and get a better level-up reward!"

it rewards exactly the opposite of what it's meant to reflect

kviiri

@LizWeir And remember to pick the stat that increases HP every time you level up because the benefit is cumulative

Nzall

To bring in my opinion: I like to optimize, but to an extent: I will rarely do things I don't enjoy in order to gain an advantage, and when I do end up doing them, there will usually be some sort of circumstance that negates the reason why I don't enjoy something

kviiri

This actually reminds me of a weird thought I had a few weeks back. I'm playing Final Fantasy IX for like the fourth time in my life, this time hoping NOT to get bogged down by the simple-yet-addictive Tetra Master minigame.

BESW

(But there's SO MANY awesome games out there which aren't D&D at all, I expect I'll never get around to trying to rehabilitate a premise that I'm not sure I want to rehabilitate.)

Nzall

To give a concrete example: in World of Warcraft, I don't do player vs Player combat as a normal activity, except in 2 circumstances: one was when there was an event where you could get PvP rewards for what's effectively PvE content, but in a PvP setting; And the other is where it's the easiest way for me right now to get the final 100th exalted reputation I need for a cool mount

kviiri

11:24

It's by Square. Released in 2000 IIRC. I can't help comparing it with a similar game by square, Chorno Trigger, because they have some similarities: namely, a large-ish cast of main characters that one can build their party of and swap at a "home base" style point.

In Chrono Trigger, much earlier game, they utilize what fans call "XP leak" – characters that are not in the active party gain levels along with the others. In FFIX, they don't. I wonder what is the thought process that lead them to drop this because the idea was... well, really good.

Nzall

@kviiri XP sharing between party members and backup members is amazing because it means you can take the characters you like without the risk of then needing a different character that's grossly underleveled

Joel Harmon

If you've ever thought "Gee, my world's mineral placement feels very ad hoc and random", then check out this oddly fascinating video

kviiri

@Nzall Aye. Feels really weird they tried that in Chrono Trigger, and then decided "...no, let's not do this again" in further installments with similarly huge gaps between active and passive party :D

BESW

@JoelHarmon Heh. I used to leverage my Geology 110 class to justify some of my more whimsical terrains.

LizWeir

I'm amused that I'm all-in on XP leak in any game except Pokemon, where I feel like training the weaker members of my team that I'm bringing in for a specific Gym is part of the point. ;-)

(it was ages before I discovered that a lot of my friends go through with one main team, rather than my approach of training up three or four type-weakness-appropriate 'mon for each gym)

BESW

11:33

@kviiri I apply XP leak to all of my games where that kind of XP exists (which isn't many recently).

kviiri

@LizWeir Interesting angle. I think Pokémon really does stress training the individual mons as a core part of the game mechanic, which changes things a lot.

Also, a Pokémon doesn't have character arcs or anything, unlike the protagonists of Chrono Trigger for example, who have fleshed-out personalities and personal side quests incentivizing their use.

Joel Harmon

@kviiri I recall FFVI had the build-the-party-of-four mechanic, without xp leak, so perhaps they were just being consistent with the brand?

LizWeir

right! I think that's why pokemon stands out for me, yeah

(I still remember the moment I realised it's completely a JRPG mechanically, just with a differently-framed recruitment mechanic)

Nzall

@LizWeir I mean, considering how there are like half a dozen Youtubers who make videos every week on how to beat a specific generation with a single unevolved pokemon, I'd say you don't really need any specific pokemon

Joel Harmon

@BESW I'm sure somebody has a geology blog covering more weird actual terrain than I've ever used in a game.

LizWeir

11:38

yeah, I just like the incentive to catch and train new critters :-)

BESW

@JoelHarmon Enjoy.

LizWeir

one related thing I do want to think about is XP for new characters in games like Masks, where Potential is one of the major incentive structures and a bit of a disparity between characters is OK

Nzall

True, but that's probably why Pokemon never really appealed to me as an RPG. Like, there's barely any player choice in how to build your mons, just choosing 4 moves and maybe equipping an item.

LizWeir

because I do feel like the gradient might still be enough that a fresh character joining a long-ish campaign feels a bit limited next to folks with six or seven advances

Nzall

I then much rather prefer RPGs where you have gear with awesome effects as well as deeper customization based on selecting additional powers

kviiri

11:40

I've played hardly any CRPGs outside JRPGs

I'm more of a strategy gamer, but I'd like to try Planescape: Torment at some point

"On some beautiful day" as I like to say

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri I've hardly played CRPGs outside of Baldur's Gate

Nzall

I play a lot of RPGs. They're my favorite genre alongside direct-control shooters

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri "In the fullness of time"

Nzall

@AncientSwordRage oooh. I've tried to get into Baldur's Gate multiple times, but I think the reason it doesn't quite appeal to me thus far is because I've never bothered to learn the magic system

kviiri

Although many of the games I play do have some RPG elements in them (and I'm not talking in the sense of oughties game fad, where "RPG elements" meant having character customization stats)

Nzall

11:42

which is a huge block for an RPG setting with such an exhaustive magic system

Like, it's heavily based on AD&D, so yeah

kviiri

Eg. like Crusader Kings is a strategy game, but also has strong RPG undertones. One plays a ruling noble, and has to manage a lot of personal stuff in addition to just governance.

BESW

Joel Harmon

@BESW Now I feel the odd compulsion to try to edit my original post today to fit that format.

AncientSwordRage

Latest revisions on the Common Mark update: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/348750/revisions

2

Nzall

However, I have played other CRPGs: Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 are the major ones. I've tried getting into Divinity Original Sin, Tyranny, Planescape Torment etc

AncientSwordRage

11:45

Physics.SE shows some issues, which they're adjusting for

Nzall

@AncientSwordRage to be fair, it was to be expected that there would be issues, especially with the custom development features like Mathjax

AncientSwordRage

11:57

@Nzall yup which is why they're taking it slowly

Nzall

@AncientSwordRage as they should

LizWeir

I bounced off PS:T a couple of times, but I made it through earlier this year

(partly due to talking to a friend who's a huge Planescape fan a lot while I was doing it!)

in a development that surprised absolutely nobody, least of all myself, I then got enormously invested in Fall-from-Grace as a character.

Someone_Evil

12:17

@LizWeir PS:T in this context is..?

BESW

Please Send: Thespians?

(it's Planescape: Torment)

LizWeir

sorry, yes, last reference was a bit further into scrollback than I thought

Miniman

@BESW Is it technically summoning if I was here the whole time, I just only interject with appropriate triggers?

BESW

@Miniman People call it summoning when I do that.

Miniman

@BESW Works for me!

Someone_Evil

12:57

Should we clarify the dnd-4e excerpt a touch? It currently claims to cover the Essentials line which is confusing with the "Essentials kit" being for 5e. (I'm not familiar with the products to come up with a good disambiguation myself)

Rubiksmoose

13:09

@Someone_Evil Picturesque Scenery: Themyscira

@Someone_Evil Probably not the worst idea? How would we go about clarifying it?

G. Moylan

you could include publication years. "... the Essentials line published from X to Y."

Since the "Essentials" name seems to come and go with various products. They used it for their newest sets of map tiles, too

Rubiksmoose

(Possum Sorcerer: Terrifying)

@G.Moylan That seems like a good way to do it.

G. Moylan

I'd change it to "between X and Y" but it seems pretty cut and dried that way

imo

Nzall

13:55

Ability checks is something different from ability saving throws, right?

LizWeir

if d&d 5e: yep

Someone_Evil

(D&D-5e:) Yup, similar in execution but distinct (something referring to one does not also mean the other)

LizWeir

there are three main kinds of roll-d20-and-add-some-things (unless I forgot one): ability checks, which are kind fairly generic and get used for a lot of things, including skill and tool use; saving throws; and attack rolls

Nzall

Okay, because of that question about warlocks disadvantage spells. There are some features from crating a pact that allow disadvantage for ability checks, but I assume those don't apply to saving throws

For Example, the Archfey allows you to learn Sleep at level 1

but yeah, the question also says they don't want pacts

Someone_Evil

@Nzall I also looked at eg. hex, and correct, it doesn't work

nitsua60

14:05

@linksassin I feel like "a day or two" is a little short. There's no urgent need to move on the issue, and good (well thought-out, researched, and written) meta answers often take half a week or a week to trickle in.

NautArch

Would it be considered 'railroading' to let players know the potential consequence of a decision about where to go (that they should be aware of?)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@NautArch No, why? They get to choose whether to accept the consequence by way of deciding where to go.

Nzall

@NautArch railroading is when you say they can go somewhere, but then you make a GM action that removes their agency and makes them go where you want them to go

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica OKay, just making sure :)

Nzall

Essentially, it's when you give them illusion of choice, but everything goes to the same location anyway

kviiri

14:13

@NautArch I wouldn't consider it so, I think awareness of consequence is the type of openness that is actually improving the players' agency :)

NautArch

the players have often made weird decisions about where they've wanted to go and I wanted to remind them should they go one way, they are most likely hitting a dead-end (that they know of)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

We do get into the topic of story-author agency (dissociative) vs. player-character agency (associative), but that's a different dichotomy.

kviiri

one of the reasons I like being a bit "too" open in my games is that it helps keep myself, as the GM, on my toes. I can't force story too much on them with classic tricks like "both roads ultimately lead to the same destination but you won't know that because you only get to take one"

Nzall

like, you give them the choice between going with the smuggler and going with the city watch to enter the noble district, but then they do exactly the same thing

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

But if it's a dead end that the Characters know of, then there is no dissociation either.

NautArch

14:15

This is a little different. The module I'm running has 9 different sectors inside, each with four zones. THe zones are separated unless you have a key. But you can move between zones/sectors as long as you have a key with access to one side.

The players got a key that will let them go into a new sector, but then they'll be stuck unless they happen to find a key to that area that they are about to go into.

But they did just find a key to another sector that gives them full access toa ll areas within that sector.

So i reminded them about the dead-end and the all-access key.

But it kinda feels like i'mpoushing them to that other area. Because I also am because I can finally give them some necessary lore if they go there :)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Reminders are OK, even good in many situations. They ensure players are aware of what makes sense for characters.

Mark Wells

This is weird and contrived enough that the usual concept of railroading may not even apply.

NautArch

@MarkWells FYI, this is Dead in Thay.

Mark Wells

@NautArch Yeah, it sounded familiar.

Peter Cooper Jr.

14:32

@NautArch I may be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you're not asking so much about railroading and player agency, so much as asking about if players remembering the knowledge that their characters already have is a skill that you should be testing.

Nzall

@NautArch A part of DMing is that you can play a little bit with the flow of the module and you're not necessarily required to give people the same information in the same locations or circumstances

Mark Wells

@NautArch Something to consider: if this is an exploration-oriented dungeon (sounds like it is) then discovering that some things are temporary dead ends adds a lot to the experience. It adds verisimilitude (this place is complicated, it's not arranged in a nice linear sequence) and the sense of accomplishment when you unblock the path (cool, we got the sector Z key, let's go back to sector Z and see what it leads to).

GcL

Has anyone here used foundryvtt.com to run a game?

KorvinStarmast

@Nzall a way to build your character to accomodate that is to add proficiency in Persuasion at the cost of some other skill proficiency. Proficiency bonus increases avery few levels. You can try anything, success or failure is modified by abiity score AND proficiency. If you are able to take the prodigy feat, you could have an 8 Cha (-1) with Double Proficiency (+4, +6, +8, +10, +12) in persuasion.

Nzall

@KorvinStarmast Can monks take proficiency in Persuasion?

LizWeir

14:49

In 5e, any class can get proficiency in any skill - you just need an appropriate Background.

NautArch

@Nzall In Dead in Thay, I think there are good reasons why things are where they are. And there are other benefits in the other areas without the lore.

LizWeir

Noble and Guild Artisan are the two printed options in the PHB for Persuasion, but there's also fairly explicit wording to the effect that coming up with your own background is supported.

How much of a concept are you working with?

uh, by which I mean, what do you have worked out so far?

NautArch

@MarkWells It's not so much an actual dead-end, but more of a temporary one until they find the necessary access key.

But in the other exploration, they have found helpful things to them, but not lore to help them solve the primary mission.

KorvinStarmast

15:04

@Nzall yes; either use the vHuman added proficiency, or pick a background that has persuasion as a proficiency

And if need be, you can come up with a custom background, and IME it is best to work with the DM on that.

@Nzall In our saltmarsh campaign, our tabaxi monk has the Noble background. She can be quite persuasive, or, just rip folks up with her claws. She's quite flexible.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast and i'm guessing happy with either solution?

Peter Cooper Jr.

@KorvinStarmast While "work with the DM" is always good advice, the standard rules on customizing a background are that you can pick any two skills you want instead of going for the ones the background says. It only says "work with your DM" if you want a background "feature" that's not one of the standard ones.

RedRiderX

15:27

@GcL I've just started using it as a DM and Player

It certainly has a steeper learning curve, but I find the features worth it.

GcL

15:56

@RedRiderX Are you running locally or on a remote machine? Do you like it? How have you found the experience of dice roiling with it?

RedRiderX

@GcL I'm using forge-vtt.com, because it wasn't worth my time to maintain another server.

And running locally always seemed like a very sub-par solution to me.

Like I said before, even with someone else hosting it, there is a steeper learning curve then something like Roll20.

For the GM as least

It would mostly work the same for the player

GcL

@RedRiderX I hear that. I'll take a look at that if getting a deployment that uses OAuth is too much of a pain.

@RedRiderX Never touched Roll20 after their deleting criticism on reddit and their own forum fiasco. What was the biggest hurdle to get over as a player?

NautArch

@RedRiderX and Roll20's learning curve is pretty steep.

KorvinStarmast

16:18

@PeterCooperJr. correct, but if a player doesn't work with the DM to make sure that the PC fits in the game world, the player is the problem. (In that same saltmarsh world I mentioned earlier, I had a player make a background that was IMO better than the ones WoTC had made for "Smuggler" so we went with the custom bg). It was a coolaborative effort, and that's the way to do it IME. Beyond that, making a world is harder than making a PC, right?

I'll see if I saved it somewhere easy, as I'd like to offer it to anyone else. Not sure where I have it.

RedRiderX

@NautArch Well I would describe Roll20's learning curve as gradual with a very high plateau.

I got by for a very long time as a GM with just a couple Roll20 concepts (like the pen tool and the art library)

NautArch

@RedRiderX It took me awhile to understand the GM interface and player interface.

And I see myself as pretty tech savvy.

but their UI is awful.

RedRiderX

While compared with Foundry, you need to spend time with each concept to get anything to show up on the screen.

@NautArch I can definitely agree with that.

And because Foundry apes that UI in a lot of ways, their UI is also rough in spots.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch yeah, it puts a bit of a strain on a DM who cannot devote a lot of time to tinkering with it. But I have been figuring things out a bit at a time.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast same. ANd I work with what I've got. But it's still really frustrating for a lot of it.

I just deal with it and move on. Players generally understand.

RedRiderX

16:27

@GcL RE: Dice rolling, the basics are there as far as a chat/roll log.

NautArch

And it doesn't help that Dead in Thay doesn't allow for a lot of DM prep.

RedRiderX

But the extensions really make the dice rolling shine.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I have to do yet another set of experiments with dynamic lighting to get character vision to do what I want it to do. Quite the mess. Die rolls and chat are good though.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Integrating Beyond20 with Roll20 (for dndbeyond rolling) has been a huge boon for me.

@KorvinStarmast I have yet to pay for that :P

RedRiderX

I installed a nice dice calculator + 3d dice, but that's just scratching the surface.

@NautArch Yep same, and it works just as well in Foundry.

KorvinStarmast

16:28

@NautArch Hmm, Someday, when I get thet time, I'll mess around with that. Daughter visiting this week, so no free time.

NautArch

@RedRiderX nice. that definitely simplifies things. But I've got some players who refuse to go digital with their sheets.

RedRiderX

@GcL I was a player in a new 5e campaign, and there was no Character building help to speak of.

You could drag a "class" into your sheet, but you still had to do all the work of figuring out what that meant for your stats

Maybe the DM mis-configured, but that was rough

NautArch

@RedRiderX I think the charactermancer is what does that. But you have to pay for all the content.

RedRiderX

I've always struggled with the 5e creation process, but stuff like DnDBeyond and CharacterMancer help so much.

@GcL Whoops just realized I'm not sure if you're asking for a Roll20 or Foundry Hurdle

The character thing was a Foundry hurdle

NautArch

oh, thought you were talking roll20

nevermind!

GcL

16:32

@RedRiderX Thanks

RedRiderX

But again it was a bunch of small features (spell shape templates, better dice calculator) and big features (better map management, better import options) that sold me.

If you haven't used any VTT Roll20 still has the lowest barrier to entry.

GcL

16:48

I used FantasyGrounds for a decade.... which was cumbersome to develop content for.

KorvinStarmast

17:38

OK, now that the Last Kingdom Season Four binge watching is over, I have gone back over the convoluted lineage of kings from Alfred to William the Conqueror. Head is spinning. But the chaos in England does reflect the very fluid situations among the Franks, Burgundians and various Germanic kingdoms during the same period.

Sort of like a Starcraft 8 player "all against all" thing.

GcL

@KorvinStarmast Big Game Hunters

KorvinStarmast

I think that mapping out that kind of relationship matrix will help one of my current D&D campaigns.

@GcL Been so long since I played that; my son and I tried to do a 2 versus 8 comps game that looks something like "surrounded, break out" but I forget the map name. We never quite got it done, but we were close one time when the internet connection went down.

We decided that I was better at the "turtle and slow grind" to the SE corner while he was better with the high risk attacks down and then left. I finally got my "speed build" down so that my Valkeryies wouldl decimate any air raids from the zergs. He had taken four bases when the game went down. I thought that would be the tipping point.

I also had mobile repair teams of SCV's to avoid missile launchers and tanks from being destroyed. Cheaper to repair than rebuild, eh?

Not Valks, Wraiths. Gaah, Valks are Protoss. Man, it's been forever.

RedRiderX

18:34

@GcL If you're familiar with Fantasy Grounds you'll probably be at home with Foundry. I haven't use it myself but from what I hear Foundry is halfway between FG and Roll20

GcL

@RedRiderX I'm going through Foundry currently. It's between eleventy to umpteen times better than FG. No more "obfuscated" xml to muck through. I don't even like JS, and this is pretty good.

RedRiderX

@GcL Hah even though I haven't used it I've seen a few FG data imports, they can be a pain.

When I get them from DMsGuild I just extract the maps and hope that someday Foundry has an importer.

Give their current processes, I'm certainly betting on Foundry getting that before Roll20

GcL

Trying to make maps for modules in FG was a huge time suck. I'm wiring up a Foundry dungeon generator for myself... because I love to draw crap on the fly when it's needed. Notes for the adventure are like "~400x400 stronghold, gold? sliver? sm. hoard." so if I don't use it, I didn't waste a hour making a map.

Rubiksmoose

19:07

Wow that underdark beasts question is really attracting more attention than I thought it would...

GcL

@Rubiksmoose Well that's too bad. I'll go add my downvotes.

Rubiksmoose

hah! Go right ahead, it's not mine ;-)

GcL

Well, shoot me a link to one of yours you want downvoted. Sheesh... people are so hard to please.

Rubiksmoose

XD

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GcL

21:44

@HotRPGQuestions I like the idea of a wizard who is on the road, a bit hungry, and totally willing to burn level 1 spells like that.

@Ben So I've got a new toy called FoundryVTT. I'm going to see about implementing your corruption systems as an add on to randomized pregen ~~scenes~~ dungeon levels

nitsua60

@GcL Most days... what else you going to use it for :shrugs:

GcL

@Ben which then basically gives us a 5e Diablo as a VTT... Need an artifact for Wirt's Leg though.

Someone_Evil

Now I like the idea of a wizard using sleep as more humane way of killing the game

GcL

@Someone_Evil I would expect firebolt or other cantrip as the kill method. Not sure how humane that is.

I kinda want to make an L1 spell that substitutes for a survival check to forage for food.

Gotta be something in the old AD&D material I can ~~rip off~~ port to 5e

Someone_Evil

Goodberry?

GcL

21:49

@Someone_Evil That's for those tree huggers.

Also, that always works and works for large number of people. I want the ivory tower arcane version of you forced a theorist to go camping and this is the level of power they're going to throw at something a fighter or barbarian would solve with a bit of patience and a loop of string.

Like mowing your lawn with a freakin' laser beam.

Someone_Evil

unseen servant, tell it to forage for you

GcL

Good one.

@Someone_Evil It's got what? 1 hp and the int of a wind up toy from the mid 90's? I expect only the finest dandelions from that foraging effort.

That's a good idea for an minor flawed magic item. It does unseen servant, but the servant is rather clumsy ... like they're some magic force that was originally meant for a different purpose but had to be retrained to do this magical task because the Weave tanked and it was the only job it could find at the time.

nitsua60

@GcL Create bonfire, summon woodland creature, Mordenkainen's sword, mage hand.

GcL

I would totally expect the bonfire. Conjure woodland creatures is also a tree hugger spell, and they already know not to eat the bright red berries the birds don't touch.

Mage hand would be useful for picking those mushrooms that were careless left around.

I imagine an archmage using Mordenkainen's Sword to trim hedges while the gardener they paid a whopping 2sp per day looks on in horror as they make a total hash of the job.

Someone_Evil

Conjure elemental: I want to see a gargoyle put to work harvesting roots and nuts

GcL

22:01

I'd probably award actual XP for that kind of shenanigans.

Peter Cooper Jr.

22:39

@GcL They've kept to a good extent the trying to distinguish between divine magic and arcane magic, and all the create/purify/etc. food & water is on the divine side of the line. Somehow arcane magic casters don't know how to use their magic for survival, only the divine casters have that figured out. *shrug*

BESW

@PeterCooperJr. ...that scans, honestly. Academica tends to be more invested in theory without praxis, faith-based organizations are historically really good at street-level praxis.

Someone_Evil

I like the idea of druids performing street magic

BESW

Not that I think D&D has ever understood social reality to the point where that would be an intentional comment.

Jadasc

@AncientSwordRage Heya. Is this still something you wanted my attention drawn to?

Peter Cooper Jr.

22:54

@BESW Totally fair assessments on all counts, there.

Honestly I'd like it if there were an easy way to reskin the cleric/religions/gods aspects of D&D, as I'm not thrilled bringing polytheism into gaming with my kids. (With other adults I'm not as bothered by it (though I still am a bit), as just a fiction thing of how that universe works, but with kids they're not always great at distinguishing fantasy from reality.)

BESW

I think it's pretty straightforward, since D&D "polytheism" is actually a monotheistic stereotype of polytheism.

It's nothing like any actual real-world polytheism, it's what an unimaginative monotheist would think polytheism is like if they never did any research.

Shalvenay

@BESW I think "multitheism" might be a better term for it even?

BESW

I think it's a reach to try and find any legitimate parallels to real-world faith structures in D&D's "we mashed together the pop culture we like best" setting.

Mark Wells

@Shalvenay If you want? There aren't any real religions that work like typical D&D religion, so using a term from the study of real religions is a poor fit.

(which I don't believe "multitheism" is)

Shalvenay

@BESW I do agree, at least with the way it's commonly interpreted/used

BESW

23:08

If I was going to monotheize D&D with minimal mechanical tinkering, I'd go for an approach based off Christianity: multiple sects that disagree about doctrine and practice, each with multiple religious orders that have their own praxis priorities.

Shalvenay

@BESW that's an interesting approach :) considering that the phenomenon of monotheistic religions breaking down along sectarian lines is not at all unique to Christianity

BESW

No, but the European Christian form of sect-and-order is the reference point the designers used for their "polytheism" because it's what they know (combined with demonizing other religions to justify exploitation or oppression of their people, of course).

The setting's religious systems would look very different if they'd been familiar with Islam or Hinduism or... anything.

A big part of it is that the basic unit of systematic faith in D&D is the cleric, and the cleric is based on a mashup of Catholic and Anglican priests in British horror films, and American cinematic representations of the Bible. By making those the religious touchstones underlying the entirety of D&D religious practice, they made a setting that is firmly coded as Christian.

Mark Wells

I find it interesting that D&D clerics are basically Christian saints, but D&D gods are also basically Christian saints.

Shalvenay

@BESW that is something I definitely can see

BESW

(This is why D&D gods are so opposed to each other; it's very much the evangelical/crusading Christian "God vs the Devil and other religions are the Devil" attitude.)

@MarkWells Yup! And that reflects the assimilation of local spiritual entities into the Catholic tradition. "Oh, Bríg? Sure, you can keep venerating her, just call her Saint Brigid now."

Again, I don't think D&D creators were drawing these parallels on purpose, it's just the background radiation of the religious norms they were copying.

So it's always a bit interesting to me when people are uncomfortable with D&D's polytheism, because to me it's just a Christian allegory, as Christian as Narnia.

The thing we can't easily excise from the D&D pantheon isn't the multiple gods (as you said, Mark, we can just distill them back down to saints and the leaders/founders of holy orders); it's the notion that different faiths must necessarily be in direct competition and trying to overthrow each other. And that's not a concept alien to monotheism; polytheistic faiths are traditionally much more comfortable with conflicting ideas existing alongside each other.

Mark Wells

23:36

@BESW We used that as a plot point in a campaign once: we had a crypto-cleric of Thor, who had been assimilated into the major monotheistic religion (as an angel), and the cleric could continue praying to angel-Thor and have all the status of being a legitimate priest, so long as she kept quiet about the "not originally an angel" part.

BESW

Banned From Argo, an rpg by Speak the Sky is a sci-fi parody role-playing of hapless havoc and reckless R&R by Space-Fleet's finest crew.

@MarkWells I had a paladin once who didn't know who the ethereally beautiful lady was that appeared in a vision and called him to fight injustice, and he didn't care. This bugged a lot of the people around him.

Mark Wells

@BESW That's kind of awesome.

BESW

He just swore "by the Lady" and that was fine by him.

And in all my D&D campaigns, Hypatia was canonized as a patron of librarians, scientists, and menstruation.

nitsua60

23:58

@GcL No, I meant all 4 for providing the meal. Make the fire, get the game, kill the game, hold the game over the fire.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 hey there

nitsua60

@Shalvenay hiya

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 how're things going?

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